EPTfirst of all, you don't need to expand like a mad man, keep 1-2 bases up and you should do just fine, make sure your infrastructure is keeping up to the base count. Drop your opponent everywhere and try to drag him thin. If you're in the lead you don't need to "punish" a mistake, just get further ahead by expanding/upgrades or build an expensive army. Going for the kill move is harder than one might think.Also deny bases.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 329
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
first of all, you don't need to expand like a mad man, keep 1-2 bases up and you should do just fine, make sure your infrastructure is keeping up to the base count. Drop your opponent everywhere and try to drag him thin. If you're in the lead you don't need to "punish" a mistake, just get further ahead by expanding/upgrades or build an expensive army. Going for the kill move is harder than one might think.Also deny bases. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On December 11 2014 06:27 NexT_SC2 wrote: So I feel like recently with all my games, I always deflect whatever my opponent does in early to mid game but never know how to punish their failed attempt. I don't lose scvs or important tech. I try to macro up and go for a big attack considering they've wasted resources on a failed attack. Then when I get to their base they're all turtled up on 2 bases with siege tanks/ nexus canon and I can't break them. I try to expand a lot because they're turtling but they just kill them with their maxed out army shortly after they finish. Then because I've invested so much in economy my army can't fight theirs and I just slowly starve/ lose. Is it partly because I underestimate myself at certain points in the game maybe or is my macro just bad? I don't feel like uploading replays but I can if it's needed. Thanks Are you overmaking workers perhaps? If you're not doing a style that involves constant trading / multipronged harass, you dont really want to make more than 66 workers (16 on minerals 6 on gas for 3 base). Even if you just overmake workers to ~75, you're missing out on 10 army supply which with the way big engagements work in SC2 can make you lose battles when you otherwise have a lead. Overmaking workers is just as bad as undermaking them. You also can't really attack into a defensive 2 base player, just take 1 more expand than them and don't let them expand. Keep your army on their side of the map pre-split so that, even if you for some reason lose the first engagement, you have time to remake your army before they get across the map. It's also really important to set up defensive positions and posture your army. Clear creep in TvZ, make defensive planetaries in TvZ / TvP, make turret rings and sensor towers in TvT. If you ever find yourself floating minerals and unable to engage on a map with lots of bases, start adding on orbital commands and sacrificing workers (as a general rule of thumb for me, I make ~8 Orbitals before I sacrifice any workers and usually sacrifice around 20). Always make sure you have sufficient infrastructure (like 13+ unit producing buildings in late gamewhen you have a bank). | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
TheDwf wrote: When scouting a Protoss you want to look at the following things: - Energy on Nexus. - Number of gases (and look how much gas he mined to know if he took them at the standard timings) + how many Probes are mining. - Number of Pylons (should be 3 shortly before your SCV has to leave). - Pylon and building placement (Pylons in a corner on in the back should make you suspicious). - His first units. The line about the number of pylons is incorrect. Assuming the protoss is msc expanding, his third pylon will most likely be started after his second gas and msc, which is at most slightly before the reaper arrives. You can't reliably spot that pylon. For instance, if he builds it behind his mineral line and you send the scv there to scout, your scv is probably dead. There's a minor typo in the second sentence ("on" instead of "or"). That aside, most good protosses place pylons on the edge of their base to spot floating proxy factories, just like terrans do to spot oracles, and it's also handy against drops later on. It's also common to place pylons where the reaper might attempt to sneak in, since it takes a while for your stalker to pop out, which means you can't perfectly zone out the reaper until then. I mean, yes, the protoss can drop a stargate in the corner of his base. That's actually common when you do go stargate. But it may also confuse players who don't realize it oftentimes means nothing besides "I want more vision inside my base" imo. This would be clearer if there was a more detailed explanation of these items, that is to say, a "spoiler note" for each of them. | ||
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On December 12 2014 01:53 vhapter wrote: As I protoss player, I've noticed something that's outdated in the OP. The line about the number of pylons is incorrect. Assuming the protoss is msc expanding, his third pylon will most likely be started after his second gas and msc, which is at most slightly before the reaper arrives. You can't reliably spot that pylon. For instance, if he builds it behind his mineral line and you send the scv there to scout, your scv is probably dead. There's a minor typo in the second sentence ("on" instead of "or"). That aside, most good protosses place pylons on the edge of their base to spot floating proxy factories, just like terrans do to spot oracles, and it's also handy against drops later on. It's also common to place pylons where the reaper might attempt to sneak in, since it takes a while for your stalker to pop out, which means you can't perfectly zone out the reaper until then. I mean, yes, the protoss can drop a stargate in the corner of his base. That's actually common when you do go stargate. But it may also confuse players who don't realize it oftentimes means nothing besides "I want more vision inside my base" imo. This would be clearer if there was a more detailed explanation of these items, that is to say, a "spoiler note" for each of them. The pylon count is not that important if there is only 1 gas (this almost always means that there will be a fast expand). You only need to panic against proxy stargate (very fast ebay or bunker at mineral line), the rest can basically be stopped with constant unit production and well placed bunkers. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
My point is that the underlined sentence in the op is misleading, especially for newcomers. Seeing a third pylon before a nexus does not indicate standard play at all - rather, it indicates potential aggression, since you don't need a third pylon even if you open 13 gate 13 gas and chrono boost your stalker + msc before expanding (herO did this a few times this year). | ||
SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 12 2014 06:03 vhapter wrote: Actually, you can go proxy stargate off of 1 gas if you open gas first. PartinG's done that once against Flash. But that's not what I was talking about. My point is that the underlined sentence in the op is misleading, especially for newcomers. Seeing a third pylon before a nexus does not indicate standard play at all - rather, it indicates potential aggression, since you don't need a third pylon even if you open 13 gate 13 gas and chrono boost your stalker + msc before expanding (herO did this a few times this year). 3rd Pylon indicates an expand after Stalker/Tech in case of double gas. 3rd Pylon In Base indicates there's no (fast) proxy. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On December 12 2014 06:15 SC2Toastie wrote: 3rd Pylon indicates an expand after Stalker/Tech in case of double gas. 3rd Pylon In Base indicates there's no (fast) proxy. The third pylon doesn't actually indicate an expansion - but rather, that the possible timing of an expansion, which is after a stalker + msc + tech if (and only if) the protoss intends to expand. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 12 2014 07:21 vhapter wrote: The third pylon doesn't actually indicate an expansion - but rather, that the possible timing of an expansion, which is after a stalker + msc + tech if (and only if) the protoss intends to expand. True. Rephrase: 3rd pylon before nexus indicates a non-optimal expansion timing and thus, probably at least some form of aggression. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 10 2014 10:54 Tzela wrote: TvT my old standby of cloak banshee has been dieing alot to hellion elevator. however im not really a fan of going for the elevator myself, and with the short rush distances of the current map pool 15 gas expand has a hard time holding the elevator as well. any tips to help make the cloak banshee more safe vs this? it always hits when the banshee is half across the map so my marines are easy pickins. On December 10 2014 14:57 KonanTenshi wrote: SCV scout and keep the banshee home incase you think an elevator will come. Try to have an SCV/marine/vision over the areas people most oftenly likes to elevator you. Basically, Vision, vision and even more vision. Try to place your marines UNDER the medivac so you can fight 4-6 marines vs 1 unit. You'll kill the units fast enough before the medivac starts to heal em.(depending on your marine count) with under the medivac I mean try to snipe as many units as possible while it unloads them. This. Read this and this (answer to Chambertin) for further info about the Banshee vs elevator scenario. On December 10 2014 18:07 Gwavajuice wrote: TheDwf, what you describe is something I have hard time doing myself, typically 50% of the time I will simply throw off the game  So a few questions :- is it something you can always do, or only when you have a massive economic lead? (like : is it really cost effective?) - if you take the replay of Westy (the game on akylon waste) would you have engaged directly up the natural ramp or would you have waited for him to go down in the open (and took the risk to give him time to catch up in army strength)? - You seem to say that stim is the last action you do, just before starting the kiting. I thougth that I had to stim as soon as possible, was I wrong all this time? thx 1. You need a massive economic lead, yes. What I described is not a wasteful maneuver by any means, even if it might end up being so with Diamond micro; but to give an estimation, if you hit the perfect scenario (regarding the engagement) you would drop 20-30 supply at most while your opponent would lose everything. 2. It's always better if you can bait/force Protoss to engage in your prepared concave, but in that case yes I would, as Protoss had his Templars clumped + no Cannons nearby. If Templars are spread you have to disable them with Ghosts before moving towards him. 3. Situational. If you stim first in the "method" I described you'll run into synchronization issues: your bio will run ahead and be engaged by Protoss' army before (some of the) EMPs hit, so some shots will be wasted on shields that will be depleted afterwards by said EMPs; a part of the Protoss army will also dodge some of the "pre-cast EMPs" because of the auto-aggro, and of course you'll run into the "have to micro everything at once" issue with bio and Ghosts (since you would have to recast some of the EMPs). But naturally, when Protoss jumps at you stimming must be your first reflex. On December 12 2014 01:53 vhapter wrote: As I protoss player, I've noticed something that's outdated in the OP. Yeah, it's because it was pasted from the WoL thread. I'll change it when I update the thread. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
 I'll probably end up asking some questions about ebay blocks later here, but probably not now since I'm drunk. lol >.< | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
I rarely go into the ultra late game vs P and each time it happens I m always a bit lost :D | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On December 14 2014 20:12 Gwavajuice wrote: Thx, TheDwf. I rarely go into the ultra late game vs P and each time it happens I m always a bit lost :D Economy management is so key versus a late game Protoss player. Denying his fourth base often outright wins you the game, and if you're good at drop play you can make it so he's so poor that he only gets 1 max out against you before your production overruns him. Also, seriously, build Ghosts like TheDwf says. They are so incredible versus literally anything Protoss makes that isn't Colossi, Carriers, or Tempest, and for those three, you have Vikings. I killed a Protoss player with almost 100% Ghost army plus 15 Vikings yesterday - he had about 130 supply of Archon/Templar/Chargelot/Colossi and it just evaporated. | ||
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fruity.
England1711 Posts
On December 15 2014 02:27 Jazzman88 wrote: I killed a Protoss player with almost 100% Ghost army plus 15 Vikings yesterday - he had about 130 supply of Archon/Templar/Chargelot/Colossi and it just evaporated. I'd love to see a replay of this! Please don't think I'm calling you out here! As a Terran, the notion of protoss tears pleases me deeply!! Gwavajuice, Ghosts are your friend though, I blindly start getting them as early as reasonably possible in every Protoss match up (bad idea in higher leagues I guess). But the way I see it, almost any army composition they go for can be countered more easily with Ghosts, not to mention being able to uncloak observers or dark templars, which means one more mule.. Hard to hit observers with EMP though! And the sooner you start getting them, them more energy they'll have. One problem I realised in Protoss match ups was that I was just not getting enough Ghosts. More Ghosts = more fun for me!! I believe the correct number to get would be shit loads without sacrificing your overall armies composition. Also, if you bind your EMP key to the rapid fire hot key, it's so easy to just blanket their army in zero time. You do have to be somewhat careful adding your EMP hotkey to rapid fire though, as it will drain their energy in no time. Maybe the better players here will recommend you don't do this for that very reason. But for me it works a treat. Though I've managed to loose SC2 games when my opponent hasn't even turned on their computer yet.. Guess I'm saying different / better ways to use units as your skill increases. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
You either go for the mass drop style the Terrans in Hot6Cup employed, with 5 rax, 1 fact, 1 sp pumping out shit CONSTANTLY. You dump all his bases with medivacs and hope to kill him that way. Innovation, Bbyong, TY do this. The second is the very defensive and greedy style, getting a rapid fourth base and using basic drops to keep Protoss at home. Flash mostly plays this. The third is a very tech heavy style that rapidly gets double SP and Ghost on 3 bases and like as low as 5 rax. This style allows you to go head to head with Protoss in frontal engagements. Players like Taeja like doing this. The fourth is the Yolo SCV pull. I don't know if I've made the distinctions clear, but that's how TvP, stylistically, looks to me. I don't know if Downfall or any others have anything to add to it? Ciao! | ||
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gh0st
United States98 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
Banshee is very very rare, and especially out of fashion since Habitation Station rotated out of the map pool. Check out TLStrategy's guide to Bbyong's Gold base 1-1-1 for the most recent high level examples, but be warned, it isn't high-percentage. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On November 23 2014 12:08 Pokebunny wrote: you don't need a bunker at the front right away vs 1 base oracle, I see most people get 2 turrets (1 in mineral line and 1 near ramp/production you only need a bunker finished around 7-7:30 if you haven't seen an expo yet (sometimes you won't be able to check). you should lift your natural cc if there's a possibility of allin also make sure you start your factory on time if you lift your natural cc or you will be trapped for way too long, 7 min factory at the latest other than that this is a good post I know it is considered unorthodox, but what do you think of the strategy of getting a 4th rax before a factory to pump out ridiculous amounts of bio ala MarineKing recently when defending an obvious Protoss all-in? | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On December 16 2014 13:07 Grizvok wrote: I know it is considered unorthodox, but what do you think of the strategy of getting a 4th rax before a factory to pump out ridiculous amounts of bio ala MarineKing recently when defending an obvious Protoss all-in? It depends on the allin and how dedicated it is. For example I wouldn't recommend this vs a blink build because a protoss can see your factory is so late / nonexistent and just expand and contain you if you lifted to your main. Vs an obviously dedicated allin that he has no chance of transitioning out of it can be good. | ||
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