EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 328
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
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Westy
England808 Posts
On December 09 2014 01:46 KonanTenshi wrote: Zealot archon dies to 4M with ghost support, also deny bases as often you can The only thing I didn't have was mines. But considering I was 6 bases to his 3, after snipping his fourth twice, and killing off 2 HT's to every 1 of my ghosts, and with 3/3 to his 3/3/0, you think I would be able to win at least one engagement. | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
How did you kite and how was your surrounding/concave, I haven't had time to check replay but all these questions are important. When I am up vs this comp I always got a hit squad to snipe zealots | ||
SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 09 2014 18:48 Westy wrote: The only thing I didn't have was mines. But considering I was 6 bases to his 3, after snipping his fourth twice, and killing off 2 HT's to every 1 of my ghosts, and with 3/3 to his 3/3/0, you think I would be able to win at least one engagement. I hate this mentality; I have ZBC to his XYZ guess I deserve to win huh! NO Micro is a factor. | ||
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Westy
England808 Posts
On December 09 2014 20:03 SC2Toastie wrote: I hate this mentality; I have ZBC to his XYZ guess I deserve to win huh! NO Micro is a factor. Okay... I guess you didn't watch the replay? I was completely out microing him. In fact, looking over it all now, the only reason I lost was because I Had ZBC when I should have had ZBCA (I was missing mines, which would have destroyed his zealots, with mines being a no micro unit). But thanks for the contribution I guess. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On December 09 2014 20:28 Westy wrote: Okay... I guess you didn't watch the replay? I was completely out microing him. In fact, looking over it all now, the only reason I lost was because I Had ZBC when I should have had ZBCA (I was missing mines, which would have destroyed his zealots, with mines being a no micro unit). But thanks for the contribution I guess. OK first of all you're a better player than me, so I m not criticizing you or anything, it's just I watched the replay and could see a lot of things that went wrong. - of course as other said mines would have helped, esp in the contain phase of the game (like from 15 min to 20 mins) but I think with the number of ghost you had it should have worked though. - there is no point in the game where you 6 bases vs 3, it's more like 2.5 bases vs 1.5 at most. There s a point in the game where you ahve a huge pop lead (like 170 vs 90 at 26:00) but you fail to kill him in that window and he can come back. After this, you're leading but not by a margin as huge as you seem to think... Thinking you totally dominated your opponent here would be a mistake. - you land good snipe and EMP, but you sacrifice a lot of your ghosts to do so, and as your just containing him the shields regen between each of you attacks. You pressure him but you don't do that much damage. EMP don't kill units, it just temporarily weakends them, if you don't have a big attack after it, it's not going to win you the game. - in the end at 29:55 your army composition is off : you have 17 vikings for 1 almost dead colo, you just have one ghost left, 4 almost dead medivacs with no energy, 20 marauders and 17 marines and all your units are in the yellow. he has 3 archons, 7 ghosts, the almost dead colo, 19 zealots, one immo and 4 stalkers. Your 3/2, he's 2/2. He pushes out, kill your army and break the contain. you should rewatch the game between 16 and 30 mins in slow motion, I m sure you ll get plenty of idea to be better next time. - After this you're still in the game but you keep doing the 2 same mistakes again and again : 1 - having plenty of vikings and not many medivacs when he has 0 colo, 2 -sacrificing bunches of ghosts to land EMP that are not that efficient. Btw you don't seem to EMP archons very often, is this a choice from you? -For instance at 36:00 you loose a bunch of ghost, and you're back with marau/marines and vikings angainst zealot HT and archons . - At 38:00 you throw your ghosts in vanguard again, they get rekt, you have useless vikings, he charges you and kill your army again. After this it's totally over, there s no way he can let you get back in game again... So in the end I m not good enough to tell exactly how you should have micro'ed your ghost (I also loose plenty of games like you did in this one) what I can tell you is you wasted them for the most part and you might want to do things differently. Also, stop viking production  Look at the numbers of ghosts killed vs number of HT/archons killed in the end of the game, ouch. It's a pain in the ass to loose like this, but you can learn a lot from it. Hope I helped a little. | ||
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fruity.
England1711 Posts
On December 09 2014 22:53 Gwavajuice wrote: - there is no point in the game where you 6 bases vs 3, it's more like 2.5 bases vs 1.5 at most. There s a point in the game where you ahve a huge pop lead (like 170 vs 90 at 26:00) but you fail to kill him in that window and he can come back. After this, you're leading but not by a margin as huge as you seem to think... Thinking you totally dominated your opponent here would be a mistake. Can I highlight this as maybe the most important from the many (good) Points you make. Everything after this is in a sense irrelevant. As this was the timing window to totally crush. But was missed - lack of scouting? | ||
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Julek
United States8 Posts
On December 09 2014 01:11 Westy wrote: Massive late game TvP problems http://drop.sc/390065 I gain massive leads during the mid game and early late game, but the HT Archon army just wins every engagement, no matter how good my snipes and EMPs. I take the fights better, but still have to back off. Then all it takes is one mistake by me and he gains a massive lead. Help? Didn't watch past 20 minutes because you lost by 15 minutes. - What massive lead did you gain early on? Your opening cost alot, didn't do alot, and only killed like 6 probes? Fix your opening, it made no sense whatsoever. - Gas at 13? Why? - +1 started at 13ish minutes? Why? - Double Rax + fact before CC? Why? - Didn't see a single drop have a mine in it. Mines are Protoss killers right now, why are you not using them in your drops? Honestly, every choice I saw you make for the first 15 minutes of the game were choices one would typically see from a Gold/Plat player. You need to go back to BO basics and work from there. Really, a good BO goes a long way. Advantages come and go as a game progresses. Part of the nature of having a good BO (and knowing what to do with it) is curving the advantage an opponent may have had at certain areas in the game - A good example would be opening Reaper/Helion in TvZ: Use Helions to curve the creep advantage of zerg, Edit: You need to understand that Terran is REALLY good at curving another race's advantages because it is such a harass-heavy race. All our harass units are dirt cheap (compared to the other races) and extremely good at what they were designed to do. 2 Helions inside a protoss base at 5 minutes into a game is deadly for protoss, especially if you can micro Helions. I hope you don't take this as an offense! I'm not very good at giving advice! @Everyone else: This thread helped me get to Master. However, now I feel that it is losing the kind of good advice that used to be so common here. Stop giving generic 'overall' advice. If you watch a replay, watch it. Don't just x4 through it and tell the player that they had a "HUGE ADVANTAGE MID GAME MANG Y DIDNT U SNIPE DA TEMPLARZ" lol | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 08 2014 02:21 goosejuice23 wrote: Something that a few P players have been doing to me lately that I've never really experienced before is 1 gate proxy. They chrono out a few zealots while getting cyber and ms core at home. Previously when this had been done to me I had wrongly assumed that it was 2 gate proxy and gone to their base only to have my reaper easily thwarted. What is the correct way to deal with this? I'm guessing I'm supposed to micro like crazy with reaper and scvs? Apologies if this has been answered somewhere before, I searched and couldn't find anything on it that wasn't from 2010. Edit: I should add that the gateway was not in my base, but the zealot slipped in before I could wall. If for some reason you could not complete the wall in time, then yes you have to rely on micro to avoid critical damage. Personal example below of such a scenario. On December 08 2014 08:24 LOcDowN wrote: Hey guys, I have limited mid-game & late-game knowledge for TvP. I have attached a replay and have a couple of questions: -templar archive completed @ time: 14:30 -how to determine the protoss opponent transitioned into templar archive from collosus play? what are the tales? i had no idea this game, i thought he was still pumping collosus -when should i pull scvs for an all-in attack? -how to control ghosts (and how to position army, scans, etc) vs protoss ball with templars? -how many more rax & cc's do i need when i'm on 4 bases? http://drop.sc/390039 1. Currently Protoss generally switch to Templar tech (Archons or Storm) after 3 or 5 Colossi. All kinds of transitions exist, so basically scans/drops are your best scouting tools. Low Stalker count/no Blink also hint at a Templar transition. On the contrary, no gas at third means Protoss commits to Colossi for a long time. 2. Depends on the initial build orders but ~13'30 to 14'30 in a "normal" game. You want to hit before Storm or 2-0-2. 3. Read "Q. What is the 'best' Terran composition in this matchup?" in the OP. For scans, you want to have vision of his army and ideally the surroundings of the area in which you want to attack so you can remove the possibility of Templar flanks (be very careful of blind spots). 4. You can stay on 8 rax. You can go up to 11-12 if you want, but lategame TvP is not won through superior speed of remax anyway. Orbitals/defensive PFs as money allows; the more the better, but balance your investments between your infrastructure and the quality of your army (Ghosts/Vikings). In your replay, I also noticed you never denied the Observer in your natural, so your opponent had full vision of your army and could play with complete peace of mind despite having no Observers in front of his base or in the airspace near his main. You want to look threatening even if you have no actual aggressive intent. On December 09 2014 01:11 Westy wrote: Massive late game TvP problems http://drop.sc/390065 I gain massive leads during the mid game and early late game, but the HT Archon army just wins every engagement, no matter how good my snipes and EMPs. I take the fights better, but still have to back off. Then all it takes is one mistake by me and he gains a massive lead. Help? Ah! Had not seen this build in use since Beastyqt vs elfi in April 2013; doesn't make us look younger. I don't know why you use it, and you may be aware of what I'm going to tell you, but in case you don't it I still say it: this build is bad. If you want something aggressive for early game TvP, I recommend you gas first or gas 13, possibly with fact/port proxied if you're into that; Marines/Mine + Hellions attack in both cases. Anyway, I'm not going to dwell at length on that point since you had a macro game afterwards. Your problem is less lategame TvP than "how to engage max Zealots/Archons/Immortals/Templars". Microing against this mix is really hard, especially when you don't have Mines, so you can first consider keeping your Factory at home in case you have to build them later in a game like this. Second, with the lead you had in the game—his economy was in tatters—you can actually take the time to build the money army (against no Colossi) of 20-25 Ghosts with a few Vikings (to dispose of Observers) and a dozen of Medivacs; rest MM with a stronger emphasis on Marines because of Immortals. Then you engage in the following way: - Scan his army; - Unleash everything—Marauders in front, Marines behind; - Cloak your Ghosts; - Spam EMPs in advance on his army (like 10-15 EMPs so virtually everything has no shields left); - Stim, retreat your bio (Ghosts stand if no Observer is around, otherwise you have to retreat them too) and start the hit & run. Even if he somehow holds the first wave, he'll lose so many Archons/Immortals than the next one will prevail. | ||
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Tzela
Canada48 Posts
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On December 10 2014 07:09 TheDwf wrote: Ah! Had not seen this build in use since Beastyqt vs elfi in April 2013; doesn't make us look younger. I don't know why you use it, and you may be aware of what I'm going to tell you, but in case you don't it I still say it: this build is bad. If you want something aggressive for early game TvP, I recommend you gas first or gas 13, possibly with fact/port proxied if you're into that; Marines/Mine + Hellions attack in both cases. Anyway, I'm not going to dwell at length on that point since you had a macro game afterwards. Your problem is less lategame TvP than "how to engage max Zealots/Archons/Immortals/Templars". Microing against this mix is really hard, especially when you don't have Mines, so you can first consider keeping your Factory at home in case you have to build them later in a game like this. Second, with the lead you had in the game—his economy was in tatters—you can actually take the time to build the money army (against no Colossi) of 20-25 Ghosts with a few Vikings (to dispose of Observers) and a dozen of Medivacs; rest MM with a stronger emphasis on Marines because of Immortals. Then you engage in the following way: - Scan his army; - Unleash everything—Marauders in front, Marines behind; - Cloak your Ghosts; - Spam EMPs in advance on his army (like 10-15 EMPs so virtually everything has no shields left); - Stim, retreat your bio (Ghosts stand if no Observer is around, otherwise you have to retreat them too) and start the hit & run. Even if he somehow holds the first wave, he'll lose so many Archons/Immortals than the next one will prevail. I'm definitely far closer to your level then TheDwf is (no offense to him), so I can offer advice as a not super-high-level player who probably struggles with similar things to you. I have frankly terrible ghost control and a lot of my games used to look like yours--I would get a lead, try to consolidate it by building ghosts after bio pressure failed, and then throw the game through really bad lategame engagements. My ghosts would do barely anything, and even if they did something, I was so bad at using them that they took all my attention and my bio micro went to shit (as yours seemed to as well, your kiting/splits etc. were off.) I honestly think that if you can't use ghosts adequately, you shouldn't use them at all (or learn to use them adequately but expect to lose games until then.) I find it a lot easier to play MMMM/viking where I can focus on microing bio, multitasking, focus fire, and other skills that I can develop across matchups. It's totally possible to play TvP without ever building ghosts, or if you do use ghosts, using them Polt-style where you never attack with them and only sit with them behind a planetary wall. If you're not good at it you don't have to do it, except as a last resort. And what's good is that playing this way feels stylistically and mechanically very much like how you might play in the other 2 matchups, assuming you play bio. | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
On December 10 2014 10:54 Tzela wrote: TvT my old standby of cloak banshee has been dieing alot to hellion elevator. however im not really a fan of going for the elevator myself, and with the short rush distances of the current map pool 15 gas expand has a hard time holding the elevator as well. any tips to help make the cloak banshee more safe vs this? it always hits when the banshee is half across the map so my marines are easy pickins. SCV scout and keep the banshee home incase you think an elevator will come. Try to have an SCV/marine/vision over the areas people most oftenly likes to elevator you. Basically, Vision, vision and even more vision. Try to place your marines UNDER the medivac so you can fight 4-6 marines vs 1 unit. You'll kill the units fast enough before the medivac starts to heal em.(depending on your marine count) with under the medivac I mean try to snipe as many units as possible while it unloads them. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On December 10 2014 07:09 TheDwf wrote: ... Second, with the lead you had in the game—his economy was in tatters—you can actually take the time to build the money army (against no Colossi) of 20-25 Ghosts with a few Vikings (to dispose of Observers) and a dozen of Medivacs; rest MM with a stronger emphasis on Marines because of Immortals. Then you engage in the following way: - Scan his army; - Unleash everything—Marauders in front, Marines behind; - Cloak your Ghosts; - Spam EMPs in advance on his army (like 10-15 EMPs so virtually everything has no shields left); - Stim, retreat your bio (Ghosts stand if no Observer is around, otherwise you have to retreat them too) and start the hit & run. Even if he somehow holds the first wave, he'll lose so many Archons/Immortals than the next one will prevail. TheDwf, what you describe is something I have hard time doing myself, typically 50% of the time I will simply throw off the game So a few questions :- is it something you can always do, or only when you have a massive economic lead? (like : is it really cost effective?) - if you take the replay of Westy (the game on akylon waste) would you have engaged directly up the natural ramp or would you have waited for him to go down in the open (and took the risk to give him time to catch up in army strength)? - You seem to say that stim is the last action you do, just before starting the kiting. I thougth that I had to stim as soon as possible, was I wrong all this time? thx | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
On December 10 2014 18:07 Gwavajuice wrote: TheDwf, what you describe is something I have hard time doing myself, typically 50% of the time I will simply throw off the game So a few questions :- is it something you can always do, or only when you have a massive economic lead? (like : is it really cost effective?) - if you take the replay of Westy (the game on akylon waste) would you have engaged directly up the natural ramp or would you have waited for him to go down in the open (and took the risk to give him time to catch up in army strength)? - You seem to say that stim is the last action you do, just before starting the kiting. I thougth that I had to stim as soon as possible, was I wrong all this time? thx I think his comment on having a lead was related to the building of a 20-25 ghosts army. It's super expensive , and in my experience (I'm only diamond level tho), you do need to have an economical lead to be able to afford it. I often struggle vs zealot heavy compositions too. But man, if you can get up to lots of ghosts (when you start getting 10-12+), you can afford to EMP the zealots and with the ghosts' DPS, they just melt. Almost no kiting needed, and you can focus on EMP and vikings. Problem is, you start facing zealot heavy armies way earlier than when you can reasonnably get that amount of ghosts... | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 10 2014 18:07 Gwavajuice wrote: TheDwf, what you describe is something I have hard time doing myself, typically 50% of the time I will simply throw off the game So a few questions :- is it something you can always do, or only when you have a massive economic lead? (like : is it really cost effective?) - if you take the replay of Westy (the game on akylon waste) would you have engaged directly up the natural ramp or would you have waited for him to go down in the open (and took the risk to give him time to catch up in army strength)? - You seem to say that stim is the last action you do, just before starting the kiting. I thougth that I had to stim as soon as possible, was I wrong all this time? thx The Ghost micro occurs before the Stim, usually. You don't want to waste time stimmed when you are still running to the right location. Additionally, 1 second of being Stimmed has a lower damage output than 1 second of erasing ALL shields from Protoss. As well as Stim before EMP actually nullifying the effectiveness of EMP. | ||
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Gendo
United Kingdom216 Posts
haven't played in a long time, got placed in gold (diamond T and Z in WoL) without any practice nor builds. Liquipedia is pretty skinny atm so could you recommend a build for every m/u with maybe a reference vod? or even one fits all? just to get used again to the mechanics. Was a strictly macro player but i wouldn't mind knowing a timing/all in vs toss as i don't really want to deal with them  also intend to play more casually...Thanks! | ||
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
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Gendo
United Kingdom216 Posts
On December 11 2014 03:13 Dunmer wrote: Literally all you need is in the first psrt of the OP. Its spoilered Seen it but thought was out of date, should i take builds out of it? | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 11 2014 03:21 Gendo wrote: Seen it but thought was out of date, should i take builds out of it? It's not. It's up to date reasonably well. If you are new to the race, the slight outdatedness shouldn't be a problem. | ||
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NexT_SC2
United States117 Posts
Thanks | ||
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