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Canada8160 Posts
On August 22 2014 15:51 chambertin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 23:52 Incognoto wrote:
TheDwf is amazing. There's so much work in the OP. must take hours wanted to quote this... to ask a quick 2 questions: 1) if you have your raven with your marine-tank, and you tab, will you be able to stim? (or would it go to siege mode) (or does this not work like this at all) 2) TvT: going gasfirst cloak banshee if you scout opp. going gas first and you can't confirm second gas from them do you have to hold your banshee back to check for marine-hellion drop/elevator? (if so, for how long???)
1) tabbing once will tab to your marines and you can stop
2) send it to their base, a banshee won't do much in holding the marine/hellion elevator
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On August 22 2014 19:48 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 15:51 chambertin wrote:On August 19 2014 23:52 Incognoto wrote:
TheDwf is amazing. There's so much work in the OP. must take hours wanted to quote this... to ask a quick 2 questions: 1) if you have your raven with your marine-tank, and you tab, will you be able to stim? (or would it go to siege mode) (or does this not work like this at all) 2) TvT: going gasfirst cloak banshee if you scout opp. going gas first and you can't confirm second gas from them do you have to hold your banshee back to check for marine-hellion drop/elevator? (if so, for how long???) 1) tabbing once will tab to your marines and you can stop 2) send it to their base, a banshee won't do much in holding the marine/hellion elevator
About the second point your answer is plainly wrong. If you are playing gas first in TvT you usually have two options if you are heading for your starport. The most common in the current meta would surely be the defensive raven against the 2nd very common gas first build; the cloak banshee.
If you are the player that went gas first and scouted - and a gas first at that - you can assume that in a lot of cases it will either be a banshee build OR the defensive raven. A lot of times it could and will be the right choice to switch to a defensive raven build and put down your CC - you could be bit quicker with it and in case of a cloak banshee you will be ahead.
In case he is going the defensive raven expansion (often times followed by a raven, viking & marine/tank poke OR MMA style with 2 medivac raven/viking 2 tank+8 marine drop) you are even in the game. A gas first hellion/marine elevator can obviously happen off of a gas first build as well, it hits earlier but is also has less units. While the banshee isn't the best tool defending this sending it over to harass while you opened a gas first build as well and probably are lacking units will clearly put you out of business.
You would need to defend with scvs which are terrible against the synergy that are hellions and marines + medivac. The chances are also very likely that your banshee on the other side of the map won't deal even amounts of damage as even with an gas first elevator you would build an ebay and a turret (sometimes till 99% to cancel if no banshee is coming) and a viking right after your medivac.
So TL;DR
Keep your banshee as defensive, put down a CC - he still has to put up a defence since your cloak banshee isn't useless in midgame.
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Canada8160 Posts
I just don't see a point getting a banshee, let alone cloak, if you're not going to be aggressive, its a huge waste of resources to defend one push that will still kill a lot of scvs anyway
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The banshee is there to focus the helions down, without it you will most likely just die to this push. With the arival of your next banshee you should be able to start harrasing him and even the scales or even come out ahead.
Naturally the best counter to this build from gas first is a reactor helion build with a viking but for various reasons this build is bad vs most other TvT openers.
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On August 22 2014 21:10 Jer99 wrote:
I just don't see a point getting a banshee, let alone cloak, if you're not going to be aggressive, its a huge waste of resources to defend one push that will still kill a lot of scvs anyway
I think if you've already committed to a Banshee, you might as well send it over, BUT if you scout gas-first from him, why wouldn't you just switch to a Raven build and be safe against more things. Get out a lot of Marines, a Mine or two, and just defend the Marine-Hellion elevator to then be ahead with your faster CC.
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On August 22 2014 23:44 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 21:10 Jer99 wrote:
I just don't see a point getting a banshee, let alone cloak, if you're not going to be aggressive, its a huge waste of resources to defend one push that will still kill a lot of scvs anyway I think if you've already committed to a Banshee, you might as well send it over, BUT if you scout gas-first from him, why wouldn't you just switch to a Raven build and be safe against more things. Get out a lot of Marines, a Mine or two, and just defend the Marine-Hellion elevator to then be ahead with your faster CC.
does the raven really help that much against marine elevator? (would you have energy by then for more then just 2 auto-turrets?) [come to think of it that actually sounds pretty good]
thanks for responding Jazzman, Jer, 4servy and Naruto
((but still waiting for a consensus/Dwf tiebreak on what to do with the banshee...?))
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oh... follow up query/////
If you are going marine-reaper off of your gas first (which I am, and loooving it), how might I tell if an opponent is going for marine-hellion drop as oppo. to macro play off of a viking? [I really don't know the marine-hellion build; does it open with reactor marine and hellions or reactor hellions then reactored marines?]
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On August 22 2014 23:44 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 21:10 Jer99 wrote:
I just don't see a point getting a banshee, let alone cloak, if you're not going to be aggressive, its a huge waste of resources to defend one push that will still kill a lot of scvs anyway I think if you've already committed to a Banshee, you might as well send it over, BUT if you scout gas-first from him, why wouldn't you just switch to a Raven build and be safe against more things. Get out a lot of Marines, a Mine or two, and just defend the Marine-Hellion elevator to then be ahead with your faster CC.
- If you're sure that its an elevator you should definitely defend it prior to sending the banshee to his base. Marines alone can't hold the elevator and the banshee ensures a clean defense.
Once you've defended it you can be safe in attacking him while knowing he has a lower marine/unit count at home to defend.
- If you don't know it's an elevator, sending the banshee the shortest route to his base may catch the hellions on the way which can tip you off (and you can start damaging them).
- The raven opening is weaker than the banshee opening in defending the elevator
- To answer your final point, aggression is king in early-game TvT. It's impossible or very hard to prepare for all possibilities so relegating yourself purely to defense is weaker than going for early aggression yourself.
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On August 23 2014 00:06 chambertin wrote:
oh... follow up query/////
If you are going marine-reaper off of your gas first (which I am, and loooving it), how might I tell if an opponent is going for marine-hellion drop as oppo. to macro play off of a viking? [I really don't know the marine-hellion build; does it open with reactor marine and hellions or reactor hellions then reactored marines?]
The primary tell for this play is gas first without a second gas added after the factory.
The second tell is no addons on the production or just a single reactor.
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On August 22 2014 21:10 Jer99 wrote:
I just don't see a point getting a banshee, let alone cloak, if you're not going to be aggressive, its a huge waste of resources to defend one push that will still kill a lot of scvs anyway
We are not talking about your preference here, but about what should be the logical choice. The correct choice is to defend. If you make a good stand, he will be naturally behind because he picked a build that is inferior and corner-cutting to begin with. Also; the gas first elevator is alot easier to stop as its not as many units.
If you have your banshee at home you certainly will still lose a few scvs, but you won't be behind and can start to harass after. If you send your banshee over the chances are high you will die of the elevator and your banshee wont accomplish anything noteworthy because he will have a turret up.
Ofcourse if you are playing in proleague you might find the actions to spare to micro your banshee offensively while defending perfectly but I dont think such a player would feel the need to ask here.
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On August 19 2014 23:52 Incognoto wrote:
TheDwf is amazing. There's so much work in the OP. must take hours
On August 20 2014 02:36 OverSpeedy wrote:In the standard recommended strategies are some little mistakes in the links: - TvT --> 2. 1-1-1 expand; & should be replaced by ?, Cure vs Bunny- TvZ --> 3. Reaper expand with the same transition as above; same as above and time little bit off, Flash vs soO--> 5. Hellions/Banshees; h is missing, Cure vs RogueGood job TheDwf 
Thanks! It's fixed. 
On August 22 2014 15:51 chambertin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 23:52 Incognoto wrote:
TheDwf is amazing. There's so much work in the OP. must take hours wanted to quote this... to ask a quick 2 questions: 1) if you have your raven with your marine-tank, and you tab, will you be able to stim? (or would it go to siege mode) (or does this not work like this at all) 2) TvT: going gasfirst cloak banshee if you scout opp. going gas first and you can't confirm second gas from them do you have to hold your banshee back to check for marine-hellion drop/elevator? (if so, for how long???)
1) Yes. Priority goes Raven → Marines → Tanks → Medivacs. You can read this if you want to know more.
2) You can keep/send a SCV on the map, then sacrifice it before your Banshee moves out (if he still has several Marines at his ramp at 6' he's obviously not going for an elevator); or make a Hellion and scout with it. If you see one Hellion, you can opt for caution with the Banshee, and if you see a second Hellion, there are very strong chances he's going for an elevator.
About the "what to do with your Banshee" debate in such a scenario (gas first Cloak Banshee vs gas first elevator): as NarutO said keeping your Banshee at home is forced; otherwise the 6 Marines 3 Hellions 1 Medivac army will make short work of your 6-8 Marines and get tons of SCV kills while your Banshee will at best snipe 4-5 SCVs if your opponent has a Turret ready at home. With the Banshee at home you can defend the attack without losing a single SCV (Banshee hits generally kill off Marines before he has time to move them back) while your opponent will still be forced to get Turrets. A close example of this can be found in Bogus vs Dayshi, Merry, ATC (Dayshi uses the Reactor after first Marine variant but the point still stands).
On August 22 2014 23:44 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 21:10 Jer99 wrote:
I just don't see a point getting a banshee, let alone cloak, if you're not going to be aggressive, its a huge waste of resources to defend one push that will still kill a lot of scvs anyway I think if you've already committed to a Banshee, you might as well send it over, BUT if you scout gas-first from him, why wouldn't you just switch to a Raven build and be safe against more things. Get out a lot of Marines, a Mine or two, and just defend the Marine-Hellion elevator to then be ahead with your faster CC.
Going Raven first against a scouted gas first opening is a risk as well, because Raven first has a terrible game against a gas first elevator if your troops are not exactly positioned where he tries to elevator the first time (which is luck-based, particularly on maps like Catallena with such a wide surface to cover). Cloak Banshee into Raven is actually safer overall against gas first openings because it does OK against the 3 most popular possibilities (elevator, Cloak Banshee, Raven). Watch for instance jjakji vs heroMarine to see what happens when an elevator lands uncontested against a Raven opening. jjakji lacks 2 Marines and loses his first Hellion, yet the sequence ends up in a SCV massacre. Same thing in Dayshi vs jjakji: Dayshi shows jjakji an early second gas to trick him, then kills the Raven opening with his elevator. (Notice this game is a perfect simulation of the "scout gas first while going gas first yourself → deviate towards Raven" procedure you suggest. ;p)
On August 23 2014 00:06 chambertin wrote:
oh... follow up query/////
If you are going marine-reaper off of your gas first (which I am, and loooving it), how might I tell if an opponent is going for marine-hellion drop as oppo. to macro play off of a viking? [I really don't know the marine-hellion build; does it open with reactor marine and hellions or reactor hellions then reactored marines?]
Viking first is quite rare, and at any rate your opponent would most likely take a second gas to get a Raven as a second Starport unit, so if you scout a single gas with your Reaper odds are he's playing either an elevator or a 6 Marines 1 Mine drop (possibly with 1-2 Hellion(s) poking the front). If you keep your Reaper alive after your first scout you can sacrifice it later to see his exact unit composition.
There are different variants of the Marines/Hellions elevator, but the most popular one is gas first with 6 Marines before Reactor (so all his buildings are naked until the Medivac appears). The other variants…
gas first, 1 Marine before Reactor;
gas 13, 7 Marines before Reactor;
gas 13, 2 Marines before Reactor.
… are very rarely used or obsolete. (In the pro scene, Dayshi uses the first one, Polt the second one, and the third one is extinct in HotS.)
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I don't have much experience with this myself, but I checked out avilo's stream a couple times (yeah I know) and looked at the mass raven strat people hate so much. If one were to ever encounter that, why not make ghosts to counter it, something I never see? They cost about the same (more minerals less gas) and since ravens clump up pretty easily a couple well-placed emps would essentially mean 50 dead supply in terrans army.
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Havn't seen the Avilo games.... But whenever I go for that composition I make sure to have tank support just to avoid that will happen.
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Avilo makes ghosts too if he sees terran also going mass raven.
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On August 23 2014 11:49 halpimcat wrote:
I don't have much experience with this myself, but I checked out avilo's stream a couple times (yeah I know) and looked at the mass raven strat people hate so much. If one were to ever encounter that, why not make ghosts to counter it, something I never see? They cost about the same (more minerals less gas) and since ravens clump up pretty easily a couple well-placed emps would essentially mean 50 dead supply in terrans army.
The biggest problems are that a good raven user won't get all of his ravens EMP'd outside of some situations where you can totally surprise him (which is hard with the amount of scans in late TvT). Also, even if you EMP his 20-40 supply of ravens (going above 15 ravens already is not a good idea at all, especially for this reason), you still have to deal with 100+ supply of other stuff, usually tank/viking/thor behind turrets, which can stall easily during one or two minutes to allow ravens to be useful again.
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On August 23 2014 23:40 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 11:49 halpimcat wrote:
I don't have much experience with this myself, but I checked out avilo's stream a couple times (yeah I know) and looked at the mass raven strat people hate so much. If one were to ever encounter that, why not make ghosts to counter it, something I never see? They cost about the same (more minerals less gas) and since ravens clump up pretty easily a couple well-placed emps would essentially mean 50 dead supply in terrans army. The biggest problems are that a good raven user won't get all of his ravens EMP'd outside of some situations where you can totally surprise him (which is hard with the amount of scans in late TvT). Also, even if you EMP his 20-40 supply of ravens (going above 15 ravens already is not a good idea at all, especially for this reason), you still have to deal with 100+ supply of other stuff, usually tank/viking/thor behind turrets, which can stall easily during one or two minutes to allow ravens to be useful again.
Well I'm not advocating having your ghosts commit suicide to get their emps off. Of course you'd have to be selective and either wait for the right moment or try to force an opportunity (constantly moving their army around, etc). I also figured that their useless army isn't just in ravens after the emps - it's in the Viking count designed to protect their ravens, which also becomes useless in the fight. Wihout seeker missiles, point defense drones, and an essentially worthless air army, an adequate stimmed ground army should be able to clean up. I guess if your have to fight through a ton of planetaries, turrets, in addition to the mech army you've already had a huge problem in your hands.
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In TvT, what's the best way to play if you're going gas first cloak banshee and your opponent is going 15 gas? Usually what happens is my banshee doesn't do much because they get detection in time, I can't pressure them with my army because of the threat of drops (and more importantly, if we meet in the open their army is usually stronger than mine), and their faster CC means they're economically ahead. I'm having trouble finding some kind of advantage to push with this build order roulette situation.
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I am not a particularly high level terran player (forever diamond) but here is my analysis on using banshee first vs 15 gas so use at your caution.
If you go gas first banshee and your opponent goes for 15 gas then you have to be as active as possible with your banshee to try and find some sort of hole in their defence where you can do some damage (look to kill SCVs mining that are not covered by a turret, attack a techlab or kill SCVs building structures). Remember 15 gas delays their tech so a raven for mobile detection will be late meaning if they want to be 100% safe vs the banshee they need 3 turrets, one at the main mineral line, one at the natural and one covering their production. If they go for the 3 turrets, then your banshee has kinda done its job - it has slowed your opponent down from where they would like to be (faster 3rd CC, additional rax, more units etc). Try to burn as many scans as possible - each scan they use means 200 less minerals of income from an unused mule while you can use mules at home to ramp up your eco.
Also remember, with the banshee you have a scout of their base and can read into what they are planning to do and they don't know what you are doing. You can use this to your advantage to adapt your build to what they are doing, allowing you to get a safe faster 3rd CC if you see them playing too defensive (allowing you to catch up in SCVs faster) and also allowing you to prioritise your gas income (do you need faster tanks to defend an incoming push or can you spend your gas on a faster stim or upgrades?). Use your scouting to prepare a solid defence for what is coming and most importantly KEEP YOUR BANSHEE ALIVE. If you keep the banshee alive you can be extremely annoying (if they push across the map and leave the raven at home, use your banshee to attack their tanks at the front, if they send the raven with their attack, use the banshee to attack any re-enforcing tanks that are coming across the map so they can't set up a strong contain vs you.)
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On August 24 2014 18:40 Goofinator wrote:
I am not a particularly high level terran player (forever diamond) but here is my analysis on using banshee first vs 15 gas so use at your caution.
If you go gas first banshee and your opponent goes for 15 gas then you have to be as active as possible with your banshee to try and find some sort of hole in their defence where you can do some damage (look to kill SCVs mining that are not covered by a turret, attack a techlab or kill SCVs building structures). Remember 15 gas delays their tech so a raven for mobile detection will be late meaning if they want to be 100% safe vs the banshee they need 3 turrets, one at the main mineral line, one at the natural and one covering their production. If they go for the 3 turrets, then your banshee has kinda done its job - it has slowed your opponent down from where they would like to be (faster 3rd CC, additional rax, more units etc). Try to burn as many scans as possible - each scan they use means 200 less minerals of income from an unused mule while you can use mules at home to ramp up your eco.
Also remember, with the banshee you have a scout of their base and can read into what they are planning to do and they don't know what you are doing. You can use this to your advantage to adapt your build to what they are doing, allowing you to get a safe faster 3rd CC if you see them playing too defensive (allowing you to catch up in SCVs faster) and also allowing you to prioritise your gas income (do you need faster tanks to defend an incoming push or can you spend your gas on a faster stim or upgrades?). Use your scouting to prepare a solid defence for what is coming and most importantly KEEP YOUR BANSHEE ALIVE. If you keep the banshee alive you can be extremely annoying (if they push across the map and leave the raven at home, use your banshee to attack their tanks at the front, if they send the raven with their attack, use the banshee to attack any re-enforcing tanks that are coming across the map so they can't set up a strong contain vs you.)
http://drop.sc/385218
Here is a recent replay of me going gas first vs 15 gas. Instead of turrets, the guy went raven which surprised me a bit (I didn't even go into the mineral line because I assumed he'd have turrets, my mistake). Even if I had tried to do economic damage his raven was already halfway done by the time my banshee got there (something wrong with my build?). Since he didn't have medivacs out I ruled out the possibility of elevator or drop play early, and tried moving out since my expansion was already behind and I felt I needed to do something. My push got demolished - partly due to mismanagement on my part.
I'm sure my play could've been executed better, but in terms of pure decision-making and strategy what should have been my moves going forward?
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Sweden33719 Posts
(In TvT) Is the 15 gas reactor cc still used nowadays? Feel like I dont see many people use it in games I watch, and KR server is predominantly gas first right now it seems...
Also feeling like the 15 gas reactor cc leaves you with no info and I have to overdefend (but could be because I dont know all the timings and signs yet) 
Eitherway it's definitely harder to play... I'm 9-6 with gas first openings and 4-8 with the 15 gas reactor build (and 3-1 with reaper opening, barely see anyone do that either atm).
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