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How can hellion/banshee openers be standard in TvZ? I find them extremely weak in two types of situations:
1. Against a very fast baneling bust. Provided that you go for a CC before factory you will only have 2 hellions out when the bust hits and 2 more shortly afterwards. That is nowhere near enough to survive the streams of zerglings in your base after the baneling has broken the wall to your main.
2. Provided you get to take your natural uncontested and send your hellions and banshee towards his soon to be third, you can either delay the third or even kill it if he is really greedy. But the problem is that if he goes for a mass roach counter attack he can destroy your production and economy long before your banshee tickle the roaches to death.
Basically I recognize that hellion/banshee is excellent to deny creep spread, put on some early pressure on, force units etc. But banshees does not kill roaches fast enough to hold the counter attack.
I normally open rax-factory-cc-cc which means you have enough tanks to hold both early baneling bust and roach attacks. The only problem is that you cannot really apply much pressure with this opening.
If there any opening besides rax-factory-cc-cc that gives you both strong defense adn strong eco but also lets you apply some pressure as well? The goal for me is to mech, as always.
On August 19 2014 04:34 MockHamill wrote: How can hellion/banshee openers be standard in TvZ? I find them extremely weak in two types of situations:
1. Against a very fast baneling bust. Provided that you go for a CC before factory you will only have 2 hellions out when the bust hits and 2 more shortly afterwards. That is nowhere near enough to survive the streams of zerglings in your base after the baneling has broken the wall to your main.
2. Provided you get to take your natural uncontested and send your hellions and banshee towards his soon to be third, you can either delay the third or even kill it if he is really greedy. But the problem is that if he goes for a mass roach counter attack he can destroy your production and economy long before your banshee tickle the roaches to death.
Basically I recognize that hellion/banshee is excellent to deny creep spread, put on some early pressure on, force units etc. But banshees does not kill roaches fast enough to hold the counter attack.
I normally open rax-factory-cc-cc which means you have enough tanks to hold both early baneling bust and roach attacks. The only problem is that you cannot really apply much pressure with this opening.
If there any opening besides rax-factory-cc-cc that gives you both strong defense adn strong eco but also lets you apply some pressure as well? The goal for me is to mech, as always.
Hellions are mandatory, banshees after provides good defense against everything you have noted. With a wall up and good micro, baneling busts at the time you are describing shouldn't be scary really. If you scout roach, depending on the level of commital from the Zerg, you can commit to more banshees. He will trade his whole army + more to try and kill you while your banshees clean up and you micro your hellions. You will be ahead on upgrades and if you went 3CC, you will be able to bounce back in economy. Also, by going banshee over say, tank, you allow yourself a much better counter-swing potential and don't have to concede map control.
Of course, this is dependent on your scouting with your initial reapers, if he is going for a committed roach attack (like HyuNs 1-1 timing) you need tanks yeah, or a speed roach/speed bane etc.
On August 19 2014 03:03 Carryon wrote: Thx Slydie! but I still have some doubts xD
If toss sacrifices his third, and move his army to defend his natural ramp, would I be in a good position if I back my scvs home without engaging (considering that I'm on 3 bases).
Depends on upgrades. If you went a no Armory SCV pull and he's on dual forge, you can send back your SCVs but you're toast on the long run as Protoss may be 3-3 to your 1-1 at some point (a close scenario would be SuperNova vs First, Foxtrot, Red Bull Qualifier). If you went a +2 SCV pull and kept mining with 35-40 SCVs during the push, it can turn out okayish. See Flash vs Sora, Bel'shir Vestige, SPL for an example of a SCV pull returning home after destroying a third (but killing Probes at the third was the key).
If I have to egange his army anyway, what's the point of doing the scv pull on 3 bases instead of 2?
1. The 2-bases variant is much easier to scout for Protoss. 2. Against the 2-bases variant, Protoss can stay himself on 2 bases and be impervious to your attack (especially as Protoss can get colo/storm on 2 bases while a decent amount of Ghosts/Vikings requires 3). 3. In case the attack semi-fails, the third OC will be critical to rebuild your economy for a second wave.
Even if I wouldnt choose to scv pull, would it be good to try to engage at that timing? I mean, in normal macro game, do terrans usually attack at 14 minute mark or do they wait to be maxed? I basically wanted to know what are the best moments to engage in a normal macro tvp.
It's quite complicated as it depends a lot on the respective builds/game plans. You may try a +2 timing around 14 minutes, especially if Protoss is trying to tech switch to Storm at this time, but for instance if he keeps building Colossi and massing units on 4 gas (no gas at his third), it's best to delay your attack and wait for more Ghosts and more Vikings (e. g. TaeJa vs Zest, Nimbus, IEM Shenzen).
On August 19 2014 04:34 MockHamill wrote: How can hellion/banshee openers be standard in TvZ? I find them extremely weak in two types of situations:
1. Against a very fast baneling bust. Provided that you go for a CC before factory you will only have 2 hellions out when the bust hits and 2 more shortly afterwards. That is nowhere near enough to survive the streams of zerglings in your base after the baneling has broken the wall to your main.
What you mention has little to do with Hellions/Banshees per se since other builds like 3OC, other 1-1-1 or even 3 rax timings would still be on 2-4 Hellions when the bane bust hits. If Reactor Hellions after expand could not handle bane busts, then it would not be used 99% of the time in high level TvZ! Either you have execution problems with the build, or you're not microing Hellions/SCVs as you should. Even 14/14 variants can be defended.
2. Provided you get to take your natural uncontested and send your hellions and banshee towards his soon to be third, you can either delay the third or even kill it if he is really greedy. But the problem is that if he goes for a mass roach counter attack he can destroy your production and economy long before your banshee tickle the roaches to death.
Depends what you call "mass Roach counter". If it's about defensive slow Roaches going for the counter instead of defending the third, then you need a spotter to redirect your Banshees and attack them on the road. You should hold comfortably with your Bunker in your natural (edit: e. g. Mvp vs DRG, King Sejong, Red Bull Qualifiers). If it's about 1/1 Speedroaches, then yes they can be a bit tricky to hold with Hellions/Banshees into mech, but 3 Banshees + morphing your Hellions into Hellbats + mass repairing your Bunker should do or at least buy time until your two first Tanks arrive.
On August 19 2014 19:19 KonanTenshi wrote: I'm wondering if you could add some mech resources in the OP?
There is good threads for it but maybe keep it here as well?
In the standard recommended strategies are some little mistakes in the links:
- TvT --> 2. 1-1-1 expand; & should be replaced by ?, Cure vs Bunny
- TvZ --> 3. Reaper expand with the same transition as above; same as above and time little bit off, Flash vs soO --> 5. Hellions/Banshees; h is missing, Cure vs Rogue
Q. Is the old 1-base 1-1-1 all-in still viable? [Answer] - TheDwf wrote: If Protoss is vigilant and doesn't play in autopilot assuming you expanded, it won't work because of the MSC (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge).
On August 21 2014 07:45 KonanTenshi wrote: read the OP
Q. Is the old 1-base 1-1-1 all-in still viable? [Answer] - TheDwf wrote: If Protoss is vigilant and doesn't play in autopilot assuming you expanded, it won't work because of the MSC (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge).
Does anyone have tips bio vs ultras lategame? What do I do if zerg manages to get out 15 ultras? I tried to drop but he had mutas left, I tried mass marodeur and mines but it was not enough even though I kited over the entire map. Should I make walls everywhere? Should I add more factories instead of raxes and go mass mine and thors? But the thors are gonna have bad upgrades vs fully upgraded ultras. I mean he has lings banes and mutas too ofc so making too many marodeur would be bad too. Just mass mines?
On August 21 2014 07:45 KonanTenshi wrote: read the OP
Q. Is the old 1-base 1-1-1 all-in still viable? [Answer] - TheDwf wrote: If Protoss is vigilant and doesn't play in autopilot assuming you expanded, it won't work because of the MSC (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge).
does the Photon Overcharge outrange siege tanks?
It equals the tank range, and even if you have a substantial army, all the various counter techniques used in WoL are still applicable with the added MSC goodness to go with it. Basically, now that Habitation Station is no longer in the pool, don't bother.
On August 21 2014 07:39 SC2BF3Love wrote: Simple question as of right now, i have a long time that i just don play SC2, i was master as Protoss back in WOL, but i decided to switch to Terran.
Does the Terran 1-1-1 from WOL still some what viable in Hots? i mean the 1rax,1fact,1starport
making constant marines and moving out with like 2-3tanks 2-3banshees and a couple of scvs?
The 1-1-1 doesn't work anymore
On August 21 2014 08:50 Aquila- wrote: Does anyone have tips bio vs ultras lategame? What do I do if zerg manages to get out 15 ultras? I tried to drop but he had mutas left, I tried mass marodeur and mines but it was not enough even though I kited over the entire map. Should I make walls everywhere? Should I add more factories instead of raxes and go mass mine and thors? But the thors are gonna have bad upgrades vs fully upgraded ultras. I mean he has lings banes and mutas too ofc so making too many marodeur would be bad too. Just mass mines?
Marauders with good micro should be adequate. 15 Ultralisks means he probably won't have much of a muta/ling/bling army, so make sure you don't take a fight on creep otherwise the ultras will be able to catch up and hack away at your army. You'll need to add more barracks with tech labs to crank out enough marauders in time for this. To deal with the mutas, you can either have marines in your army too or mines, both options are fine.
On August 21 2014 08:50 Aquila- wrote: Does anyone have tips bio vs ultras lategame? What do I do if zerg manages to get out 15 ultras? I tried to drop but he had mutas left, I tried mass marodeur and mines but it was not enough even though I kited over the entire map. Should I make walls everywhere? Should I add more factories instead of raxes and go mass mine and thors? But the thors are gonna have bad upgrades vs fully upgraded ultras. I mean he has lings banes and mutas too ofc so making too many marodeur would be bad too. Just mass mines?
Generally, you want to add extra barracks with techlabs preferably on your fourth (after my initial 8 rax, 2 techlabbed I like to go up to 11 total, 5 techlabbed, and 3 factories) to deal with ultras but also to make a good simcity. Macro orbitals at your other outlying expansions can also help with simcity so ultra/ling/bane is filtered through and you can just concave out and probably not even need to split. Drops are necessary, and mines are necessary. Microing against ultras is relatively straightforward; you leave one or 2 units in front per small group of bio and then pull the rest in the group back and out, so the ultra stays attacking the one unit in front but does no splash. It is essentially the same as splitting well against ling/bane but you don't need to split again until the ultras attack another bio clump, unless banelings come for you of course. Mines are necessary to soften up the ultras so you can kill them more quickly, as well as dealing with ling/bane. Thors are nice because they can absorb the attacks of 2-3 ultras while your bio fires at them untouched, but they detract from your mobility so they may not be worth it.
On August 19 2014 04:34 MockHamill wrote: How can hellion/banshee openers be standard in TvZ? I find them extremely weak in two types of situations:
1. Against a very fast baneling bust. Provided that you go for a CC before factory you will only have 2 hellions out when the bust hits and 2 more shortly afterwards. That is nowhere near enough to survive the streams of zerglings in your base after the baneling has broken the wall to your main.
2. Provided you get to take your natural uncontested and send your hellions and banshee towards his soon to be third, you can either delay the third or even kill it if he is really greedy. But the problem is that if he goes for a mass roach counter attack he can destroy your production and economy long before your banshee tickle the roaches to death.
Basically I recognize that hellion/banshee is excellent to deny creep spread, put on some early pressure on, force units etc. But banshees does not kill roaches fast enough to hold the counter attack.
I normally open rax-factory-cc-cc which means you have enough tanks to hold both early baneling bust and roach attacks. The only problem is that you cannot really apply much pressure with this opening.
If there any opening besides rax-factory-cc-cc that gives you both strong defense adn strong eco but also lets you apply some pressure as well? The goal for me is to mech, as always.
Yes, there is a 2 fact into BFH into hellbat drop build that is very flexible and non-committal. You can start off with either a 12 reaper (1 or 2 reapers before reactor) or a 1 rax expand depending on the map (such as the natural choke size and if it's a good map for reapers). It goes into a setup with a reactored factory and a tech labbed barracks, which is not indicative of mech yet, and you will even have money to start a marauder and stim in case if he's doing an all-in; your hellions will be able to scout in time and confirm if it's safe to cancel them.
It's safe, can use an economic opener, and will provide you with tech (blue flame, drops, armory) and you will have 2 factories to make tanks and hellions/WMs to defend all-ins. The easiest example I can think of for reference is this:
Note: You don't have to pay attention to the whole video, just look at Val's build.
This build was also used a lot by other players such as Strelok. Because of the patch that now allows transformation of hellions into hellbats without the upgrade, this build has even more options and possible variations (such as hitting him with blue flame hellbat drops even earlier, though not having as many hellions to harass for your dual prong harass).
On August 21 2014 11:35 HFABamaFan wrote: How many SCV's should be in the game at once?
Up until the lategame, you shouldn't be cutting unless going for an aggressive attack or all-in.
If you're talking about the lategame:
60 SCVs is a balanced number to have. 70 is slightly greedy/economic. 80 is greedy and will have a significant impact on your army.
If you have a decent bank and have a big army already, going down to 40 or 50 SCVs is usually a good idea. Going any below that will give you a very strong army but you
On August 21 2014 07:45 KonanTenshi wrote: read the OP
Q. Is the old 1-base 1-1-1 all-in still viable? [Answer] - TheDwf wrote: If Protoss is vigilant and doesn't play in autopilot assuming you expanded, it won't work because of the MSC (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge).
I saw a clear demonstration of this on journey's stream
1-1-1 can still work but only vs players who cut corners. It is more likely to work in grandmasters because they tech before adding gates such as double forge and colossus den before gates due to them assuming you are playing and being safe with msc. There have also been players who have reach gm(practicex and backtothis) doing nothing but specificly doing 111 scv pulls. For the most part 1-1-1 doesnt or shouldnt work on maps that have 2 forcefied natural ramps.
On August 19 2014 23:52 Incognoto wrote: TheDwf is amazing. There's so much work in the OP. must take hours
wanted to quote this...
to ask a quick 2 questions:
1) if you have your raven with your marine-tank, and you tab, will you be able to stim? (or would it go to siege mode) (or does this not work like this at all)
2) TvT: going gasfirst cloak banshee if you scout opp. going gas first and you can't confirm second gas from them do you have to hold your banshee back to check for marine-hellion drop/elevator? (if so, for how long???)
EPT
