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Xillix
1 Post
i need help with f^%&*% 4gate, most games i lose in TvP are 4gates, last time i did 3 bunkers, and it WASNT enough, what else should i do ? http://drop.sc/384897 I know its silver/gold lvl, but i watched some pro-replays, and they cant do more like 12-13 marines with fast expand in time toos can 4gate u. I am playing BIO vs toss, so things like tanks are not an option for me. | ||
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Barracuda8
Bosnia-Herzegovina27 Posts
On August 13 2014 07:36 Bulugulu wrote: Against zerg, go reaper expand into hellions. From there you can expand to a 3rd or be more aggressive. Vs toss you can reaper expand or harass him before expanding. In both matchups you need to expand not later than 5-6 minutes even if you're being aggressive. If the zerg is being aggressive vs you, then he's sacrificing his economy to do it. In that case you don't need to be as aggressive vs him, but you can instead build up a large army and attack. All this is kind of general since I don't know your league or what builds you use.. Until gold-platinum league strategy almost doesn't matter. Just mechanics and macro. Sorry, i forgot to mention i'm in the gold league. I can beat most of the Bronze and Silver players, but i struggle and lose against people from the gold league. Sometimes when I play against a gold toss or zerg i don't expand because i use the money to build my army (MMM and 3-4 tanks) and try to end the game as soon as possible because i think they have a big advantage in middle/late game. I hope it makes sense Many players don't choose to expand fast versus Zerg for a tech advantage, and harass with more units or units countering the Zerg's forces. Reaper-Hellion works very well versus Zerg early on. When you see mutas, you should probably make Thors or Widow Mines to deal with them. Against Protoss, Ghosts and Vikings are hard counters to Anti-Bio play. Ghost --> Protoss Army = No shields Vikings --> Colossus = Long Range attacker that picks them off It is advisable to make many marauders against Stalker heavy builds and add in Vikings and Ghosts where needed. You should expand depending on the build you are using or what feels more comfortable. Hope this helps you. Thank you. It does help me.. In fact i've never used ghosts but i've seen a few games in youtube and ghosts seem to be very effective against Toss I watched your 1 replay and you don't seem to follow a basic build order/opener past the first depot/barracks. I'd suggest watching some pro games to see how the terrans open vs toss. You went marines first instead of reaper which leads me to believe that you're unsure of the current metagame. I would suggest following some build orders off of IMBAbuilds website, also watch some pro games to see how terrans deal with early ling/roach/2basemuta pressure. Yes, i tend to change my opener when I lose 2 or 3 games in a row because i get frustrated easily. I''m watching some masters replays to see what they do hoping it can help me to improve my game. Thanks for your replies. | ||
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Marp
Czech Republic7 Posts
On August 15 2014 05:24 Xillix wrote: Hi, i need help with f^%&*% 4gate, most games i lose in TvP are 4gates, last time i did 3 bunkers, and it WASNT enough, what else should i do ? http://drop.sc/384897 I know its silver/gold lvl, but i watched some pro-replays, and they cant do more like 12-13 marines with fast expand in time toos can 4gate u. I am playing BIO vs toss, so things like tanks are not an option for me. What are you mining the gas for? You never even started any bio upgrades (stim/combat shields, let alone attack/armor). When he attacks, you're floating like 400 gas. There's also way too few SCVs in your main. You optimally want 2 per mineral patch (16 total) – at one point you had twelve and then that decreased to like 6 or 7. There are also gaps in your SCV production and you get supply blocked at 30 and 38. Having so few workers defeats the purpose of your CC first build, which is extremely economy-oriented. If you want to use something like that, it's very important that you continuously produce workers! Anyway, while the above are pretty big issues, you still could have held it pretty easily. The only reason why you didn't is that your SCVs weren't actually repairing the bunkers at all! :D Or, to be more precise, about 4 of them were repairing the second bunker for a few seconds, but that's sadly not enough. You might also want to leave a bit of space between the bunkers so the SCVs can surround them completely. The repairing is the most important thing though. +points for you for scouting what he was up to and reacting correctly though. Also, since you pretty much know for sure that an attack is coming, you can just leave a few SCVs near the bunkers instead of sending them all back to mining (if you produce them consistently, you will have more of them mining than him anyway!), so that they can start repairing immediately when the protoss attacks. | ||
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Pucca
Taiwan1280 Posts
I remember there was a 1-base all-in in TvT that would open gas first so you would get the fastest hellions possible and nuke down their front door and run into their base with a ton of hellions and roast all the scv's I like the idea of opening ghost or teching to it fairly quickly. I'd like to experiment them as a an late early game or mid game composition. though I am unsure if this would be completely possible. It almost seemed viable to rush cloak for the ghost because it two shots drones. | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
On August 15 2014 12:27 Pucca wrote: Is it possible to open ghosts in all match ups? Or tech to them somewhat quickly? I remember there was a 1-base all-in in TvT that would open gas first so you would get the fastest hellions possible and nuke down their front door and run into their base with a ton of hellions and roast all the scv's I like the idea of opening ghost or teching to it fairly quickly. I'd like to experiment them as a an late early game or mid game composition. though I am unsure if this would be completely possible. It almost seemed viable to rush cloak for the ghost because it two shots drones. Tech openings will almost always favor choosing banshees over ghosts because they have much more utility in the early game - they open up starport tech (ghosts don't), can fly, are cheaper than ghosts, and match up better against most types of units which means you can defend and attack better with them. Opening early ghosts will almost always remain gimmicky because if your opponent knows what you are doing you will always remain behind. Not saying it's not doable though. The biggest thing imo in choosing to open early ghosts is looking at the meta in each matchup - some openings by your opponent will actually destroy ghost openings without even the need to scout. | ||
Jer99
Canada8159 Posts
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
On August 15 2014 12:27 Pucca wrote: Is it possible to open ghosts in all match ups? Or tech to them somewhat quickly? I remember there was a 1-base all-in in TvT that would open gas first so you would get the fastest hellions possible and nuke down their front door and run into their base with a ton of hellions and roast all the scv's I like the idea of opening ghost or teching to it fairly quickly. I'd like to experiment them as a an late early game or mid game composition. though I am unsure if this would be completely possible. It almost seemed viable to rush cloak for the ghost because it two shots drones. There used to be a 2 base ghost attack in TvZ that was used on ladder by ForGG, where he tries to nuke them while covering the ghost with hellions. It wasn't really good back then either. In TvT before the snipe nerf there was a ghost opening that was nice because you could emp banshees while they were cloaked, thus revealing them and draining their energy. And the ghost would then deal nice damage to the banshee (Extra to light units). Also, the ghost snipe had much higher damage then so it was effective vs early marines/rauders. It's kinda pointless to make ghost as a harass unit vs zerg.. They're too slow and expensive (except in the lategame). | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On August 15 2014 20:27 Bulugulu wrote: There used to be a 2 base ghost attack in TvZ that was used on ladder by ForGG, where he tries to nuke them while covering the ghost with hellions. It wasn't really good back then either. In TvT before the snipe nerf there was a ghost opening that was nice because you could emp banshees while they were cloaked, thus revealing them and draining their energy. And the ghost would then deal nice damage to the banshee (Extra to light units). Also, the ghost snipe had much higher damage then so it was effective vs early marines/rauders. It's kinda pointless to make ghost as a harass unit vs zerg.. They're too slow and expensive (except in the lategame). Even then, Ghosts are kind of a 'win more' unit in TvZ nowadays. If you crush the Zerg army using Snipe/Nuke (because let's face it, EMP is garbage versus Zerg), you could have done just as much damage with a well split and controlled Bio army, and possibly even easier with a small Raven fleet instead of a Ghost pack. Too, Ravens are better at defending themselves than Ghosts are, with PDD helping them get out of Hydra/Muta/Queen situations, and an all-purpose 'back the fuck off' button with Seeker Missile. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Obviously it will only work in TvP since Ghosts do crap damage for their cost, if you just want to do Cloak harass in TvT or TvZ, get Banshees instead. Previously, when Snipe still did 45 damage, there was a niche scenario in TvT in which a Ghost opening could EMP Banshees and one shot Marines (without Combat Shields) and SCVs with Snipe. But since the Snipe nerf that is no longer a valid option. First off, keep in mind that while you can get Ghosts very early (because you only need a Barracks for the Ghost Academy), they are hugely expensive at 200 minerals and 100 gas each. Early game is all about Minerals and having to spend 200 of them for each Ghost is a Barracks and a Marine you don't have. This means that early EMP (which is the only real reason to get early Ghosts) will not have a lot of Bio units available to take advantage of it. Again, ghosts do crap damage for their cost, as two Marines do more damage vs everything (including vs Light) for the same supply and much less minerals and no gas. All that said, a Ghost does add some versatility. EMP could (in theory) drain an Oracle of energy and decloak a Dark Templar. Offensively it could drain the energy of any Sentries, Nexii (denying Chronoboost) and the MSC. The main downside is that an early Ghost Academy + Ghosts is so expensive that you won't have much Bio to take advantage of those same early Ghosts. Trying to add in a decently timed expansion and not dying to any straight up pressure at the same time (e.g. 4gate or 7gate Blink) makes it a very tricky prospect. If you want to do early Ghost timings vs Protoss, I'd try a ~9 minute push with as much Bio as you can gather, no more than two Ghosts and just trying to bust the door down. If you can EMP the MSC or any Sentries, go for it. I do remember messing around with this back in WoL off a 12/14rax expansion. It gives you a decent number of marines, an expansion starting around 4:30 and then you get double gas. I remember being able to push out around 8:30 - 9:00 with one or two Ghosts, mostly Marines and a Medivac, and I got the Ghosts early so they could gather additional energy (might've been just one Ghost with enough energy for 2 EMPs). Note that it was a long long time ago and I have no idea how it would fare (if it all) in the current meta (for starters, 15gas Reactor is probably better to open with). | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
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Jer99
Canada8159 Posts
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
On August 16 2014 04:35 Jer99 wrote: For all intents and purposes, never open ghosts. I remember watching ROOTIllusion doing an Ghost all in in TvT during the testing of ghost energy buff. Seemed pretty stronk but hard to pull off. it kind of were like an 1/1/1 but with ghosts? | ||
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Mnijykmirl
United States299 Posts
On August 04 2014 20:45 Vies wrote: 1/1 roaches.... I'm finding it incredibly prevalent in diamond on NA. At first it was catching me off guard without seeing it coming at all. Now i've learnt to read when it's coming but have had very limited success even if i know about it very early on. My best games against it were when I went banshees after a standard repear opening and continued making banshees up to 3-4 to snipe off roaches in mid map when they move out. I've had zero success holding it when going for a 3CC build. My question is about unit composition and if anyone knows what the ideal unit composition and build to go for when a) you know it's coming early or b) you scout it late (assuming a standard reaper into 3CC or banshee). Then my next question would be the follow up against the roach hydra composition. What should be my game plan going into this phase of the game assuming after the 1/1 roach attack we evened out or one is slightly ahead of the other? Should I play defensively with bio tank? Maybe try to do some drops and abuse the immobility of his army? Should i be scanning the main to see when the hive is morphing and try to hit a big timing before Vipers? After the banshee, switch to producing siege tanks from two factories. Focus on macroing up on double eng. bay upgrades, to a third base, and nothing but marine, siege tank, and medivac. You don't have to stress as much aggression against roach-hydra. You can hover around with single 8 marine medivac drops looking for holes while macroing up but no need to cost yourself. If you have plenty of supply in marines and medivacs and siege tanks then with a little concave micro and even against vipers you'll overpower roach-hydra. Roach-hydra isn't any where near as supply efficient as all those marines and tanks, and if you play the game out with a level-head knowing that it becomes quite easy. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On August 16 2014 06:34 KonanTenshi wrote: I remember watching ROOTIllusion doing an Ghost all in in TvT during the testing of ghost energy buff. Seemed pretty stronk but hard to pull off. it kind of were like an 1/1/1 but with ghosts? If it had at all a decent percentage, Illusion would be doing it in tournaments situations. Don't open Ghosts, don't open Ghosts, don't open Ghosts. | ||
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Gaskal
Canada241 Posts
On August 16 2014 20:16 Xinzoe wrote: What is the correct response to 2 base bane bust if I open reaper hellion 3CC? I saw it coming so I used hellions/reapers defensively. Now my question is should I abandon natural and cancel 3rd CC? I usually lift off my natural and use it as part of the ramp wall and make a couple of ebays + bunkers. If I manage to hold it off what should be my followup, I sometimes lose after holding a bane bust without losing a single SCV On Overgrowth I just pull back the hellions and wall natural off by landing 3rd CC and two ebays. Pretty much impossible to bust. Other maps I'll pull back hellions and stick them on the main ramp, build like 3-4 bunkers spread out in the natural and 1 at the top of the main ramp and start widow mines immediately. | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
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Gaskal
Canada241 Posts
On August 17 2014 23:42 halpimcat wrote: Not so much a "help" question, but some insight would be nice. While not completely dead, I've noticed fewer and fewer people going hellion-banshee nowadays. Is there a reason the opening is phasing out? Are hellbat pushes really that much better? I never got this impression at least from the pro scene. Hellbats were strong for a while and occasionally can still catch the zerg off guard, but more and more zergs are either going with that pesky roach timing or just straight up blind roaches. The banshee hellion opener will essentially give you map control up until mutalisks come out. During the Red Bull qualifiers all 3 Terran to qualify so far have often used some sort of hellion banshee opening in their TvZs. Another topic: any advice on dealing with immortal busts? Seems to be on the upswing in the last month or so and I've lost to this a few times, making me very sad | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On August 18 2014 00:01 Gaskal wrote: I never got this impression at least from the pro scene. Hellbats were strong for a while and occasionally can still catch the zerg off guard, but more and more zergs are either going with that pesky roach timing or just straight up blind roaches. The banshee hellion opener will essentially give you map control up until mutalisks come out. During the Red Bull qualifiers all 3 Terran to qualify so far have often used some sort of hellion banshee opening in their TvZs. Another topic: any advice on dealing with immortal busts? Seems to be on the upswing in the last month or so and I've lost to this a few times, making me very sad Depends - are you talking about a one-base Immortal bust, likely proxied, or the two-base 6-gate Immortal/Sentry variation? One base requires a shit-ton of Bunkers, well-positioned, with half your SCVs ready to repair and constant Marine production from 3 Barracks. Two bases is a more interesting beast. It's very possible to get an early read on this with your standard Marine pokes at the front (multiple Gateway units and at least one Immortal at 6-8:00? Immortal bust or Templar). In either case, keeping up the bio production and going into 5-rax Bio/Mine with a later 3rd CC should put you in great position. It's still likely you need an extra Bunker or two, but positioning your Mines correctly will fuck his shit up SO much when he tries to break the front that your stimmed Bio + Medivacs should be able to do a cleanup. After that, it's pretty straightforward Bio-Mine parade and he never gets a third. | ||
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Gaskal
Canada241 Posts
I've had better success holding off the two base version as I'm able to see his army comp with the sentry. I'll usually lose the first bunker or two from FF but the rest of the bunkers and mines hold it OK. I die if I don't have the extra bunkers in time though. (I still think Flash could've taken game 1 vs Zest if he didn't push out from his natural and stayed near his bunker city for a while longer) | ||
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