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On August 08 2014 11:05 Gaskal wrote: So in this TvZ I snipe hatcheries multiple times, kill all his lings and banes and mutas and then like 20 ultras pop out, attack move me, and end the game. Jesus christ that burns my ass. How the hell do you deal with that many ultras?
power of zerg is in tech switches so you have to scout it be aware of it and prepare for it ahead of time. if you have mass marine and you have no idea ultras are coming then yes youll die. huge ultra switches require huge banks so you should have time to scout/guess it and prepare especially if youre doing so well that youre killing all his army and bases as you say
On August 08 2014 11:05 Gaskal wrote: So in this TvZ I snipe hatcheries multiple times, kill all his lings and banes and mutas and then like 20 ultras pop out, attack move me, and end the game. Jesus christ that burns my ass. How the hell do you deal with that many ultras?
Too broad of a question. Was he ahead in bases? Did you not see the ultras coming? Did a fungal catch half of your army? Not enough marauders?
On August 08 2014 11:05 Gaskal wrote: So in this TvZ I snipe hatcheries multiple times, kill all his lings and banes and mutas and then like 20 ultras pop out, attack move me, and end the game. Jesus christ that burns my ass. How the hell do you deal with that many ultras?
So depending on the map counter-attacking can be your #1 go-to response to seeing a lot of ultras, especially if you are maxed and don't have enough marauders and/or other units to deal with them. The key is to trade efficiently against the ultra army by stutter-stepping and picking the right engagements, making sure to get the most out of choke-points and high ground vision.
Your #1 priority to keep in mind while counter-attacking against big and scary armies is always to make sure your production facilities do not become vulnerable because if that happens, it's game over unless you have a huge bank and expansions all over the map.
Having a lot of orbitals and a low scv count will ensure your army size will most likely be bigger than his, granting you a clear advantage. Keep in mind that where you take the fight can either lose you a game in which you had a substantial lead, or can win you a game in which you were incredibly behind.
These are the most important facts in dealing with an ultra-based late game zerg army.
On August 08 2014 11:05 Gaskal wrote: So in this TvZ I snipe hatcheries multiple times, kill all his lings and banes and mutas and then like 20 ultras pop out, attack move me, and end the game. Jesus christ that burns my ass. How the hell do you deal with that many ultras?
So depending on the map counter-attacking can be your #1 go-to response to seeing a lot of ultras, especially if you are maxed and don't have enough marauders and/or other units to deal with them. The key is to trade efficiently against the ultra army by stutter-stepping and picking the right engagements, making sure to get the most out of choke-points and high ground vision.
Your #1 priority to keep in mind while counter-attacking against big and scary armies is always to make sure your production facilities do not become vulnerable because if that happens, it's game over unless you have a huge bank and expansions all over the map.
Having a lot of orbitals and a low scv count will ensure your army size will most likely be bigger than his, granting you a clear advantage. Keep in mind that where you take the fight can either lose you a game in which you had a substantial lead, or can win you a game in which you were incredibly behind.
These are the most important facts in dealing with an ultra-based late game zerg army.
Just to add my two cents to your answer (which is already good): - Dropping everywhere is a good way to stall if you killed all his mutas. Even if you don't do too much damage, it should give you enough time to get a healthy marauder count up, while maybe picking off a base or two, tech structure, drones, etc - If you have the ressources, I'd suggest building a wall off with barracks and supply depots at your latest bases. Ultras are huge, if you create small chokes with buildings through which only one or two ultras can go at the time, it won't matter if he has 4 or 25, as only 2-3 will be able to attack at a time. Be sure to focus fire the ones in the front down with your marauders, and you should be all good !
Are there any recent build order guides or vods for hellion/banshee openers in TvZ? Getting tired of 3cc openers and zergs are playing so greedy or all-in I need a build with more reliability. If someone can point me in the right direction, especially games that transition into bio play I would greatly appreciate it.
On August 08 2014 19:38 halpimcat wrote: Are there any recent build order guides or vods for hellion/banshee openers in TvZ? Getting tired of 3cc openers and zergs are playing so greedy or all-in I need a build with more reliability. If someone can point me in the right direction, especially games that transition into bio play I would greatly appreciate it.
On August 08 2014 19:38 halpimcat wrote: Are there any recent build order guides or vods for hellion/banshee openers in TvZ? Getting tired of 3cc openers and zergs are playing so greedy or all-in I need a build with more reliability. If someone can point me in the right direction, especially games that transition into bio play I would greatly appreciate it.
In retrospect after watching the replay it was some stupid macro-related decisions that killed me (+3/+3, extra barracks and 4th base were very late, also tech switch to mass raven far too early) even though my attacking strategy was sound.
The map was King Sejong; I basically managed to snipe the 4th, 5th, and 6th base multiple times while trading pretty well with the ling bane muta army (in fact he mismicroed and lost his entire flock to some Thor shots, causing him to go "LOL new thor" in-game). Even busted through rocks and sniped the natural...then the ultras all popped out at once and even though I immediately retreated through the mine trail back to the 4th it wasn't enough to kill the ultras. I killed maybe like half before the rest stomped me. But yeah I'll make sure to drop the extra barracks sooner and not forget +3/+3.
I was actually behind in econ and supply for most of the game despite the hatchery sniping - just trading so well with widow mine shots and microing bio that it made the zerg rage and think I was massively ahead. FML.
On August 09 2014 06:39 Barracuda8 wrote: I suck bad. I dont know how im gold. Maybe because other guys are worse than me.
I can't beat zergs. They expand way too fast and once they get roaches and mutas i'm screwed. Idk what to do.
You need to be more specific, this is a good example of a poor help request. Saying you have trouble TvZ because they expand faster and get roaches and mutas is too general and vague. You want to provide a replay, or at least focus on something in particular you are having trouble with.
On August 08 2014 19:38 halpimcat wrote: Are there any recent build order guides or vods for hellion/banshee openers in TvZ? Getting tired of 3cc openers and zergs are playing so greedy or all-in I need a build with more reliability. If someone can point me in the right direction, especially games that transition into bio play I would greatly appreciate it.
On August 08 2014 19:38 halpimcat wrote: Are there any recent build order guides or vods for hellion/banshee openers in TvZ? Getting tired of 3cc openers and zergs are playing so greedy or all-in I need a build with more reliability. If someone can point me in the right direction, especially games that transition into bio play I would greatly appreciate it.
I forgot about this guide! Maru's build is the only one that includes banshees though, and the builds feel much more "kill or die." I guess what I'm really looking for are pure control builds that allow for macro-oriented play back home. Also I love going CC-first in TvZ. Is there any reason why none of these builds show CC-first? Does it really delay the midgame timing by that much?
On August 08 2014 19:38 halpimcat wrote: Are there any recent build order guides or vods for hellion/banshee openers in TvZ? Getting tired of 3cc openers and zergs are playing so greedy or all-in I need a build with more reliability. If someone can point me in the right direction, especially games that transition into bio play I would greatly appreciate it.
On August 08 2014 19:38 halpimcat wrote: Are there any recent build order guides or vods for hellion/banshee openers in TvZ? Getting tired of 3cc openers and zergs are playing so greedy or all-in I need a build with more reliability. If someone can point me in the right direction, especially games that transition into bio play I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks, but the game is a little dated (pre hellbat and mine(?) changes) and he transitions into mech before bio. Good game though. [
I don't know, I still use that opener and I think you can tinker with it to become a viable bio transition.
Myself I'm getting BF hellion banshee into mech. But I'm sure you can skip the BF and just get your barracks down instead.
Yeah I'm sure it's still viable, but I'm too in love with cc first to shift away from that unless I'm playing a best of x. It's cool though, I've done some tinkering myself and figured out my own hellion banshee opening into bio transition after cc first. It's definitely not perfect, but I'm not looking to be a pro and I'm doing waaay better in tvz now. Matchups much more fun as well.
On August 10 2014 13:45 halpimcat wrote: I forgot about this guide! Maru's build is the only one that includes banshees though, and the builds feel much more "kill or die." I guess what I'm really looking for are pure control builds that allow for macro-oriented play back home. Also I love going CC-first in TvZ. Is there any reason why none of these builds show CC-first? Does it really delay the midgame timing by that much?
There aren't many games where pros go CC first into hellbats, so I was limited in my choice of build orders. Normally you don't see CC first builds with banshees because it delays the gas for so long, and by the time you will hit the Zerg should already be prepared for it.
On August 10 2014 13:45 halpimcat wrote: I forgot about this guide! Maru's build is the only one that includes banshees though, and the builds feel much more "kill or die." I guess what I'm really looking for are pure control builds that allow for macro-oriented play back home. Also I love going CC-first in TvZ. Is there any reason why none of these builds show CC-first? Does it really delay the midgame timing by that much?
There aren't many games where pros go CC first into hellbats, so I was limited in my choice of build orders. Normally you don't see CC first builds with banshees because it delays the gas for so long, and by the time you will hit the Zerg should already be prepared for it.
I see. Obviously my hellion/banshee openers will never outright kill the zerg unless they do something horribly wrong, but even if I'm not able to roast a lot of drones I feel pretty good going into the midgame; I can still force lots of useless units while being able to defend most all-ins. I'll try opening 12 rax/12 gas and see how much more damage I could do with that.
Hey guys, #1 platinum here. I'm going to ask something I haven't seen in some of the previous posts (although I apologize if that's been asked before). It's about upgrades so it might not be exclusive of terran strategy but perfaps there's some race-specific thingy I am missing.
I hear every time pros and casters speaking about upgrade advantage for x player. "If they engage now X is gonna win easily because he's 2-1 against 1-0 of his opponent blabla...". The thing is, when I play, I try to keep my upgrades on reasonable timings but I really don't know what their actual effect on a battle is. I probably win many fights because of upgrade advantage (and viceversa), but it is not something as easy to see as say a good army comp or positioning. I feel I upgrade my army because I have to, but I am a bit unaware of what I am actually doing. And realistically, people at my level, how often do you click on an enemy unit to check on their upgrades? I've been playing since 2011 and never done it, probably never will :-P
TL;DR: I'd like to get a tip on how upgrades work, why they are important and if there is a general timing for them regardless of the matchup.
My understanding of upgrades is the following. I'll try to keep it simple I'm on a phone
If you say you got
1 attack and 1 armor This means you deal 1 damage and remove one damage taken If you have +1 attack you deal 2 damage instead of 1 If you have +1 defence it means you remove 2 damage of the incoming enemy attack
On August 12 2014 15:59 noobPride wrote: Hey guys, #1 platinum here. I'm going to ask something I haven't seen in some of the previous posts (although I apologize if that's been asked before). It's about upgrades so it might not be exclusive of terran strategy but perfaps there's some race-specific thingy I am missing.
I hear every time pros and casters speaking about upgrade advantage for x player. "If they engage now X is gonna win easily because he's 2-1 against 1-0 of his opponent blabla...". The thing is, when I play, I try to keep my upgrades on reasonable timings but I really don't know what their actual effect on a battle is. I probably win many fights because of upgrade advantage (and viceversa), but it is not something as easy to see as say a good army comp or positioning. I feel I upgrade my army because I have to, but I am a bit unaware of what I am actually doing. And realistically, people at my level, how often do you click on an enemy unit to check on their upgrades? I've been playing since 2011 and never done it, probably never will :-P
TL;DR: I'd like to get a tip on how upgrades work, why they are important and if there is a general timing for them regardless of the matchup.
Thanks!
even pro players/casters don't always know the full effect of upgrades. nathanias is notoriously good for memorizing the math, but how they actually work across the board in terms of x unit vs y unit is actually quite complex and not everyone is an expert
there are three big concepts behind upgrades that you need to be aware of in my opinion 1) how many shots it takes to kill a unit. good examples are +1 attack zealots going from 3 hits to kill a zergling to 2 or +1 armor zerglings taking 2 baneling hits. this is something you really only figure out by doing the math yourself or having someone tell you the math for a specific scenario. some are commonly known like the ones i named, others are more obscure but still useful to know 2) the rate of fire/total damage of your unit's attack, good example is +3 attack for marines being incredibly powerful due to the marine's relatively low single-shot damage output but high rate of fire + stim. a good example of the opposite is armor upgrades in roach vs roach not mattering as much as attack because each shot does high damage at a slow rate of fire 3) once you start upgrading, always continue upgrading unless you're hitting an aggressive timing right after upgrades finish or trying to defend an attack and need to produce army to stay alive
as for timings, it's not the same in different matchups. terran is my weakest race so i cant go into detail for you about terran upgrade timings, but tvz where you usually go 3cc/2ebay is different from tvp where you might go fast +1 attack or tvt where upgrades might come in at unpredictable times based on what you're doing with your build, whether you're meching, etc.
p.s. you should start clicking on your opponent's units and checking their upgrades. i know it probably seems like some kind of fancy, technical pro player thing to do, but it's really not that complicated. if you click a zergling and you see it's on 2/2 and you know your 2/2 isn't done yet, obviously you want to delay the engagement. and that's kind of a big deal, particularly in tvz.
EPT
