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On August 02 2014 04:09 geokilla wrote:
Innovation did it in Code A and just stomped his toss opponents with scv pulls. 'No can defend!' You'd think a toss figured him out but nope just breezes right into Code S. Then Illusion does it, iaguz....seems to be on the rise lately. Why? Because it works and I don't want to fight 3/3 protoss on 4 bases.
SCV pulls can be really intricate and nuanced. There are a whole barrage of attacks that hit from around 13-14 minutes to even 18 minutes, which all come from production on 5 barracks, viking production (from 1 or 2 starports), with or without ghost academy, +2 upgrades, 3rd base, or even scvs at all. They range from Innovation's build to Bomber-esque 14 minute attacks with ~8 vikings and 3 ghosts to Jjakji's 17 minute maxed w/ ghosts and vikings scv pull timing. I've been working on developing an entire TvP style simply based around using good gamesense to know whether or not to bring scvs/build more rax and a fourth base, when to attack, whether or not to build a ghost academy, and have midgame drop play be built entirely around making it difficult for Protoss to deal with the one specific attack I think would work best (kill tech if you aren't going to push with 2/2 and ghosts, kill econ if you are doing a highly technical scv pull with little punch behind vikings/ghosts, etc.) It seems to me to be by far the best way to handle this matchup now.
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1/1 roaches.... I'm finding it incredibly prevalent in diamond on NA. At first it was catching me off guard without seeing it coming at all. Now i've learnt to read when it's coming but have had very limited success even if i know about it very early on.
My best games against it were when I went banshees after a standard repear opening and continued making banshees up to 3-4 to snipe off roaches in mid map when they move out. I've had zero success holding it when going for a 3CC build.
My question is about unit composition and if anyone knows what the ideal unit composition and build to go for when a) you know it's coming early or b) you scout it late (assuming a standard reaper into 3CC or banshee).
Then my next question would be the follow up against the roach hydra composition. What should be my game plan going into this phase of the game assuming after the 1/1 roach attack we evened out or one is slightly ahead of the other? Should I play defensively with bio tank? Maybe try to do some drops and abuse the immobility of his army? Should i be scanning the main to see when the hive is morphing and try to hit a big timing before Vipers?
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Is pure bio viable in TvT? Against mech I know yes, but against marine tanks? I really like to play it 
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On August 04 2014 20:55 SoSexy wrote:Is pure bio viable in TvT? Against mech I know yes, but against marine tanks? I really like to play it
I think it can be viable on wide open maps where you can always get large flanks.
Also, you have to stay very aggressive so he doesn't get a critical mass of tanks.
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I'd say no, as soon as any number of Tanks show up, you are fighting at a disadvantage.
The Marines can easily shoot down your Medivacs so there is no chance of dropping the Tanks.
The mobility advantage is minor, as your opponent can drop Marines as well.
Best option is likely to go Bio, keep a close eye on if your opponent is getting Tanks, and if so, get your own.
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On August 04 2014 20:55 SoSexy wrote:Is pure bio viable in TvT? Against mech I know yes, but against marine tanks? I really like to play it
It is but the effort of doing so is not worth it. You'll be extremely weak to any sort of tank contain.
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What is the best way to play Marine / Tank vs Marine / Tank anyway? You basically can't attack into an entrenched position and I feel that good marine rally / spreading does really well against drops. I feel it's like two dudes with pikes the the first one to make a move gets impaled or something.
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Myself I am playing mech only in TvT but from my marine tank days.
Either you get air supeority with vikings and reduce medivac count to get that extra vision.
Or you try to walk around him, attack where he isn't and be always have a safe spot to return to... If it makes any sense.
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That kind of makes sense, thanks.
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On August 04 2014 22:46 Incognoto wrote:
What is the best way to play Marine / Tank vs Marine / Tank anyway? You basically can't attack into an entrenched position and I feel that good marine rally / spreading does really well against drops. I feel it's like two dudes with pikes the the first one to make a move gets impaled or something.
At lower levels it is indeed like that.
At higher levels there are many micro tricks you can use to engage or pick away at the enemy army, as well as strategic tricks.
Attack where he isn't using drops and splitting your army. Try to control the center of the map for more flexibility. Positions with low tank counts or without marines to buffer for the tanks can be attacked with a good concave or you can drop on the tanks.
If he unsieges you can engage him when you have a better concave/army.
There's almost always an opening or something you can do to pierce his armor.
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On August 04 2014 20:45 Vies wrote:
1/1 roaches.... I'm finding it incredibly prevalent in diamond on NA. At first it was catching me off guard without seeing it coming at all. Now i've learnt to read when it's coming but have had very limited success even if i know about it very early on.
My best games against it were when I went banshees after a standard repear opening and continued making banshees up to 3-4 to snipe off roaches in mid map when they move out. I've had zero success holding it when going for a 3CC build.
My question is about unit composition and if anyone knows what the ideal unit composition and build to go for when a) you know it's coming early or b) you scout it late (assuming a standard reaper into 3CC or banshee).
Then my next question would be the follow up against the roach hydra composition. What should be my game plan going into this phase of the game assuming after the 1/1 roach attack we evened out or one is slightly ahead of the other? Should I play defensively with bio tank? Maybe try to do some drops and abuse the immobility of his army? Should i be scanning the main to see when the hive is morphing and try to hit a big timing before Vipers?
If you come out even against roach hydra, take your bases and play defensively with emphasis on keeping tanks alive. You can do lots of drops with low risk of losing them if you have good control, and then attack before vipers come out.
Roach hydra is really strong in smaller engagements especially when you don't have many tanks, but supply wise is not very efficient. The z player will want to have constant engagements, like a bio terran player in tvt.
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On August 04 2014 20:55 SoSexy wrote:Is pure bio viable in TvT? Against mech I know yes, but against marine tanks? I really like to play it
Can you win with it? Yes. But you would be handicapping yourself on most current maps.
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Yeah I die like 100% of the time I try to push out vs roach hydra with bio tank. You'd think I'd learn from my stupidity but nope. Roach hydra still can give me fits.
I find success if I 1.) Turtle off 4 bases with tanks, bunkers and bio and 2.) Hit and run with 2 groups of medevacs while 3.) Slowly transitioning to mass skyterran from supply lost in skirmishes.
Anything else results in death.
I still die if I don't start the drops fast enough, my tanks aren't spread and eat bad blinding clouds/chain yanks, I don't transition to skyterran fast enough etc. Damn you roach hydra.
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On August 04 2014 20:55 SoSexy wrote:Is pure bio viable in TvT? Against mech I know yes, but against marine tanks? I really like to play it
In a straight fight, pure bio will lose to marine tank pretty badly. You dont have any way to get rid of all his marines and he will just out dps you. This assumes that you went marine marauder, if you went marine only (dont do this) his tanks will shred you. Against marine tank you really need to go either pure mech or marine tank yourself.
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Hi!
I strugle a lot in TvT, where I FE into 3rax. The problem always is me getting dropped while my army is out of position. I started to use sensor towers more etc., but even if I have one, if I get doom dropped it doesnt really help, cause it takes time to reposition my army. When I push out, I get dropped and lose games even if my opponent doesnt play that well. He can leave his base absolutely undefended, without turrets, without sensor towers, not knowing where my army is and just push out and hope not to get dropped. I can also do that, but it is such a luck-based play, that there has to a some other way.
Here is a replay of my last TvT: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/5298651.
In TvZ, I strugle a lot with roach/hydra. I m aware of the fact, that they push out when their upgrades hit and that I should mass out tanks while playing defensively. It feels Im doing exactly that, but without any drops going on (which make my main army weaker if he would decide to take the engagement) he just macroes up and even if I take some good fights I lose afterwards cause of his strong economy.
Btw. how do you scout its roach/hydra and not just some roach aggresion into ling/muta? Cause I waste a lot of scans to find out and I think that is not the proper way to scout this.
Here is also a replay of what I m talking about: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/5298685.
I would really appreaciate any helpful advice. Thank you.
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One more, I realized that my TvT opening is not the best one. Can you please recommend me an opening, that is all-around safe, goes for a FE and transitiones into bio play? Thanks.
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On August 05 2014 21:39 onlyjuice wrote:
One more, I realized that my TvT opening is not the best one. Can you please recommend me an opening, that is all-around safe, goes for a FE and transitiones into bio play? Thanks.
Have you tried to check the terran help me thread ? Most of the things there, even though not the most recent, are still relevant in today's metagame.
Other than that, I'd say some kind of 1-1-1 opening with raven -> viking and a quick tank (with an expand squeezed in somewhere) should be what you are looking for, but I don't have any precise build... I usually just do stuff on the fly (at diamond level, it's enough). Such a build would give you the opportunity to go fast 3CC if you want, or to be aggressive with a marine tank viking force if the opponent goes 3CC and you like being the aggressor.
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I think the first post needs to be updated on how to defend against TvT Marine-Tank-Viking pushes when opening up fast Banshees. I always die to that and then the following mech transition, if I manage to somehow survive that push. Having said that, can someone teach me how to defend it? It's freaken strong.
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On March 14 2013 04:46 tisalgado wrote:
as a new terran player (used to play zerg), I never followed build orders... I've come up with some that work for me, but even them aren't set in stone... I don't know if it only works because I'm bad (platinum), but I'm used to play kind of reactively (as a zerg heritage)... but I feel that whenever I keep enough scout paths avaliable (scv > reaper > banshee/viking > scan) and keep my resources low, I'm safe... so even though I'm not playing "standard", it's standard enough for me not to fall behind in economy and not to be too greedy...
As I said, I don't follow builds, but I usually have up to 2 production facilities per base... (1 or 2 raxes on 1 base, 3 rax and 1 fac on 2 bases and 5-1-1 on 3)...
it varies according to how safe I feel, but that's usually how I roll...
edit: I usually play really aggressively, and don't add medivacs in early... only after a few engagements, usually (for I favor faster ups and a rather quick third base (I get to 2-2 on 2 gases))
I started it as a response to mau5mat, but I'll morph it into a question... how bad is my thought process?
I don't think it's "bad", per se, but Terran is not a race where you want to be aggressive ALL the time with. Dying from being overly aggressive - especially vs Protoss - has lost me a lot of games.
When you're Terran playing vs the other two races, it's more about when you're able to make a push (am I ahead in upgrades? is the zerg droning? do i have the right army comp?), where, and how safely are you able to retreat if things don't go your way.
Terran building timings are very important though so I definitely suggest you get a 'safe' opener for every matchup to start - just to get you used to the point in a game where you're faced with decision-making over transitions, reacting to enemy army comp etc. You want to be safe when that first banshee hits your mineral line, you want those first 2 hellions popping out at 6:30 to cover your natural wall in case of ling aggression, etc.
On August 05 2014 21:39 onlyjuice wrote:
One more, I realized that my TvT opening is not the best one. Can you please recommend me an opening, that is all-around safe, goes for a FE and transitiones into bio play? Thanks.
There's a nice 15-gas expand that I like to bust out.
10 – Supply Depot
12 – Barracks
15 – Refinery
16 – Marine (up to 2)
17 – Orbital Command
17 – Supply Depot
20 – @100% 2nd Marine, start Reactor on Barracks
20 – @400 Mins, start 2nd Command Center
21 – @100 Gas, start Factory
@100% Reactor, start constant Marine production
(if going banshee)
@50% Factory, 2nd Refinery
@100 Gas, start Starport
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On August 06 2014 03:52 geokilla wrote:
I think the first post needs to be updated on how to defend against TvT Marine-Tank-Viking pushes when opening up fast Banshees. I always die to that and then the following mech transition, if I manage to somehow survive that push. Having said that, can someone teach me how to defend it? It's freaken strong.
Could you elaborate on what he hits you with and when? Is it like 1-3 tanks, a smattering of marines, 1 viking + raven? Or more and at a later time in the game with a healthy viking count?
Assuming the former:
The guy's probably already sieging up your main or natural. You should always get 1 tank just for safety in case of early terran ground pushes - at which point you just continuously move it back when the vikings edge forward. Get air superiority (your starport is closer to the engagement in vikings - and then when his air is pushed back, get the banshee to work on the tanks while your tank line covers it from marines. (ForGG vs Strelok ro16, WCS 2013)
The reality is that the tanks take a while to straight up kill someone's base, and as long as you have tanks of your own they can't just unsiege and a-move up your ramp.
Assuming the latter:
GG!
Nah JK I just haven't figured a way to deal with this just yet, usually I just get pwned. But if he sunk that much into vikings you should have a decent tank count, and as long as you have scans he can't move his tank line forward.
In the meantime that's probably his whole army trying to contain you so just doomdrop his main?
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EPT
