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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On August 25 2014 22:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote:(In TvT) Is the 15 gas reactor cc still used nowadays? Feel like I dont see many people use it in games I watch, and KR server is predominantly gas first right now it seems... Also feeling like the 15 gas reactor cc leaves you with no info and I have to overdefend (but could be because I dont know all the timings and signs yet)  Eitherway it's definitely harder to play... I'm 9-6 with gas first openings and 4-8 with the 15 gas reactor build (and 3-1 with reaper opening, barely see anyone do that either atm).
I see INnoVation use it in a bunch of his VODs, but they might be a little old. A trend I have seen on KR is to go for an early doom drop. I have seen some people do this off a gas first raven expo, then getting tanks + medivacs and a CC behind it, and dropping with a vac full of marines and another vac full of x2 tanks, with the raven support.
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On August 25 2014 22:50 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2014 22:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote:(In TvT) Is the 15 gas reactor cc still used nowadays? Feel like I dont see many people use it in games I watch, and KR server is predominantly gas first right now it seems... Also feeling like the 15 gas reactor cc leaves you with no info and I have to overdefend (but could be because I dont know all the timings and signs yet) Eitherway it's definitely harder to play... I'm 9-6 with gas first openings and 4-8 with the 15 gas reactor build (and 3-1 with reaper opening, barely see anyone do that either atm). I see INnoVation use it in a bunch of his VODs, but they might be a little old. A trend I have seen on KR is to go for an early doom drop. I have seen some people do this off a gas first raven expo, then getting tanks + medivacs and a CC behind it, and dropping with a vac full of marines and another vac full of x2 tanks, with the raven support.
I'm not a pro, but I go 15 gas Reactor expand in every single TvT. There are a few things that I'm looking for with my scout, which I send out on about 14 supply:
1. Gas-first or Barracks? This allows me to narrow down what I might be facing. If it's gas-first, I will play defensively with Vikings, Hellions, and Marines until I get confirmation of expand or a second gas, in which case I likely add Tanks.
2. If it's a Barracks (especially with a wall-in), is it a Reaper or a Marine first? This tells me where to position my first 2 Marines to best deny scouting information.
3. If it was a Marine first, is it a single Marine or was it followed up by more, or a Reaper? Followed up by a Reactor after only 1 Marine typically means fast Hellions in my experience, and a delayed Reaper is a scouting tool.
4. If it was gas-first, your expansion Orbital Command timing works out so that as the Orbital Command finishes, you Scan to see if it's Banshees, Tanks, Ravens, Hellions, or some combination thereof. If it's just a Raven, I keep building lots of Hellions and Vikings. If I see Banshee + Cloak and another Tech Lab on the Factory, I swap my Factory back onto a Tech Lab and get a lot more Tanks and Marines to hold the attack.
5. Finally, always have a few units sharking around the map. Know where the good drop spots around your base are and post 1-2 Marines or other units directly in the path of those so that your opponent can't just blind doom-drop you for an automatic win. I tend to go mech, so I also invest heavily in a Turret ring and Sensor Tower. I concentrate on the most vulnerable sector first and go full ham with the Turrets there (I also float my Barracks as an advance spotter), and keep my Viking/Raven flock sharking around for any other stray Medivac groups.
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On August 24 2014 16:21 halpimcat wrote:
In TvT, what's the best way to play if you're going gas first cloak banshee and your opponent is going 15 gas? Usually what happens is my banshee doesn't do much because they get detection in time, I can't pressure them with my army because of the threat of drops (and more importantly, if we meet in the open their army is usually stronger than mine), and their faster CC means they're economically ahead. I'm having trouble finding some kind of advantage to push with this build order roulette situation.
Depends on how he defends and your respective transitions, but basically you should have an even game if you double expand behind your Cloak Banshee even if you don't achieve much in harass. You don't have to fear any drop before quite some time since his first air unit should be a Viking, and usually the second one is a Raven or a Cloak Banshee rather than a Medivac.
On August 25 2014 22:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote:(In TvT) Is the 15 gas reactor cc still used nowadays? Feel like I dont see many people use it in games I watch, and KR server is predominantly gas first right now it seems... Also feeling like the 15 gas reactor cc leaves you with no info and I have to overdefend (but could be because I dont know all the timings and signs yet) Eitherway it's definitely harder to play... I'm 9-6 with gas first openings and 4-8 with the 15 gas reactor build (and 3-1 with reaper opening, barely see anyone do that either atm).
It's still used from time to time, but currently 1-1-1 openings are all the rage—particularly in Korea I imagine. Gas 15 also synergizes better with a mech transition, and since the map pool is not mech-friendly this season it's only logical the opening is less used. Gas 15 is indeed somewhat blind before the ~6' scan. It's normal you have a harder time playing this, it takes a longer time to master reactive defensive builds since you have to learn a lot of different scenarii and you don't immediately control the pace of the game. Reaper openings are a bit more common than gas 15 since the Reaper removes the blind spot, but gas first is indeed the vast majority of TvT nowadays.
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
is it possible to do the 3rax stim timming vs Zerg?
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What're the maps to veto this season? Currently mine are:
-Deadwing
-Nimbus
-Foxtrot
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On August 27 2014 12:54 Gaskal wrote:
What're the maps to veto this season? Currently mine are:
-Deadwing
-Nimbus
-Foxtrot
I veto only deadwing and foxtrot. Deadwing is too large to be viable against Zerg and the bases are too easy for a bio player either against terran or protoss. I veto foxtrot for no reason other than I just don't like the map. I would disagree about nimbus though, I think it allows you to be fairly greedy against Protoss, and I think it is excellent vs. zerg as you always have a good rally push route set up, especially if you take the fourth closest to their bases. If you spawn counterclockwise of zerg you can also go drop crazy into their natural, and I don't think mutas are very strong on it. I don't see reasons to veto it right now.
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On August 27 2014 12:54 Gaskal wrote:
What're the maps to veto this season? Currently mine are:
-Deadwing
-Nimbus
-Foxtrot
I don't veto any of the maps. Deadwing is good vs zerg cause of the elevator at the 3rd and reaper entrances (also the highground 3rd is easy to defend vs roach hydra/other busts).
Foxtrot is great vs zerg because of the chokes and the rocks that make it hard for him to take his 3rd.
Some ppl don't like nimbus because of TvT shenanigans there (drops at the nat), and the awkward wall-off.
Overall if you adjust yourself all the maps are playable.
Foxtrot positions of top left-bottom right are very favored for terran in TvP as well (impossible to forcefield the entrance vs stim pushes, and reaper has a secondary entrance).
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On August 27 2014 08:46 SC2BF3Love wrote:
is it possible to do the 3rax stim timming vs Zerg?
No, you have to open helions.
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On August 27 2014 14:18 KoMA_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2014 08:46 SC2BF3Love wrote:
is it possible to do the 3rax stim timming vs Zerg? No, you have to open helions.
Not true, you can do 3 rax stim timing if you open 11-11 or 12-12 rax pressure, then transition into 3 rax stim timing. It is very risky thou if you get scouted really early.
Also you better have good micro if you do this.
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I really liked opening reapers in TvT on foxtrot, catallena and deadwing because the multiple entrances let you scout and adapt fairly easily to your opponents play, however I stopped using it because I ended up running into a lot of 2 rax reaper builds that just caught my first reaper and snowballed from there. Does anyone have any advice on how to stop 2 rax reaper plays when opening reaper yourself?
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On August 27 2014 08:46 SC2BF3Love wrote:
is it possible to do the 3rax stim timming vs Zerg?
I think you'd be very vulnerable to any kind of Baneling numbers.
Until either Tanks or Widow Mines are out, Bio trades horribly against Banelings, even with good micro.
Zerg can just afford to overmake Banelings and throw them at you.
The main advantage of Hellions is that Zerglings and Banelings trade poorly against them and that Hellions can easily retreat, allowing them to engage Zerg repeatedly without much risk.
Marines can't retreat as easily, making them a larger commitment than going for Hellions.
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On August 27 2014 16:38 Goofinator wrote:
I really liked opening reapers in TvT on foxtrot, catallena and deadwing because the multiple entrances let you scout and adapt fairly easily to your opponents play, however I stopped using it because I ended up running into a lot of 2 rax reaper builds that just caught my first reaper and snowballed from there. Does anyone have any advice on how to stop 2 rax reaper plays when opening reaper yourself?
You need to make sure to keep those first few units out of the barracks alive (you first reaper absolutely needs to stay alive or it's gg), pull a handful of scv if you have to. (Flash vs Bbyong, SanDisk Invitational, game 2 on Frost LE)
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On August 25 2014 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2014 22:50 mau5mat wrote:On August 25 2014 22:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote:(In TvT) Is the 15 gas reactor cc still used nowadays? Feel like I dont see many people use it in games I watch, and KR server is predominantly gas first right now it seems... Also feeling like the 15 gas reactor cc leaves you with no info and I have to overdefend (but could be because I dont know all the timings and signs yet) Eitherway it's definitely harder to play... I'm 9-6 with gas first openings and 4-8 with the 15 gas reactor build (and 3-1 with reaper opening, barely see anyone do that either atm). I see INnoVation use it in a bunch of his VODs, but they might be a little old. A trend I have seen on KR is to go for an early doom drop. I have seen some people do this off a gas first raven expo, then getting tanks + medivacs and a CC behind it, and dropping with a vac full of marines and another vac full of x2 tanks, with the raven support. I'm not a pro, but I go 15 gas Reactor expand in every single TvT. There are a few things that I'm looking for with my scout, which I send out on about 14 supply: 1. Gas-first or Barracks? This allows me to narrow down what I might be facing. If it's gas-first, I will play defensively with Vikings, Hellions, and Marines until I get confirmation of expand or a second gas, in which case I likely add Tanks. 2. If it's a Barracks (especially with a wall-in), is it a Reaper or a Marine first? This tells me where to position my first 2 Marines to best deny scouting information. 3. If it was a Marine first, is it a single Marine or was it followed up by more, or a Reaper? Followed up by a Reactor after only 1 Marine typically means fast Hellions in my experience, and a delayed Reaper is a scouting tool. 4. If it was gas-first, your expansion Orbital Command timing works out so that as the Orbital Command finishes, you Scan to see if it's Banshees, Tanks, Ravens, Hellions, or some combination thereof. If it's just a Raven, I keep building lots of Hellions and Vikings. If I see Banshee + Cloak and another Tech Lab on the Factory, I swap my Factory back onto a Tech Lab and get a lot more Tanks and Marines to hold the attack. 5. Finally, always have a few units sharking around the map. Know where the good drop spots around your base are and post 1-2 Marines or other units directly in the path of those so that your opponent can't just blind doom-drop you for an automatic win. I tend to go mech, so I also invest heavily in a Turret ring and Sensor Tower. I concentrate on the most vulnerable sector first and go full ham with the Turrets there (I also float my Barracks as an advance spotter), and keep my Viking/Raven flock sharking around for any other stray Medivac groups.
I'm curious as to how you defend a marine helion medivac attack of off gas first (a build I personnally use very often, and that often gives me straight up wins in under 7 minutes). 5 or 6 marines, 3 helions and a medivac can get really quick to your base.
Edit: I guess you do have a good amount of marines by the time this hits, and if you can deny the elevator and have a wall up, you should be ok... Is that it ?
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On August 27 2014 08:46 SC2BF3Love wrote:
is it possible to do the 3rax stim timming vs Zerg?
No, you're behind on every plan if Zerg scouts it and reacts correctly. See for instance Bomber vs TLO, Polar Night, IEM Sao Paulo or Bomber vs Sen, Merry, Taiwan Open; those were 3 rax CS timings instead of stim but the point still applies: Zerg defends with lings/Queens and either threatens a massive counter-bane bust or simply drones his third, remaining ahead in macro. You have little/no tool to tell the two answers apart. Even after 2 rax you're better using a Hellion transition if you want to play macro afterwards.
On August 27 2014 16:38 Goofinator wrote:
I really liked opening reapers in TvT on foxtrot, catallena and deadwing because the multiple entrances let you scout and adapt fairly easily to your opponents play, however I stopped using it because I ended up running into a lot of 2 rax reaper builds that just caught my first reaper and snowballed from there. Does anyone have any advice on how to stop 2 rax reaper plays when opening reaper yourself?
On August 27 2014 23:06 Gaskal wrote:
You need to make sure to keep those first few units out of the barracks alive (you first reaper absolutely needs to stay alive or it's gg), pull a handful of scv if you have to. (Flash vs Bbyong, SanDisk Invitational, game 2 on Frost LE)
This. Save your first units at all costs (shield them with a few SCVs as necessary), survive until your Hellions are there and you should be fine.
On August 27 2014 23:20 LoneYoShi wrote:
I'm curious as to how you defend a marine helion medivac attack of off gas first (a build I personnally use very often, and that often gives me straight up wins in under 7 minutes). 5 or 6 marines, 3 helions and a medivac can get really quick to your base.
Edit: I guess you do have a good amount of marines by the time this hits, and if you can deny the elevator and have a wall up, you should be ok... Is that it ?
If you somehow know he's doing exactly that, simply go Marines/Hellions yourself (i.e. land the Factory on the Reactor after 6 Marines) and you're impervious to the attack as you have 6 Marines, 4 Hellions and a Viking coming soon. If you go the Marine defence route it's more delicate but you should have enough of them to hold.
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On August 27 2014 23:20 LoneYoShi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2014 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:On August 25 2014 22:50 mau5mat wrote:On August 25 2014 22:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote:(In TvT) Is the 15 gas reactor cc still used nowadays? Feel like I dont see many people use it in games I watch, and KR server is predominantly gas first right now it seems... Also feeling like the 15 gas reactor cc leaves you with no info and I have to overdefend (but could be because I dont know all the timings and signs yet) Eitherway it's definitely harder to play... I'm 9-6 with gas first openings and 4-8 with the 15 gas reactor build (and 3-1 with reaper opening, barely see anyone do that either atm). I see INnoVation use it in a bunch of his VODs, but they might be a little old. A trend I have seen on KR is to go for an early doom drop. I have seen some people do this off a gas first raven expo, then getting tanks + medivacs and a CC behind it, and dropping with a vac full of marines and another vac full of x2 tanks, with the raven support. I'm not a pro, but I go 15 gas Reactor expand in every single TvT. There are a few things that I'm looking for with my scout, which I send out on about 14 supply: 1. Gas-first or Barracks? This allows me to narrow down what I might be facing. If it's gas-first, I will play defensively with Vikings, Hellions, and Marines until I get confirmation of expand or a second gas, in which case I likely add Tanks. 2. If it's a Barracks (especially with a wall-in), is it a Reaper or a Marine first? This tells me where to position my first 2 Marines to best deny scouting information. 3. If it was a Marine first, is it a single Marine or was it followed up by more, or a Reaper? Followed up by a Reactor after only 1 Marine typically means fast Hellions in my experience, and a delayed Reaper is a scouting tool. 4. If it was gas-first, your expansion Orbital Command timing works out so that as the Orbital Command finishes, you Scan to see if it's Banshees, Tanks, Ravens, Hellions, or some combination thereof. If it's just a Raven, I keep building lots of Hellions and Vikings. If I see Banshee + Cloak and another Tech Lab on the Factory, I swap my Factory back onto a Tech Lab and get a lot more Tanks and Marines to hold the attack. 5. Finally, always have a few units sharking around the map. Know where the good drop spots around your base are and post 1-2 Marines or other units directly in the path of those so that your opponent can't just blind doom-drop you for an automatic win. I tend to go mech, so I also invest heavily in a Turret ring and Sensor Tower. I concentrate on the most vulnerable sector first and go full ham with the Turrets there (I also float my Barracks as an advance spotter), and keep my Viking/Raven flock sharking around for any other stray Medivac groups. I'm curious as to how you defend a marine helion medivac attack of off gas first (a build I personnally use very often, and that often gives me straight up wins in under 7 minutes). 5 or 6 marines, 3 helions and a medivac can get really quick to your base. Edit: I guess you do have a good amount of marines by the time this hits, and if you can deny the elevator and have a wall up, you should be ok... Is that it ?
As Dwf said, yeah, I'm okay to defend it assuming my Marine/Hellion production is consistent. This is why the follow up scout + Scan is so crucial. You're looking for two add-ons: the Starport's and the Factory's. Both Tech Labs, I kick into Tank/Viking/Marine production. If the Factory is either naked or Reactor'd, I keep pumping Hellions as consistently as possible, get a Viking, a Raven, and then more Vikings, and just make sure I'm keeping the units positioned to shut down Marine/Hellion(Mine)/Medivac aggression.
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How do I scout 10 gate MSC aggression?
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On August 28 2014 06:59 Gaskal wrote:
How do I scout 10 gate MSC aggression?
You scout with SCV prior to your reaper, the timing of the scout is map dependent, but generally 14th SCV or after Barracks will let you know where the chrono is being spent, and how early the Gate is, or if there is a Zealot going to make its way across the map.
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On August 28 2014 01:52 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2014 23:20 LoneYoShi wrote:On August 25 2014 23:07 Jazzman88 wrote:On August 25 2014 22:50 mau5mat wrote:On August 25 2014 22:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote:(In TvT) Is the 15 gas reactor cc still used nowadays? Feel like I dont see many people use it in games I watch, and KR server is predominantly gas first right now it seems... Also feeling like the 15 gas reactor cc leaves you with no info and I have to overdefend (but could be because I dont know all the timings and signs yet) Eitherway it's definitely harder to play... I'm 9-6 with gas first openings and 4-8 with the 15 gas reactor build (and 3-1 with reaper opening, barely see anyone do that either atm). I see INnoVation use it in a bunch of his VODs, but they might be a little old. A trend I have seen on KR is to go for an early doom drop. I have seen some people do this off a gas first raven expo, then getting tanks + medivacs and a CC behind it, and dropping with a vac full of marines and another vac full of x2 tanks, with the raven support. I'm not a pro, but I go 15 gas Reactor expand in every single TvT. There are a few things that I'm looking for with my scout, which I send out on about 14 supply: 1. Gas-first or Barracks? This allows me to narrow down what I might be facing. If it's gas-first, I will play defensively with Vikings, Hellions, and Marines until I get confirmation of expand or a second gas, in which case I likely add Tanks. 2. If it's a Barracks (especially with a wall-in), is it a Reaper or a Marine first? This tells me where to position my first 2 Marines to best deny scouting information. 3. If it was a Marine first, is it a single Marine or was it followed up by more, or a Reaper? Followed up by a Reactor after only 1 Marine typically means fast Hellions in my experience, and a delayed Reaper is a scouting tool. 4. If it was gas-first, your expansion Orbital Command timing works out so that as the Orbital Command finishes, you Scan to see if it's Banshees, Tanks, Ravens, Hellions, or some combination thereof. If it's just a Raven, I keep building lots of Hellions and Vikings. If I see Banshee + Cloak and another Tech Lab on the Factory, I swap my Factory back onto a Tech Lab and get a lot more Tanks and Marines to hold the attack. 5. Finally, always have a few units sharking around the map. Know where the good drop spots around your base are and post 1-2 Marines or other units directly in the path of those so that your opponent can't just blind doom-drop you for an automatic win. I tend to go mech, so I also invest heavily in a Turret ring and Sensor Tower. I concentrate on the most vulnerable sector first and go full ham with the Turrets there (I also float my Barracks as an advance spotter), and keep my Viking/Raven flock sharking around for any other stray Medivac groups. I'm curious as to how you defend a marine helion medivac attack of off gas first (a build I personnally use very often, and that often gives me straight up wins in under 7 minutes). 5 or 6 marines, 3 helions and a medivac can get really quick to your base. Edit: I guess you do have a good amount of marines by the time this hits, and if you can deny the elevator and have a wall up, you should be ok... Is that it ? As Dwf said, yeah, I'm okay to defend it assuming my Marine/Hellion production is consistent. This is why the follow up scout + Scan is so crucial. You're looking for two add-ons: the Starport's and the Factory's. Both Tech Labs, I kick into Tank/Viking/Marine production. If the Factory is either naked or Reactor'd, I keep pumping Hellions as consistently as possible, get a Viking, a Raven, and then more Vikings, and just make sure I'm keeping the units positioned to shut down Marine/Hellion(Mine)/Medivac aggression.
OK, that makes sense. I'm always worried about the 1 base marine-helion elevator build when I fast expand, seeing how well it works when I use vs other players who fast expand (at diamond level). I generally only scan later (to confirm bio or mech after the 1-1-1 opening that everyone seems to do lately), so I think that's my main problem: I tend to be a bit too greedy when opening fast expo and that leaves me playing blind. I guess I don't have to be that greedy if I go for a fast expo, the additionnal CC putting me ahead already. I'll try that out !
Thanks for the tips Jazzman and TheDwf !
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I just saw a mirror build match at IEM Toronto today between LiquidTaeja & Liquid Bunny on Merry go round (TvT) where you get 2 tanks, roughly 8 marines, 2 medivacs and a raven (opening 1-1-1) and doom drop the opponent and drop turrets as well. QXC said it was quite popular on KR server. Do you guys have any build order for that ? I guess IEM will realease replays as usual a few days after the tournament.
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On August 30 2014 01:39 Universum wrote:
I just saw a mirror build match at IEM Toronto today between LiquidTaeja & Liquid Bunny on Merry go round (TvT) where you get 2 tanks, roughly 8 marines, 2 medivacs and a raven (opening 1-1-1) and doom drop the opponent and drop turrets as well. QXC said it was quite popular on KR server. Do you guys have any build order for that ? I guess IEM will realease replays as usual a few days after the tournament.
Yes.
Gas first raven.
You make 6 marines and then a CC, while building a reactor on your factory (after the raven).
Then you switch the factory to the techlab to make the tanks(and racks to the reactor), and you go 2x medivac vs non-banshee openings.
Or if you suspect a banshee go viking->2x medivac.
When you move out for the drop it's safe to add missile turrets at your main and natural just in-case of late banshee.
You can find replays of this in the final of Destiny I Apocalypse vs Innovation.
Innovation uses both variants of the build in the match, on Sejong and can't remember where else ( I think foxtrot).
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EPT
