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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On August 30 2014 02:13 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2014 01:39 Universum wrote:
I just saw a mirror build match at IEM Toronto today between LiquidTaeja & Liquid Bunny on Merry go round (TvT) where you get 2 tanks, roughly 8 marines, 2 medivacs and a raven (opening 1-1-1) and doom drop the opponent and drop turrets as well. QXC said it was quite popular on KR server. Do you guys have any build order for that ? I guess IEM will realease replays as usual a few days after the tournament. Yes. Gas first raven. You make 6 marines and then a CC, while building a reactor on your factory (after the raven). Then you switch the factory to the techlab to make the tanks(and racks to the reactor), and you go 2x medivac vs non-banshee openings. Or if you suspect a banshee go viking->2x medivac. When you move out for the drop it's safe to add missile turrets at your main and natural just in-case of late banshee. You can find replays of this in the final of Destiny I Apocalypse vs Innovation. Innovation uses both variants of the build in the match, on Sejong and can't remember where else ( I think foxtrot).
Thank you !
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Bosnia-Herzegovina27 Posts
TvZ is by far my worst game. I feel there's nothing i can do.
I once tried Marine-Hellion push into Banshe push and it worked well against a couple of guys, but that's it. Now i downloaded and saw that amazing game between Val and DiMaga and i tried to execute it. I kinda contain Lings/banes and some ultras. But then he came with Corruptors and Broodlords and my army died almost straight away. I know is my fault because i shouldn't have let him Broodlords and Corruptors, I tried to use some Ravens and Vikings but it didnt work for me. I know takes a lot of practice, but is frustrating to keep losing against decent zerg players and i'm so afraid that sometimes i dont want to push with either hellions or rines drops.
I'm in the gold league btw..
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Whats the build for the 2 medivac tankdrop opening in TvT these days?
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On August 30 2014 21:59 Bodzilla wrote:
Whats the build for the 2 medivac tankdrop opening in TvT these days?
It was posted one page ago :D
On August 30 2014 02:13 Bulugulu wrote:.
Gas first raven.
You make 6 marines and then a CC, while building a reactor on your factory (after the raven).
Then you switch the factory to the techlab to make the tanks(and racks to the reactor), and you go 2x medivac vs non-banshee openings.
Or if you suspect a banshee go viking->2x medivac.
When you move out for the drop it's safe to add missile turrets at your main and natural just in-case of late banshee.
You can find replays of this in the final of Destiny I Apocalypse vs Innovation.
Innovation uses both variants of the build in the match, on Sejong and can't remember where else ( I think foxtrot).
here's the exact build order:
+ Show Spoiler +
10 Depot
12 Gas
13 Rax
16 Orbital Command
16 Marine (nonstop production)
16 Factory
17 Depot
19 2nd Gas
@100% Factory, Starport
@25 Gas, Techlab on Factory
24 Depot
@100% Starport, swap onto Techlab
Start Raven
-------Above is gas first raven build---------
Make 1 Hellion for map control
@100% Hellion, Reactor on Factory
@100% Raven, swap Barracks onto Reactor, Swap Factory on Techlab, start Command Center
Start double marine and tank production and 1 medivac at a time
@100% 2tanks/2medivacs drop
Benchmarks: 2nd Medivac should finish by 8:00
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how do I not let my Zerg opponent get too much map control and become unstoppable? Recently I've been trying to go reaper expand into hellions into MMMT, put in my initial 4 hellion poke can't seem to do any damage because their ling count can overpower me and I can't punish them if they built a third. From then on, it feels like i'm fighting an uphill battle as they outmacro me. I can't do drops because I'm afraid of losing my medivacs to mutalisks and I can win any fights when I push out with my army. I just feel anchored to my 3 bases. Can anyone help me on how to prevent a zerg from getting too much early on?
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You'll trade so much better in the early game pushes if you don't lose the hellions right away. Instead of sacrificing them into the natural to get a couple of drones keep them for your initial push when your first two medivacs pop.
This is also a good time to drop as mutas aren't likely to be out quite yet so you don't really need to worry about that threat.
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On August 30 2014 08:37 Barracuda8 wrote:
TvZ is by far my worst game. I feel there's nothing i can do.
I once tried Marine-Hellion push into Banshe push and it worked well against a couple of guys, but that's it. Now i downloaded and saw that amazing game between Val and DiMaga and i tried to execute it. I kinda contain Lings/banes and some ultras. But then he came with Corruptors and Broodlords and my army died almost straight away. I know is my fault because i shouldn't have let him Broodlords and Corruptors, I tried to use some Ravens and Vikings but it didnt work for me. I know takes a lot of practice, but is frustrating to keep losing against decent zerg players and i'm so afraid that sometimes i dont want to push with either hellions or rines drops.
I'm in the gold league btw..
Which means it's probably a macro issue. Try the staircase method to improve some of that. Just a few games can help you see holes in your macro play that will get you on the right track. Ideally, at the stage in a game where they can transition to corruptor brood lord, if that's something which happens commonly, you'd want 2-3 starports, 1 reactored and 2 tech lab, allows you to push 2 medivac 2 banshee, transitioning into 4 viking production. The micro issue probably also comes with a lack of upgrades issue. Air and ground unit upgrades for mech were combined into the same attack and armor upgrades to make it cheaper and faster for Terran to swap from ground to air units. If you have those upgrades, a switch will do a lot better, and it improves those banshees or medivacs you're using (depending on armor or weapon upgrades of course and your overall plan). Its likely that he wasn't upgrading both ground and air forces, so if he was banking on the ground force, any tech switch to air should be vastly inferior to those vikings with upgrades.
Apart from that, it's a micro issue. Vikings have superior range to corruptors, which allows kiting/stutter step. Did you use PDD? I'd probably go with HSM, because it forces more of the micro on his part to be spent controlling units so they dont die, if he is better than simply letting HSM hit or running out of range so they fizzle. On the two latter points, if they hit, your vikings have been given a huge lead in dealing with the corruptor ball, and if they all run away, then it's free hits on them or the brood lords.
Apart from that, simply stim mass marines and run under the brood lords and target fire them down. You said you had marine hellion, so you could try BFH upgrade, hellbat, medivac, and stim marines to focus down the brood lords. Those hellbats would provide quick kills on the broodlings, keeping your marines from being killed as quickly or from being blocked from running in. If marine strat vs brood lords, engage in as open a space as possible or flanking in order to get under them and corruptors can largely be ignored.
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On September 01 2014 08:14 rccars wrote:
how do I not let my Zerg opponent get too much map control and become unstoppable? Recently I've been trying to go reaper expand into hellions into MMMT, put in my initial 4 hellion poke can't seem to do any damage because their ling count can overpower me and I can't punish them if they built a third. From then on, it feels like i'm fighting an uphill battle as they outmacro me. I can't do drops because I'm afraid of losing my medivacs to mutalisks and I can win any fights when I push out with my army. I just feel anchored to my 3 bases. Can anyone help me on how to prevent a zerg from getting too much early on?
tbh if zerg has enough lings to crush your hellion force immediately then you already slowed his econ due to lack of droning. most zergs want to play just on the edge of enough to defend with like 3 queens + a few packs of lings. as the 3rd is established yes zerg will pop enough lings to overwhelm you but by then you should have killed a few creep tumors and gotten some scouting done, maybe sniped some lings while kiting, etc. if they just make a bunch of fast speedlings then you just play very cautious with the hellions and try to maintain map vision and maybe check outside your natural for baneling busts
just don't try to do too much, focus on minor fundamentals like "im going to try to snipe at least one creep tumor with these hellions" or "im looking for roaches right now" and then try to do more and more as your skill and experience allow. most likely you are just playing zergs who are further along with their macro play than you, so dont sweat it if you get overwhelmed, it happens in every matchup when youre learning
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On September 01 2014 08:14 rccars wrote:
how do I not let my Zerg opponent get too much map control and become unstoppable? Recently I've been trying to go reaper expand into hellions into MMMT, put in my initial 4 hellion poke can't seem to do any damage because their ling count can overpower me and I can't punish them if they built a third. From then on, it feels like i'm fighting an uphill battle as they outmacro me. I can't do drops because I'm afraid of losing my medivacs to mutalisks and I can win any fights when I push out with my army. I just feel anchored to my 3 bases. Can anyone help me on how to prevent a zerg from getting too much early on?
If you're on 2 bases that's equivalent to zerg's 3 (3 for 4, vice versa), so you're not behind. You essentially get the fast 3rd CC out in order to force aggression (most maps it's pretty easy to secure the 3rd by the time you gotta land it) or the zerg to take a 4th. The TvZ 2-2 timings are meant to hit that 4th like a hurricane while you have the upgrade advantage, the econ to support the reinforcement train, and zerg is transitioning from lair tech /droning up the last base. Zerg needs to spend a massive load of gas to hold it off and if they lose that 4th they can't transition effectively into Hive and it's GG.
You turtle early and save the aggression for later. How early the zerg takes their gas will decide on how aggressive you should be with your reaper-hellion force. If I see fast gas I'll just check the queen count and then head home.
Most of the time I'll use the hellion-reapers just to kill active creep tumors and scurry away when the lings charge forward. If they're greedy or stupid I charge into the main and suicide for like 12-15 drone kills.
Vs zerg you have to be aggressive - maybe not like balls to the wall aggressive but be clearing creep, threatening with drops etc to slow down droning. Prevent them from droning!
If they build enough lings that early to overwhelm 2 reapers and 6-8 hellions, that's like 3-4 full injects worth dumped ALL on lings. So if you just go back home and turtle and make faces at the lings he has to drone again. Tech to medevacs and annoy him until mutas are out. Or, if you're an asshole like me, focus the spire down. Drives them nuts.
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Hi, it's been about a year more or less since I played 1v1, and was wondering what the standard or popular matchups for each race were these days. I was around top platinum when I stopped. For reference here were the builds I used then:
TvP: DeMuslim's fast engy into bio
TvT: ForGG hellions / viking / raven into mech
TvZ: CC first or fast 3CC into bio mine
What are the best sources for finding the latest builds?
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On September 02 2014 22:27 teuthida wrote:
Hi, it's been about a year more or less since I played 1v1, and was wondering what the standard or popular matchups for each race were these days. I was around top platinum when I stopped. For reference here were the builds I used then:
TvP: DeMuslim's fast engy into bio
TvT: ForGG hellions / viking / raven into mech
TvZ: CC first or fast 3CC into bio mine
What are the best sources for finding the latest builds?
I guess someone didn't read the OP properly !
Guidelines:
Don't ask the same questions that are in the OP
General: (Very first topic of the OP)
What are the standard recommended strategies per match-up?
-- I think you might get a warning/ban for this post 
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On September 02 2014 22:27 teuthida wrote:
Hi, it's been about a year more or less since I played 1v1, and was wondering what the standard or popular matchups for each race were these days. I was around top platinum when I stopped. For reference here were the builds I used then:
TvP: DeMuslim's fast engy into bio
TvT: ForGG hellions / viking / raven into mech
TvZ: CC first or fast 3CC into bio mine
What are the best sources for finding the latest builds?
My tip for latest builds, imbabuilds, I'm way too much of a noob (especially at T xD) to really give you any other advice what so ever.
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I guess someone didn't read the OP properly ! Guidelines:Don't ask the same questions that are in the OP General: (Very first topic of the OP) What are the standard recommended strategies per match-up? -- I think you might get a warning/ban for this post
Ah, I last checked the OP a few weeks ago, and the builds hadn't been updated in a while (I usually just go to the last post in this thread to look for updates). I see now they recently were. Sorry for the rule violation.
Shuffleblade, thanks, I do check there, but it is hard to tell what builds are still in use / viable sometimes
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Heyjo
I heared QXC at IEM talking about a TvT strat where you drop 2 tank 8 marines with 2 medics and set autoturrets with the raven. This is a gas first build. Is there a BO, maybe with Replay/VOD? I really would like to try this Build
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On August 30 2014 22:24 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2014 21:59 Bodzilla wrote:
Whats the build for the 2 medivac tankdrop opening in TvT these days?
It was posted one page ago :D Show nested quote +On August 30 2014 02:13 Bulugulu wrote:.
Gas first raven.
You make 6 marines and then a CC, while building a reactor on your factory (after the raven).
Then you switch the factory to the techlab to make the tanks(and racks to the reactor), and you go 2x medivac vs non-banshee openings.
Or if you suspect a banshee go viking->2x medivac.
When you move out for the drop it's safe to add missile turrets at your main and natural just in-case of late banshee.
You can find replays of this in the final of Destiny I Apocalypse vs Innovation.
Innovation uses both variants of the build in the match, on Sejong and can't remember where else ( I think foxtrot).
here's the exact build order: + Show Spoiler +
10 Depot
12 Gas
13 Rax
16 Orbital Command
16 Marine (nonstop production)
16 Factory
17 Depot
19 2nd Gas
@100% Factory, Starport
@25 Gas, Techlab on Factory
24 Depot
@100% Starport, swap onto Techlab
Start Raven
-------Above is gas first raven build---------
Make 1 Hellion for map control
@100% Hellion, Reactor on Factory
@100% Raven, swap Barracks onto Reactor, Swap Factory on Techlab, start Command Center
Start double marine and tank production and 1 medivac at a time
@100% 2tanks/2medivacs drop
Benchmarks: 2nd Medivac should finish by 8:00
Can people stop asking about this BO all the time....
EDIT:
changed my tone to a kinder one.
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OK, real question here. How on earth do you close out a game in TvT and how on earth do you attack into marine/tank. it doesn't matter if you have a maxed terran army supply, if you throw that into a tank line you're just going to lose. I have no idea how to work around tanks generally speaking. marauders? unsieged tanks?
do i need lots of vikings? :i
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On September 03 2014 02:39 Incognoto wrote:
OK, real question here. How on earth do you close out a game in TvT and how on earth do you attack into marine/tank. it doesn't matter if you have a maxed terran army supply, if you throw that into a tank line you're just going to lose. I have no idea how to work around tanks generally speaking. marauders? unsieged tanks?
Marine/tank vs Marine/tank is all about positioning. Generally if you see your opponent going marine/tank when you are using that same composition you do not want to make Marauders. Marauders are for when you see your opponent going mech when you are sticking with bio. Without tank fire accounted for stimmed Marines only will decimate Marines/Marauders mixed together because of the ridiculous Marine DPS.
One build that has been very popular recently that I recommend is a relatively defensive fast expansion build that gets aggressive with a 2 tank double medivac drop with Marine support in the second medivac. Obviously you need to play it conservatively and AT LEAST know that the drop will get down without immediately losing the medivacs to mines or vikings or turrets.
Marine/tank vs Marine/tank is very micro intensive in my opinion. You need to know how and when to attack a siege line with spread out Marines to eventually win. Your goal is to constantly trade marines for tanks so that you can eventually take a siege tank count lead and break him. Contains are strong in Marine/tank vs Marine/tank. You'll want to defend at home with reinforcements so as to not lose to a doom drop while containing the opponent on a certain position to make it difficult for them to expand. While you do this you will want to expand yourself and use your map positioning and control to gain an economic advantage where the trading out of marines for the tanks will be killer on your opponents lower gas income.
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On September 03 2014 02:39 Incognoto wrote:
OK, real question here. How on earth do you close out a game in TvT and how on earth do you attack into marine/tank. it doesn't matter if you have a maxed terran army supply, if you throw that into a tank line you're just going to lose. I have no idea how to work around tanks generally speaking. marauders? unsieged tanks?
Unless you have pretty overwhelming numbers or an upgrade advantage and slightly larger numbers, you're not going to be able to break a defending Marine / Tank army with Marine / Tank. Your best option to win the game with a superior army is to go for a doom drop into his production, if you scan ahead this is pretty much risk free.
The option I typically play out is to just be active with my army (as in moving to different vulnerable spots where my opponent isn't, really kind of map dependent but generally natural / third / cliffs into main ect), making sure my opponent can't expand while I increase my own production + turrets at home.
If you're in an even position where your armies are stalemated in the middle of the map, you need to use drops / runbyes to try to pull your opponent's army away so you can move forward with a positional advantage. Also make sure to keep an eye on your opponent's army, if he keeps reinforcing he might eventually get a big enough army to attack into yours, or if he pulls too much of his army away to drop you might be able to crush his.
In terms of micro for Marine / Tank vs Marine / Tank, it's mostly just splitting your marines, except you typically want to split mostly to the sides and slightly towards your opponent rather than backwards, and it's extremely important that you dont have the marines not attacking while being fired upon for any significant period of time. You also want to target fire clumps of marines with your tanks when opportunities arise. It's hard to explain properly, just watch some pro Terran streams.
edit: Bleh, it's honestly too hard to explain concisely, and deserving of it's own article.
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That was a really nice response though, I think it clarified things a lot; I'll know what my goals will be next time I play Marine / tank vs marine / tank, thanks to your post and Grizvok's post.
I'm not good at dropping so I'm guessing the next skill I'll be looking at is learning to drop. Not to drop on top of marine/tank, more learn to drop generally speaking and using that to pull enemy units away from a good position.
Things are a bit more clear in my head now, I have ideas to work with, unlike before where I went full-foreigner on siege lines. Thanks!
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EPT
