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On September 10 2014 21:49 Incognoto wrote:I have a question about reaper expand in TvP. Should I aim for bunker before CC? Or should I rely on micro to hold off zealot / stalker / msc poke? Replay relevant http://drop.sc/385910
You have to scout with an SCV to detect any sort of 10 gate MSC pressure - the SCV that finishes the barracks gets sent out and usually the pathing will pass any aggressively rallied zealot so you can react.
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On September 11 2014 02:20 Gaskal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 21:49 Incognoto wrote:I have a question about reaper expand in TvP. Should I aim for bunker before CC? Or should I rely on micro to hold off zealot / stalker / msc poke? Replay relevant http://drop.sc/385910 You have to scout with an SCV to detect any sort of 10 gate MSC pressure - the SCV that finishes the barracks gets sent out and usually the pathing will pass any aggressively rallied zealot so you can react.
That makes sense to me, thanks. All these little details I need to work on!
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Having trouble reading the 12pool speed into 1-1 roach push with speed. It has so much denial potential early on and it is so hard to detect until it is too late.
Any advice?
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Depending on your opening pull an earlier scout to see pool timing.
Keep active on the map to see his roaches an possibly roach warrant.
If you open banshe it's easy to scout the 1-1 roach.
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On September 09 2014 23:50 Gaskal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 03:04 Razac wrote:
Could anyone help me with finding a good opening build for TvT? One that sets me for strength in the mid-game preferably.
Since I really Flash and Maru it would be a big plus if there would be a game of them playing it.
PS.
I like having different opening for 2/3/4 player maps respectively. Flash goes for the greediest possible safe expansion (Merry Go Round vs Taeja, IEM) which is a reaper FE. He uses the reaper purely to scout the build Taeja is going for and modifies his build as needed; he immediately goes into reactored hellion and viking production to counteract any sort of elevatored marine-hellion play, and if he detects any sort of tank pressure he simply cranks out more hellions and drops the earlier armory to turn them into hellbats (King Sejong, Taeja, IEM semis) Even if he loses the reaper he's not opposed to making another one just to get that important scout in. Flash seems to like mech vT.
Thanks I'm going to check out that replay!
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On September 11 2014 13:45 vult wrote:
Having trouble reading the 12pool speed into 1-1 roach push with speed. It has so much denial potential early on and it is so hard to detect until it is too late.
Any advice?
I religiously SCV scout just to see how early and in what order the zerg takes his:
-Hatchery
-Pool
-Gas #1
So if the zerg goes some sort of combination of Gas/Pool before Hatchery, you know that this is an aggressive build. If it's gas first, you won't be able to complete the natural wall off in time, so: just lift back to the main, wait with your hellions on the ramp until 6 are out while the lings pace around the natural.
The longer you have to wait to clear them away - the more larvae he committed to that attack, so as long as you're still building SCV from both CC's you should be ahead in economy.
As for scouting the roach timing, just poke in with your hellion/reaper force and see what units he defends with and if upgrades are researching on his evo chamber wall. I've been going with a medevac filled with marines first over a viking just so I can annoy them and see what they're teching, lair timing etc. If you see all 3 of the roach warren and both evos researching at the same time - get tanks and ~3 extra bunkers.
If the roach attack fails, take your 3rd and mine as much from it as you can, secure the area between 3rd and natural with more bunkers and siege tanks (the next timing he'll likely try is a 2-2 roach hydra push) and upgrade.
Oh, and don't move out vs roach hydra unless you're 100% sure you can end the game with that push - just annoy the bejesus out of him with drops everywhere.
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^That was a nice post, thanks for that. Does a good job of knowing what to look for when you scout zerg.
E: OK next question. Imagine I do reaper expand in TvT, into the 4 hellion, reaper, 4 marine drop. this is a 2 base poke which is supposed to do damage. if I scout him going for a gas-first 1 base marine / tank push, what's the best answer? all my infrastructure is set up to make harass units, not beefy tank units like marine / tank.
banshee perhaps? i hardly have the gas
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On September 12 2014 00:20 Incognoto wrote:
^That was a nice post, thanks for that. Does a good job of knowing what to look for when you scout zerg.
E: OK next question. Imagine I do reaper expand in TvT, into the 4 hellion, reaper, 4 marine drop. this is a 2 base poke which is supposed to do damage. if I scout him going for a gas-first 1 base marine / tank push, what's the best answer? all my infrastructure is set up to make harass units, not beefy tank units like marine / tank.
banshee perhaps? i hardly have the gas
Even though I gave you advice earlier in this thread I must admit to being REALLY bad against aggressive all in-ish type play. I personally lose a lot of early game TvT due to tank pushes. With that said...
One of the main things I've noticed that is extremely important is map control. You aren't going to be doing too much damage to your opponent if he is doing a one-base play unless he really sucks with his unit control. Defending one base from drops should be cake for most decent players as he is unlikely to move out until his force is pretty scary for an early game army. So don't focus on damage, but instead focus on mitigating your own at this stage.
Also, with an expansion up against a one-basing opponent your thought should be defend defend defend at least until you deflect his attack and can begin taking the advantage with your superior economy. I think it'd be wise to keep your Marine/Medivac/Hellion force active out on the map to spot his move out as well as the likely positioning of his first attack. I also think a Viking can be very important for having some scouting as well as trying to deny high ground vision.
The question of yours I answered earlier was about how TvT is about positioning, and this is absolutely no different. Your ability to recognize his angle toward your base and to read where he will probably siege up is crucial in finding an effective place to mount your defense.
Unit composition wise I have no idea what is best. I guess these are more strategies than a build or composition.
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On September 12 2014 00:20 Incognoto wrote:
^That was a nice post, thanks for that. Does a good job of knowing what to look for when you scout zerg.
E: OK next question. Imagine I do reaper expand in TvT, into the 4 hellion, reaper, 4 marine drop. this is a 2 base poke which is supposed to do damage. if I scout him going for a gas-first 1 base marine / tank push, what's the best answer? all my infrastructure is set up to make harass units, not beefy tank units like marine / tank.
banshee perhaps? i hardly have the gas
To be honest, you should seriously consider shifting into tank production instead of hellions if he's doing a 1-base marine/tank. You're the one who's going to have 2 bases, so his delayed nat means you don't need to be doing damage. You just want to hold. You should also be able to scout his 1-base intentions before you ever complete production of any hellions, so that should tip you off to put your factory on a tech lab.
The minerals it takes to make 4 hellions is easily shifted to a tank, bunker, and 3 marines to fill the bunker. I'll let you consider which set is better suited to holding a 1-base attack. 
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On September 12 2014 00:20 Incognoto wrote:
^That was a nice post, thanks for that. Does a good job of knowing what to look for when you scout zerg.
E: OK next question. Imagine I do reaper expand in TvT, into the 4 hellion, reaper, 4 marine drop. this is a 2 base poke which is supposed to do damage. if I scout him going for a gas-first 1 base marine / tank push, what's the best answer? all my infrastructure is set up to make harass units, not beefy tank units like marine / tank.
banshee perhaps? i hardly have the gas
If you know he is going for 1 base marine tank push, screw the harass units and just expand and get tanks out yourself and defend on 2 bases and then counter drop some units once he hits your front if you are confident you can hold. If you have more vikings and a raven you can zone out his tanks with ease and macro up and be ahead. Don't forget you can repair your own vikings to make sure you win.
On some maps it can be difficult but on a map like overgrowth you can hold 2 bases quite easily since there is really only one attack point. Your infrastructure is set up exactly the same as their base is, you need tanks to hold unless you go a crazy amount of hellions and meet him in the field but I don't think that is a good idea with a reaper opening as you wont have the hellion count to prevail.
Even if you go for a marine hellion elevator like you describe you should be able to either cripple his base or delay him long enough at home defending to get out the relevant tanks and even a bunker at home to defend. Scv pulls can work in those moments where you don't have much defend and his base is being ransacked by your drop
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On September 12 2014 00:20 Incognoto wrote:
^That was a nice post, thanks for that. Does a good job of knowing what to look for when you scout zerg.
E: OK next question. Imagine I do reaper expand in TvT, into the 4 hellion, reaper, 4 marine drop. this is a 2 base poke which is supposed to do damage. if I scout him going for a gas-first 1 base marine / tank push, what's the best answer? all my infrastructure is set up to make harass units, not beefy tank units like marine / tank.
banshee perhaps? i hardly have the gas
As I mentioned earlier, the point of that reaper in the reaper FE is to scout exactly what the other terran is teching and the timing of their expansion.
If you scout no expansion by the time you take yours, hop up into the main and check:
-1 gas? 2 gas?
-What addons are on the rax/fact/starport and are they building something? You can instantly tell what tech he's going for.
-What units are trying to chase your reaper down?
But with a reaper FE vs gas first aggression (which is what I like to do) your objective is to stay at home and defend while your economy kicks in. Not to harass. You're already ahead - the pressure is on the other guy to get something done since your expand beats his.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina27 Posts
Its me again..
I don't really know what else to do against Zergs. My worst MU in the whole game. Today i only won 1 from 4 games against Zergs.
Game one:
I tried to do full bio (MMM) but my APM is just too slow to split my marines (My apm in Marine split challenge is around 75-85) and they will just kill me with a bunch of lings. I think than that game didnt last more than 12 mins or so. Definetely pure bio is not for me.
Game 2:
I went full mech this time (tanks, thors and some marines to drop while i attacked his natural with my tanks) .
Game 3:
I tried to do the usual fast expand but he killed me in a while bringing 15 zerglings or so in the first 5-8 minutes. I only had a bunker tho. However I never knew how to contain that kind of push, And that was the reason why i didnt try fast expand against Zergs in the past, because i tried to build tanks before i get my expo.
There are a couple of games i played but i don't count those because i lost because i was too nervous and i made stupid mistakes against them.
I kinda know what to do against Toss. I try to end the game before the first 15 mins,
I know how to deal with almost every terran strategy. I think i only lost 1 game against a terran today.
But against Zerg.. I really dont know. I cant deal with them. They can easily get mutas around 10 mins or so. And i know is my fault because i dont push or harass them..
What can i do? It is very frustrating for me and i feel i wont leave gold league.
Sorry for the long message.
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On September 14 2014 12:56 Barracuda8 wrote:
Its me again..
I don't really know what else to do against Zergs. My worst MU in the whole game. Today i only won 1 from 4 games against Zergs.
Game one:
I tried to do full bio (MMM) but my APM is just too slow to split my marines (My apm in Marine split challenge is around 75-85) and they will just kill me with a bunch of lings. I think than that game didnt last more than 12 mins or so. Definetely pure bio is not for me.
Game 2:
I went full mech this time (tanks, thors and some marines to drop while i attacked his natural with my tanks) .
Game 3:
I tried to do the usual fast expand but he killed me in a while bringing 15 zerglings or so in the first 5-8 minutes. I only had a bunker tho. However I never knew how to contain that kind of push, And that was the reason why i didnt try fast expand against Zergs in the past, because i tried to build tanks before i get my expo.
There are a couple of games i played but i don't count those because i lost because i was too nervous and i made stupid mistakes against them.
I kinda know what to do against Toss. I try to end the game before the first 15 mins,
I know how to deal with almost every terran strategy. I think i only lost 1 game against a terran today.
But against Zerg.. I really dont know. I cant deal with them. They can easily get mutas around 10 mins or so. And i know is my fault because i dont push or harass them..
What can i do? It is very frustrating for me and i feel i wont leave gold league.
Sorry for the long message.
The first step (and I'm serious here) is to realize that you actually know nothing about the game. You DON'T know how to deal with "almost every Terran strategy." You are playing against gold league players who don't really know what they are doing and as such what they are doing is pretty ineffective.
Say it, "I know nothing."
I'm a Platinum/Diamond level Terran player, and I can, without hesitation, say that I suck. This game is infinitely more complex than what you believe. You talk about being awful with MMM, but the more likely scenario is that your macro is bad so he just has more units than you because of your ineffectiveness at developing a strong economy and then spending that money. I could literally out-produce gold-league Zergs so much that I could attack move my entire army into him without splitting a thing and I would still win because of sheer numbers.
Micro and army control is not your problem.
With that said, you need to go watch some pros play. TvZ is a relatively straight-forward match up that will quickly become one of the most fun for you to play. I guarantee that.
I actually just typed out a very in-depth paragraph about scouting and other more subtle things but it comes down to the basics which I know for a fact that you do not have command of. So in a short phrase to hopefully help you understand why you lose....learn to macro.
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On September 14 2014 13:45 Grizvok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 12:56 Barracuda8 wrote:
Its me again..
I don't really know what else to do against Zergs. My worst MU in the whole game. Today i only won 1 from 4 games against Zergs.
Game one:
I tried to do full bio (MMM) but my APM is just too slow to split my marines (My apm in Marine split challenge is around 75-85) and they will just kill me with a bunch of lings. I think than that game didnt last more than 12 mins or so. Definetely pure bio is not for me.
Game 2:
I went full mech this time (tanks, thors and some marines to drop while i attacked his natural with my tanks) .
Game 3:
I tried to do the usual fast expand but he killed me in a while bringing 15 zerglings or so in the first 5-8 minutes. I only had a bunker tho. However I never knew how to contain that kind of push, And that was the reason why i didnt try fast expand against Zergs in the past, because i tried to build tanks before i get my expo.
There are a couple of games i played but i don't count those because i lost because i was too nervous and i made stupid mistakes against them.
I kinda know what to do against Toss. I try to end the game before the first 15 mins,
I know how to deal with almost every terran strategy. I think i only lost 1 game against a terran today.
But against Zerg.. I really dont know. I cant deal with them. They can easily get mutas around 10 mins or so. And i know is my fault because i dont push or harass them..
What can i do? It is very frustrating for me and i feel i wont leave gold league.
Sorry for the long message. The first step (and I'm serious here) is to realize that you actually know nothing about the game. You DON'T know how to deal with "almost every Terran strategy." You are playing against gold league players who don't really know what they are doing and as such what they are doing is pretty ineffective. Say it, "I know nothing." I'm a Platinum/Diamond level Terran player, and I can, without hesitation, say that I suck. This game is infinitely more complex than what you believe. You talk about being awful with MMM, but the more likely scenario is that your macro is bad so he just has more units than you because of your ineffectiveness at developing a strong economy and then spending that money. I could literally out-produce gold-league Zergs so much that I could attack move my entire army into him without splitting a thing and I would still win because of sheer numbers. Micro and army control is not your problem. With that said, you need to go watch some pros play. TvZ is a relatively straight-forward match up that will quickly become one of the most fun for you to play. I guarantee that. I actually just typed out a very in-depth paragraph about scouting and other more subtle things but it comes down to the basics which I know for a fact that you do not have command of. So in a short phrase to hopefully help you understand why you lose....learn to macro.
im not sure why youre trying to push this weird mantra about how we're all terrible ladder trash and know nothing about the game. saying "i know nothing" isnt going to help him learn, he just needs to be pointed in the right direction. which, yes, is probably macro, but "learn to macro" also is not really a helpful response. if youre not going to give actual advice why dont you just link him to a tutorial or let someone else provide answers?
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He's posted multiple times basically saying the exact same thing that he just posted and has gotten responses to the effect of what you are saying so I decided to use a different strategy.
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On September 14 2014 13:59 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 13:45 Grizvok wrote:On September 14 2014 12:56 Barracuda8 wrote:
Its me again..
I don't really know what else to do against Zergs. My worst MU in the whole game. Today i only won 1 from 4 games against Zergs.
Game one:
I tried to do full bio (MMM) but my APM is just too slow to split my marines (My apm in Marine split challenge is around 75-85) and they will just kill me with a bunch of lings. I think than that game didnt last more than 12 mins or so. Definetely pure bio is not for me.
Game 2:
I went full mech this time (tanks, thors and some marines to drop while i attacked his natural with my tanks) .
Game 3:
I tried to do the usual fast expand but he killed me in a while bringing 15 zerglings or so in the first 5-8 minutes. I only had a bunker tho. However I never knew how to contain that kind of push, And that was the reason why i didnt try fast expand against Zergs in the past, because i tried to build tanks before i get my expo.
There are a couple of games i played but i don't count those because i lost because i was too nervous and i made stupid mistakes against them.
I kinda know what to do against Toss. I try to end the game before the first 15 mins,
I know how to deal with almost every terran strategy. I think i only lost 1 game against a terran today.
But against Zerg.. I really dont know. I cant deal with them. They can easily get mutas around 10 mins or so. And i know is my fault because i dont push or harass them..
What can i do? It is very frustrating for me and i feel i wont leave gold league.
Sorry for the long message. The first step (and I'm serious here) is to realize that you actually know nothing about the game. You DON'T know how to deal with "almost every Terran strategy." You are playing against gold league players who don't really know what they are doing and as such what they are doing is pretty ineffective. Say it, "I know nothing." I'm a Platinum/Diamond level Terran player, and I can, without hesitation, say that I suck. This game is infinitely more complex than what you believe. You talk about being awful with MMM, but the more likely scenario is that your macro is bad so he just has more units than you because of your ineffectiveness at developing a strong economy and then spending that money. I could literally out-produce gold-league Zergs so much that I could attack move my entire army into him without splitting a thing and I would still win because of sheer numbers. Micro and army control is not your problem. With that said, you need to go watch some pros play. TvZ is a relatively straight-forward match up that will quickly become one of the most fun for you to play. I guarantee that. I actually just typed out a very in-depth paragraph about scouting and other more subtle things but it comes down to the basics which I know for a fact that you do not have command of. So in a short phrase to hopefully help you understand why you lose....learn to macro. im not sure why youre trying to push this weird mantra about how we're all terrible ladder trash and know nothing about the game. saying "i know nothing" isnt going to help him learn, he just needs to be pointed in the right direction. which, yes, is probably macro, but "learn to macro" also is not really a helpful response. if youre not going to give actual advice why dont you just link him to a tutorial or let someone else provide answers?
Without replays, especially when someone seems to fail in almost every aspect of a matchup, it is most likely a mechanics issue. It's hard to tell more without having a replay, but from what he says he would probably benefit most from learning to cleanly execute a single build (Barracuda8, if you are reading this, you should probably just try some kind of TvP style 3rax stim build or reaper hellion 3cc if your scouting is good. We can't help you much without a replay.)
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 11 2014 18:13 Razac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 23:50 Gaskal wrote:On September 09 2014 03:04 Razac wrote:
Could anyone help me with finding a good opening build for TvT? One that sets me for strength in the mid-game preferably.
Since I really Flash and Maru it would be a big plus if there would be a game of them playing it.
PS.
I like having different opening for 2/3/4 player maps respectively. Flash goes for the greediest possible safe expansion (Merry Go Round vs Taeja, IEM) which is a reaper FE. He uses the reaper purely to scout the build Taeja is going for and modifies his build as needed; he immediately goes into reactored hellion and viking production to counteract any sort of elevatored marine-hellion play, and if he detects any sort of tank pressure he simply cranks out more hellions and drops the earlier armory to turn them into hellbats (King Sejong, Taeja, IEM semis) Even if he loses the reaper he's not opposed to making another one just to get that important scout in. Flash seems to like mech vT. Thanks I'm going to check out that replay!
Merry Go Round game flash actually uses his gas first /w reaper scout build. He uses his reaper FE on nimbus and King Sejong.
Merry Go Round in general is a really good gas first map TvT, not very easy to get reaper inside to scout.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina27 Posts
Ok.
I was arrogant when I said that i knew almost every tvt tactic. However my tvt MU is pretty decent and my tvp has improved a bit in the last weeks.
´
And yes, i watch Pro games. But i can't execute those tactics properly.
On September 14 2014 14:09 Grizvok wrote:
He's posted multiple times basically saying the exact same thing that he just posted and has gotten responses to the effect of what you are saying so I decided to use a different strategy.
I know i've posted the same and I'm sorry if i'm annoying but this Match up is the most frustrating for me. Also, i get really nervous when I face zergs, i tend to fail a lot against them.
Without replays, especially when someone seems to fail in almost every aspect of a matchup, it is most likely a mechanics issue. It's hard to tell more without having a replay, but from what he says he would probably benefit most from learning to cleanly execute a single build (Barracuda8, if you are reading this, you should probably just try some kind of TvP style 3rax stim build or reaper hellion 3cc if your scouting is good. We can't help you much without a replay.)
I'll upload one or two replays when I play against Zergs.
And yes. It is a mechanics issue. Like i said above, i tend to commit a lot of mistakes in Tvz. Stupid mistakes sometimes.. I get very nervous against them.
Thank you and I'm sorry.
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Why do you get nervous playing against the zerg?
Fix your mindset then you can start to improve. Take a build you like from a pro. and copy it till you learn it, it doesn't matter if you can't get the timings down to a teeth, the closer you are the better you perform it, and it'll only get better with time.
And decide if you want to mech or play bio, don't do both at your level. It's to different of a game style to be efficent if you want to win games.
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Hey I've been on a one month break from StarCraft 2 and just came back and I'm getting killed by the meta builds. I'm a gold (hoping for plat) terran. Could someone update me on the current metagame and give me a good macro build for each matchup? Sorry if this isn't the right thread but I couldn't find a recent meta thread.
Thanks
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EPT
