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On January 10 2015 21:09 XPA wrote:
I played a TvP on Nimbus and my opponent did a forge fast expand (no cannon rush). I went for standart reaper expand into bio. He walled up the ramp and because I scouted him on last position the first cannon was finished and denied any reaper harassement. I won that game, but I realised that I had no clue what the right counter to a FFE is as terran.
So assuming that your reaper doesn´t get a bunch of kills, because of the map architecture, is going for a quick third command center a good answer, because he delays his tech so much?
Either stick with your original plan or make a small deviation like getting a fast third CC or getting a fast +1 upgrade and then go back to your original plan.
WORST thing you can do vs something unusual is start fucking around because you're not exactly sure what to do.
Assuming Protoss has somehow found a way to not die to a single reaper... (Nimbus has no places for a reaper to escape the cannon range) There isn't any real way to "punish" or "counter" the Forge Expand; you can abuse how late the cybernetics core will be by sneaking in another base or upgrade but that faster Nexus WILL pay for itself.
And honestly why bother going for a cheeky early attack when:
A: He already has a cannon at his front
B: He's probably going to make a cannon at his natural if you go for some sort of mine drop
C: If you don't do some significant damage he's going to have a really fast upgrade on you and you won't have any compensating advantage.
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His strength is going to be having a defensive advantage with the static cannon after the opening. His weakness is his inability to apply pressure after investing 300 minerals into his opening and the time lost (oracle, blink, whatever is gonna be so late...).
Play his weaknesses instead of attacking into his strengths.
Defensive > All In > Greed > Defensive
This formula doesn't always fit in SC but I think it sums up what I said nicely.
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On January 10 2015 23:43 MockHamill wrote:
What the earliest time the following attacks can hit:
Proxy Oracle
4-gate
1-base blink
Proxy Immortal (1-base)
1-base 7 RR (roach rush)
2-base muta
Banshee without cloak
Banshee with cloak
I don't know for sure but I will do my best:
Proxy Oracle - 5:25
4-gate - 6:00
1-base blink - 7:00
Proxy Immortal (1-base) - really depends on how many immortals but 2 immortals and a few sentries should hit around 7:30 - 8:00
1-base 7 RR (roach rush) - 6:00 depending on rush distance.
2-base muta - 9:30
Banshee without cloak - 6:30 but I guess you can have a banshee in your main at 6:00 if proxied but cloak is 6:30.
Banshee with cloak - 6:30
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On January 10 2015 23:43 MockHamill wrote:
What the earliest time the following attacks can hit:
Proxy Oracle
4-gate
1-base blink
Proxy Immortal (1-base)
1-base 7 RR (roach rush)
2-base muta
Banshee without cloak
Banshee with cloak
Oracle finishes at 5:10
1 gas 12gate 4 gate warps in first set of units around 5:45 (but I literally have not seen this build in two years)
1 base blink GENERALLY hits around 7:30ish, but I'd try to be ready around 7 minutes (he will only have about five stalkers then if his blink is done)
Proxy immortal isn't a real build, so it just depends on what your opponent is doing. I would expect similar timing to blink.
7rr isn't a real build and roaches are slow enough that if you know he is on one base and see the roaches leaving the base you will be able to bunker in time
2base muta generally hits between 9-10 min
Banshee finishes around 6:00ish, cloak around 6:45-7:00, when it hits your base depends on map and starport location
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On January 11 2015 04:13 Kvassten wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 23:43 MockHamill wrote:
What the earliest time the following attacks can hit:
Proxy Oracle
4-gate
1-base blink
Proxy Immortal (1-base)
1-base 7 RR (roach rush)
2-base muta
Banshee without cloak
Banshee with cloak I don't know for sure but I will do my best: Proxy Oracle - 5:25 4-gate - 6:00 1-base blink - 7:00 Proxy Immortal (1-base) - really depends on how many immortals but 2 immortals and a few sentries should hit around 7:30 - 8:00 1-base 7 RR (roach rush) - 6:00 depending on rush distance. 2-base muta - 9:30 Banshee without cloak - 6:30 but I guess you can have a banshee in your main at 6:00 if proxied but cloak is 6:30. Banshee with cloak - 6:30
Pretty close but I think my timings are more accurate, especially on the banshee. Assuming you star factory at 3:00 (normal) it is impossible to have cloak before 6:40, and even 6:40 is only possible if you start the starport on an already made tech lab.
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On January 11 2015 04:15 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 23:43 MockHamill wrote:
What the earliest time the following attacks can hit:
Proxy Oracle
4-gate
1-base blink
Proxy Immortal (1-base)
1-base 7 RR (roach rush)
2-base muta
Banshee without cloak
Banshee with cloak Oracle finishes at 5:10 1 gas 12gate 4 gate warps in first set of units around 5:45 (but I literally have not seen this build in two years) 1 base blink GENERALLY hits around 7:30ish, but I'd try to be ready around 7 minutes (he will only have about five stalkers then if his blink is done) Proxy immortal isn't a real build, so it just depends on what your opponent is doing. I would expect similar timing to blink. 7rr isn't a real build and roaches are slow enough that if you know he is on one base and see the roaches leaving the base you will be able to bunker in time 2base muta generally hits between 9-10 min Banshee finishes around 6:00ish, cloak around 6:45-7:00, when it hits your base depends on map and starport location
Oracle finishes at that time, but gets to your base by 5:20-5:25 depending where it was proxied. Eng bay takes 35 seconds + turret takes 25 seconds to build. Line it up accordingly
Proxy immortal is a very real build. It is a gateway attack that will hit around the same time that blink hits, around 7:30 I believe. You can scout this by seeing multiple sentries is a big tell, coz you don't have enough gas to make stalkers and immortals on 1 base.
7rr is a real build on 2 bases. It is designed to counter cc first openings and instead of spending the first 100 gas on speed, you build 7-9 roaches. They will hit at about 6:30 I believe, and you need to have a wall up and pull scvs. The goal of the roaches is to pick off as many scvs as possible. Again, this is just when someone opens up cc first, it is a soft counter to that build.
2base muta will hit at 9:30 if first 100 gas is used for lair instead of speed, but it will otherwise hit at 10 mins if they get speed and then lair without taking drones off of gas.
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On January 11 2015 14:32 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 04:15 Pokebunny wrote:On January 10 2015 23:43 MockHamill wrote:
What the earliest time the following attacks can hit:
Proxy Oracle
4-gate
1-base blink
Proxy Immortal (1-base)
1-base 7 RR (roach rush)
2-base muta
Banshee without cloak
Banshee with cloak Oracle finishes at 5:10 1 gas 12gate 4 gate warps in first set of units around 5:45 (but I literally have not seen this build in two years) 1 base blink GENERALLY hits around 7:30ish, but I'd try to be ready around 7 minutes (he will only have about five stalkers then if his blink is done) Proxy immortal isn't a real build, so it just depends on what your opponent is doing. I would expect similar timing to blink. 7rr isn't a real build and roaches are slow enough that if you know he is on one base and see the roaches leaving the base you will be able to bunker in time 2base muta generally hits between 9-10 min Banshee finishes around 6:00ish, cloak around 6:45-7:00, when it hits your base depends on map and starport location ... Proxy immortal is a very real build. It is a gateway attack that will hit around the same time that blink hits, around 7:30 I believe. You can scout this by seeing multiple sentries is a big tell, coz you don't have enough gas to make stalkers and immortals on 1 base. ...
There was Flash vs Zest at IEM toronto finals on king sejong's station, where Zest executes this build, Flash sees it, counters it at first but a small over extention allows Zest to kill his army and finish the game. The replay must still be available for those who wants to analyse this build.
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I have huge problems controlling my army lategame. I mean... how do you control group your stuff? Ghosts in main army - can't stim. Ghosts on another key - I mess up. Vikings? Should have own key? Am I just to bad for this? 
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On January 12 2015 13:06 neptunusfisk wrote:I have huge problems controlling my army lategame. I mean... how do you control group your stuff? Ghosts in main army - can't stim. Ghosts on another key - I mess up. Vikings? Should have own key? Am I just to bad for this?
I'm only diamond and kinda struggle with micro too, but I generally have all in one group and control click stuff like vikings or ghosts (and remember to hit tab so you can stim ;p)... Definitely not the best way to do it, but it kinda works (not super well tho ^^).
I also remember that I saw a very good korean pro (Taeja maybe ?) who used only 2 groups: one for ghosts only, one for bio + vikings and used control click to properly adjust viking position. So you don't need 36 different control groups to properly control an army, apparently... A good 2-3 should be enough.
But lategame TvP engagements are a nightmare, no matter how you control your army...
Edit: also, here's a neat trick that might help you out. If you do go the route of grouping ghosts and bio (and vikings) separately, you can make the bio follow your ghosts (select bio, right click on a ghost). Do the same with the vikings. That way, you can easily move your whole army through the map with only 1 control group (the ghost one), and the ghosts will always be at the front (ready to EMP). When you get near the P army, then you can split things up again and control it properly again. It just helps with the whole "moving army around" thing, not the fight itself unfortunately...
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I want to talk about the new season maps. They added two with inbase naturals and i dont know how i can pressure that in tvp. protoss was already so safe with the msc but now i cant even bunker rush early expos any more.
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On January 12 2015 18:35 graNite wrote:
I want to talk about the new season maps. They added two with inbase naturals and i dont know how i can pressure that in tvp. protoss was already so safe with the msc but now i cant even bunker rush early expos any more.
I just see 1 map with inbase natural: Vaani Research Station.
For early pressure in TvP I'd suggest the Hammer build. Although it's harder to see, if he actually took the natural or is preparing some 1 base stuff. That would bug me more tbh (if I wouldn't veto that map anyways ).
On January 12 2015 13:06 neptunusfisk wrote:I have huge problems controlling my army lategame. I mean... how do you control group your stuff? Ghosts in main army - can't stim. Ghosts on another key - I mess up. Vikings? Should have own key? Am I just to bad for this?
The question is, why/how do you mess up, when Ghosts are on a different group?
I'd recommend 3 control groups: army, Ghosts, Vikings. At least you should have 2 groups: army and Ghosts, with the Vikings not in any group just following the army. You can CTRL+click Vikings easily, cos they're rather big. Trying to CTRL+click Ghosts that are spread in your army is way harder.
Have the Ghosts and Vikings follow your army, when you move around the map.
Before an engagement, scan ahead, choose Ghosts group -> cloak -> EMP/Snipe (-> SHIFT+attack move), choose Vikings -> SHIFT+attack through Colossi, choose army group -> stim and kite as needed.
If you mess this up, you'll have to train it. With Bio there's no way around this.
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On January 12 2015 19:22 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 18:35 graNite wrote:
I want to talk about the new season maps. They added two with inbase naturals and i dont know how i can pressure that in tvp. protoss was already so safe with the msc but now i cant even bunker rush early expos any more. I just see 1 map with inbase natural: Vaani Research Station. For early pressure in TvP I'd suggest the Hammer build. Although it's harder to see, if he actually took the natural or is preparing some 1 base stuff. That would bug me more tbh (if I wouldn't veto that map anyways ). Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 13:06 neptunusfisk wrote:I have huge problems controlling my army lategame. I mean... how do you control group your stuff? Ghosts in main army - can't stim. Ghosts on another key - I mess up. Vikings? Should have own key? Am I just to bad for this? The question is, why/how do you mess up, when Ghosts are on a different group? I'd recommend 3 control groups: army, Ghosts, Vikings. At least you should have 2 groups: army and Ghosts, with the Vikings not in any group just following the army. You can CTRL+click Vikings easily, cos they're rather big. Trying to CTRL+click Ghosts that are spread in your army is way harder. Have the Ghosts and Vikings follow your army, when you move around the map. Before an engagement, scan ahead, choose Ghosts group -> cloak -> EMP/Snipe (-> SHIFT+attack move), choose Vikings -> SHIFT+attack through Colossi, choose army group -> stim and kite as needed. If you mess this up, you'll have to train it. With Bio there's no way around this.
I wouldn't make ghosts following the army, rather the opposite. If the ghosts are stuck in the back, you can get all your stuff stormed to oblivion before the ghosts ever get in range...
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On January 12 2015 20:02 LoneYoShi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 19:22 BurningRanger wrote:On January 12 2015 18:35 graNite wrote:
I want to talk about the new season maps. They added two with inbase naturals and i dont know how i can pressure that in tvp. protoss was already so safe with the msc but now i cant even bunker rush early expos any more. I just see 1 map with inbase natural: Vaani Research Station. For early pressure in TvP I'd suggest the Hammer build. Although it's harder to see, if he actually took the natural or is preparing some 1 base stuff. That would bug me more tbh (if I wouldn't veto that map anyways ). On January 12 2015 13:06 neptunusfisk wrote:I have huge problems controlling my army lategame. I mean... how do you control group your stuff? Ghosts in main army - can't stim. Ghosts on another key - I mess up. Vikings? Should have own key? Am I just to bad for this? The question is, why/how do you mess up, when Ghosts are on a different group? I'd recommend 3 control groups: army, Ghosts, Vikings. At least you should have 2 groups: army and Ghosts, with the Vikings not in any group just following the army. You can CTRL+click Vikings easily, cos they're rather big. Trying to CTRL+click Ghosts that are spread in your army is way harder. Have the Ghosts and Vikings follow your army, when you move around the map. Before an engagement, scan ahead, choose Ghosts group -> cloak -> EMP/Snipe (-> SHIFT+attack move), choose Vikings -> SHIFT+attack through Colossi, choose army group -> stim and kite as needed. If you mess this up, you'll have to train it. With Bio there's no way around this. I wouldn't make ghosts following the army, rather the opposite. If the ghosts are stuck in the back, you can get all your stuff stormed to oblivion before the ghosts ever get in range...
This seems clever... you mean that I should walk around with ghosts and the bio set to follow on one ghost?
Regarding the taeja 2 hotkey setup... I will practice it!
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On January 12 2015 21:09 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 20:02 LoneYoShi wrote:On January 12 2015 19:22 BurningRanger wrote:On January 12 2015 18:35 graNite wrote:
I want to talk about the new season maps. They added two with inbase naturals and i dont know how i can pressure that in tvp. protoss was already so safe with the msc but now i cant even bunker rush early expos any more. I just see 1 map with inbase natural: Vaani Research Station. For early pressure in TvP I'd suggest the Hammer build. Although it's harder to see, if he actually took the natural or is preparing some 1 base stuff. That would bug me more tbh (if I wouldn't veto that map anyways ). On January 12 2015 13:06 neptunusfisk wrote:I have huge problems controlling my army lategame. I mean... how do you control group your stuff? Ghosts in main army - can't stim. Ghosts on another key - I mess up. Vikings? Should have own key? Am I just to bad for this? The question is, why/how do you mess up, when Ghosts are on a different group? I'd recommend 3 control groups: army, Ghosts, Vikings. At least you should have 2 groups: army and Ghosts, with the Vikings not in any group just following the army. You can CTRL+click Vikings easily, cos they're rather big. Trying to CTRL+click Ghosts that are spread in your army is way harder. Have the Ghosts and Vikings follow your army, when you move around the map. Before an engagement, scan ahead, choose Ghosts group -> cloak -> EMP/Snipe (-> SHIFT+attack move), choose Vikings -> SHIFT+attack through Colossi, choose army group -> stim and kite as needed. If you mess this up, you'll have to train it. With Bio there's no way around this. I wouldn't make ghosts following the army, rather the opposite. If the ghosts are stuck in the back, you can get all your stuff stormed to oblivion before the ghosts ever get in range... This seems clever... you mean that I should walk around with ghosts and the bio set to follow on one ghost? Regarding the taeja 2 hotkey setup... I will practice it!
Using a follow command is fine, but there's also no reason not to simply practice control groups. It takes a fraction of a section more to move command 2-3 control groups as opposed to one. Definitely the leading with Ghosts is critical, and this is why you use Scans lategame and not MULEs. If you simply walk around blind there's a high chance you get strafed by Colossi and also get hit with Feedback before you ever get the critical EMPs/Snipes.
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I haven't played SC2 for two years now. I want to jump back in. What are some very similar build orders I can learn for each matchup? Or should I just search around for a post that has all the basic build orders?
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In the new map pool which maps are good for Mech? Deadwing is good of course, but I am not sure which of others that should be used.
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On January 13 2015 02:12 Adrenalinz wrote:
I haven't played SC2 for two years now. I want to jump back in. What are some very similar build orders I can learn for each matchup? Or should I just search around for a post that has all the basic build orders?
Same with me - I'm using FilterSC's videos from Youtube to get my mechanics back up, but I have a feeling the builds are out of date.
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On January 13 2015 02:12 Adrenalinz wrote:
I haven't played SC2 for two years now. I want to jump back in. What are some very similar build orders I can learn for each matchup? Or should I just search around for a post that has all the basic build orders?
http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/
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Any high-level reactions (preliminary, I know) to the new maps? Looking for something more useful than "veto x, y, and z." Any good siege locations, etc?
Here's my very rudimentary, diamond-level thoughts:
Expedition Lost--
TvZ: Big distance between nat and 3rd favors hellion/hellbat & banshee play?
TvT: The center ridge seems important to control with tanks.
Secret Spring--
The narrow alley in the center reminds me of a BW map, Blue Storm. It's an interesting choke point and might make for cool TvTs. Seems like the map might be good opportunity for defensive mech. Three attack avenues, easily defended.
But.... TvP: Proxy oracle troubles me because there are so many places to proxy. But blink all-ins are my biggest worry. The no double ramp and the huge blinkable surface area around the main might be too much to deal with.
Vaani Research--
I dunno. Blink seems scary here too because of the surface area at the nat cliff. (assuming you expand in base). Otherwise, looks fun but nothing special.
Inferno Pools--
Bigger deadwing, no? I don't care for the size.
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On January 13 2015 06:55 EscapePlan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 02:12 Adrenalinz wrote:
I haven't played SC2 for two years now. I want to jump back in. What are some very similar build orders I can learn for each matchup? Or should I just search around for a post that has all the basic build orders? Same with me - I'm using FilterSC's videos from Youtube to get my mechanics back up, but I have a feeling the builds are out of date.
On January 13 2015 02:12 Adrenalinz wrote:
I haven't played SC2 for two years now. I want to jump back in. What are some very similar build orders I can learn for each matchup? Or should I just search around for a post that has all the basic build orders?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/445776-ejk-vods-tips-tricks-answers
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EPT
