EPTYou are right about the upgrade lead, but I have lost games with 2-2 against 0-0 simply because the zerg droned up so hard that he just overrun me with a great economy and numbers. But it is quite possible that I dont lose to the push itself but just make bad decisions later in the game. A common army composition in such games is roach ling baneling with later mutas or corrupters, or even hydras. I think I am often sticking with bio hellbat too long which gets rekt by that. Is it advisable to go bio mine instead with 1-2 thors vs roach bane composition? And should I just wait at the edge of his creep, clear it and leapfrog mines even if he has a bigger income? I often feel pressured to just run on his creep because I feel I need to do something and not leave him time.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 336
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Aquila-
516 Posts
You are right about the upgrade lead, but I have lost games with 2-2 against 0-0 simply because the zerg droned up so hard that he just overrun me with a great economy and numbers. But it is quite possible that I dont lose to the push itself but just make bad decisions later in the game. A common army composition in such games is roach ling baneling with later mutas or corrupters, or even hydras. I think I am often sticking with bio hellbat too long which gets rekt by that. Is it advisable to go bio mine instead with 1-2 thors vs roach bane composition? And should I just wait at the edge of his creep, clear it and leapfrog mines even if he has a bigger income? I often feel pressured to just run on his creep because I feel I need to do something and not leave him time. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
You are right about the upgrade lead, but I have lost games with 2-2 against 0-0 simply because the zerg droned up so hard that he just overrun me with a great economy and numbers. This is a red flag; if you're losing games like this I think you just need to work on increasing your own numbers. SCV # Unit # Barrack # / Timing Even though I personally believe hellbats are inferior factory unit to couple with bionic units you shouldn't be losing games when you're 4 upgrades ahead this sounds like your macro is weak. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
http://drop.sc/392336 | ||
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creamwolf
United States48 Posts
It seems like opening bio is weak vs roach allins versus banshees can defeat any all ins. Is the earlier rax more beneficial in anyway compared to the banshee? It seems like the banshee can setup harassment and static defense and even force queens out of position so hellions can roast mineral lines. | ||
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NXT_SC2
United States3 Posts
On January 20 2015 11:51 creamwolf wrote: In TvZ, is it possible to open straight bio with lots of rax or is it standard now to get a faster starport for Banshee? It seems like opening bio is weak vs roach allins versus banshees can defeat any all ins. Is the earlier rax more beneficial in anyway compared to the banshee? It seems like the banshee can setup harassment and static defense and even force queens out of position so hellions can roast mineral lines. Personally I usually opt for faster medivacs out of my starport for faster harass and mobility. I haven't tried banshee yet but I've had success holding off roach attacks with bunkers and good micro. | ||
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Tzela
Canada48 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On January 24 2015 08:17 Tzela wrote: on expedition lost should i be taking the third behind the backdoor? or the farther one? I feel like TvZ for sure behind the backdoor because its closer to the enemy. but for tvt and tvp im not too sure which is better Depends a wee bit on matchup. Against zerg and Protoss I'm fond of taking the horizontal base since it's not too difficult to hold and it mightn't be best to knock off the rocks in the main sometimes (or doable at all in tvz when you're securing your 3rd and you hvae like 4 marines and 6 hellions and a banshee). Against Terran the base past the rocks might be better since you can hold natural and 3rd separately with really good tank positions and without leaving too much airspace for doom dropping. I tend to just apply really heavy 2 base aggression on that map in tvt so I haven't fully figured it out myself, but my opponents go for that third and I can see how it's a good idea. | ||
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SonGoku
Germany152 Posts
is there a replaypack from the HSC X available? Need flash vs. parting (scv pull on merry go round) and saw that at least some youtubers have the actuall replay not only a vod. can i haz it? | ||
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XPA
Germany242 Posts
On January 26 2015 04:40 SonGoku wrote: yoyo is there a replaypack from the HSC X available? Need flash vs. parting (scv pull on merry go round) and saw that at least some youtubers have the actuall replay not only a vod. can i haz it? http://taketv.net/uploads/HSC-Rep.rar | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
http://drop.sc/393270 he just had more stuff macro the issue here? | ||
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Spiller
United States106 Posts
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On February 01 2015 02:48 Spiller wrote: In TvZ, how do you decide whether to open with 1,2, or 3 reapers before going reactor factory? I tend to go for 1 because my reaper micro isn't great and I like to get hellions/banshees out faster, but I see higher level players often have success going for 2 or sometimes even 3. I know it's probably map dependent somewhat (catallena is a good reaper map for example right?) but are there any other indicators as to tell you how many to make? 1 reaper allows for 2 marines to deny a scout, so this is good if you are going for something that relies on that. The choice between 2-3 reapers is mostly one of factory timing and the amount of cliff space around the 2 bases of the zerg. And of course you always want the reactor if you are doing some attack with marines (like the 1gas marine/hellion/medivac, or some kind of hellbat build sans banshee.) | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
On February 01 2015 01:05 Incognoto wrote: hmm not sure what i did wrong this game: http://drop.sc/393270 he just had more stuff macro the issue here? Mostly, yes. Here's some notes, in more detail. 1) Optional, but its a good idea to put the first depot at the ramp on a 2 player map vs protoss, to guarantee he cannot proxygate in your main without you seeing it. The barracks, while well-placed, wouldn't have spotted a probe sent on 6 straight for the hidden part of your main. 2) Your SCV production is pretty inconsistent early game. Furthermore, you over-saturate you main. Remember to set your rally point to your natural after 16 probes on minerals (19 if we keep the gas in mind). 3) Your ebay spends a lot of idle time. This is largely due to forgetting to re-saturate your gas. Also, gas 2 and 3 are too slow. Normally Terrans get gas 2&3 when they throw down their factory. You were a little late and as a result triple-gassed, which isn't as efficient. Additionally, its safe to get the second gas a little quicker than normal if you are going for marauders + concussive, since the gas required otherwise delays your factory. 4) Always build the starport right next to the factory. It has to fly a long way and as a result loses a lot of potential production time, which is quite important since the starport is usually working overtime trying to balance both medivacs and vikings. The starport also idles a lot, and no second starport gets thrown down resulting in way too few vikings to deal with his colossus. 5) you build 2 ebays but only ever upgrade out of one of them, plus the armory is quite late. Normally you can just get +1 +1 from 1 ebay, throwing down the armory and the second ebay when +1 armor is about 50% complete. This game was lost mostly due to macro. There were some debatable strategic things to talk about, but the macro is far, far more important when compared to some of the more strategic elements. Just focus on keeping those CCs, rax/ports and ebay(s) constantly active! | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On February 01 2015 02:48 Spiller wrote: In TvZ, how do you decide whether to open with 1,2, or 3 reapers before going reactor factory? I tend to go for 1 because my reaper micro isn't great and I like to get hellions/banshees out faster, but I see higher level players often have success going for 2 or sometimes even 3. I know it's probably map dependent somewhat (catallena is a good reaper map for example right?) but are there any other indicators as to tell you how many to make? As far as I am aware, it is partly a stylistic choice, and partly catering your build to the map. With 3 reapers you are looking to be a lot more aggressive vs Queens and trading with lings and picking off drones, this is at the cost of your factory timing though, which will delay hellion production. 2 is a middle ground, you have the chance to do damage if you see fit to, and shapes up to a fairly standard factory and thus hellion timing. 1 is almost purely made to just scout with, the amount of damage you are expecting to get done is near 0, so saving the gas and getting an earlier reactor could be a better strategy. This allows you 2 marines before hellion production starts, which can be used defensively or aggressively for overlords. | ||
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Kvassten
Sweden159 Posts
On February 01 2015 04:53 Sajaki wrote: Mostly, yes. Here's some notes, in more detail. 1) Optional, but its a good idea to put the first depot at the ramp on a 2 player map vs protoss, to guarantee he cannot proxygate in your main. The barracks, while well-placed, wouldn't have spotted a probe sent on 6 straight for the hidden part of your main. 2) Your SCV production is pretty inconsistent early game. Furthermore, you over-saturate you main. Remember to set your rally point to your natural after 16 probes on minerals (19 if we keep the gas in mind). 3) Your ebay spends a lot of idle time. This is largely due to forgetting to re-saturate your gas. Also, gas 2 and 3 are too slow. Normally Terrans get gas 2&3 when they throw down their factory. You were a little late and as a result triple-gassed, which isn't as efficient. Additionally, its safe to get the second gas a little quicker than normal if you are going for marauders + concussive, since the gas required otherwise delays your factory. 4) Always build the starport right next to the factory. It has to fly a long way and as a result loses a lot of potential mining time, which is quite important since the starport is usually working overtime trying to balance both medivacs and vikings. The starport also idles a lot, and no second starport gets thrown down resulting in way too few vikings to deal with his colossus. 5) you build 2 ebays but only ever upgrade out of one of them, plus the armory is quite late. Normally you can just get +1 +1 from 1 ebay, throwing down the armory and the second ebay when +1 armor is about 50% complete. This game was lost mostly due to macro. There were some debatable strategic things to talk about, but the macro is far, far more important when compared to some of the more strategic elements. Just focus on keeping those CCs, rax/ports and ebay(s) constantly active! ^ This! Also, there is a pretty strange situation at 14 mins where both of you goes for heavy aggression but none of you sees each other because of the lack of map vision. When you are about to attack his 3rd base your reinforcements faces his entire army mid map. You should have just gone YOLO and rush to his natural and main and kill everything you can. While you are doing that, build a shit ton of bunkers at home and defend the all in that you force him to do. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On January 25 2015 17:32 ROOTiaguz wrote: Depends a wee bit on matchup. Against zerg and Protoss I'm fond of taking the horizontal base since it's not too difficult to hold and it mightn't be best to knock off the rocks in the main sometimes (or doable at all in tvz when you're securing your 3rd and you hvae like 4 marines and 6 hellions and a banshee). Against Terran the base past the rocks might be better since you can hold natural and 3rd separately with really good tank positions and without leaving too much airspace for doom dropping. I tend to just apply really heavy 2 base aggression on that map in tvt so I haven't fully figured it out myself, but my opponents go for that third and I can see how it's a good idea. I really like taking the third by the rocks in TvZ because if the zerg breaks down your backdoor you have SO much space to defend with counterattacks, and you can easily wall off your natural with a bunker behind it requiring 10+ banelings for a successful counterattack. You also then are expanding towards the zerg's third as they generally do not take the one by the rocks. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
Will the extra marines out early be safer than a normal reaper expand into three cc by sacrificing a little scouting and early map control? I also think I gain a lot by having the potential to perhaps snipe an overlord as well as to deny any overlord scouts. Obviously I love the way Maru normally plays his later gas opener by going for the fast starport and slightly later cc which works out great since he keeps the Zerg at home defending while he macros up. Unfortunately I don't quite think I have the APM and multitasking to pull it off at a high level so I've decided to work on a very macro heavy approach that is focused on a stronger mid game and late game push as opposed to the harass and macro variety. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On February 02 2015 13:51 Grizvok wrote: So how are people feeling about Maru and how he likes to forego the Reaper in TvZ and instead get the later gas? I can't recall if I have ever seen him go three cc off of that opener but I believe he has. Regardless this is mostly theory crafting about a build that I would like to test out. Obviously scouting is important in any match up but my main concern with this greedy build is of course any all in that will punish that greed. I know I lose some early map control without the Reaper but in general I do plan to be dilligent with the hellions after 4 are out to help spot the third base timing as well as to deny creep and poke at queens. I like making 8 hellions as I think it helps me out in grabbing stronger map control as well as to give initial pushes more oomph. Will the extra marines out early be safer than a normal reaper expand into three cc by sacrificing a little scouting and early map control? I also think I gain a lot by having the potential to perhaps snipe an overlord as well as to deny any overlord scouts. Obviously I love the way Maru normally plays his later gas opener by going for the fast starport and slightly later cc which works out great since he keeps the Zerg at home defending while he macros up. Unfortunately I don't quite think I have the APM and multitasking to pull it off at a high level so I've decided to work on a very macro heavy approach that is focused on a stronger mid game and late game push as opposed to the harass and macro variety. I'm not sure how much Maru's 15 gas builds are true macro builds as opposed to more meta plays that try to look like Cure's 15 gas hellbat build and a couple other 15 gas hellbat builds, especially since he can easily deny scouting with his large marine count. Also, I didn't watch Soulkey vs. Maru but whenever I saw him do the 15 gas it was on Overgrowth so he may have also been trying to abuse overlord scouting patterns to pick off the first one, as on that map the first overlord goes generally in the direction of the barracks, and also 2rax is common enough there that the overlord could poke in even more. In general, I think it may have just been a meta play. I don't feel that it transitions very well into 3CC (you have to delay your factory to make it work.) I think it works quite nicely with either medivac or banshee plays, but if you want to go 3CC I think 1 rax expo is better if you really want to pick off overlords. CC first/reaper reactor/2reaper builds all work perfectly fine if you aren't looking to kill either of the first 2 scouting overlords. | ||
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