EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 314
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padawan1997
Vietnam7 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
I'm plat and bullshit that shouldn't work does really well against me. Some guy just made pure marines and won with that: http://drop.sc/386524 I'm guessing I have 0 game knowledge and that a diamond player could have won this with simply different decisions. What are your thoughts / tips? Recently I've been trying to go for a reaper expand in 1-1-1, with 6 hellions / reaper + 5 marines / medivac hitting the other terran. marines just do so well against hellions though. or does it require micro? idk guys, i'm just lost @ terran | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
*I havn't looked at the replay* but considering you keep asking stuff about improving it might suit you? Idno. if he went pure marines you simply needed marine tank and don't get caught unsieged. | ||
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LargeRichard
United States4 Posts
In small numbers hellions do well against marines, but marine DPS is high enough to overpower hellions once you have a handful of them. I don't think that's the problem with this game though. Your 'game knowledge' seems to be fine; you opened with fast tech and some good pressure and transitioned into marine-tank-medivac. The problem is that it took you way too long to do those things. Your starport was a little late, which delayed your first push. Then you didn't add extra barracks for a long time; you could have had them started by 6:00 (or earlier even) but you threw them down at 8:30, and it was only after that that you started making tanks and getting stim. Your delayed production and transition to marine-tank is what lost you the game. As a general rule, you want to go from 1 rax to 3 rax, which you can sustain off two bases. Once you get a third you can go up to 5 rax, and if you have a healthy economy and the game goes long you can go up to 8 rax. This usually doesn't happen in TvT though; you tend to stay on 5 rax, 2 fac and 1 starport for the whole game. I think if you focus on tightening up your build and getting the core production and upgrades going you'll be having a lot more success in TvT. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
I'm looking for details in my play that are flawed. Starcraft is a game I feel where the player who makes the most / biggest mistakes is the one who loses first. The goal in starcraft is to capitalize off the other player's mistakes while making the minimum amount yourself. "Your build makes no sense" "you missed like 5 scvs in 10 minutes" "why on earth did you attack up that ramp with those hellions" "if you had done this build, you would have had 4 hellions in his base thanks to that medivac and you would have done lots of damage" "you scouted x, so you should have reacted by doing y" That's the sort of advice I'm looking for, I guess. Missing scvs / depots are mistakes I can identify myself. Things like game knowledge, decision making, knowing whether or not to engage is stuff that is beyond me for Terran. I didn't have too many issues with zerg since I had a good grasp on that race's strengths and weaknesses. often time when playing terran i move out early to try to get something done (find opponent's mistakes and punish them) but I feel that I'm either not using the right build to do so, OR i'm forcing an issue when another decision would have been more pertinent (back off, take a third or something). I'm also terrible against timing attacks. tank / marine push outs and roach / bling busts kill me almost every time. E: oh didn't see that post largerichard, thanks! | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic626 Posts
lets say stoping SCV production at 40+2Mules and at least making units from 6barracks+Medivac to hit with a lot of units? can this be done? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 29 2014 01:32 SC2BF3Love wrote: I have a question, if protoss can stop at 44-46 probes in order to do an ALL-IN, then why can a Terran do the same? lets say stoping SCV production at 40+2Mules and at least making units from 6barracks+Medivac to hit with a lot of units? can this be done? Wasn't this what SC used to do back in WoL? | ||
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B-rye88
Canada168 Posts
On September 29 2014 01:30 Incognoto wrote: I'm not sure what the staircase is but I don't feel like looking into it, stuff like the core and the staircase feels gimmicky to me, I could be wrong though. If some pros comes in the thread here and tells me that it's legit, sure, why not? However that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for details in my play that are flawed. Starcraft is a game I feel where the player who makes the most / biggest mistakes is the one who loses first. The goal in starcraft is to capitalize off the other player's mistakes while making the minimum amount yourself. "Your build makes no sense" "you missed like 5 scvs in 10 minutes" "why on earth did you attack up that ramp with those hellions" "if you had done this build, you would have had 4 hellions in his base thanks to that medivac and you would have done lots of damage" "you scouted x, so you should have reacted by doing y" That's the sort of advice I'm looking for, I guess. Missing scvs / depots are mistakes I can identify myself. Things like game knowledge, decision making, knowing whether or not to engage is stuff that is beyond me for Terran. I didn't have too many issues with zerg since I had a good grasp on that race's strengths and weaknesses. often time when playing terran i move out early to try to get something done (find opponent's mistakes and punish them) but I feel that I'm either not using the right build to do so, OR i'm forcing an issue when another decision would have been more pertinent (back off, take a third or something). I'm also terrible against timing attacks. tank / marine push outs and roach / bling busts kill me almost every time. E: oh didn't see that post largerichard, thanks! The staircase is exactly what you just lost to. The point of the staircase is to artificially limit your decision making to force you to focus your attention on foundational mechanics like building SCVs, making depots, and spending your money; it does this by preventing you from making certain decisions, and also by changing the focus of results from winning/losing the game to "how well did I spend my money / expand within the confines of the system". I can tell you it would absolutely improve your game; there were multiple points where you were missing scvs, building depots when not required, and missing production timings. You can certainly take the view that you'd rather develop knowledge on when to do something and why; you have that prerogative. It's my opinion though that if you're looking to improve, it would be better done by getting better at building stuff first and then learning to build the right stuff later. If you lack the foundation to actually execute the strategies that you would need to at a higher level, game knowledge won't help you. We could certainly say "well, you noticed your opponent is building a bunch of unupgraded marines, so just chill out and tech up to stuff that's good against marines like hellions and continue to get upgrades then go kill him". You would definitely have won the game by doing that. But I don't think it would help you get to diamond / whatever your goal is any faster. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On September 29 2014 01:32 SC2BF3Love wrote: I have a question, if protoss can stop at 44-46 probes in order to do an ALL-IN, then why can a Terran do the same? lets say stoping SCV production at 40+2Mules and at least making units from 6barracks+Medivac to hit with a lot of units? can this be done? of course you can do that. I see maru go 4 techlab, 1 reactor and just rally units to toss third and attacks endlessly until the game is over. But at the same time you can just delay 1 production cycle for 15 seconds and suddenly you have 400 minerals for an expansion. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
http://drop.sc/386543 ^Was taking my third unsafe in this replay? TvP on Merry Go Round. I do a reaper expand into three rax poke. I don't do much damage with the poke but I don't take any either. Then he all-ins me and all my units melt. I'm not sure if it was my micro, my macro or just my build that was terrible this game. I lost like a scrub. E: yeah, I could just ask "how do you hold a protoss 2 base colossus all-in" | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On September 29 2014 05:25 Incognoto wrote: @B-rye88, no one at platinum level can macro properly so I don't think that's really the problem. That's where you're wrong bro, macro is everything in sc2, at lower level the one with the worse macro will always loose no matter what (well maybe with luck they can win from time to time  )Only in the higher level, when everybody has very good macro, other aspects start to be really important. And that's exactly what I could see in your replay : On September 29 2014 05:25 Incognoto wrote: http://drop.sc/386543 ^Was taking my third unsafe in this replay? TvP on Merry Go Round. I do a reaper expand into three rax poke. I don't do much damage with the poke but I don't take any either. Then he all-ins me and all my units melt. I'm not sure if it was my micro, my macro or just my build that was terrible this game. I lost like a scrub. E: yeah, I could just ask "how do you hold a protoss 2 base colossus all-in" So the first problem here is your macro. Simple benchmark : at 10 mins you have 39 scv, with reaper expand you're supposed to have 50 at least. You're not missing just a couple workers here, you're missing 11, like 400-450 minerals per minute. So after this, what ever your strat is it won't be powerfull enough cause you won't have the army size you're supposed to have. In fact your army size is 36 at 10 mins (75 food total) you should have like 50. 100 food at ten minutes is a nice goal to have. You take your third, but a third is not need if you only have 39 scv, you have like 8 scv mining minerals in your natural, what's the point of taking a third? It should ahve stayed in your main, quietly pumping scv out. This is the main problem : the constant scv and units production has to be you're number one priority, always, until you can do it mechanically without thinking about it. Now the strat : you choose a concusive shell poke, it does nothing and so it does damage you, cause you invested in this push and got no return. In particular you invested gaz. And that damaged your number one gaz spending priority in the match up : stim. To sum up : you have weak economy, you make a push taht costs you gaz (CS + marauders) the result is your stim finishes at 11'46 ... too bad you already lost the game at this point. Not mentionning you haven't started shield at all. What's not good against colossus? marines without stim nor shield. So the guy just casually gets out with one colo (followed by a second) it's not even a real timing he just has thermal lance at this point, but as you have nothing, your army melts. and he goes for the kill. Last the scout : he could have killed you whatever he did cause you were not prepared at all. You need to know what he's going for : templar? blink? DT? startgate? colo? The moment when you realize he s going colo is when you're army dies. That can't work. you have to get a scout at 5'30-6'00 to see what he's doing. had you done this you would have seen the robo, 2 mins later you would have checked again and saw colossus tech and you would have started vikings. if you had the economy you would have had 4+ viking when he got out. Another crucial thing about scouting : if you're going for 3 base and you see no 3rd from the protoss, you have to be scared as hell cause you know you're going to be all-ined. don't go on the map like you did : stay at home, bunker up just put one marine at each 3rd base spot for him and get ready for something huge. If you add everything : porper econmy, proper tech and units production and scout, when he got out of his base with 1.5 colo, 3 sentries, 1 MS core, 4 stalkers a few zealot with thermal lance for only upgrade, you would have had something like : 2-3 medivacs, 4 viking, 6 marauders 25 marines, with stim, shied, cnc shells, +1/+1. You would have CRUSHED his miserable push. So to sum up : drone up and get that economy going! it s the most important thing by far. get stim much earlier and other tech in general (Look at pro replays look at all what they have at 10 minutes) Scout and prepare yourself! Conclusion : do look at the stair case, even if you don't follow it (I didn't) you will learn so many stuff about mechanics you won't regret it... | ||
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rccars
United States10 Posts
so i'm having a particularly frustrating time holding off proxy oracles. In this game i decided to go for the reaper expand into 3rax and i scouted the my opponent's early gasses. I decided to stick with my build thinking that if i survived whatever came then i would be ahead in terms of economy. the oracle came @ 5:35 and at that time i only had 2 marines out. Should i have not expanded and built base defense or is it possible to hold the oracle timing with the reaper expand and that i was simply too slow? | ||
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B-rye88
Canada168 Posts
On September 29 2014 05:25 Incognoto wrote: @B-rye88, no one at platinum level can macro properly so I don't think that's really the problem. If your goal is to beat platinum, then this is valid. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On September 29 2014 07:18 Gwavajuice wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On September 29 2014 05:25 Incognoto wrote: @B-rye88, no one at platinum level can macro properly so I don't think that's really the problem. That's where you're wrong bro, macro is everything in sc2, at lower level the one with the worse macro will always loose no matter what (well maybe with luck they can win from time to time )Only in the higher level, when everybody has very good macro, other aspects start to be really important. And that's exactly what I could see in your replay : On September 29 2014 05:25 Incognoto wrote: http://drop.sc/386543 ^Was taking my third unsafe in this replay? TvP on Merry Go Round. I do a reaper expand into three rax poke. I don't do much damage with the poke but I don't take any either. Then he all-ins me and all my units melt. I'm not sure if it was my micro, my macro or just my build that was terrible this game. I lost like a scrub. E: yeah, I could just ask "how do you hold a protoss 2 base colossus all-in" So the first problem here is your macro. Simple benchmark : at 10 mins you have 39 scv, with reaper expand you're supposed to have 50 at least. You're not missing just a couple workers here, you're missing 11, like 400-450 minerals per minute. So after this, what ever your strat is it won't be powerfull enough cause you won't have the army size you're supposed to have. In fact your army size is 36 at 10 mins (75 food total) you should have like 50. 100 food at ten minutes is a nice goal to have. You take your third, but a third is not need if you only have 39 scv, you have like 8 scv mining minerals in your natural, what's the point of taking a third? It should ahve stayed in your main, quietly pumping scv out. This is the main problem : the constant scv and units production has to be you're number one priority, always, until you can do it mechanically without thinking about it. Now the strat : you choose a concusive shell poke, it does nothing and so it does damage you, cause you invested in this push and got no return. In particular you invested gaz. And that damaged your number one gaz spending priority in the match up : stim. To sum up : you have weak economy, you make a push taht costs you gaz (CS + marauders) the result is your stim finishes at 11'46 ... too bad you already lost the game at this point. Not mentionning you haven't started shield at all. What's not good against colossus? marines without stim nor shield. So the guy just casually gets out with one colo (followed by a second) it's not even a real timing he just has thermal lance at this point, but as you have nothing, your army melts. and he goes for the kill. Last the scout : he could have killed you whatever he did cause you were not prepared at all. You need to know what he's going for : templar? blink? DT? startgate? colo? The moment when you realize he s going colo is when you're army dies. That can't work. you have to get a scout at 5'30-6'00 to see what he's doing. had you done this you would have seen the robo, 2 mins later you would have checked again and saw colossus tech and you would have started vikings. if you had the economy you would have had 4+ viking when he got out. Another crucial thing about scouting : if you're going for 3 base and you see no 3rd from the protoss, you have to be scared as hell cause you know you're going to be all-ined. don't go on the map like you did : stay at home, bunker up just put one marine at each 3rd base spot for him and get ready for something huge. If you add everything : porper econmy, proper tech and units production and scout, when he got out of his base with 1.5 colo, 3 sentries, 1 MS core, 4 stalkers a few zealot with thermal lance for only upgrade, you would have had something like : 2-3 medivacs, 4 viking, 6 marauders 25 marines, with stim, shied, cnc shells, +1/+1. You would have CRUSHED his miserable push. So to sum up : drone up and get that economy going! it s the most important thing by far. get stim much earlier and other tech in general (Look at pro replays look at all what they have at 10 minutes) Scout and prepare yourself! Conclusion : do look at the stair case, even if you don't follow it (I didn't) you will learn so many stuff about mechanics you won't regret it... Thanks for the reply. I have a few more questions then. How do you scout at 5'30-6'00 ? A reaper shouldn't get in, normally it doesn't. Scans are hit and miss, though I guess that's all I can use? So it is truly a macro / build problem. There's no other way then, I'll just work on that in my next games. Thanks for in depth criticism, hopefully the next replay I post here won't be filled with those kinds of mistakes. brb | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On September 29 2014 16:14 Incognoto wrote: Thanks for the reply. I have a few more questions then. How do you scout at 5'30-6'00 ? A reaper shouldn't get in, normally it doesn't. Scans are hit and miss, though I guess that's all I can use? So it is truly a macro / build problem. There's no other way then, I'll just work on that in my next games. Thanks for in depth criticism, hopefully the next replay I post here won't be filled with those kinds of mistakes. brb Np always glad to help when I can (I m not a very good player myself) For the scout, it mainly depends on your reaper. The first scv you send just gives you the gaz timing and detect early chesse/all-ins, then you reaper comes in and his main mission is to find the 3 first pylons of the protoss and to stay alive, you just take a look and run away. The tech will be around one of these 3 pylons. So you park your reaper somewhere (ideally on a spot where he can see things getting out of your opponents base) and when clock hits 5'30 you make a suicide run inside his base trying to stay alive until you see what's around these 3 pylons. It's tricky cause a good protoss will be waiting for you, try to come from a way he s not expecting... If this fail, use a scan, you know where the pylons are, you should know where to scan. A little pressure with a group of units is also usefull : not only you can trigger nexus's canon but also you'll see what units he has, which is a tell when you know protoss builds. Generally speaking, poking his natural frequently is always a good idea, you greatly reduce the chances to be caught of guard. (but don't let your macro slip while doing this, as explained later) That said, Protoss can always hide stuff and surprise you, pro terran do get caught off guard from time to time, it will happen to you too, no big deal, just make sure it's as rare as possible For the build, I didn't look very closely, but it seems to be a build that exists (looks like something Flash did at IEM Toronto or Kespa cup- early concusive shell pressure into macro, is it the build you tried to copy?) and the idea is valid. I have a big warning though that comes from my own experience : Pros have the APM to both go for an early attack and micro perfectly a marine marauder squad and keep on having a perfect macro at the same time. This is not our case. There is no point in going to his base to kill 4 probes, if by doing this you stop producing scv, get supply block and let money go to 1K mineral and 500 gaz. Remember it's easy to forget scv for 51 in-game seconds when you're microing your troops, but with 2 CC 51 seconds is 6scv, it's like your push is autokilling your economy. So until you are comfortable with macroing and multitasking, you have to always prefer builds that allow you stay focused on your base and have a perfect economy and spending until you hit a big timing and make one big attack. Once your perfectly master this basic build you start adding more funky stuff. Hope this helps | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
The build I'm using is an "old" one from Maru actually, Day9 made a daily about it and I've made it my TvP opening, that said I have no real strategy / mid-game plan. Indeed, during fights / harass I tend to let my "macro" (if we can call it that) slip. So that's something I'll be working on. That's one of the things that's so hard with Terran, unlike Zerg I feel. With zerg you can drone, make units and make overlords from just your hatcheries. The only other thing you need to do is inject and that's not very difficult once you get used to it. The larva mechanic also means that macro slip-ups are very easy to recuperate since you can immediately spend all your money at once if you were on top of your injects. The mobility of zerg units and the map presence you get with overlords is just so strong, compared to what Terran has. I've played only Terran for months now and struggling to get this race to work. Whenever I off-race zerg I get easy wins. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On September 28 2014 20:12 padawan1997 wrote: Mech is freakinly strong nowadays in TvT. Can anyone suggest a bio play style against mech? Pure bio is too skinny, while bio tank is absolutely immobile if compare to bio. Hellbat, meh just watch Innovation mech... The worst mistake you can make as a Bionic player versus a Mechanic player is rely too much on attacking. The strength of Mechanic is in having a large army, so 90% of players out there are going to be playing defensively and focusing a lot of their energy on not dying to your cute drop shit; in other words if that is the main crutch of your Bionic vs Mechanic plan then you are basically playing into your opponents strengths. Focus more on controlling space outside of his areas of control, and make it really difficult for him to take expansions or move out on the map. In other words, don't blindly rush into his tank lines and static defenses unless you know you can get damage done. Taking map control with your army, you need to be using that map control and getting an advantage by doing any number of these things: Securing the map with a (large) siege tank count of your own Making a Starport transition. Personally, my favorite variation is the one used by Sterling, where you force Thors with banshees and go straight back into Medivacs and lots of marauders (this relies on a lot of momentum style play) Setting up backstabs and big concaves to hit him as soon as he moves out on the map to kill you or take a 4th Taking an earlier 4th base (This is always good.) Getting a larger tech lab barracks count and more and more marauders (This is probably the most popular thing you can do if you're going to try and tactically outplay him). Consistently denying him the 4th base as long as possible (This is a MUST). These things force him to move into the center of the map where you'll have a lot more options to either directly engage his mechanic army and trade units for siege tanks, or use the opportunity to strike at his bases (since your army will be a lot more nimble to counterattack). Obviously, if you see that your opponent is bad and he can be killed by MMMing him to death then by all means do it, but vs better mechanic players they're going to be expecting it. Lastly, I notice a LOT of lower level Terran players really suck at spending their money versus a mech, because often times they waste time and energy looking for ways to sneak a dropship in. If you're not consistently ahead in supply vs a mechanic player that needs to be the #1 priority over anything else. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
Snute came up with this build vs terran lately, that is kinda powerfull (and not very fun to watch) where he basically opens with stardard zerg stuff into glingbanemuta, but then adds swarhost into the mix. And the terran has to deal both with swarmhost sieging his bases and a big bunch of muta harassing everywhere. Of course if you go on creep gling baneling are waiting for you. As a terran I find it kinda tricky to deal with because getting siege tanks and static D doesn't go too well with chasing muta all arount the map, and while I do this the zerg just expand freely all over the place and adds even more stuff. this is a replay where you can see how bad I am at dealing with this : http://drop.sc/386596 Any tips? | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On September 30 2014 16:57 Gwavajuice wrote: Hi fellow terrans, I tried to a bit of search but seen nothing yet, sorry if this was adressed already : Snute came up with this build vs terran lately, that is kinda powerfull (and not very fun to watch) where he basically opens with stardard zerg stuff into glingbanemuta, but then adds swarhost into the mix. And the terran has to deal both with swarmhost sieging his bases and a big bunch of muta harassing everywhere. Of course if you go on creep gling baneling are waiting for you. As a terran I find it kinda tricky to deal with because getting siege tanks and static D doesn't go too well with chasing muta all arount the map, and while I do this the zerg just expand freely all over the place and adds even more stuff. this is a replay where you can see how bad I am at dealing with this : http://drop.sc/386596 Any tips? Just watched the replay, the reason you lost has a lot more to do with the fact that you got so far behind in the early game going for harassment that did nothing (while cutting workers behind it in the process, probably because your attention was on the harassment), to the extent that you were still at like 55 supply by 10:00 to your opponents 80+. Then you proceded to not split vs banelings during pretty much every engagement, walking onto creep then looking away from your army while it's still in a large ball, ect ect. You also keep attacking with like half of your army, including like 3 of your 7-8 siege tanks, your army composition was much stronger together than apart and your opponent only had like 7 mutas to counterharass with until like 30+ minutes into the game, you should have been attacking with your whole army slowly and well spread. When your opponent can keep using their whole army to kill half your army (especially when you're not splitting) it's going to go very well for him. You also keep dropping in sight of his overlords without stopping to kill the overlords, seriously, if you have a drop and it goes past an overlord assume your opponent has seen it (and dont just continue with the drop and give him free units), and stop to kill the overlord so the next drop wont be seen so far out. Pretty much every drop you do goes past overlords, gets seen and shut down without doing hardly any damage. But the most important part was really just working on splitting your army vs banelings, with good splits you would have won this game easily. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvz/tvz-marus-marinehellionmedivac-timing/ I really like this build and the composition of the push but 14cc on certain maps just seems like suicide and I can't get my hellions out in time to defend an overwhelming ling flood. However pretty much every other build is either 14cc or 12/12 into 3cc. I tried modifying the above build to 12rax/15gas/CC and it seems to work out alright but not sure if there is a more effecient 2base build I should be outlining. I was mainly having issues with gas and mineral timings just trying to create my own out of thin air. | ||
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