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[G] Winning With Ease - Page 12

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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AcesAnoka
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium262 Posts
August 31 2012 20:35 GMT
#221
40 apm or less

zerg

how fitting

User was warned for this post
masters terran eu
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-31 22:47:54
August 31 2012 22:43 GMT
#222
On September 01 2012 04:31 Salient wrote:
I have another suggestion if you're still taking requests:

Matchup: PvT
My build: Parting's double expo 8 gate
His build: CC First or 1 rax expo
Comments: It would be awesome to see your decision making while executing the parting build up to the point of the 8 gate attack. The idea is that you open with a standard 1 gate FE, and transition into the Parting build upon scouting a greedy build. This is supposed to be one of the more difficult builds to execute.


I'd be interested in learning what exactly you want for me to defend here

CC first/1 rax FE into a 10 min MMM push? earlier 8-9 min extra barracks push because he scouted your 3rd? Or do you simply want to see how the parting build is done (which would be a bit different from the rest of the series)


On September 01 2012 05:09 Sianos wrote:
LOL. The immortal allin is the one allin i never stopped once in a TvP and it´s awesome to see that 7! bunkers are needed to hold. But your theory is totally right, as long as you are ahead you can spamm those bunkers like you want and if you repell a push you can just salvage them and build your 3rd + additional barracks. I guess i´ll keep that in mind.

Edit: As for your naming issue i would suggest something like "Holding allins is easy", "How to hold allins" or even "How to get out of bronze/silver/gold whatever. " ^^


Well hopefully in the future you can hold it with this (and let me know how it goes).

As for the naming thing, the names you suggest aren't bad, but the thing is that not all of these are allins and sometimes it's just a decent amount of pressure (like holding the 10 min MMM push that they take a 3rd behind).

I'd say I'm stuck between, "Winning With Ease" and "How to Hold Allins" right now.
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
Natespank
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada449 Posts
September 01 2012 00:09 GMT
#223
Mr. Llama, your videos are making it harder and harder for me to all-in people.

Speaking of all-ins though, the one that I still find works wonders against people is the TvP 3rax before orbital, supply drop, scv all in build. I saw it first on a Kespa player's stream (he died to it), and somebody in chat said it was 12/13/13 rax with supply drop. My practice partner simply could not find a way to hold it short of blind countering it with cannons when I used it on him at a platinum level.

MVP did a version of it against Naniwa previous to his recent-ish GSL win on Entombed Valley. Any chance of a video on shutting that down?

Great work so far!
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-01 01:17:35
September 01 2012 01:16 GMT
#224
On September 01 2012 09:09 Natespank wrote:
Mr. Llama, your videos are making it harder and harder for me to all-in people.

Speaking of all-ins though, the one that I still find works wonders against people is the TvP 3rax before orbital, supply drop, scv all in build. I saw it first on a Kespa player's stream (he died to it), and somebody in chat said it was 12/13/13 rax with supply drop. My practice partner simply could not find a way to hold it short of blind countering it with cannons when I used it on him at a platinum level.

MVP did a version of it against Naniwa previous to his recent-ish GSL win on Entombed Valley. Any chance of a video on shutting that down?

Great work so far!


haha I apologize for making your starcraft life more difficult.

I'll have to look into that 3 rax build more. those early rax can be extremely strong so I'll have to check the timings on it and see how pros hold it and what could be an easy way to show others how to hold it.

btw, new episode is up: Holding Immortal Sentry all in (ZvP)

www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
Natespank
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada449 Posts
September 01 2012 01:43 GMT
#225
Cool, thanks!
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-01 01:46:31
September 01 2012 01:44 GMT
#226
On September 01 2012 07:43 MrLlama wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2012 04:31 Salient wrote:
I have another suggestion if you're still taking requests:

Matchup: PvT
My build: Parting's double expo 8 gate
His build: CC First or 1 rax expo
Comments: It would be awesome to see your decision making while executing the parting build up to the point of the 8 gate attack. The idea is that you open with a standard 1 gate FE, and transition into the Parting build upon scouting a greedy build. This is supposed to be one of the more difficult builds to execute.


I'd be interested in learning what exactly you want for me to defend here

CC first/1 rax FE into a 10 min MMM push? earlier 8-9 min extra barracks push because he scouted your 3rd? Or do you simply want to see how the parting build is done (which would be a bit different from the rest of the series)


Show nested quote +
On September 01 2012 05:09 Sianos wrote:
LOL. The immortal allin is the one allin i never stopped once in a TvP and it´s awesome to see that 7! bunkers are needed to hold. But your theory is totally right, as long as you are ahead you can spamm those bunkers like you want and if you repell a push you can just salvage them and build your 3rd + additional barracks. I guess i´ll keep that in mind.

Edit: As for your naming issue i would suggest something like "Holding allins is easy", "How to hold allins" or even "How to get out of bronze/silver/gold whatever. " ^^


Well hopefully in the future you can hold it with this (and let me know how it goes).

As for the naming thing, the names you suggest aren't bad, but the thing is that not all of these are allins and sometimes it's just a decent amount of pressure (like holding the 10 min MMM push that they take a 3rd behind).

I'd say I'm stuck between, "Winning With Ease" and "How to Hold Allins" right now.


I mostly just wanted to see how it's possible to stay alive vs bio pushes when doing the Parting double expo. It seems like you should be too spread out to defend all three bases from bio pushes that hit before all your gateways are up and your bases saturated. So I guess that would be where he goes for extra barracks and pushes to punish the early 3rd.

sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
September 01 2012 01:47 GMT
#227
Mr. Llama, these videos aren't bad but I would request that some of the really hard-to-win-against builds be re-done with a more difficult opponent. Your immortal/sentry opponent was almost 110 seconds late with his 3 immortal push. That push should be arriving right around 10:00-10:30.

If you would like, I can ask several real-life friends of mine who are Grandmasters of various ranks to do the 3 immortal push against you and you can show us there how you beat it. Your zerg is around my level and I would really like to see someone beat the push when executed by GM or higher. PM me if you're interested in having higher-level opponents to show these defenses off against.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
September 01 2012 02:39 GMT
#228
On September 01 2012 10:44 Salient wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2012 07:43 MrLlama wrote:
On September 01 2012 04:31 Salient wrote:
I have another suggestion if you're still taking requests:

Matchup: PvT
My build: Parting's double expo 8 gate
His build: CC First or 1 rax expo
Comments: It would be awesome to see your decision making while executing the parting build up to the point of the 8 gate attack. The idea is that you open with a standard 1 gate FE, and transition into the Parting build upon scouting a greedy build. This is supposed to be one of the more difficult builds to execute.


I'd be interested in learning what exactly you want for me to defend here

CC first/1 rax FE into a 10 min MMM push? earlier 8-9 min extra barracks push because he scouted your 3rd? Or do you simply want to see how the parting build is done (which would be a bit different from the rest of the series)


On September 01 2012 05:09 Sianos wrote:
LOL. The immortal allin is the one allin i never stopped once in a TvP and it´s awesome to see that 7! bunkers are needed to hold. But your theory is totally right, as long as you are ahead you can spamm those bunkers like you want and if you repell a push you can just salvage them and build your 3rd + additional barracks. I guess i´ll keep that in mind.

Edit: As for your naming issue i would suggest something like "Holding allins is easy", "How to hold allins" or even "How to get out of bronze/silver/gold whatever. " ^^


Well hopefully in the future you can hold it with this (and let me know how it goes).

As for the naming thing, the names you suggest aren't bad, but the thing is that not all of these are allins and sometimes it's just a decent amount of pressure (like holding the 10 min MMM push that they take a 3rd behind).

I'd say I'm stuck between, "Winning With Ease" and "How to Hold Allins" right now.


I mostly just wanted to see how it's possible to stay alive vs bio pushes when doing the Parting double expo. It seems like you should be too spread out to defend all three bases from bio pushes that hit before all your gateways are up and your bases saturated. So I guess that would be where he goes for extra barracks and pushes to punish the early 3rd.



Alright I'll have him go for an 8-9 min push before medivacs and with extra rax to try and punish the early 3rd.

On September 01 2012 10:47 sCCrooked wrote:
Mr. Llama, these videos aren't bad but I would request that some of the really hard-to-win-against builds be re-done with a more difficult opponent. Your immortal/sentry opponent was almost 110 seconds late with his 3 immortal push. That push should be arriving right around 10:00-10:30.

If you would like, I can ask several real-life friends of mine who are Grandmasters of various ranks to do the 3 immortal push against you and you can show us there how you beat it. Your zerg is around my level and I would really like to see someone beat the push when executed by GM or higher. PM me if you're interested in having higher-level opponents to show these defenses off against.


I'd be willing to play against a GM who pushes out earlier, that being said you also have to note that his push will contain less units. (Where as my opponent saw that I had a mass amount of lings so he waited to get 2 rounds of zealots in first before making his push, hence the delay).

My opponents push contained, 3 immortals, 1 stalker, 19 zealots, and 17 sentries (because like I said, he waited)

Taking a look at Grubby's push, he had 3 immortals, 10 stalkers, 8 sentries, and 2 zealots (but he also was fighting vs mostly roaches and not lings). His push hit at 10:30.

Thus the difference in supplies were my opponent hit with 34 more supply in units than grubby did, but he hit 110 seconds later since he knew he needed zealots to be effective vs my army.

Off of 7 gates (14 supply per warp), it was basically 2 1/2 warp ins extra of units that he took (plus he is only high masters and not GM or pro like grubby).

All in all, I'd say the strength of my opponent was still extremely strong. It hit later but it was a much higher army value that included a delay because of his reaction to my tech choice. I think it could've been a little bit better had a GM or pro player done it but it definitely was representative of a mid-high masters push. That being said, I'd still be willing to play one of your buddies and try to defend it. I'm not a GM though so it's possible they simply win by just being really good GM players with better mechanics and micro than me.
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
September 01 2012 02:56 GMT
#229
Well although his push will contain slightly less units, also remember you will be just starting to get an army together. The real problem with this push when its executed well is really the timing. When you have between minute mark 8 and minute mark 12 (+some seconds) to get lots of units, their push becomes significantly less threatening.

That being said, its also really important since Immortal/Sentry is one of THE biggest things Zergs are having difficulty with to see its "proper defense" being done against a proper timing with good macro and follow-up being done behind it.

I wasn't being sarcastic with my statement of wanting to see you counter it either. I absolutely hate this push. It forces me to base-trade and hope he doesn't pay enough attention to what in his army is firing at what and his destruction of my bases is slightly slower than mine of his (although 3 immortals kill buildings really freaking fast). If ling/festor could work against the 2 and 3 immortal timings, I really want to know about it.

However since my practice is almost all entirely GM or 1600+ points master, I have to see it against good timings. I've seen someone breaking a really fast 3 base toss with festor/ling drops and it was really neat to see someone come up with something out of the ordinary roach/ling bore-fest we currently are dealing with. I have tried my own version of festor/ling before against immo/sentry because I thought fungals might be the key, but my GM friends showed me that with proper timing, its a lot scarier to deal with because you have so few forces.

I also think its really important to see someone who has really good positioning and micro with his push too. Without that, yeah any immo/sentry can be crushed if they suck, but I'd rather not base advice on "well if they suck, do action x".

I'll contact them tomorrow and see if one of the P will play you during one of our practice sessions sometime. Let me know when a good time in the next say 2 weeks or so would be for you~

*Note* I just looked through 35 replays of vs immo/sentry in my rep folder. The Ps consistently had 3 immortals, 12 sentries, 1 stalker, 5 zealots, 1 warpprism, 1 observer (on its way across the map) and +1 weapons completed with +2 on the way. This all arrives at your front (not leaving their base, its AT your bases attacking your stuff already) around 9:45-10:00. Your opponent had many more zealots, but remember those warp-ins could've been happening at your front while he lets both his army and the timing he hits to deal optimal damage.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
September 01 2012 03:13 GMT
#230
On September 01 2012 11:56 sCCrooked wrote:
Well although his push will contain slightly less units, also remember you will be just starting to get an army together. The real problem with this push when its executed well is really the timing. When you have between minute mark 8 and minute mark 12 (+some seconds) to get lots of units, their push becomes significantly less threatening.

That being said, its also really important since Immortal/Sentry is one of THE biggest things Zergs are having difficulty with to see its "proper defense" being done against a proper timing with good macro and follow-up being done behind it.

I wasn't being sarcastic with my statement of wanting to see you counter it either. I absolutely hate this push. It forces me to base-trade and hope he doesn't pay enough attention to what in his army is firing at what and his destruction of my bases is slightly slower than mine of his (although 3 immortals kill buildings really freaking fast). If ling/festor could work against the 2 and 3 immortal timings, I really want to know about it.

However since my practice is almost all entirely GM or 1600+ points master, I have to see it against good timings. I've seen someone breaking a really fast 3 base toss with festor/ling drops and it was really neat to see someone come up with something out of the ordinary roach/ling bore-fest we currently are dealing with. I have tried my own version of festor/ling before against immo/sentry because I thought fungals might be the key, but my GM friends showed me that with proper timing, its a lot scarier to deal with because you have so few forces.

I also think its really important to see someone who has really good positioning and micro with his push too. Without that, yeah any immo/sentry can be crushed if they suck, but I'd rather not base advice on "well if they suck, do action x".

I'll contact them tomorrow and see if one of the P will play you during one of our practice sessions sometime. Let me know when a good time in the next say 2 weeks or so would be for you~

*Note* I just looked through 35 replays of vs immo/sentry in my rep folder. The Ps consistently had 3 immortals, 12 sentries, 1 stalker, 5 zealots, 1 warpprism, 1 observer (on its way across the map) and +1 weapons completed with +2 on the way. This all arrives at your front (not leaving their base, its AT your bases attacking your stuff already) around 9:45-10:00. Your opponent had many more zealots, but remember those warp-ins could've been happening at your front while he lets both his army and the timing he hits to deal optimal damage.


I'm very surprised to hear 9:45-10:00 is when the push hit considering from when I watch the pros it more often hits at 10:30. My assumption is that the people you're playing are opting to hit with a weaker army at a faster time while the pros have found that a 10:30 hit with the 1 additional warp in is maybe stronger? Not sure, I'd have to talk with them to understand their reasoning for that.

I do agree that the 10:30 hit would probably be scarier though because I'll have less forces. I think for this I'd have to grab an even faster lair, maybe cut a couple more drones, and then hope to have enough army out in time. the problem is it's really hard to find a good way to defeat this because whenever I watch pros, I never see a zerg truly defend it...he either loses, the protoss makes a mistake, or the zerg drops down to 2 bases with 20 spines in his natural while he techs to mutas and base trades. It'd definitely take some testing but I think that my video for now is a great way to hold (and really hold) a non-sentry immortal GM push.

Yeah just hit me up and let me know what they say. I can't play tomorrow because I'm going out of town for labor day weekend so it'd either have to be right now or next week sometime.
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
September 01 2012 03:18 GMT
#231
No problem. They're all taking it easy for Labor Day weekend too so they probably won't play this weekend. However all next week we're supposed to be in practice so I'll ask them then. I'll PM you on here when I get a response so we can coordinate. Oh, and if you're a follower of the foreign scene, you'll know quite a few of the guys. A lot of them are WCS finalists/national champions so it could be argued you'll be showing us a video vs active progamer.

I don't even care if they transition out of it somehow, just as long as you somehow don't die to this certain *!@&ing timing, I'll know the composition can deal with the timing and thus I can go back to experimenting/tweaking it.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-01 05:12:35
September 01 2012 05:05 GMT
#232
On September 01 2012 12:18 sCCrooked wrote:
No problem. They're all taking it easy for Labor Day weekend too so they probably won't play this weekend. However all next week we're supposed to be in practice so I'll ask them then. I'll PM you on here when I get a response so we can coordinate. Oh, and if you're a follower of the foreign scene, you'll know quite a few of the guys. A lot of them are WCS finalists/national champions so it could be argued you'll be showing us a video vs active progamer.

I don't even care if they transition out of it somehow, just as long as you somehow don't die to this certain *!@&ing timing, I'll know the composition can deal with the timing and thus I can go back to experimenting/tweaking it.


Believe me, just surviving is good enough. Definitely one of the strongest pushes in the game right now.

Also, here's an episode I recorded a couple of days ago that I figured could be added to the series. It was in response to the ZvP Ramp block that belial88 added a few days ago

www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
SeAK
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada69 Posts
September 01 2012 05:29 GMT
#233
any terrans in masters with under 50 apm?
Sianos
Profile Joined April 2011
580 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-01 09:24:00
September 01 2012 09:04 GMT
#234
Hi MrLlama,

i have a request for video.

Matchup: TvT
My build: 1 rax fe into 3 rax into reactor medivacs
His build: Cloak Banshee opening into marine,siegetank,banshee scv allin
Maps: Like Shakuras Plateau where Banshee play is strong
Comment: The problem with this allin is that the cloak banshees give him total mapcontrol, which makes it almost impossible to see his push comming and catch it right in the middle of the map. Another problem is that his banshees can bind some of your marines in your minerallines even if you make 1 turret at each base, which reduce the force you can throw at him when you finally see his marines, siegetanks and scvs comming. I never hold it once.
Replay: TvT_Shakuras
This is just a sample, since i don´t play very much i have very few replays of this allin, but it gives you a rough idea. The version where he pushes out a bit later with more stuff and all his scvs is a lot harder to defend then the version the player used aggainst me in this replay. He even ddin´t got the cloak upgrade, i think because i scanned his banshee build.

bigtabs
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany51 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-01 09:09:40
September 01 2012 09:08 GMT
#235
On September 01 2012 14:29 SeAK wrote:
any terrans in masters with under 50 apm?


It's amazing how many people completely miss the point of what the OP is doing, even though he's explained it over and again and is a very simple concept. Hopefully the thread rename will help remove the pointless discussions.
MrLlama
Profile Joined December 2010
United States454 Posts
September 01 2012 20:59 GMT
#236
On September 01 2012 18:08 bigtabs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2012 14:29 SeAK wrote:
any terrans in masters with under 50 apm?


It's amazing how many people completely miss the point of what the OP is doing, even though he's explained it over and again and is a very simple concept. Hopefully the thread rename will help remove the pointless discussions.


Haha yeah that's why I simply changed the name. People focused too much on the APM instead of the decision making so I figured Winning With Ease was more suitable and could help get people more on track.

On September 01 2012 18:04 Sianos wrote:
Hi MrLlama,

i have a request for video.

Matchup: TvT
My build: 1 rax fe into 3 rax into reactor medivacs
His build: Cloak Banshee opening into marine,siegetank,banshee scv allin
Maps: Like Shakuras Plateau where Banshee play is strong
Comment: The problem with this allin is that the cloak banshees give him total mapcontrol, which makes it almost impossible to see his push comming and catch it right in the middle of the map. Another problem is that his banshees can bind some of your marines in your minerallines even if you make 1 turret at each base, which reduce the force you can throw at him when you finally see his marines, siegetanks and scvs comming. I never hold it once.
Replay: TvT_Shakuras
This is just a sample, since i don´t play very much i have very few replays of this allin, but it gives you a rough idea. The version where he pushes out a bit later with more stuff and all his scvs is a lot harder to defend then the version the player used aggainst me in this replay. He even ddin´t got the cloak upgrade, i think because i scanned his banshee build.



Okay so you want me to have him push out a little later with more stuff. Any specific number of banshees/tanks/marines you want him to push with or just kinda ballpark it?
www.youtube.com/mrllamasc << Casting & Analysis Videos
habermas
Profile Joined June 2010
United Kingdom304 Posts
September 02 2012 02:10 GMT
#237
Cool series. If you're out of ideas I'd like to see how do you defend the following:
- proxy 2 gate (10, 11) as protoss with 13 gate scout and as zerg with 15 pool
- 4 gate warp prism as terran doing 1 rax FE, the robo maybe proxied so you have 7 zealots and a stalker in your main at 6:30
Walitgon
Profile Joined May 2012
Australia550 Posts
September 02 2012 02:14 GMT
#238
If you get infestors out in time for the sentry immortal all-in, they executed it wrong.
BRB laddering ^_^ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Amridell
Profile Joined December 2011
188 Posts
September 02 2012 02:49 GMT
#239
Nice name change. I like it better than 40 apm or less
"As to the pool game. You'll notice he played like a faggot."
ODKStevez
Profile Joined February 2011
Ireland1225 Posts
September 02 2012 03:22 GMT
#240
This is really useful, thank you showed this to a few friends that are having trouble with them nasty 6-8 gates xD
Luppa <3
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