On August 25 2012 04:41 caznitch wrote: Thanks for the response. I'll rewatch the videos to pick up on the more subtle things you mentioned.
And yes, you did kill the 3rd in the TvZ... I guess I have a terrible memory!
okay! I'll try to incorporate your feedback into the newer videos though.
On August 25 2012 03:50 Garhf wrote: Interesting take on the 3 pylon block. On a related note, do you think lower apm improves decision making more? I want to have the right reactions to things instead of throwing away inefficient 200/200 armies
That's the way I react currently to a 3 pylon block when they add the pylon and extra cannons. If they do not, I'll just chill in my base and drone up while the spine/queen pick away at the pylons then I'll be free to take my natural and 3rd with infestors. Either way the proper reaction is DO NOT PANIC AND MAKE LINGS
on your related note, I think this series has definitely helped me out, especially in terms of being able to analyze why I lost a game. I think it's right to play with whatever your APM is and not try and lower it, but now when I look at engagements or games that I lost I can take a step back, look at the very basic things (like a lack of a flank in a certain direction or something), and take note of how much that 1 decision to move units in a flank position or something would've changed the tide of the battle.
It's really impressive how much the small decisions matter, and this series has definitely helped me understand what exactly they are (because I have to limit myself to them only)
On August 21 2012 03:00 Salient wrote: Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
Yeah I definitely think this is an important one to cover. I'll be popping it out sometime this week for ya
Thanks for considering the video I suggested. It's a pretty complicated strategy. It would be amazing to see it work with relatively low APM.
I've added a video, hopefully it suits what you were looking for:
On August 21 2012 03:00 Salient wrote: Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
Yeah I definitely think this is an important one to cover. I'll be popping it out sometime this week for ya
Thanks for considering the video I suggested. It's a pretty complicated strategy. It would be amazing to see it work with relatively low APM.
On August 21 2012 03:00 Salient wrote: Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
Yeah I definitely think this is an important one to cover. I'll be popping it out sometime this week for ya
Thanks for considering the video I suggested. It's a pretty complicated strategy. It would be amazing to see it work with relatively low APM.
I just watched your video and there are a lot of problems with it. First, you don't go for the CreatorPrime style. You do your own little build, something weird like 2 gate into forge into gate into robo into forge. This wildly different from the CreatorPrime style. Creator gets these buildings in a particular order for a particular reason. With your delayed gates, you'll have trouble dealing with marine pressure, (4 or 5 rax no gas off of 1 rax cc). The delayed robo also causes a big problem. Early scouting and reacting is a big part of the Creator build, something you don't have.
With regards to the push, your Terran opponent didn't seem to do the push properly. At 10 minutes, a Terran is supposed to have around 25 marines, 2-3 marauders, and 2 medivacs. Your opponent seems to have way more marauders and way fewer marines, which makes the push much less powerful. Also, the map you chose isn't a particular good map for this push. Something like Antiga or Entombed would be worlds better and wouldn't give you an initial advantage.
Finally, yes, your build does well against the initial 10 minute push due to your high number of gateway units. However, what a Terran is supposed to do if he scouts your heavy gateway count is just take a third while building up his army. Instead, your opponent attacks straight into your army, which is designed to repel that attack. Without colossi, you will never ever be able to safely take a third with your style against a good Terran who does a marine heavy standard build.
Basically add a 4th gate quickly and use the power of 4 gates to defend the initial attack. It'll be much harder than what Llama shows, because you'll have less units. However, by getting a faster robotics bay, you'll be able to eventually take a 3rd faster and more safely. Basically this smooths out your defensive strength across the mid game. With Llama's build you'll be very strong at 10 minutes, but much weaker at 12 minutes.
I wrote about it here:
On July 16 2012 00:07 NrGmonk wrote: For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings.
Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army.
Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast.
On August 21 2012 03:00 Salient wrote: Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
Yeah I definitely think this is an important one to cover. I'll be popping it out sometime this week for ya
Thanks for considering the video I suggested. It's a pretty complicated strategy. It would be amazing to see it work with relatively low APM.
I just watched your video and there are a lot of problems with it. First, you don't go for the CreatorPrime style. You do your own little build, something weird like 2 gate into forge into gate into robo into forge. This wildly different from the CreatorPrime style. Creator gets these buildings in a particular order for a particular reason. With your delayed gates, you'll have trouble dealing with marine pressure, (4 or 5 rax no gas off of 1 rax cc). The delayed robo also causes a big problem. Early scouting and reacting is a big part of the Creator build, something you don't have.
With regards to the push, your Terran opponent didn't seem to do the push properly. At 10 minutes, a Terran is supposed to have around 25 marines, 2-3 marauders, and 2 medivacs. Your opponent seems to have way more marauders and way fewer marines, which makes the push much less powerful. Also, the map you chose isn't a particular good map for this push. Something like Antiga or Entombed would be worlds better and wouldn't give you an initial advantage.
Finally, yes, your build does well against the initial 10 minute push due to your high number of gateway units. However, what a Terran is supposed to do if he scouts your heavy gateway count is just take a third while building up his army. Instead, your opponent attacks straight into your army, which is designed to repel that attack. Without colossi, you will never ever be able to safely take a third with your style against a good Terran who does a marine heavy standard build.
Basically add a 4th gate quickly and use the power of 4 gates to defend the initial attack. It'll be much harder than what Llama shows, because you'll have less units. However, by getting a faster robotics bay, you'll be able to eventually take a 3rd faster and more safely. Basically this smooths out your defensive strength across the mid game. With Llama's build you'll be very strong at 10 minutes, but much weaker at 12 minutes.
On July 16 2012 00:07 NrGmonk wrote: For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings.
Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army.
Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast.
I appreciate all of the feedback and I'd love to respond
1. I know this is not the creatorprime double forge opener. This is a ROOT players opener that I talk about is a modification of the double forge because this build will actually get you an additional upgrade (since you take a forge earlier) so when he hit with his timing push, I had 2-1 vs his 0-1 instead of the creator build which would only give me 1-1.
This build will actually deal with the early rine pressure just fine. I watched the player do this build about 4-5 times vs a variety of attacks and timings and he was able to handle it just fine. With regards to the 4-5 rax, you have the sentries to hold the ramp until you can warp in stalkers which you can then push down and take out his force. Your nexus WILL take damage but it's 2000 health so this gives you a lot of time to deal with this.
In terms of scouting, the robotics facility will normally pop at the exact same time as in the creatorprime double forge build.
quick edit: OHHH in this game I delay the robotics facility accidentally more because I snag another sentry. That was an accident on my part, normally you will get the robotics facility earlier after that first sentry and forge upgrade go down. I apologize, for this series I'm having to learn so many builds and this one I missed 1-2 things like this. That being said, I have seen the robotics facility been taken a little bit later and the unit composition if he goes for an earlier push (from what I've seen) should be able to defend, even if you don't have a scout on it.
In terms of my terran opponent, he is a mid-high masters player so I just trusted he could do the push closely. Looking back, he has 21 marines, 8 marauders, 2 medivacs. Not too different but yes it wasn't exactly the same.
Finally you say:
Basically add a 4th gate quickly and use the power of 4 gates to defend the initial attack. It'll be much harder than what Llama shows, because you'll have less units. However, by getting a faster robotics bay, you'll be able to eventually take a 3rd faster and more safely. Basically this smooths out your defensive strength across the mid game. With Llama's build you'll be very strong at 10 minutes, but much weaker at 12 minutes.
Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark.
If you note my game, I throw down my 4th gateway at 6:35 actually so I am actually doing what you are saying. I also do not add on the 5th and 6th gateways until like 10 minutes so they aren't even a factor during the attack really. (basically I'm saying we both are defending off of the 4 gates).
I think there is definitely room for exploration here. my macro fell and I got supply blocked (was so sad) but in that time you could easily be throwing down a robotics bay and then have collosus to get out. Plus you have to remember you have an extra upgrade on top of creatorprimes double forge build.
I think they are just different builds but I truly believe both work. I know I didn't optimally do mine, but you have to also remember I'm trying to play with 40apm (ended up with 50) so it can be difficult to do EVERYTHING and for this series I'm just trying to really fulfill requests such as "how do I hold this push that kills me".
Lastly, you say my opponent pushed when he shouldn't have. 1. I was only pumping off 4 gates, not 6, just like you were talking about. 2. the extra upgrade is what really turned the battle in my opinion 3. the map was just a random pick of the map. I agree it could've been a worse map so sorry. 4. he pushed because the video was called "how to defend this push." If he doesn't push in and just backs off, people won't see the strength of the build and how they can hold.
In terms of my terran opponent, he is a mid-high masters player so I just trusted he could do the push closely. Looking back, he has 21 marines, 8 marauders, 2 medivacs. Not too different but yes it wasn't exactly the same.
I just opened up some pro-level games of a proper 10 minute double reactor push for some exact numbers. I was estimating before. At the 10 minute mark the first game has 28 marines, 3 marauders, and 2 medivacs. The second game has 27 marines, 1 marauder, and 20 medivacs at 9 minutes. At 10 minutes, 31 marines, 3 marauders, and 4 medivacs. This represents a huge difference from what you showed in the ratio of marines to marauders, as the marines represent the vast majority of the dps and are key to the effectiveness of the build.
Also, you didn't address my biggest issue, which was that it's extremely difficult to take a third safely at an early enough time with just gateway units with no other tech with your particular build. At some point, your opponent should be able to hit a strong timing to deny this base or kill you.
I still have some other problems, but they're rather minor compared to these big two I mentioned.
Edit: Perhaps I don't understand this series well. I'm trying to approach this from the perspective of a good tutorial without the 40 apm restriction. I don't know exactly how this all factors in or what the purpose of the 40 apm thing is, so please keep that in mind with what I'm saying.
In terms of my terran opponent, he is a mid-high masters player so I just trusted he could do the push closely. Looking back, he has 21 marines, 8 marauders, 2 medivacs. Not too different but yes it wasn't exactly the same.
I just opened up some pro-level games of a proper 10 minute double reactor push for some exact numbers. I was estimating before. At the 10 minute mark the first game has 28 marines, 3 marauders, and 2 medivacs. The second game has 27 marines, 1 marauder, and 20 medivacs at 9 minutes. At 10 minutes, 31 marines, 3 marauders, and 4 medivacs. This represents a huge difference from what you showed in the ratio of marines to marauders, as the marines represent the vast majority of the dps and are key to the effectiveness of the build.
Also, you didn't address my biggest issue, which was that it's extremely difficult to take a third safely at an early enough time with just gateway units with no other tech with your particular build. At some point, your opponent should be able to hit a strong timing to deny this base or kill you.
I still have some other problems, but they're rather minor compared to these big two I mentioned.
Edit: Perhaps I don't understand this series well. I'm trying to approach this from the perspective of a good tutorial without the 40 apm restriction. I don't know exactly how this all factors in or what the purpose of the 40 apm thing is, so please keep that in mind with what I'm saying.
Okay, well he chose for a slighty more marauder heavy style of the push then I suppose. I'm still pretty sure I would've been able to hold though even if he had 5-6 less marauders and 7-10 more marines. Yes it would boost the dps up a ton but the survivability of the army would drop some as well. I'd be willing to show my build against the 28 marines 3 marauders 2 medivacs and prove it still works if that's what you'd like.
As for your biggest issue, I suppose I have some questions then. Reading your guide it says:
Third timing: You will not want to expand to a third until you’ve scouted your opponent has taken a third unless you’re way ahead. You will need every unit you can get to hold pushes and you can’t really afford to spread too thin versus drop play. Don’t be afraid of the Terran getting a economical advantage, because as long as you start your 3rd nexus within a minute after he does, you should be fine as your upgrades can carry you through late game.
11:25 Robotics bay
so by your guide (which is behind in upgrades to my build might I add so it's easier to take a 3rd with my upgrade advantage on gateway units), you are taking a robotics bay at 11:25, which means it finishes at 12:30, which means your first collosus isn't out until 13:45 (w/o CB so a little earlier).
You say you can't take a 3rd until you have splash from collo yet you also say it needs to be within a minute of your opponents (who is going to have his 3rd started at 10:30-11:00 min). So which is it? I suppose I'd like a little more info at this point of the game.
As for my build, I think the templar archives and charge could definitely be started earlier to help ease the 3rd base to go down (as well as provide a templar with feedback to protect my base). I was playing into an archon-chargelot sort of build (though I overmade stalkers a tad) that would have a 3-4 upgrade advantage and thus you could either push out with it and hit a nice push where you just swarm them with charge and superior upgrades, or you could take a 3rd base with and then continue play from there.
The purpose of the 40 apm thing is to show players how to not panic. From my experience, when players get in these situations they try to think what pros would do (which is a LOT of apm) and they try to simple do too much because they don't know what the best decisions and reactions are. So I try and show things like, "Put a few stalkers up here, get ready to drop forcefields with sentries, warp in zealots, etc" all while using minimal apm so there aren't 1000 things going on where it's confusing to them. Sometimes this means I can't be optimal in my engagements or play (which I've explained in the OP) but I show that you can still hold and be okay if you don't have the apm to play optimally and can only make a few decisions during a battle.
Just a heads up, the questions I pose are not trying to be hateful or anything, it's just honest curiosity. My build definitely allows you to throw down a robotics bay at 11:25 if you wish, in which case I fail to see the difference between either of us taking a 3rd. I just choose to go templar/archon tech this time around (though it could've been dropped sooner, but then again it really only needed to be dropped if he had backed off because once he lost his army I could easily take my 3rd)
On August 26 2012 12:08 MrLlama wrote: Okay, well he chose for a slighty more marauder heavy style of the push then I suppose. I'm still pretty sure I would've been able to hold though even if he had 5-6 less marauders and 7-10 more marines. Yes it would boost the dps up a ton but the survivability of the army would drop some as well. I'd be willing to show my build against the 28 marines 3 marauders 2 medivacs and prove it still works if that's what you'd like.
I think you can probably hold too, especially on Ohana. But i'm just pointing out that big difference and want to make sure you acknowledge it. I would offer to test with you, but my GPU or PSU broke a while ago, so I can't play =(.
As for your biggest issue, I suppose I have some questions then. Reading your guide it says:
Third timing: You will not want to expand to a third until you’ve scouted your opponent has taken a third unless you’re way ahead. You will need every unit you can get to hold pushes and you can’t really afford to spread too thin versus drop play. Don’t be afraid of the Terran getting a economical advantage, because as long as you start your 3rd nexus within a minute after he does, you should be fine as your upgrades can carry you through late game.
so by your guide (which is behind in upgrades to my build might I add so it's easier to take a 3rd with my upgrade advantage on gateway units), you are taking a robotics bay at 11:25, which means it finishes at 12:30, which means your first collosus isn't out until 13:45 (w/o CB so a little earlier).
You say you can't take a 3rd until you have splash from collo yet you also say it needs to be within a minute of your opponents (who is going to have his 3rd started at 10:30-11:00 min). So which is it? I suppose I'd like a little more info at this point of the game.
The misunderstand comes from the fact that I haven't updated my guide in a while. The guide I originally wrote is about a year old, as that's when Creator first used this style. At the point, the 2 reactor push was not popular at all. It was made popular mostly by MKP, especially during his game(s) vs Parting in the GSTL finals back in March of this year I believe. Since then, this build has become very popular and I've gotten tons of people asking about it in my guide. See the last three pages of my guide for all those questions. My OP of that thread isn't updated to address these changes. Instead, my quote from July 16th both in this thread and in my CreatorPrime guide addresses this problem.
If you follow the original build I have in my guide with the old 3 gate opening into late robo bay, you'll have a lot of trouble with this push. But with the faster 4th gate and faster robo bay, you'll do a lot better. As I explained before, the 4th gate helps with defending the 10 minute push while the robo bay allows you to take an expo earlier. Both are direct reactions to the new double reactor build. I guess I should update my guide sometime. =/
Also, I know you're not trying to be hateful. No probs!
If you follow the original build I have in my guide with the old 3 gate opening into late robo bay, you'll have a lot of trouble with this push. But with the faster 4th gate and faster robo bay, you'll do a lot better. As I explained before, the 4th gate helps with defending the 10 minute push while the robo bay allows you to take an expo earlier. Both are direct reactions to the new double reactor build. I guess I should update my guide sometime. =/
Hmm, okay well I do have the faster 4th gate in my build so I'm not sure where that difference comes into play, but I think the robo bay would probably be good to address to take a faster expo. I thought that with the upgrades and then getting charge/archons you would be safe to take a 3rd but I suppose a faster 3rd would be good to take so then throwing down a robotics bay would be helpful to have. I have the robotics facility and the 4 gates and everything so possibly just saving a little gas from making a couple more zealots instead of stalkers (which I needed to do anyways) would allow me to throw it down earlier and in time to take the 3rd safely with collosus.
Added another episode. This one tackles the ever so scary 1 base blink stalker all in.
a couple of notes i'd like to make 1. you don't always have to sacrifice your natural, some maps you can hold it a lot easier. On cloud though there is just too much room in my opinion and it can be very difficult to hold your natural. I also sack the natural because it takes less APM to hold 1 base than going back and forth for 2, but you can still come out ahead either way. 2. I know my apm hit like 65 for this game. I think this is probably one of the more micro intensive pushes to hold (since your defenses are thin and his push is so strong) so it may require a little bit more focus
I'd be interested in seeing how you defend the TvP 1-1-1 with 40 APM. The early harass in particular seems like it would be very difficult to hold with such low APM.
I think the main point of this series is not to advocate slow APM, but to advocate good decision making. Being fast is wonderful sure, but being accurate is more important. I've seen replays of LastShadow, an incredibly fast player, wiff upgrades because he's moving too fast and literally spamming back and forth. Accuracy comes with practice and speed will come with repetition, that's how I see it, my APM is really low, but I'm only a Plat player, so I try to make the most out of what I can do and sooner or later my speed will gradually increase.
On August 27 2012 09:23 FortMonty wrote: I think the main point of this series is not to advocate slow APM, but to advocate good decision making. Being fast is wonderful sure, but being accurate is more important. I've seen replays of LastShadow, an incredibly fast player, wiff upgrades because he's moving too fast and literally spamming back and forth. Accuracy comes with practice and speed will come with repetition, that's how I see it, my APM is really low, but I'm only a Plat player, so I try to make the most out of what I can do and sooner or later my speed will gradually increase.
Yep. I'm not saying you should play slowly, but that you should simply make the best decisions. One thing I can say though is that playing slowly has improved my decision making for when I do speed up again.
On August 27 2012 08:52 Acritter wrote: I'd be interested in seeing how you defend the TvP 1-1-1 with 40 APM. The early harass in particular seems like it would be very difficult to hold with such low APM.
the 1-1-1 is gonna be interesting simply because of how many variations there are and how you react differently to each one. I'm trying to figure something out for this.
On August 27 2012 06:13 MrLlama wrote: Added another episode. This one tackles the ever so scary 1 base blink stalker all in.
a couple of notes i'd like to make 1. you don't always have to sacrifice your natural, some maps you can hold it a lot easier. On cloud though there is just too much room in my opinion and it can be very difficult to hold your natural. I also sack the natural because it takes less APM to hold 1 base than going back and forth for 2, but you can still come out ahead either way. 2. I know my apm hit like 65 for this game. I think this is probably one of the more micro intensive pushes to hold (since your defenses are thin and his push is so strong) so it may require a little bit more focus
Do you always go for 2 tech labs if you see a double gas, or is it map dependent? I've been going 2 reactors all the time, which might contribute to why I lose to this every time.
On August 27 2012 06:13 MrLlama wrote: Added another episode. This one tackles the ever so scary 1 base blink stalker all in.
a couple of notes i'd like to make 1. you don't always have to sacrifice your natural, some maps you can hold it a lot easier. On cloud though there is just too much room in my opinion and it can be very difficult to hold your natural. I also sack the natural because it takes less APM to hold 1 base than going back and forth for 2, but you can still come out ahead either way. 2. I know my apm hit like 65 for this game. I think this is probably one of the more micro intensive pushes to hold (since your defenses are thin and his push is so strong) so it may require a little bit more focus
Do you always go for 2 tech labs if you see a double gas, or is it map dependent? I've been going 2 reactors all the time, which might contribute to why I lose to this every time.
When I scout double gas I like to go for the double tech lab (and you can get a reactor on the other barracks if you'd like). Then when I use my scan to scout I usually base what I'm building from that. so if I somehow scout any air or a stargate (usually proxied) then I'll of course keep it at marines and throw up a couple turrets, but if I scout the robo and some stalkers (or the twilight of course) then I'll pump the marauders out and back into my 1 base (especially on ck).
I think it's also a bit map dependent though because for cloud kingdom in my experience it's like 80% blink stalker all in if I see double gas and no expo. So I just kinda prepare for it that way.
Lastly, the double tech lab allows for the necessary upgrades. Stim takes forever (as you know) so I can start that early, then when I do my scan if I see air play I can start combat shields immediately, or if I see the robo/twilight/blink indication I can start concussive shells (which is very useful in holding the blink stalker all in). with 2 reactors you can't do that and I think that hurts because it's a very tough defense.
Edit: and kind of in response to the post below, yes you want to check for an expansion of theirs. This is why I scan first then back up into my main base if I don't see an expansion, because why waste the time backing up into your main base if they've already expanded?!
I think backing up to the main base when you scout 2 gas is allways a good choice, because of this you don´t need an ebay to defend aggainst dts. You even don´t have to use your energy for mules, because your mineral line is already oversaturated. BUT make sure you do a recheck at the natrual arround 5:30 to see whether he has expanded or not because he could also go for a sentry expand build into 3 gate pressure. So just keep your army together in your main and tech to medivacs as fast as possible and it´s your win.
I've uploaded episode 20: Defending a 4 gate in ZvP
There are a couple of things to note: 1. The reason his 4gate hits later is because of the units I pick off that he initially moves out with. This doesn't give him a large enough army to move in so instead he waits to build up his zealot count and push in a little later. 2. He goes pure zealot because he knows I use lings and is trying to metagame me a bit 3. my apm is a little high (60), mostly because I think I was APM spamming a bit unconsciously. This is definitely a push that can be held with under 40 apm though.
I'll probably do a hatch first with scout build later since that can be even easier and really put you ahead without having to micro. Plus if they pull drones you can react.
Hey, this is a great initiative for helping players who struggle with cheese and feel like they are held back by their fingers. I'll definitely recommend this series to low level players asking for help.
I have a minor complaint about the 15 hatch vs 10pool one though - that was a pretty weak 10pool build. The guy expanded but made no attempt to transition, so the hatch would never have any value. it was basically a 10pool with 300 minerals wasted. It would have been much different if he had either pulled eight of his drones, or mined gas for a speedling follow up or maybe slowling/baneling, or droned after 6 lings (this is the situation where you would expand). those would be more normal 10pool variations.
EPT
