On August 29 2012 06:51 Oboeman wrote: Hey, this is a great initiative for helping players who struggle with cheese and feel like they are held back by their fingers. I'll definitely recommend this series to low level players asking for help.
I have a minor complaint about the 15 hatch vs 10pool one though - that was a pretty weak 10pool build. The guy expanded but made no attempt to transition, so the hatch would never have any value. it was basically a 10pool with 300 minerals wasted. It would have been much different if he had either pulled eight of his drones, or mined gas for a speedling follow up or maybe slowling/baneling, or droned after 6 lings (this is the situation where you would expand). those would be more normal 10pool variations.
Thank you.
And I think the transition was simply him trying to find a good place to stop once I held off the initial 10 pool. He didn't get the hatch, he was down on drones, he was down on lings, and I had a spine crawler going up. From there sure he can transition into ling/bling or even mass speedling but I feel at that point it's no longer defending a 10 pool and more defending a mass speedling all in except you have the advantage since you have the drone lead.
That being said, I'm willing to make another 10 pool hold with a different transition beyond him hatching if you want.
As for the drone pull, I'm pretty sure that is just a straight up B/O loss that you can't avoid. I've never seen anybody hold 10pool vs hatch when the opponent brings 8-10 drones along (and thus can build spines as well). 6-8 lings + 8-10 drones > 16 drones everytime so he can just drop a spine and A-move at your army and you're pretty much done for. If ANYBODY can dispute this or knows of a way to hold a masters player who brings the drones along too, please let me know.
I changed my mind, but I'll leave my initial comments below. This is really good advice for people in bronze/silver who are finding themselves losing to cheesy, ridiculous, and/or unorthodox builds (basically everything found in bronze/silver).
My suggestions below are better suited for those in gold/plat who are trying to make the push to diamond+
A huge key to getting better and improving is FORCING YOURSELF to play faster. Eventually you'll get used doing simple actions faster, and your play will greatly improve after some time (of course you will likely play worse at first). Trying to make due with low APM is ill-advised imo.
On August 07 2012 08:26 Sir Z wrote: As a gold player with fairly low APM, and who's not really interested in spending the time doing APM drills, I'm totally interested in this.
If you really want to get better at the game, I would not suggest APM drills to make you play quicker. Just try doing everything fast as you possibly can. You will lose a bunch early on because you're not used to trying to play so quickly. After some time you'll adapt, and then you can start working in some good builds to accompany your higher APM.
On August 29 2012 06:51 Oboeman wrote: Hey, this is a great initiative for helping players who struggle with cheese and feel like they are held back by their fingers. I'll definitely recommend this series to low level players asking for help.
I have a minor complaint about the 15 hatch vs 10pool one though - that was a pretty weak 10pool build. The guy expanded but made no attempt to transition, so the hatch would never have any value. it was basically a 10pool with 300 minerals wasted. It would have been much different if he had either pulled eight of his drones, or mined gas for a speedling follow up or maybe slowling/baneling, or droned after 6 lings (this is the situation where you would expand). those would be more normal 10pool variations.
Thank you.
And I think the transition was simply him trying to find a good place to stop once I held off the initial 10 pool. He didn't get the hatch, he was down on drones, he was down on lings, and I had a spine crawler going up. From there sure he can transition into ling/bling or even mass speedling but I feel at that point it's no longer defending a 10 pool and more defending a mass speedling all in except you have the advantage since you have the drone lead.
That being said, I'm willing to make another 10 pool hold with a different transition beyond him hatching if you want.
As for the drone pull, I'm pretty sure that is just a straight up B/O loss that you can't avoid. I've never seen anybody hold 10pool vs hatch when the opponent brings 8-10 drones along (and thus can build spines as well). 6-8 lings + 8-10 drones > 16 drones everytime so he can just drop a spine and A-move at your army and you're pretty much done for. If ANYBODY can dispute this or knows of a way to hold a masters player who brings the drones along too, please let me know.
Your vid showed a good hold of 15 hatch vs a 10pool that makes only 6 lings and tries to macro out of it (except the guy didn't macro out of it) but a 10pool speedling video would be more useful I think. As for the drone pull, it being difficult is the main reason you should do it :p. I think I have seen someone hold it blind only a few times, but I'm not sure if it was an execution error from the aggressor. It involved a lot of drone-stacking to buy time and moving back and forth between the main and natural. You could do a video of holding it with a 9 scout or a 10 scout, though.
Another valuable ZvZ one would be defending a one base baneling all-in when you did a 15 hatch or a pool-hatch build. It's not too difficult to stop if you know, but it's the kind of that you will outright die to over and over again if you don't know how to handle it.
On August 29 2012 08:23 Mr Showtime wrote: I changed my mind, but I'll leave my initial comments below. This is really good advice for people in bronze/silver who are finding themselves losing to cheesy, ridiculous, and/or unorthodox builds (basically everything found in bronze/silver).
My suggestions below are better suited for those in gold/plat who are trying to make the push to diamond+
A huge key to getting better and improving is FORCING YOURSELF to play faster. Eventually you'll get used doing simple actions faster, and your play will greatly improve after some time (of course you will likely play worse at first). Trying to make due with low APM is ill-advised imo.
On August 07 2012 08:26 Sir Z wrote: As a gold player with fairly low APM, and who's not really interested in spending the time doing APM drills, I'm totally interested in this.
If you really want to get better at the game, I would not suggest APM drills to make you play quicker. Just try doing everything fast as you possibly can. You will lose a bunch early on because you're not used to trying to play so quickly. After some time you'll adapt, and then you can start working in some good builds to accompany your higher APM.
I think we just have different methodologies. I personally think that it's better to have good decision making than quick hands. The quick hands will come with play, but if you are just trying to do everything as fast as you can, you'll never develop a good rhythm and you'll never know why you're winning or losing (besides you just happened to do stuff right one time, and not the other). I think it's a LOT easier for replay analysis when you do everything based on decisions because you understand the game much better and can go back and say, "I lost because I did not make this decision" instead of being unsure since you don't understand the game enough to know what decision was most important.
That's just how I feel though, I know some people are big advocates of the fast hands so to each their own.
On August 29 2012 06:51 Oboeman wrote: Hey, this is a great initiative for helping players who struggle with cheese and feel like they are held back by their fingers. I'll definitely recommend this series to low level players asking for help.
I have a minor complaint about the 15 hatch vs 10pool one though - that was a pretty weak 10pool build. The guy expanded but made no attempt to transition, so the hatch would never have any value. it was basically a 10pool with 300 minerals wasted. It would have been much different if he had either pulled eight of his drones, or mined gas for a speedling follow up or maybe slowling/baneling, or droned after 6 lings (this is the situation where you would expand). those would be more normal 10pool variations.
Thank you.
And I think the transition was simply him trying to find a good place to stop once I held off the initial 10 pool. He didn't get the hatch, he was down on drones, he was down on lings, and I had a spine crawler going up. From there sure he can transition into ling/bling or even mass speedling but I feel at that point it's no longer defending a 10 pool and more defending a mass speedling all in except you have the advantage since you have the drone lead.
That being said, I'm willing to make another 10 pool hold with a different transition beyond him hatching if you want.
As for the drone pull, I'm pretty sure that is just a straight up B/O loss that you can't avoid. I've never seen anybody hold 10pool vs hatch when the opponent brings 8-10 drones along (and thus can build spines as well). 6-8 lings + 8-10 drones > 16 drones everytime so he can just drop a spine and A-move at your army and you're pretty much done for. If ANYBODY can dispute this or knows of a way to hold a masters player who brings the drones along too, please let me know.
Your vid showed a good hold of 15 hatch vs a 10pool that makes only 6 lings and tries to macro out of it (except the guy didn't macro out of it) but a 10pool speedling video would be more useful I think. As for the drone pull, it being difficult is the main reason you should do it :p. I think I have seen someone hold it blind only a few times, but I'm not sure if it was an execution error from the aggressor. It involved a lot of drone-stacking to buy time and moving back and forth between the main and natural. You could do a video of holding it with a 9 scout or a 10 scout, though.
Another valuable ZvZ one would be defending a one base baneling all-in when you did a 15 hatch or a pool-hatch build. It's not too difficult to stop if you know, but it's the kind of that you will outright die to over and over again if you don't know how to handle it.
1. he actually continuously pumped lings out, then took his hatch when he had a spare 300 minerals (instead of grabbing a gas or something. 2. I see this 10 pool on ladder in masters league still many times, where they grab the hatch right after. Their plan is simply to deny your hatch and then get up one of their own. 3. a 10 pool speedling video is just another transition out but I suppose that'd be something good to hold. Any specific build order you want? 4. I think the only times the no scout vs 10 pool with drone pull has ever worked is when the guy attacking makes a micro mistake somewhere. With flawless play I'm pretty sure it is an automatic win from everything that I've seen. that being said, I suppose I'd be willing to try it (but idk if 40 apm would cut it considering I don't even know if 300 apm is enough lol) 5. I'll have a drone scout vid up soon. 6. yeah the 14/14 ling/bling all in is on the list vs a hatch first build.
I have a new episode up. Something I'd like to note is that while it would probably be easier to hold this 2 rax all in with 3 gates and no expansion, were they to just do a 2 rax light pressure into expand then you would be getting your expansion later than him. So I just want to show that it IS possible to hold with the 2 gates (though a tad more difficult) just incase you prefer to do it like this.
I'm really enjoying the video series so far. Its nice to have actual descriptions for how to hold the various cheeses and early attacks, instead of a vague "just keep macroing and you'll win" thing.
I also like the title, just a shame people are taking it too literally
On August 30 2012 04:26 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I'm really enjoying the video series so far. Its nice to have actual descriptions for how to hold the various cheeses and early attacks, instead of a vague "just keep macroing and you'll win" thing.
I also like the title, just a shame people are taking it too literally
thanks mate. Yeah I'm gonna end up changing the title to Winning in 40 DPM or less since the APM thing gets a few people really aggrivated when I'm not under.
On August 30 2012 06:41 ishyishy wrote: I think everyone should just play the game the way they enjoy it the most, and not worry so much about winning
For some reason everyone always thinks that they played poorly and that they are bad players if they lose, and that is unfortunate.
In the end, it is just a game and you should have fun. I always say if you can't glhf and gg every game, then you need to take a step back and think about how it's just a game that is meant for fun. Sometimes people will cheese, sometimes you will lose, but in the end just have fun learning and then winning will come to you.
On August 30 2012 07:48 BoZiffer wrote: Well done, sir. Looking forward to more videos. These are great.
Thank you sir.
On August 30 2012 08:43 EnE wrote: Sorry, but this is kind of dumb.
Just, play faster. Why bother trying to do things with 40 apm, just get faster.
I guess it's not for everyone. that being said, I'm not advocating anybody play slower. I'm just saying I'll play slower so it's easier for you to follow along.
On August 30 2012 08:56 Gianttt wrote: Watched one of your video's today for the first time. You're doing a great job for the community, keep up the good work.
I think ppl underestimate the value of this thread. The information youre providing us with is absolutely invaluable. I must say that this is probably the best thread on TL atm and thank you for putting so much into this!
By following these videos, ppl new to this game will be able to quicker get an understanding of the game and reach their limit at a steady pace – instead of playing 100s of hours in bronze (like I did) with minimal to none improvement between games. With these vids a strategically smart player will be able to apply his strategies to the game, without playing at 100 apm.
Could you do an example of a standard game, where you pause and point out WHEN you scout, WHAT youre looking for and HOW to react to it? (just show case one game, but maybe mention common reactions to other builds) maybe even for each matchup? (big project I know:/) thoughts? Keep up the good work!
However i think the most people don´t care about the topic "playing with less than 40 apm", but more about how can i hold matchup specific allins/cheese since that´s what most players have problems with in the lower leagues. Even i can get a lot of value out of your videos and i´m a master player with 130-140 APM. I can hold most allins but there were allways 1-2 tricks i could get from your videos, so really thanks for your hard work!
On August 30 2012 22:01 SweKenZo wrote: I think ppl underestimate the value of this thread. The information youre providing us with is absolutely invaluable. I must say that this is probably the best thread on TL atm and thank you for putting so much into this!
By following these videos, ppl new to this game will be able to quicker get an understanding of the game and reach their limit at a steady pace – instead of playing 100s of hours in bronze (like I did) with minimal to none improvement between games. With these vids a strategically smart player will be able to apply his strategies to the game, without playing at 100 apm.
Could you do an example of a standard game, where you pause and point out WHEN you scout, WHAT youre looking for and HOW to react to it? (just show case one game, but maybe mention common reactions to other builds) maybe even for each matchup? (big project I know:/) thoughts? Keep up the good work!
Thank you very much!!
I'll try to add some basic builds for each match up a little later, that's a good idea.
On August 31 2012 01:32 Sianos wrote: Keep up the good work!
However i think the most people don´t care about the topic "playing with less than 40 apm", but more about how can i hold matchup specific allins/cheese since that´s what most players have problems with in the lower leagues. Even i can get a lot of value out of your videos and i´m a master player with 130-140 APM. I can hold most allins but there were allways 1-2 tricks i could get from your videos, so really thanks for your hard work!
I'm glad it's proving helpful at all levels. I'm thinking of just changing the name to "Winning With Ease" but haven't quite decided if that's what I want the name to be.
Episode 23 is up by the way. I show how to defend against a 10 pool (with ling speed) but this time I showcase the best defense if you decide to send out a scout drone.
On September 01 2012 00:11 TheDougler wrote: Wow this is fantastic! I think this is something that could really help me as I just feel lost sometimes in PvT even without APM being a factor.
Thanks a lot man. Yeah I think people with high or low APM can hopefully benefit from this series.
New episode is up btw, defending the 1 base Immortal Sentry All In (TvP)
On a similar note, I have recorded defending a 2 base Immortal Sentry all in ZvP and will be uploading it tonight.
I have another suggestion if you're still taking requests:
Matchup: PvT My build: Parting's double expo 8 gate His build: CC First or 1 rax expo Comments: It would be awesome to see your decision making while executing the parting build up to the point of the 8 gate attack. The idea is that you open with a standard 1 gate FE, and transition into the Parting build upon scouting a greedy build. This is supposed to be one of the more difficult builds to execute.
LOL. The immortal allin is the one allin i never stopped once in a TvP and it´s awesome to see that 7! bunkers are needed to hold. But your theory is totally right, as long as you are ahead you can spamm those bunkers like you want and if you repell a push you can just salvage them and build your 3rd + additional barracks. I guess i´ll keep that in mind.
Edit: As for your naming issue i would suggest something like "Holding allins is easy", "How to hold allins" or even "How to get out of bronze/silver/gold whatever. " ^^
EPT
