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On August 07 2012 05:39 ishyishy wrote:
I might be a minority, but I have never enjoyed or have been interested in discussing APM. I feel like almost everyone talks about APM way too much. A lot of people over-value it, to the point of trying to insult other players because they have low APM in whatever league (like for example I have under 60 effective APM, but I was in masters for 3 seasons, and all i got was "how did you get to masters, you are terrible, you need 150 apm minimum for this and that, oh yu play protoss no wonder...").
When I see a caster or an observer show the APM tab in a tournament match, and they go into how much ap each player has, it actually annoys me. I would rather hear almost anything else in the beginning of a match when nothing is going on; like who the players are, who their team is, what tournaments they won in the past, etc.
I feel like you can just say "you can slow down your APM if you use it more effectively instead of mindless spam" and be done with it. What else is there to say on effective APM? You cant really teach people how to use APM by telling them on a forum or a video, the player needs to make the decision to do it. It seems like somethng you learn by doing, rather than theory crafting about it, which is another reason I dont feel like there is much to discuss about it.
Im no pro, but I dont see how APM relates to strategy at all. Obviously you cant be "too slow" because a certain skill level of mechanics is needed to play amoung the best, but in general it doesnt explain what the player is doing or is going to do during the game. I never hear "oh well if you do this build, you want around 200 apm. If you go for this build, you want 120."
This is just my opinion on the subject of your show or blog or whatever. If you can make a show with this subject interesting or entertaining, then I will be impressed lol. Good luck.
I totally agree with this. However there are sometimes that seeing the apm is quite impressive. It was Taeja in one of the IPTL games were he was microing 3 different armies in different parts of the map and they showed his apm. I was impressed that he could micro that well. But as for apm per league i think thats really stupid.
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this thread is treating the syptoms of a sickness without treating the sickness itself.
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On September 02 2012 12:46 fawkz wrote:
this thread is treating the syptoms of a sickness without treating the sickness itself.
Jesus Christ. No, it's doing completely the opposite.
It doesn't matter how many times you can meaninglessly box your mineral line, alternate between different location keybinds, and click on a unit. What matters is winning. Meaningless actions do not help you win, which is why we have two different metrics (EAPM and APM.) I can spam 300+ APM and suck horribly, because most of them will be redundant or otherwise ineffectual. The point of this is to increase your ratio of EAPM/APM so when you do start playing very quickly, your actions actually count.
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Quick note: I'm currently away for a wedding over Labor Day so I won't be able to post up another video until Tuesday (hence why I rushed out a bunch Friday). Until then I'll simply be limited to discussion and listening to any ideas that you have for future videos/things you need help with.
On September 02 2012 11:10 habermas wrote:
Cool series. If you're out of ideas I'd like to see how do you defend the following:
- proxy 2 gate (10, 11) as protoss with 13 gate scout and as zerg with 15 pool
- 4 gate warp prism as terran doing 1 rax FE, the robo maybe proxied so you have 7 zealots and a stalker in yourac main at 6:30
thank you. Definitely not out of ideas but those are good ones to add to the list. I'll definitely be doing 2gate for every race.
On September 02 2012 11:14 Walitgon wrote:
If you get infestors out in time for the sentry immortal all-in, they executed it wrong.
I am going to be redoing this one where he doesn't wait for more warp ins of zealots to deal with my lings and instead hits with the push at the proper time. It's still useful because I'll probably go about the same idea, but the actual hold will be different so yes you are correct.
On September 02 2012 12:22 ODKStevez wrote:
This is really useful, thank you showed this to a few friends that are having trouble with them nasty 6-8 gates xD
Thank you, I'm glad you found it useful and hopefully your friends can learn from it as well!
On September 02 2012 13:12 Hollow27 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 12:46 fawkz wrote:
this thread is treating the syptoms of a sickness without treating the sickness itself. Jesus Christ. No, it's doing completely the opposite. It doesn't matter how many times you can meaninglessly box your mineral line, alternate between different location keybinds, and click on a unit. What matters is winning. Meaningless actions do not help you win, which is why we have two different metrics (EAPM and APM.) I can spam 300+ APM and suck horribly, because most of them will be redundant or otherwise ineffectual. The point of this is to increase your ratio of EAPM/APM so when you do start playing very quickly, your actions actually count.
Thank you for recognizing what I'm trying to do. This is definitely correct because I'm not trying to slow down your apm and make you bad or say you need X apm to hold something or anything like that really, I'm just trying to show you how important decision making is and how to efficiently use your APM so that you can make better decision and more decisions.
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On episode 6 (defending sase style 3gate after expo) the protoss player that did it made quite a few mistakes. It hit about 30 seconds late and should have had another sentry in there, and he should have popped a gaurdian shield. The guardian shield makes all the difference and that 30 seconds would have too. I think you would have lost if the other guy performed the sase build better.
I think the best thing to do to defend against this is to scout around the outside your base with an scv to see if he has a couple units or a pylon. Also in that video you see his zealot run to the side after getting hit by the bunker. This isn't huge but the fact that he didnt run back to the xelnaga or something indicates that in his mind he has a reason to be close (his proxy pylon and a group of units gathering).
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I love this thread and guide.. I've played over 7500 games and this is how my APM goes in game:
early game - 20-30
mid game - 90-100
late game - 150-250
My average APM ends up being around 100 every game, but I don't spam useless keystrokes either. My feelings on APM are that it is required when needed, but it isn't something you need to spam all game.
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this thread is treating the symptoms of a sickness without treating the sickness itself.
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This guide makes me more inclined to try out greedier builds like Hatch first, 1gate FE and 1rax FE, now that I know I can hold early attacks without stupidly high APM.
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On September 02 2012 05:59 MrLlama wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 18:08 bigtabs wrote:On September 01 2012 14:29 SeAK wrote:
any terrans in masters with under 50 apm? It's amazing how many people completely miss the point of what the OP is doing, even though he's explained it over and again and is a very simple concept. Hopefully the thread rename will help remove the pointless discussions. Haha yeah that's why I simply changed the name. People focused too much on the APM instead of the decision making so I figured Winning With Ease was more suitable and could help get people more on track. Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 18:04 Sianos wrote:Hi MrLlama, i have a request for video. Matchup: TvT My build: 1 rax fe into 3 rax into reactor medivacs His build: Cloak Banshee opening into marine,siegetank,banshee scv allin Maps: Like Shakuras Plateau where Banshee play is strong Comment: The problem with this allin is that the cloak banshees give him total mapcontrol, which makes it almost impossible to see his push comming and catch it right in the middle of the map. Another problem is that his banshees can bind some of your marines in your minerallines even if you make 1 turret at each base, which reduce the force you can throw at him when you finally see his marines, siegetanks and scvs comming. I never hold it once. Replay: TvT_ShakurasThis is just a sample, since i don´t play very much i have very few replays of this allin, but it gives you a rough idea. The version where he pushes out a bit later with more stuff and all his scvs is a lot harder to defend then the version the player used aggainst me in this replay. He even ddin´t got the cloak upgrade, i think because i scanned his banshee build. Okay so you want me to have him push out a little later with more stuff. Any specific number of banshees/tanks/marines you want him to push with or just kinda ballpark it?
Don´t know. Perhaps with like 2 or 3 tanks and 2-3 banshees and some marines and a lot of scvs. The number´s doesn´t matter that much it´s just the clumping attack with marines and scvs which gives me problems.
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On September 02 2012 15:09 Carmine wrote:
On episode 6 (defending sase style 3gate after expo) the protoss player that did it made quite a few mistakes. It hit about 30 seconds late and should have had another sentry in there, and he should have popped a gaurdian shield. The guardian shield makes all the difference and that 30 seconds would have too. I think you would have lost if the other guy performed the sase build better.
I think the best thing to do to defend against this is to scout around the outside your base with an scv to see if he has a couple units or a pylon. Also in that video you see his zealot run to the side after getting hit by the bunker. This isn't huge but the fact that he didnt run back to the xelnaga or something indicates that in his mind he has a reason to be close (his proxy pylon and a group of units gathering).
1. It probably did hit a little bit late, that being said I'm only playing vs mid-high masters so they aren't going to be GM pushes that are optimized like the pros everytime.
2. I still think I wouldn't held, even with guardian shield. This is for two reasons. The first reason is because I still had another bunker that was up behind my first one that he never even touched. With G shield he could've made contact with this bunker but I still would've held. The 2nd reason is because you can focus fire with a bunker by selecting it and pressing Attack then a unit. Had he popped G shield, I would've very very quickly have focus fired down the sentry and that would've been no problem in a couple of seconds. I also could've pulled more scvs had I needed them (assuming he hit a little earlier).
And yes it's very good to get a scout outside your base to see the pylon, but I could say that for 1/2 of these guides. I'm trying to show what to do in the event that you don't get the scout out there (they kill it or they hide their proxy pylon or whatever). Otherwise I could say, "Okay so you found the proxy pylon, killed it, and now he's not doing the attack anymore so....that's how you defend it). Maybe I'll talk about that more in the videos though that they can easily nullify the attack with a scout, but they won't always find it and need to be prepared if they can't.
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I can't believe this is the first time I've seen this thread! Thank you. I play random so this is especially helpful.
I think the biggest thing is just seeing how to handle stuff one or two times. It may take 100 times if I experiment myself, but if I know what I"m supposed to be going for and what my real goals are it makes it doable.
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I suggest you make a guide for how to defend against DT rush when you do a no gas fast expand.
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thanks for these man ! :D keep making these vids yo, very much appreciated
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APM grows with you skill lvl. Also its not nessacarly mindless spam even though you spam. The more you play and the more games you grind. The spam goes away and it fills in with actual actions! That how i was taught to play broodwar. Playing sc2 now as a masters zerg i play approx. 280APM and 240 EAPM. as when sc2 first came out i play at like 150APM but it was only like 50 EAPM. Keep your hands warm is important and that what spam does so when you need to do something FAST you hands have been moving and it shouldnt be a problem. The more you play the higher APM. if you want to be fast get APM alert that is in SC2 Gears. set it to a little high then you play and force your self to play higher for a few or 2 you will find it spam at first but not so much after the 2 weeks.
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On September 02 2012 23:50 thurst0n wrote:
I can't believe this is the first time I've seen this thread! Thank you. I play random so this is especially helpful.
I think the biggest thing is just seeing how to handle stuff one or two times. It may take 100 times if I experiment myself, but if I know what I"m supposed to be going for and what my real goals are it makes it doable.
Glad it is helpful for you! Seeing it is definitely better in my mind whenever I learn (and a majority of people are visual learners).
On September 03 2012 02:58 superbarnie wrote:
I suggest you make a guide for how to defend against DT rush when you do a no gas fast expand.
Okay sure thing. I'm going to assume he is proxying it somewhere I don't scout, but is there anything else you would like specifically? Like a specific time to get my engineering bay down or something? Because a lot of it simply is looking at your opponents, army, lack of a natural, and double gas and then knowing to watch out and save scans/get a turret up to be prepared.
On September 03 2012 03:48 Calypso123 wrote:
APM grows with you skill lvl. Also its not nessacarly mindless spam even though you spam. The more you play and the more games you grind. The spam goes away and it fills in with actual actions! That how i was taught to play broodwar. Playing sc2 now as a masters zerg i play approx. 280APM and 240 EAPM. as when sc2 first came out i play at like 150APM but it was only like 50 EAPM. Keep your hands warm is important and that what spam does so when you need to do something FAST you hands have been moving and it shouldnt be a problem. The more you play the higher APM. if you want to be fast get APM alert that is in SC2 Gears. set it to a little high then you play and force your self to play higher for a few or 2 you will find it spam at first but not so much after the 2 weeks.
I'm not going to say whether my method is better or worse, I simply think they both are different theories that float around. Of course when you get higher up you will be using the spam to stay warm and such, I think we can all agree on that. In terms of spamming to get better though, I think understanding the game through proper decision making takes precedence and then as you understand it, you will increase your apm because you'll make the right action the first time and then have time to do something else as well. Just different opinions though, I don't think either is wrong.
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On September 02 2012 13:12 Hollow27 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 12:46 fawkz wrote:
this thread is treating the syptoms of a sickness without treating the sickness itself. Jesus Christ. No, it's doing completely the opposite. It doesn't matter how many times you can meaninglessly box your mineral line, alternate between different location keybinds, and click on a unit. What matters is winning. Meaningless actions do not help you win, which is why we have two different metrics (EAPM and APM.) I can spam 300+ APM and suck horribly, because most of them will be redundant or otherwise ineffectual. The point of this is to increase your ratio of EAPM/APM so when you do start playing very quickly, your actions actually count.
EPM is actually more useless than APM, because it doesn't measure at all your macro cycles, which mind you, are really important.
Anyways good job OP, i have way more than 40 apm, but what i lack is decission making 
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On September 03 2012 03:48 Calypso123 wrote:
APM grows with you skill lvl. Also its not nessacarly mindless spam even though you spam. The more you play and the more games you grind. The spam goes away and it fills in with actual actions! That how i was taught to play broodwar. Playing sc2 now as a masters zerg i play approx. 280APM and 240 EAPM. as when sc2 first came out i play at like 150APM but it was only like 50 EAPM. Keep your hands warm is important and that what spam does so when you need to do something FAST you hands have been moving and it shouldnt be a problem. The more you play the higher APM. if you want to be fast get APM alert that is in SC2 Gears. set it to a little high then you play and force your self to play higher for a few or 2 you will find it spam at first but not so much after the 2 weeks.
Sure. But being able to theoretically move fast is no good if I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm more likely to freeze up completely.
The video series just lays out the bare minimum actions needed to hold off an attack.
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On September 03 2012 06:38 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 03:48 Calypso123 wrote:
APM grows with you skill lvl. Also its not nessacarly mindless spam even though you spam. The more you play and the more games you grind. The spam goes away and it fills in with actual actions! That how i was taught to play broodwar. Playing sc2 now as a masters zerg i play approx. 280APM and 240 EAPM. as when sc2 first came out i play at like 150APM but it was only like 50 EAPM. Keep your hands warm is important and that what spam does so when you need to do something FAST you hands have been moving and it shouldnt be a problem. The more you play the higher APM. if you want to be fast get APM alert that is in SC2 Gears. set it to a little high then you play and force your self to play higher for a few or 2 you will find it spam at first but not so much after the 2 weeks.
Sure. But being able to theoretically move fast is no good if I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm more likely to freeze up completely. The video series just lays out the bare minimum actions needed to hold off an attack.
That's kind of my thinking. I can be moving at 300 apm in the wrong direction if I don't know what I'm doing. Or for every right action I could make 2 incorrect ones that screw me up. I feel it's just better to understand the game more when you play, plus it's more fun when you watch because you can understand strategies better and how the timing attacks work and such.
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Thank you so much for this series. My decision making is not the best, and this has helped me win games that I know for sure I would have otherwise lost. Keep it up jabroni.
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I'd love if you could do a guide on stopping a 2gate zealot rush in PvP while still doing a somewhat normal build. Like say the 3 stalker rush.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Stalker_Rush_(vs._Protoss)
I had a game where I scouted the Protoss, didn't see a core, panicked and built a 2nd gateway instead of the build I was going for. Turns out he was just bad and dropped his core at 18, but then I lost to a 4gate as my own core and gas was way late. If I knew I could stop it while playing standard(ish) or doing a smaller alteration it wouldn't be nearly as bad.
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EPT
