Introduction: From a 12 drone rush to a 7 gate blink stalker all in, there is always a way to scout, prepare, and engage to swing the game into your favor. In my series, Winning With Ease, I showcase the best decisions to be made in these situations while facing mid-high masters players all the while using minimal APM. The series is for all 3 Starcraft races and adds a new video every day so either check in here every day for the new episode (added to the OP) or check out my youtube channel.
So far I have run through a variety of series to test the waters and gain an understanding of what SC help is still lacking out there. I wanted to be able to bring something new to the table that would really be able to benefit a large group of people. Eventually a silver league friend of mine actually came up with an idea about making videos showing how to stop certain pushes and cheeses that always kill him. I decided to take it and run and now I have my series Winning With Ease [Formerly Winning in 40 APM or Less]. Hopefully with these videos you will gain a much better understanding of Starcraft 2 and the difference between you and the next level in terms of decision making.
Note: These videos are aimed at Masters and below players. I'm not claiming to be a GM who can hold anything and I'm sure pros with amazing micro and mechanics could still outplay me even if I use some of my own advice for how to hold.
Where Do You Come In? You get to throw out suggestions for videos based on stuff you are struggling with. Whether it be something like 6 pool or immortal sentry all-in, I'm here to help. I will re-enact your scenario as best as I can so that I can show you all of the important decisions to make to hold off his push.
Name: Race: Match up: Your Build: His Build: Specific Map?: Replay: (helpful if you can provide one but not always necessary) Comments:
EXAMPLE: Name: JackBlack Race: Terran Match up: Tvt Your Build: 1-1-1 into Cloak Banshee His Build: 2 rax marine-scv all-in Specific Map?: None Replay: drop.sc/xxxxx Comments: I don't like to wall-in in the TvT match up
Macro mechanics, creep spread, injects and basic army movement is enough to put you at ~150eapm+ if you are going mid/lategame zerg, how are you going to handle that?
And also considering that 500 resources of zerglings (20 lings) moved twice will count as 40 actions, but 500 resources of roaches (5 roaches) moved twice will count as only 10 actions, how are you going to account for that? APM is a horrible measure of hand/brain speed.
On August 07 2012 05:21 Cyro wrote: Macro mechanics, creep spread, injects and basic army movement is enough to put you at ~150eapm+ if you are going mid/lategame zerg, how are you going to handle that?
And also considering that 500 resources of zerglings (20 lings) moved twice will count as 40 actions, but 500 resources of roaches (5 roaches) moved twice will count as only 10 actions, how are you going to account for that? APM is a horrible measure of hand/brain speed.
Actually moving 20 lings is only 1 action. OT: The best way is just have more apm instead of trying to be good with 40.
On August 07 2012 05:21 Cyro wrote: Macro mechanics, creep spread, injects and basic army movement is enough to put you at ~150eapm+ if you are going mid/lategame zerg, how are you going to handle that?
And also considering that 500 resources of zerglings (20 lings) moved twice will count as 40 actions, but 500 resources of roaches (5 roaches) moved twice will count as only 10 actions, how are you going to account for that? APM is a horrible measure of hand/brain speed.
If you are moving each of your lings individually, then something is seriously wrong... I definitely think it is theoretically possible to play at an NA GM level with ~50 APM, if no actions are wasted.
I might be a minority, but I have never enjoyed or have been interested in discussing APM. I feel like almost everyone talks about APM way too much. A lot of people over-value it, to the point of trying to insult other players because they have low APM in whatever league (like for example I have under 60 effective APM, but I was in masters for 3 seasons, and all i got was "how did you get to masters, you are terrible, you need 150 apm minimum for this and that, oh yu play protoss no wonder...").
When I see a caster or an observer show the APM tab in a tournament match, and they go into how much ap each player has, it actually annoys me. I would rather hear almost anything else in the beginning of a match when nothing is going on; like who the players are, who their team is, what tournaments they won in the past, etc.
I feel like you can just say "you can slow down your APM if you use it more effectively instead of mindless spam" and be done with it. What else is there to say on effective APM? You cant really teach people how to use APM by telling them on a forum or a video, the player needs to make the decision to do it. It seems like somethng you learn by doing, rather than theory crafting about it, which is another reason I dont feel like there is much to discuss about it.
Im no pro, but I dont see how APM relates to strategy at all. Obviously you cant be "too slow" because a certain skill level of mechanics is needed to play amoung the best, but in general it doesnt explain what the player is doing or is going to do during the game. I never hear "oh well if you do this build, you want around 200 apm. If you go for this build, you want 120."
This is just my opinion on the subject of your show or blog or whatever. If you can make a show with this subject interesting or entertaining, then I will be impressed lol. Good luck.
On August 07 2012 05:21 Cyro wrote: Macro mechanics, creep spread, injects and basic army movement is enough to put you at ~150eapm+ if you are going mid/lategame zerg, how are you going to handle that?
And also considering that 500 resources of zerglings (20 lings) moved twice will count as 40 actions, but 500 resources of roaches (5 roaches) moved twice will count as only 10 actions, how are you going to account for that? APM is a horrible measure of hand/brain speed.
If you are moving each of your lings individually, then something is seriously wrong... I definitely think it is theoretically possible to play at an NA GM level with ~50 APM, if no actions are wasted.
They're out there, it's definitely possible. Speed is important in starcraft but first and foremost it's a strategy game. Good decision making is the most important tool to learn.
Hm, thats odd. Seems you are right, but my APM with zerg is almost three times the APM i have with protoss, i thought that was because you have more units etc at a lower cost? I play both races pretty aggressively
Why not just improve and get... say 50 apm, or 60... A thread on being effective while acting in a completely ineffective way is redundant and teaches bad mechanics in my opinion.
Sure, you can win, but why? That's like me saying "I can walk a mile with 1 foot, look at me it's so hard" Can you explain what really makes you think this is a good idea?
On August 07 2012 05:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Why not just improve and get... say 50 apm, or 60... A thread on being effective while acting in a completely ineffective way is redundant and teaches bad mechanics in my opinion.
Sure, you can win, but why? That's like me saying "I can walk a mile with 1 foot, look at me it's so hard" Can you explain what really makes you think this is a good idea?
I agree with this.
40 APM is actually really reeally slow. I am an extremely slow player, and even I have over 50 most of the time.
When you play as zerg, generally you're also building more units, (perhaps that's the cause of all the extra APM for you); building 40 sets of zerglings obviously requires 40 actions, whereas building two tanks or colossi requires... well... two apm. :x.
In short, the best strategy with low apm would be a strategy that uses high-cost units, (protoss, or terran cheese with thors/banshees/trollerific stuffs :D). I don't think limiting yourself to 40 APM is necessary, just tell newbies what to do with their relatively low APM; i.e. don't focus as much on stutter-stepping, and focus on building units back at home. Good luck :D!
I think this series is a good idea for a few reasons.
First, there are a lot of people who are new at the game (yes, people still buy Starcraft 2). These people may not be used to playing an RTS game, and their mechanics will be slow. Sure, you can tell them to just "mass games' to increase their APM, but this can encourage mindless spamming and poor mechanics. If you teach them how to use their APM effectively and avoid making mistakes, they will improve their mechanics even with low APM. They will also gain valuable knowledge about how to deal with a variety of situations on the ladder. Then, as they mass games on their own, their APM can improve as well as their mechanics, and they can become better starcraft players faster.
Also, there are a lot of older people who play Starcraft 2. Generally, people who are older tend to have slower APM, and their APM tends to not increase much over time. This series can teach them to improve their game sense and their mechanics so that they can make the most out of their APM.
Overall, it is true that having 100+ APM can allow you to do much more, but APM is so much more than spamming. It is the mechanics and the game knowledge behind the APM that matters most. This series is meant to address that. That is why I approve of the series.
On August 07 2012 05:42 Cyro wrote: Hm, thats odd. Seems you are right, but my APM with zerg is almost three times the APM i have with protoss, i thought that was because you have more units etc at a lower cost? I play both races pretty aggressively
Yeah building units causes big APM spikes, and inject adds another ~20 APM on 3 injected bases.
I appreciate the feedback. It definitely shows that there was some necessary clarification which I have added to the bottom of the OP. Please read that and if you have any questions continue to post them and I will answer them.
I have also added a section called The Point for added clarification:
The Point: If I can hold something with 40APM, you can hold it with anything >= 40APM
I like the idea! Definitely a great way to showcase what's important at crisis moments. Also it's cool to see people use only the actions they need to - how awesome would it be to see a pro whose every action was meaningful, whose every gesture was necessary? Finesse is sexy - the guy who wins with a single stroke is much cooler than the guy who bludgeons with 50 - of course once you have the necessary speed to execute this. One I struggled with recently: ViKingPrime Terran TvP 1 rax expo, 2nd rax -> double gas -> factory -> tanks Proxy voids + warp gate all in Shakuras plateau.
I feel it's possible with toss. I'm low masters with ~120 apm atm and my build orders are not optimized as much as they could be, and I spam in the beginning. If you're efficient and everything goes down the second it needs to you can just overrun with sheer outmacroing because toss macro isn't especially difficult--probes, pylons, gas, make buildings, make units. I still don't know if 40 is possible because I still have more than that just kind of making probes, but ~60 is I guess, especially if you turtle and a-move a deathball.
As a gold player with fairly low APM, and who's not really interested in spending the time doing APM drills, I'm totally interested in this.
Name: SirZ Race: terran Match up: TvP Your Build: Boxer's 1 rax FE into MMM His Build: any build that prioritizes psi storm chargelot Specific Map?: none Comments: biggest problem is how to efficiently use ghosts.
I really don't understand why you would advocate for settling for less mechanical skill. 40APM is incredibly slow. By simply mineral stacking, my early game APM is 110APM.
Hmmm, this feels like it belongs in SC2 General instead of strategy. It's not really a guide yet but rather a planned video series. I'll move it there for now.
On August 07 2012 07:08 Pylons wrote: my friend, google was top 8 grandmasters with about 40 - 60 apm, so 40 apm is definitely enough to win in masters league!
Also, I'm fairly sure google aka oGsMC was a hacker.
For those asking why settle for low APM, you have to understand some people will be stuck at that speed because of physical limitations. It might be because of a disability or maybe just age (too young or old).
Plus, if say you are at 40 APM now, why not be good at 40 APM and improve your speed at the same time?
I know I'm stuck at about 80 APM, down from about 120 APM back in my BW days. So difinitely this helps because I am getting slower with time.
On August 07 2012 08:28 etherealfall wrote: I really don't understand why you would advocate for settling for less mechanical skill. 40APM is incredibly slow. By simply mineral stacking, my early game APM is 110APM.
Might I direct you to the part of my post labeled, "The Point" where I give you the main point.
If I can do it in 40apm, if you have anything over 40apm you too can do it.
On August 07 2012 08:31 NrGmonk wrote: Hmmm, this feels like it belongs in SC2 General instead of strategy. It's not really a guide yet but rather a planned video series. I'll move it there for now.
Also, I'm fairly sure google aka oGsMC was a hacker.
Okay. I figured it would go in strategy because it is going to turn into multiple videos that are basically "guides" for everything, but that won't be for a few more days so maybe I'll have someone change it back then.
my average apm in sc2 is around 40-50 but in fights its around 200+. at the start of the game is almost 0 as there really isnt much to do. ofcourse im only a noob high diamond player atm because i dont play often due to bad wrist and drop from masters after race switch.
On August 07 2012 08:42 aintz wrote: my average apm in sc2 is around 40-50 but in fights its around 200+. at the start of the game is almost 0 as there really isnt much to do. ofcourse im only a noob high diamond player atm because i dont play often due to bad wrist and drop from masters after race switch.
And while it's great to have 200apm in fights, there's actually a lot of players who can't get up to that 200apm in an engagement and thus spawned the series for people who don't quite move that fast...ever...or so if you have 160APM on top of the 40apm then it's just added bonus and you can hold things easily.
i wonder how so many people can call what OP does bad just because they think having 40 APM is too less anyway......well there are people with only 40 apm around so they can need the advice which things they should allways do with their apm and which things can be skiped if they are too slow.....
its good to have a look at those things not only if you have just 40 apm, for every player, even a guy with 150 apm could sometimes use 500 apm to do everything perfectly.....so having a look at which things are more important than other and which you should do first and which you can skip if your APM aren t enough for the actuall situation to handle, is very good, for every player, no matter if 40 or 200 apm
On August 07 2012 07:08 Pylons wrote: my friend, google was top 8 grandmasters with about 40 - 60 apm, so 40 apm is definitely enough to win in masters league!
Your friend, google, also used blink hacks and (probably) also maphacked. He mostly relied on two base all ins in PvZ and PvT. I don't know what he did in PvP. His style was easy to execute especially coupled with his hacks. His style may not be viable anymore.
On August 07 2012 22:19 uzushould wrote: i wonder how so many people can call what OP does bad just because they think having 40 APM is too less anyway......well there are people with only 40 apm around so they can need the advice which things they should allways do with their apm and which things can be skiped if they are too slow.....
its good to have a look at those things not only if you have just 40 apm, for every player, even a guy with 150 apm could sometimes use 500 apm to do everything perfectly.....so having a look at which things are more important than other and which you should do first and which you can skip if your APM aren t enough for the actuall situation to handle, is very good, for every player, no matter if 40 or 200 apm
Thank you for being someone who gets it. A lot of people really seem to think I'm promoting losing your apm when in actuality I'm just promoting being smart with it
I feel that this idea you are promoting is similar to what a lot of martial arts instructors teach - do it slower at first, a lot of times, to get the technique perfect. Once perfect, increase the speed and try to maintain the correct technique.
If you can perfect your decision making at 40APM, then you can move onto 60APM, 80APM, 100APM, etc.
In fact, getting everything perfect at 40APM can help force you to understand what you need more APM for - i.e. a midgame engagement while macro may likely need more than 40APM, and once you hit that wall you understand how to improve.
On August 08 2012 06:10 wcr.4fun wrote: might work as protoss. You can't play zerg good and have low apm. You need to spread creep, manage your injects.
Stephano is greatest USA bonjwa and he barely ever spreads creep (I troll I troll, but seriously, he barely spreads creep)... And realistically, injects are what, 20 APM if done efficiently?
People are missing Llamma's point, which is actually common sense and 100% correct. The best way to practice and improve in anything is to isolate the simple, basic aspects and practice them rigorously. Only once you've become proficient at these individual pieces do you combine them all.
A quick example is swimming and learning how to become a faster and stronger swimmer. It's very common to practice leg strokes and arm strokes separately, doing laps with only your arms for propulsion and similarly doing laps with only your legs kicking. Or take basketball for example, you learn how to shoot and you learn how to dribble separately and only after becoming proficient at both do you start to practice jump shots and lay ups.
Essentially what Llamma is saying is, focus on decision making and don't worry about your speed. Once you've gotten a decent feel for the game strategically you can move on to playing faster. 500 APM doesnt mean much if you don't know how to scout effectively or how to respond to certain unit comps/strategies. Obviously vice versa, all the game knowledge in the world is useless if you can't click accurately to save your life.
Essentially, I think his point is that you need to break your game down and isolate the basic pieces, strategy and mechanics. For the vast majority of us it's completely inefficient to try and improve both at the same time.
This is a great idea. How efficient can you make each click? is basically your question. I hope you discover some cool results man!
Theoretically if you discover how to hold something (for example) with 40 apm you can then work out how to get ahead at the same time with the other 100 apm perhaps?
Of course the availablity of the in game resources will limit this approach..
I think 40 APM is setting the bar too low. If someone is stuck at 40 APM they should play cards or chess instead of SC2. Anyone should be able to improve their APM from 40 to atleast 60-80 by just deciding to do so, and believe it or not 60-80 allows you to reach mid master in SC2.
Atleast I myself average 80-100 at 1000-1200 points in master, with protoss (previously random-player, so not just due to protoss being easier to 1a ).
I think you should increase your APM bar to 60 and atleast dedicate one episode to improving your battle-APM, so that you have to capacity to engage in large battles properly without the strain of maintaining a high APM all game long. 60 is just not sufficient, unless you choose your battle ground 30 seconds in advance and start preparing flanks and such. For bio-terran it will still be impossible to engage favorably, because the easiest stutter step micro requires 100+ APM (the one where you select your bio into: mouse-click --- S (stop) ---- mouse-click away --- S (stop) --- ...) and even higher with proper stutter stepping where you go through a three click sequence requiring 150+ APM ( mouse-click --- A (attack move) --- mouse-click --- mouse-click --- A (attack move) --- ...).
Another thing you could choose to focus on is avoid spamming to improve APM, have players embrace their low APM instead of artificially increasing it. If players got APM down at 40 I doubt they will see much improvement by the much hailed APM spam (the theory being, if you spam for months, you will slowly turn useless APM into useful APM), this they should achieve simply by trying to fulfill their races mechanical requirements, being building workers, maintaining steady unit production in the early-mid game.
On August 07 2012 05:21 Cyro wrote: Macro mechanics, creep spread, injects and basic army movement is enough to put you at ~150eapm+ if you are going mid/lategame zerg, how are you going to handle that?
And also considering that 500 resources of zerglings (20 lings) moved twice will count as 40 actions, but 500 resources of roaches (5 roaches) moved twice will count as only 10 actions, how are you going to account for that? APM is a horrible measure of hand/brain speed.
So true..so true.. im around 110-120amp , and im not doing nothing special , just creep spread , injects , controlling army at 2-3 hotkeys , one key for hatches , one key for queens
On August 07 2012 07:08 Pylons wrote: my friend, google was top 8 grandmasters with about 40 - 60 apm, so 40 apm is definitely enough to win in masters league!
Maby someone gonna belive it , but not me. Its impossible , or NA GM is really shit , but its not that bad so.. you lie sir.
I'd say 60, you could do this, 40 maybe a little to slow, if you hit late game, you'll be breaking that easily just producing units.
And it has to be impossible as zerg. I play toss main, but my APM is way higher when I play zerg, the macro mechanics just require a lot more clicking.
I don't think you need a lot of APM in Starcraft 2, at least not for Protoss. I have ~150 APM in WC3 and ~170 in HoN. But when I play SC2 I have around 80 APM if I don't spam a lot.
There's just not much to do, you just scout and make units for most part of the game and macro doesn't need a lot of actions in SC2.
Really good players use a lot of actions without doing anything in order to actually have more awareness of the map and check their macro (sometimes without building units) for example if the player used my hotkey setup of 4 for barracks 5 for factories and 6 for staports, and they want to constantly build out of all of them, they would be constantly hitting 456456456 while whey pressed 1 click 1 click, moving their units around the map for map control etc, to check how close the production cycles are to finishing and double tapping your CC hotkey to go back and build depots. I guess the point I'm making here is that you're not necessarily doing micro intensive strategies if you have high APM.
Name: Caz Race: terran Match up: TvX Your Build: 1 rax FE into MMM His Build: anything Specific Map?: none Comments: I can't incorporate caster units (ghost/raven) into my play as I feel they are so APM intensive. I want to incorporate ghosts into my TvP late game but usually end up staring at the screen while they die to colossi. If you could show effective raven use that woudl be cool too though I have less ideas on when to use this unit.
I respect your approach in how to play the game efficiently but I have to disagree. Tho spamming and useless clicking/tapping is redundant why not encourage players to play faster? 40 apm just seems way too slow and game will end forcing you into situations higher than that.
On August 08 2012 06:56 Champloo wrote: I don't think you need a lot of APM in Starcraft 2, at least not for Protoss. I have ~150 APM in WC3 and ~170 in HoN. But when I play SC2 I have around 80 APM if I don't spam a lot.
There's just not much to do, you just scout and make units for most part of the game and macro doesn't need a lot of actions in SC2.
I also had around 80 APM as protoss when I was low-mid masters. Then I started focusing more on micro and now I'm at 95 or so mid-high masters. You should look into it.
On August 08 2012 06:56 Champloo wrote: I don't think you need a lot of APM in Starcraft 2, at least not for Protoss. I have ~150 APM in WC3 and ~170 in HoN. But when I play SC2 I have around 80 APM if I don't spam a lot.
There's just not much to do, you just scout and make units for most part of the game and macro doesn't need a lot of actions in SC2.
I also had around 80 APM as protoss when I was low-mid masters. Then I started focusing more on micro and now I'm at 95 or so mid-high masters. You should look into it.
I really think 80-100 apm is all you need to hit Master League. Sure, you could probably make it in with less, and of course MORE speed never hurts, but I think the big thing is that with 40 peak apm, that's like 1 click or button press every 1.5 seconds, which strikes me as impossibly slow. Even certain basic mechanics, like stutter-stepping stalkers against non-stim Marines, takes up 40 apm on its own. How are you going to make units and probes while doing your PvT scouting poke? etc
Now, obviously apm is just a measurement unit we have to measure "speed" and it is imperfect. It's just worth noting you can do quite well with low speed-- I'm a low-speed player myself. However, there's nothing wrong with working to improve your speed first, and although, yes, if you can beat someone using only 40 apm, you can beat them when you use more, the difference between 40 apm and 80 apm (assuming no spam) isn't one of magnitude, it's one of [/i]type.[/i] You simply can't macro off of more than a certain number of bases, and can't execute certain moves (such as stim-kiting) with 40 apm. You definitely can't use both.
When your low speed is so slow that it prevents you from using standard strategies, it means that if you are able to do so, you should increase your speed. Some people, due to physical ability, RSI, or age, are not able to do so, and that's understandable. They do what they can. But intentionally playing slow like you're Goku training in 10x gravity so that you can turn off your gravity and kick ass isn't going to work. Goku has the ability to fly, and in 10x gravity he could still do a pushup and stuff. If you can't get over 40 apm, you can't stimkite. You're like Goku and you can't even do a pushup.
"But wait Blazinghand isn't Goku a Saiyan? That means even by getting hurt, when he recovers he gets even stronger, which is why in the Time-"
ok DUDE I get it, it's not a PERFECT analogy. Christ! lay off for a moment! THE POINT is that with 40 apm you can't even do the same kinds of things as normal players do, so it's not a legitimate way to play if your 40 apm is a choice rather than a restriction forced on you against your will.
"but the analogy-"
ok ok dude look let's go talk somewhere else about it
E: but you get the point, don't feel like you gotta slow down and that'll make you better- it won't.
I'm a terran player with around 100-125ish eapm, 150-220 apm. Diamond league.
I think it's important to increase your apm rather than using your apm efficiently. That old school multitask trainer map is great as it forces you out of that comfort-zone which you should get used to. Really I don't see how you can drop while attacking or even macro while attacking with less than 80 apm.
Or imagine playing zerg, you got to spread your creep, scout the enemy get upgrades inject keep map presence up, you cannot do that with less than 100 apm (maybe if your actions are ultra tight and you use minimal clicks but let's assume you will need more than as little clicks as possible like most people)
I can really recommend that multitasking trainer, it forces you out of your comfort zone which is the only good way to get faster.
I'll try to tune in to see if your students can do what is neccesary with so few actions available per minute.
On August 08 2012 08:02 Bojas wrote: I'm a terran player with around 100-125ish eapm, 150-220 apm. Diamond league.
I think it's important to increase your apm rather than using your apm efficiently. That old school multitask trainer map is great as it forces you out of that comfort-zone which you should get used to. Really I don't see how you can drop while attacking or even macro while attacking with less than 80 apm.
Or imagine playing zerg, you got to spread your creep, scout the enemy get upgrades inject keep map presence up, you cannot do that with less than 100 apm (maybe if your actions are ultra tight and you use minimal clicks but let's assume you will need more than as little clicks as possible like most people)
I can really recommend that multitasking trainer, it forces you out of your comfort zone which is the only good way to get faster.
I'll try to tune in to see if your students can do what is neccesary with so few actions available per minute.
If you have this much apm and eapm, there is no reason you should not be in master league and even top 8 master league for that matter.
apm and eapm are really not that important, given that you meet a certain threshold.
I've been able to get rank 1-3 masters with all races with 100 eapm. That is all you need. It's more important once you reach a similar eapm what should be prioritized, tighten up your BOs, practice your micro, and think more proactively in real time.
I don't get why you can't just tell people what to do strategically and have them do it instead of being all like "yo I don't like your style of mechanically playing".
Because if APM 'doesn't matter', then that's all it is. A mechanical aspect of your playing style.
Apm disparities can be overcome with efficiency. Multitasking is not the same as apm, you can actually have decent multitasking with low apm. If you remember to hit all of your macro timings (mules, crono, inject, supply and production) and have your screen in the right place at the right times, you can beat much faster players. I've smashed, and out multi-tasked plenty of players with 2x or 3x my APM.
The best Koreans actually have multitasking that is as good as their APM. I think that is why so many korean players are able to get through open brackets so consistently. They get on 2 bases and just out multitask their opponents with constant 2 or 3 pronged harassment and engagements.
I'd like to clear up a common misconception about spam. When you see a top pro cycle through his hotkeys, they are often looking at the bottom center of their screen to see when production cycles are ending. (Cool downs on production and buildings finishing.) It often appears to be spam, but they are actually looking to see what is finishing when they are cycling. During the opening seconds it's pretty much just spam, but as soon as the first building is placed they are keeping tabs on it's completion in this manner.
On August 08 2012 08:02 Bojas wrote: I'm a terran player with around 100-125ish eapm, 150-220 apm. Diamond league.
I think it's important to increase your apm rather than using your apm efficiently. That old school multitask trainer map is great as it forces you out of that comfort-zone which you should get used to. Really I don't see how you can drop while attacking or even macro while attacking with less than 80 apm.
Or imagine playing zerg, you got to spread your creep, scout the enemy get upgrades inject keep map presence up, you cannot do that with less than 100 apm (maybe if your actions are ultra tight and you use minimal clicks but let's assume you will need more than as little clicks as possible like most people)
I can really recommend that multitasking trainer, it forces you out of your comfort zone which is the only good way to get faster.
I'll try to tune in to see if your students can do what is neccesary with so few actions available per minute.
If you have this much apm and eapm, there is no reason you should not be in master league and even top 8 master league for that matter.
apm and eapm are really not that important, given that you meet a certain threshold.
I've been able to get rank 1-3 masters with all races with 100 eapm. That is all you need. It's more important once you reach a similar eapm what should be prioritized, tighten up your BOs, practice your micro, and think more proactively in real time.
This must be true, I've been stuck in diamond for a year for a reason. I'm not claiming that my apm being high is of huge importance, especially not when multitasking is irrelevant which is most of the game.
Basically I am just wondering if 40 apm is enough to play this game, in my zerg example I wonder if less than 100 apm is enough, so why would you be able to play this game at a decent level, (I assume masters is the goal?) with 40 apm.
On August 08 2012 08:02 Bojas wrote: I'm a terran player with around 100-125ish eapm, 150-220 apm. Diamond league.
I think it's important to increase your apm rather than using your apm efficiently. That old school multitask trainer map is great as it forces you out of that comfort-zone which you should get used to. Really I don't see how you can drop while attacking or even macro while attacking with less than 80 apm.
Or imagine playing zerg, you got to spread your creep, scout the enemy get upgrades inject keep map presence up, you cannot do that with less than 100 apm (maybe if your actions are ultra tight and you use minimal clicks but let's assume you will need more than as little clicks as possible like most people)
I can really recommend that multitasking trainer, it forces you out of your comfort zone which is the only good way to get faster.
I'll try to tune in to see if your students can do what is neccesary with so few actions available per minute.
If you have this much apm and eapm, there is no reason you should not be in master league and even top 8 master league for that matter.
apm and eapm are really not that important, given that you meet a certain threshold.
I've been able to get rank 1-3 masters with all races with 100 eapm. That is all you need. It's more important once you reach a similar eapm what should be prioritized, tighten up your BOs, practice your micro, and think more proactively in real time.
This must be true, I've been stuck in diamond for a year for a reason. I'm not claiming that apm is of huge importance, especially not when multitasking is irrelevant which is most of the game.
Basically I am just wondering if 40 apm is enough to play this game, in my zerg example I wonder if less than 100 apm is enough, so why would you be able to play this game at a decent level, (I assume masters is the goal?) with 40 apm.
You can GET into master league with 40 apm, probably, but you'd have to cheese like a dirty girl to do it. In fact, you can stay there quite comfortably like that. If you want to do anything other than 1-base cheese, though, you'll need 60-80 apm.
I'm definitely going to give it a look. I've always been on the slow side myself but also somewhat passive, around 60 average APM, almost all of which is effective APM, while up to 400 burst in battles, which tends to mean about 30-40 when not much is going on. I guess the problem is to make it so that something's always going on... as opposed to trying to just be fast and ending up neglecting important things.
On August 08 2012 08:19 Solarsail wrote: Currently Diamond @ 40 APM because of wrist problems. I'm really looking forward to this series!
I still I feel I lose more often on decison making than hand speed.
Same, except maybe marine splitting or some crap in TvP with chargelots and storms. Otherwise the reason is almost always not insufficient APM. In my peak at WC3 TFT I played against guys with 2-3 times my APM and won, sometimes 4x.
Even if you use only 40 APM your eyes and your hands do the right thing. What I mean by that is: Especially with such low APM you will constantly look at the Minimap and instantly react to problems, like drops. You will almost never get supply stuck because you take your time to look at your supply count etc.
Most of the APM are not "effective" APM. And I do not mean the Blizzard EAPM, but the real meaning of effect. Many players cycle through their production facilities, just to check on the progress of a certain unit. This is actually useful information but you do not do anything there is no "effect". You can execute your your BO without them. Everything would be more bumpy and you would not feel the comfort of complete control, but still.
Another thing to consider is that even with only 40 APM you have a ton of extra knowledge. Like when to scout, what to look for how to cross out certain builds etc. An good example are push timings like 4 gate, earliest Muta, Stim 1/0 push.
I do not want to talk you out of your project, but please consider this and explain those things too. There is just not that much value in someone executing a nearly perfect build with 40 APM, getting the almost perfect unit mix just to crush some Platinum player. Everybody can get a BO and execute it almost perfectly without pressure. The question is how do you know what your opponent is up to. In other words: "How should you prepare?" And a slightly less important question is how to decide where to focus at each given time.
On August 07 2012 07:08 Pylons wrote: my friend, google was top 8 grandmasters with about 40 - 60 apm, so 40 apm is definitely enough to win in masters league!
Idk it seems like many ppl has missed the point; that you're playing slowly to show that there's a few "key actions" that are themost important and put emphasis on them. I think it sounds like a good and pedagogical starting point. Obviously 40 apm won't always be enough but again, I think it's a good idea and very encouraging for weaker players (regardless of their apm) to watch. Feels like it gives a natural in-depth analysis of all the small elements in handling certain situations (s.a. the given example with a bunker rush in the OP).
Your Build: 1 rax FE into 3 rax MMM 10 min push with stim and +1
His Build: Sase's build (7 zealots, 4 sentries and 3 stalkers hit at 8 minutes, with expo behind)
Specific Map?: Had this twice on cloud kingdom, but it may not matter the map.
Comments: Although I have 2 full bunkers - FFs block repair and the attack is too strong to hold and my nat falls. I have a wall-off in the main but he stockpiles army in my nat while building up his worker count on 2 bases, keeps poking and I fall in the next 6-7 minutes.
I can give you a couple of replays if it's not clear.
On August 08 2012 06:56 Champloo wrote: I don't think you need a lot of APM in Starcraft 2, at least not for Protoss. I have ~150 APM in WC3 and ~170 in HoN. But when I play SC2 I have around 80 APM if I don't spam a lot.
There's just not much to do, you just scout and make units for most part of the game and macro doesn't need a lot of actions in SC2.
I think it mostly depends on what youre opponent is doing, if he attacks you at 3 places (or drops) your apm is going to become much higher, the same will happen to him, so i still think what the opponent is doing is the main decider for max apm, and Protoss mostly just has the lowest because they USUALLY are not the ones doing the drops/multi pronged attacks
There is no point in intentionally being slow. Like yes, you could perform at a fairly high level with 60APM or so if you know what you're doing, but there's a reason all the pros play at 300+. More APM means more potential actions you have to do things you want. Sure some people read too much into APM, but I also hate the people that try and say it doesn't matter, or try to support low APM. Higher APM will always be better as long as you're not inflating it for the sake of it being higher and making more mistakes because of it.
I understand the point of what you're doing isn't really along these lines, but IMO a better idea would be to help people try to improve their APM because it's really not hard to have fast hands in SC2.
You're not getting any better with over 200+ apm, you're not going to do well with 40 apm or less, if you try. What'll make you win is doing all of those actions as smooth as you can. Not as fast, and not as slow, but as long as it's fast enough so that you can do it without making mistakes, but not slow that you won't be able to catch up with anyone. You shouldn't strive to have low apm, but if you do and you can work with it, then do it. But if you can go faster, it's better.
Ive seen many Top Masters and even GM Protoss' who barely break 75apm.. Blizzard made SC2 require less apm so those who lack hand-eye coordination can still win games. If you haven't noticed that then you must live under a rock
I really like this idea - I average around 90-100APM but I know full well that I am not efficient with it. This would really help me learn the most important stuff to be focusing on, before then using my 'excess' APM to do the extra, less important stuff.
I think Mvp said it the best: apm are all about your brain, MysteryTerran mentions hand-eye coordination and it's utter bullshit. Almost everyone can achieve high apm, but the hardest is to think about all those useful actions you're going to do. A simple exemple is terran macro: you've to do production circles and once you've interiorised it you'll do it without thinking, leaving room for other moves.
Is it me or was the point of this thread completely missed by some ? As far as I understand he doesn't advocate low apm as being "good enough". He is proposing to break down what crucial decisions/actions need to be done in a given situation SO THAT 40apm people can improve by knowing what is top priority. For people having more, it also has its uses as both a reminder of what is important and a way to know how to respond with a couple actions in a situation where you cannot afford to "spend" your whole 200apm in the same place.
On August 07 2012 07:08 Pylons wrote: my friend, google was top 8 grandmasters with about 40 - 60 apm, so 40 apm is definitely enough to win in masters league!
Your friend, google, also used blink hacks and (probably) also maphacked. He mostly relied on two base all ins in PvZ and PvT. I don't know what he did in PvP. His style was easy to execute especially coupled with his hacks. His style may not be viable anymore.
Is this the same Google that used to offer coaching for 5$/hour?
On August 08 2012 06:00 JinDesu wrote: I feel that this idea you are promoting is similar to what a lot of martial arts instructors teach - do it slower at first, a lot of times, to get the technique perfect. Once perfect, increase the speed and try to maintain the correct technique.
If you can perfect your decision making at 40APM, then you can move onto 60APM, 80APM, 100APM, etc.
In fact, getting everything perfect at 40APM can help force you to understand what you need more APM for - i.e. a midgame engagement while macro may likely need more than 40APM, and once you hit that wall you understand how to improve.
Exactly. And I'm not saying 40apm is even going to be enough in situations, but I think the REASONING is enough so that you should learn it for future use when you are going to dedicate your apm. Maybe stopping a drop can be done easily with 40apm yet you are a 150 apm player. Instead of spending 120apm trying to stop the drop and then 30apm doing other things, you can dedicate 40apm to the drop (because you know exactly what each action is going to do) and then spend the other 110 pulling a counter attack or doing whatever else.
On August 08 2012 06:02 Gerbilkit wrote: My question is why 40? I realize any number is somewhat arbitrary but I think there must be some reason you picked this one.
I picked this because I am certain that over 99% of players can play with 40apm. So not only will it cover a broad range but it is a challenge for me too to learn what the best 40 actions are that I can make in a minute.
On August 08 2012 06:08 Tom Cruise wrote: isnt 40 like ok? i play t and p at 40-60 apm average on masters but my z is maybe 80-100 (ofc this rises in combat)
by "ok" I assume you're asking where it stands on the APM scale. 40apm is slow. This is intentional. This is my way to do a couple of things 1. Slow it down and go through every action I'm making so that the observer can easily follow 2. Show which decisions take precedence over others (Ex: maybe focus fire the scv building the bunker takes precedence over move your queen from your main to your natural) 3. Prove that if I can stop something with 40apm, you can not only stop it with your 100apm but still have 60apm to improve with and do even more to gain advantage!
On August 08 2012 06:10 wcr.4fun wrote: might work as protoss. You can't play zerg good and have low apm. You need to spread creep, manage your injects.
I'm less interested in the apm adding aspects such as spreading creep. While spreading creep is nice and definitely helps me in masters league, if someone was doing a 7gate blink stalker attack I wouldn't be making spreading in the middle of the map a priority. If you have the extra apm, that could be something that you could do but I'm going to cover the main 40actions I believe should be achieved.
On August 08 2012 06:16 LJ wrote: I think it is a great idea and could help people with decision making regardless of APM so I look forward to your videos.
Thank you.
On August 08 2012 06:19 CruelZeratul wrote: I like the idea quite a lot. I have more than 40 APM, but often times in battles I just don't know how to use them efficiently.
On August 08 2012 06:10 wcr.4fun wrote: might work as protoss. You can't play zerg good and have low apm. You need to spread creep, manage your injects.
Stephano is greatest USA bonjwa and he barely ever spreads creep (I troll I troll, but seriously, he barely spreads creep)... And realistically, injects are what, 20 APM if done efficiently?
People are missing Llamma's point, which is actually common sense and 100% correct. The best way to practice and improve in anything is to isolate the simple, basic aspects and practice them rigorously. Only once you've become proficient at these individual pieces do you combine them all.
A quick example is swimming and learning how to become a faster and stronger swimmer. It's very common to practice leg strokes and arm strokes separately, doing laps with only your arms for propulsion and similarly doing laps with only your legs kicking. Or take basketball for example, you learn how to shoot and you learn how to dribble separately and only after becoming proficient at both do you start to practice jump shots and lay ups.
Essentially what Llamma is saying is, focus on decision making and don't worry about your speed. Once you've gotten a decent feel for the game strategically you can move on to playing faster. 500 APM doesnt mean much if you don't know how to scout effectively or how to respond to certain unit comps/strategies. Obviously vice versa, all the game knowledge in the world is useless if you can't click accurately to save your life.
Essentially, I think his point is that you need to break your game down and isolate the basic pieces, strategy and mechanics. For the vast majority of us it's completely inefficient to try and improve both at the same time.
Great examples. It's true, I'm trying to promote looking into every action (like I did in my Inside the Minds of Masters series with the pros) and saying, "Why do I do this over a different action?" Once you learn that, you will learn so much more.
On August 08 2012 06:34 ImustnotfeaR wrote: This is a great idea. How efficient can you make each click? is basically your question. I hope you discover some cool results man!
Theoretically if you discover how to hold something (for example) with 40 apm you can then work out how to get ahead at the same time with the other 100 apm perhaps?
Of course the availablity of the in game resources will limit this approach..
I'm considering after a while moving the series up to "winning with 60apm" then 80apm then 100apm, showing how you can utilize all of the additional apm that you have over the original 40apm you use for decisions. This would be well into the future though I'd imagine.
On August 08 2012 06:39 JKM wrote: I think 40 APM is setting the bar too low. If someone is stuck at 40 APM they should play cards or chess instead of SC2. Anyone should be able to improve their APM from 40 to atleast 60-80 by just deciding to do so, and believe it or not 60-80 allows you to reach mid master in SC2.
Atleast I myself average 80-100 at 1000-1200 points in master, with protoss (previously random-player, so not just due to protoss being easier to 1a ).
I think you should increase your APM bar to 60 and atleast dedicate one episode to improving your battle-APM, so that you have to capacity to engage in large battles properly without the strain of maintaining a high APM all game long. 60 is just not sufficient, unless you choose your battle ground 30 seconds in advance and start preparing flanks and such. For bio-terran it will still be impossible to engage favorably, because the easiest stutter step micro requires 100+ APM (the one where you select your bio into: mouse-click --- S (stop) ---- mouse-click away --- S (stop) --- ...) and even higher with proper stutter stepping where you go through a three click sequence requiring 150+ APM ( mouse-click --- A (attack move) --- mouse-click --- mouse-click --- A (attack move) --- ...).
Another thing you could choose to focus on is avoid spamming to improve APM, have players embrace their low APM instead of artificially increasing it. If players got APM down at 40 I doubt they will see much improvement by the much hailed APM spam (the theory being, if you spam for months, you will slowly turn useless APM into useful APM), this they should achieve simply by trying to fulfill their races mechanical requirements, being building workers, maintaining steady unit production in the early-mid game.
I want to isolate one thing you said
"60 is just not sufficient, unless you choose your battle ground 30 seconds in advance and start preparing flanks and such."
So why not do that? This is EXACTLY what I'm promoting for you to do. Start to prepare earlier, start to control the mental part of the game so much because you know more about it than your opponent. I didn't move up into high masters and start playing GMs until I started to do this where I could plan everything out, just as a chess masters plans 20 moves ahead in his game as well.
As for the marine stutter step, yeah you probably can't do that with 40apm. I'm not crazy worried about showcasing amazing micro skills in those situations but rather other engagements that are more about decisions and preparation.
On August 08 2012 06:45 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: I'd say 60, you could do this, 40 maybe a little to slow, if you hit late game, you'll be breaking that easily just producing units.
And it has to be impossible as zerg. I play toss main, but my APM is way higher when I play zerg, the macro mechanics just require a lot more clicking.
I may make statements in the later game if necessary to allow myself to go up to 60apm for when I'm producing units. If it's something as bland and obvious as pressing "SRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" then I feel that could be my "APM spike"
On August 08 2012 06:49 BongPower wrote: I mean my my average apm is around 50-80 in a game (1v1 masterse here) but it jumps up to about 200 ~ occasionally when #$^& hits the fan.
I think what seperates the pros from the not pros is they constantly keep that apm no matter what just so when they need it it's already there.
Kinda the way an olympic boxer is always hoping around with his footwork, you know?
Sure it's good to have the ability to jump to 200apm, but if you aren't making 200actions count, why have 200 apm? The pros make it count but they know which ones take precedence, most other people struggle to find the best decisions to make first and that's why the pros are better. Less because they have high apm (anyone can have that) and more because they truly know what decisions need to be made first.
On August 08 2012 07:08 Savant7 wrote: Really good players use a lot of actions without doing anything in order to actually have more awareness of the map and check their macro (sometimes without building units) for example if the player used my hotkey setup of 4 for barracks 5 for factories and 6 for staports, and they want to constantly build out of all of them, they would be constantly hitting 456456456 while whey pressed 1 click 1 click, moving their units around the map for map control etc, to check how close the production cycles are to finishing and double tapping your CC hotkey to go back and build depots. I guess the point I'm making here is that you're not necessarily doing micro intensive strategies if you have high APM.
I think something else to point out is that a lot of the apm is cycling and stuff, what if you never needed to cycle? What if someone knew the game and what was going on so well, they could simply press 4 at the perfect time and build an scv. Would their apm be higher? No. Would they be better? Probably (assuming this knowledge of the game was outside just building timings).
On August 08 2012 07:20 caznitch wrote: This is an awesome idea! Thanks MrLlamaSC!
Name: Caz Race: terran Match up: TvX Your Build: 1 rax FE into MMM His Build: anything Specific Map?: none Comments: I can't incorporate caster units (ghost/raven) into my play as I feel they are so APM intensive. I want to incorporate ghosts into my TvP late game but usually end up staring at the screen while they die to colossi. If you could show effective raven use that woudl be cool too though I have less ideas on when to use this unit.
If you could be a little more specific with this I would love to help. Right now it is very broad and I need a build from him (is he going all in, is he going collosus for a push at X minutes? what?)
I suppose I could try and just go through a build order though that will safely lead you to ghosts but I'd still like to have an idea for what he's doing.
On August 08 2012 07:28 Danzo wrote: I respect your approach in how to play the game efficiently but I have to disagree. Tho spamming and useless clicking/tapping is redundant why not encourage players to play faster? 40 apm just seems way too slow and game will end forcing you into situations higher than that.
I'm encouraging myself to play at 40apm, not other players. I'm encouraging other players to take 40apm of their 100apm and dedicate it to the decisions I make with the 40apm so they can see what's important, then use the remaining 60apm they have to do the rest of the things they would like to do.
On August 08 2012 06:56 Champloo wrote: I don't think you need a lot of APM in Starcraft 2, at least not for Protoss. I have ~150 APM in WC3 and ~170 in HoN. But when I play SC2 I have around 80 APM if I don't spam a lot.
There's just not much to do, you just scout and make units for most part of the game and macro doesn't need a lot of actions in SC2.
I also had around 80 APM as protoss when I was low-mid masters. Then I started focusing more on micro and now I'm at 95 or so mid-high masters. You should look into it.
I really think 80-100 apm is all you need to hit Master League. Sure, you could probably make it in with less, and of course MORE speed never hurts, but I think the big thing is that with 40 peak apm, that's like 1 click or button press every 1.5 seconds, which strikes me as impossibly slow. Even certain basic mechanics, like stutter-stepping stalkers against non-stim Marines, takes up 40 apm on its own. How are you going to make units and probes while doing your PvT scouting poke? etc
Now, obviously apm is just a measurement unit we have to measure "speed" and it is imperfect. It's just worth noting you can do quite well with low speed-- I'm a low-speed player myself. However, there's nothing wrong with working to improve your speed first, and although, yes, if you can beat someone using only 40 apm, you can beat them when you use more, the difference between 40 apm and 80 apm (assuming no spam) isn't one of magnitude, it's one of type. You simply can't macro off of more than a certain number of bases, and can't execute certain moves (such as stim-kiting) with 40 apm. You definitely can't use both.
When your low speed is so slow that it prevents you from using standard strategies, it means that if you are able to do so, you should increase your speed. Some people, due to physical ability, RSI, or age, are not able to do so, and that's understandable. They do what they can. But intentionally playing slow like you're Goku training in 10x gravity so that you can turn off your gravity and kick ass isn't going to work. Goku has the ability to fly, and in 10x gravity he could still do a pushup and stuff. If you can't get over 40 apm, you can't stimkite. You're like Goku and you can't even do a pushup.
"But wait Blazinghand isn't Goku a Saiyan? That means even by getting hurt, when he recovers he gets even stronger, which is why in the Time-"
ok DUDE I get it, it's not a PERFECT analogy. Christ! lay off for a moment! THE POINT is that with 40 apm you can't even do the same kinds of things as normal players do, so it's not a legitimate way to play if your 40 apm is a choice rather than a restriction forced on you against your will.
"but the analogy-"
ok ok dude look let's go talk somewhere else about it
E: but you get the point, don't feel like you gotta slow down and that'll make you better- it won't.
Think of it like Chess. You can play a game of speed chess or you can play a game of chess where you take minutes to think about every move. Which one are you going to make more mistakes in and have less time to analyze each situation? If you could pause a game of starcraft every few seconds and determine your next move, you would become SUPER knowledgable about the game. That's what I'm kind of doing by dropping down to 40apm. I'm pausing the game for a quick second and looking around as opposed to trying to blaze through and do everything and not learn a situation to remember in the future.
Besides, goku is a saiyan
On August 08 2012 08:04 zmansman17 wrote: I really like this idea because it is hard for middle tier players to distinguish between what actions are better from a 300 apm player.
This way perhaps, players have a more realistic template from which they can make their own actions.
Thank you for getting it
On August 08 2012 08:08 ymir233 wrote: I don't get why you can't just tell people what to do strategically and have them do it instead of being all like "yo I don't like your style of mechanically playing".
Because if APM 'doesn't matter', then that's all it is. A mechanical aspect of your playing style.
APM does matter. But it's the correct APM that matters. I can have 200apm but if I'm just sending units to die and building 20x overlords during fights and spreading and then cancelling creep tumors, none of it is useful.
On August 08 2012 08:10 Reborn8u wrote: Apm disparities can be overcome with efficiency. Multitasking is not the same as apm, you can actually have decent multitasking with low apm. If you remember to hit all of your macro timings (mules, crono, inject, supply and production) and have your screen in the right place at the right times, you can beat much faster players. I've smashed, and out multi-tasked plenty of players with 2x or 3x my APM.
The best Koreans actually have multitasking that is as good as their APM. I think that is why so many korean players are able to get through open brackets so consistently. They get on 2 bases and just out multitask their opponents with constant 2 or 3 pronged harassment and engagements.
I'd like to clear up a common misconception about spam. When you see a top pro cycle through his hotkeys, they are often looking at the bottom center of their screen to see when production cycles are ending. (Cool downs on production and buildings finishing.) It often appears to be spam, but they are actually looking to see what is finishing when they are cycling. During the opening seconds it's pretty much just spam, but as soon as the first building is placed they are keeping tabs on it's completion in this manner.
Correct. The pros have high apm because they have great multitasking and decision making to where they can make 200 amazing decisions with their 200apm. We have 200apm but we can only make 40-100 great decisions with it and they may not be in the correct order and thus we run into troubles of not having the decision making/knowledge necessary.
On August 08 2012 08:19 Solarsail wrote: Currently Diamond @ 40 APM because of wrist problems. I'm really looking forward to this series!
I still I feel I lose more often on decison making than hand speed.
Same, except maybe marine splitting or some crap in TvP with chargelots and storms. Otherwise the reason is almost always not insufficient APM. In my peak at WC3 TFT I played against guys with 2-3 times my APM and won, sometimes 4x.
Sure, and this series isn't about marine splitting.
On August 08 2012 08:28 irocksu wrote: Even if you use only 40 APM your eyes and your hands do the right thing. What I mean by that is: Especially with such low APM you will constantly look at the Minimap and instantly react to problems, like drops. You will almost never get supply stuck because you take your time to look at your supply count etc.
Most of the APM are not "effective" APM. And I do not mean the Blizzard EAPM, but the real meaning of effect. Many players cycle through their production facilities, just to check on the progress of a certain unit. This is actually useful information but you do not do anything there is no "effect". You can execute your your BO without them. Everything would be more bumpy and you would not feel the comfort of complete control, but still.
Another thing to consider is that even with only 40 APM you have a ton of extra knowledge. Like when to scout, what to look for how to cross out certain builds etc. An good example are push timings like 4 gate, earliest Muta, Stim 1/0 push.
I do not want to talk you out of your project, but please consider this and explain those things too. There is just not that much value in someone executing a nearly perfect build with 40 APM, getting the almost perfect unit mix just to crush some Platinum player. Everybody can get a BO and execute it almost perfectly without pressure. The question is how do you know what your opponent is up to. In other words: "How should you prepare?" And a slightly less important question is how to decide where to focus at each given time.
If you watch my other stuff you will see I'm ALL about game knowledge. I will be explaining everything very thoroughly so that you do not need the APM but rather just have the game knowledge. I'd recommend taking a look at my inside the minds of masters series where I go through videos and explain what they scout, what it means, what they can cancel out, etc... I'll be doing all of this because hey, we have 40apm and since it's super slow we can now think about drops coming in and supply and such.
On August 08 2012 08:33 showBanquo wrote: Idk it seems like many ppl has missed the point; that you're playing slowly to show that there's a few "key actions" that are themost important and put emphasis on them. I think it sounds like a good and pedagogical starting point. Obviously 40 apm won't always be enough but again, I think it's a good idea and very encouraging for weaker players (regardless of their apm) to watch. Feels like it gives a natural in-depth analysis of all the small elements in handling certain situations (s.a. the given example with a bunker rush in the OP).
Exactly right, thanks for getting it. 40apm is NOT always enough. You can't stutter step correctly with 40apm, but that's not what I'm trying to show. (though it is in the sense that at least you can learn the fact that you need more than 40apm to stutter step micro and maybe you'll learn other situations ARE possible with 40apm while you thought they would require more).
On August 08 2012 08:36 bigtabs wrote: Name: tabs Race: Terran
Match up: TvP
Your Build: 1 rax FE into 3 rax MMM 10 min push with stim and +1
His Build: Sase's build (7 zealots, 4 sentries and 3 stalkers hit at 8 minutes, with expo behind)
Specific Map?: Had this twice on cloud kingdom, but it may not matter the map.
Comments: Although I have 2 full bunkers - FFs block repair and the attack is too strong to hold and my nat falls. I have a wall-off in the main but he stockpiles army in my nat while building up his worker count on 2 bases, keeps poking and I fall in the next 6-7 minutes.
I can give you a couple of replays if it's not clear.
This is a good example of how to fill out the form. I'll make sure to get you something.
On August 08 2012 09:21 IcedBacon wrote: There is no point in intentionally being slow. Like yes, you could perform at a fairly high level with 60APM or so if you know what you're doing, but there's a reason all the pros play at 300+. More APM means more potential actions you have to do things you want. Sure some people read too much into APM, but I also hate the people that try and say it doesn't matter, or try to support low APM. Higher APM will always be better as long as you're not inflating it for the sake of it being higher and making more mistakes because of it.
I understand the point of what you're doing isn't really along these lines, but IMO a better idea would be to help people try to improve their APM because it's really not hard to have fast hands in SC2.
If I mindlessly get people to improve their APM and have "fast hands" then I am not teaching much at all. In boxing it's not the guy who throws the most punches who wins, but the guy who throws the most efficient punches. Learn what Actions count, use those the most, and you're golden.
On August 08 2012 09:39 Absurd Bunny wrote: You're not getting any better with over 200+ apm, you're not going to do well with 40 apm or less, if you try. What'll make you win is doing all of those actions as smooth as you can. Not as fast, and not as slow, but as long as it's fast enough so that you can do it without making mistakes, but not slow that you won't be able to catch up with anyone. You shouldn't strive to have low apm, but if you do and you can work with it, then do it. But if you can go faster, it's better.
This is a true statement, and I think players should have more than 40apm, but I think they should realize why they need more than 40apm and what they can actually do with it. Will it take 40apm to deal with a drop or 110apm? If you know, you can allocate it differently and be in a great position as opposed to completely tied up using too much apm in one spot.
On August 08 2012 09:50 Fuego wrote: I really like this idea - I average around 90-100APM but I know full well that I am not efficient with it. This would really help me learn the most important stuff to be focusing on, before then using my 'excess' APM to do the extra, less important stuff.
Hope to see some Protoss videos so I can learn.
Good to know I'll be doing all races so don't worry about that.
On August 08 2012 10:00 BioTech wrote: Im 38, Im currently diamond top 8, but have been in Masters twice. Whilst in Masters Ive beaten GMs, maybe 5-6 victories ever.
My APM is around 40. My wins rely upon precise timing attacks and very specific unit combinations. Most of my games are over under 30min.
Sounds a lot like what I'm trying to teach. With good knowledge of the game you can overcome speed. Of course both are better together but I think learning about the game should be #1
On August 08 2012 10:09 sAsImre wrote: I think Mvp said it the best: apm are all about your brain, MysteryTerran mentions hand-eye coordination and it's utter bullshit. Almost everyone can achieve high apm, but the hardest is to think about all those useful actions you're going to do. A simple exemple is terran macro: you've to do production circles and once you've interiorised it you'll do it without thinking, leaving room for other moves.
Well said.
On August 08 2012 10:20 rezoacken wrote: Is it me or was the point of this thread completely missed by some ? As far as I understand he doesn't advocate low apm as being "good enough". He is proposing to break down what crucial decisions/actions need to be done in a given situation SO THAT 40apm people can improve by knowing what is top priority. For people having more, it also has its uses as both a reminder of what is important and a way to know how to respond with a couple actions in a situation where you cannot afford to "spend" your whole 200apm in the same place.
Bingo! knowing top priority is exactly what I'm trying to get at.
This is a good concept, but will be nearly impossible as zerg past early game. My APM effeciency is close to 90% as all races (APM/EAPM), and even though zerg is my worst race by a ridiculous margin, I still average ~140 APM as zerg and 80-90ish as Protoss and Terran.
Hmmm, maybe that's why I'm bad as Z... but I don't think so.
I think the entire starcraft world would be shocked how good you can play at a ridiculously low apm. EAPM is still a really awful judge of effectiveness because "effective" realistically means more than "not just spam".
I hope the OP is actually really good, you could definitely beat some seriously good players hovering around 30-40APM and spiking it up to the mid 1 or 2 hundreds when needed.
I think this is a really good idea. APM efficiency is what makes APM actually valuable. Right now, near the top of Gold, I am averaging 50 APM, and I crush some opponents who have up to 120 APM. It's all about what you do with what you have. Just ask Cave Johnson.
In support of this, I propose something that I've lost to a couple of times, mostly through bad scouting.
Name: Formula (in game, beLIEve) Race: Random Match up: ZvP
Your Build: fast 3 base into roach/ling, with upgrades (stephano style) His Build: 1-base Colossus (all in), hitting before 10:00 /10:30 Specific Map?: happened twice on Condemned ridge, and once on two other maps. Map doesn't really matter
Comments:I am aware that good scouting should prevent this, and I could have stopped it with better macro, but at 50 APM, 'better macro' is a relative term, and better decisions would seem to me to be a better solution
P.S. How are so many people claiming to be Masters Leauge? I though only 2% of each reigons ladder could be Masters. I think alot of people are trying to show of their e-penis a bit too much here. This is about learning. Bugger off with your "I have 200 apm, you need 200 apm to be any good." oh yeah? Look at Goody. That is all.
On August 08 2012 11:02 Formula wrote: I think this is a really good idea. APM efficiency is what makes APM actually valuable. Right now, near the top of Gold, I am averaging 50 APM, and I crush some opponents who have up to 120 APM. It's all about what you do with what you have. Just ask Cave Johnson.
In support of this, I propose something that I've lost to a couple of times, mostly through bad scouting.
Name: Formula (in game, beLIEve) Race: Random Match up: ZvP
Your Build: fast 3 base into roach/ling, with upgrades (stephano style) His Build: 1-base Colossus (all in), hitting before 10:00 /10:30 Specific Map?: happened twice on Condemned ridge, and once on two other maps. Map doesn't really matter
Comments:I am aware that good scouting should prevent this, and I could have stopped it with better macro, but at 50 APM, 'better macro' is a relative term, and better decisions would seem to me to be a better solution
P.S. How are so many people claiming to be Masters Leauge? I though only 2% of each reigons ladder could be Masters. I think alot of people are trying to show of their e-penis a bit too much here. This is about learning. Bugger off with your "I have 200 apm, you need 200 apm to be any good." oh yeah? Look at Goody. That is all.
I can already tell you this: If he is sticking on one base you cannot go to 3 bases. If he actually waits until 10:30 to attack then maybe you actually could and hold it, but generally they would not wait that long and would hit earlier so you should stick on 2 bases for longer and get an army to prepare instead of macroing up a 3rd base.
I made it to mid/low master's with ~55 or 60 APM (which is about what most people can manage after playing like ~100 games or so), except in quite long games where I can reach up to 70 APM over the whole match. One of my in-game friends plays random at the high master's level and has consistently less APM than me and just destroys me easily every game. So being limited by how MANY actions you can do at a time really doesn't start to actually limit you until at least grandmaster league. It's what you DO with the actions that you have that matters much more
On August 07 2012 05:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Why not just improve and get... say 50 apm, or 60... A thread on being effective while acting in a completely ineffective way is redundant and teaches bad mechanics in my opinion.
Sure, you can win, but why? That's like me saying "I can walk a mile with 1 foot, look at me it's so hard" Can you explain what really makes you think this is a good idea?
I agree with this.
40 APM is actually really reeally slow. I am an extremely slow player, and even I have over 50 most of the time.
I started off playing at a significantly lower apm than that, and my apm dropped below that again once I realised that there is an attack move command and units not moving will autoattack. Playing against zerglings was a lot of fun before I knew you could attack without indiviually selecting targets.
On August 08 2012 12:06 ahole-surprise wrote: Anybody claiming X league with Y APM should first indicate whether or not they are protoss. This is a very critical detail.
Protosses have a lower APM based on just how the mechanics of the race are set up, not because they are worse players.
Like while playing zerg or terran you can make units while microing in a battle and generally without looking at your base. Of course when you need to look back at your base to make anything at all (and, since protoss' units are the most expensive, they make less units in total) you are going to have less APM.
My main is protoss, but when I play zerg or terran in team games my APM is usually more than what I average with protoss despite the fact that I'm much better at toss.
On August 08 2012 12:06 ahole-surprise wrote: Anybody claiming X league with Y APM should first indicate whether or not they are protoss. This is a very critical detail.
Protosses have a lower APM based on just how the mechanics of the race are set up, not because they are worse players.
Like while playing zerg or terran you can make units while microing in a battle and generally without looking at your base. Of course when you need to look back at your base to make anything at all (and, since protoss' units are the most expensive, they make less units in total) you are going to have less APM.
My main is protoss, but when I play zerg or terran in team games my APM is usually more than what I average with protoss despite the fact that I'm much better at toss.
sure in general you will have less apm for protoss because of the style of the race as well as the amount of producing they have to do (less units at higher cost and higher supply). Zergs also generally get the added apm from creep spread and injecting and the little tasks like that
overall though I'm more focused on the important APM being used in certain situations with decision making, which i feel is pretty similar amongst all races
It's cool of you to put that much effort into helping low apm players, but it's like fighting the consequences of a sickness, instead of fighting the sickness itself.
On August 07 2012 06:06 Citherna wrote: When you play as zerg, generally you're also building more units, (perhaps that's the cause of all the extra APM for you); building 40 sets of zerglings obviously requires 40 actions, whereas building two tanks or colossi requires... well... two apm. :x.
actually that's the time when the slowest player has his apm peak, not a good example... spamming the same button faster is not what's hard for slow players.
it's clicking on the minimap/doing multiple things at once/switching between ctrl groups/macroing while controlling the army/etc etc. but not pressing Z really hard. thats not by any more challenging mechanics wise than building 3 thors lol
There shouldn't be a cap on someone's APM, as long as they are able to touch type, the more they are sure of themselves with their desicions and the more they know what to do, the higher APM they will get. I went from being bronze with 30ish apm to now 1.1k+ masters with 300 apm. My fingers and hands ability to move quickly did not change at all, my desicion making process within the game moved at a faster rate the more I understood at the game. We can all move our fingers very fast and accurately when we are sure of ourselves.
If you think players like DRG could hit ridiculously high APM as soon as they started playing, you're totally wrong. Its a gradual increase that comes with game knowledge.
On August 08 2012 17:26 Nekovivie wrote: I dont think you would last long in GM with low APM
Equal skill levels, obviously the player with higher APM will be doing more in the same amoutn of time, so in theory should win the game easily.
edit; obviously assuming the actions are useful and not just spamming control groups
Once again, the point of this is not to say, "Hey you can be GM with only 40apm!"
There are probably only a couple of players out there who could be GM with 40apm. The point that I'm trying to make is that every single day I see people say, "I lost to X and I'm not sure how." A lot of it is not them being outclassed (triple drops + a push at the front for example) but rather just a loss on their part from sloppy play throughout the match and a misunderstanding of what is important.
First off their macro usually has trouble because they are out microing their units around the map (not gaining much from it, just moving them around because pros do) and thus they don't leave enough apm to macro up back home.
Let's say you have 200 apm. I'm saying let me show you the most important 40 actions every minute to make, and then you make all of those decisions plus add 160 actions of your own on top. Are the 40 action optimal enough to be in GM? Probably not, eventually there is a point where this speed is not enough. But that's not the point of this! I'm saying if you can have 40apm then you can hold a certain situation or engagement or do a certain build up to a certain extent. Almost everyone has 40apm so almost everyone should be able to hold this stuff by simply learning the game more and learning the best reactions!
As stated before, I also believe that APM only contributes if you're making the correct decisions.
I average about 150APM as a zerg player on plat, but I very often make wrong decisions, or get surprised due to lack of experience and scouting. My APM is this high for my league is only because I use to play Terran in Broodwar.
IMO, being able to make correct decisions in an instant as well as the correct execution of your play is much more important than spamming. High APM is just a by-product of having solid execution on all the different parts of your play.
For those of you saying "APM increases with skill, APM isn't all that important", that's exactly what this thread is about. If you can hold All-In X with 40 APM, clearly, APM doesn't mean much.
I love this idea, and would like to see the following:
Name: Salivanth Race: Zerg Match up: ZvP Your Build: Stephano-style roach max. His Build: Sentry-immortal all-in. Specific Map?: Doesn't matter. Replay: Comments: I have held this build off, but I had 80+ APM when I did it. It involved constant trading, injecting under pressure, and all sorts of (for Gold at least) APM-heavy stuff. I would greatly like to see this held with just 40 APM: I simply think it would be interesting. It would also help a lot of people: This build is really strong.
On August 08 2012 07:20 caznitch wrote: This is an awesome idea! Thanks MrLlamaSC!
Name: Caz Race: terran Match up: TvX Your Build: 1 rax FE into MMM His Build: anything Specific Map?: none Comments: I can't incorporate caster units (ghost/raven) into my play as I feel they are so APM intensive. I want to incorporate ghosts into my TvP late game but usually end up staring at the screen while they die to colossi. If you could show effective raven use that woudl be cool too though I have less ideas on when to use this unit.
Ok - sorry about the vagueness. I'll tighten this up
Name: Caz Race: terran Match up: TvP Your Build: 1 rax FE into MMMg His Build: 2 base colossus Specific Map?: none Comments: I can't incorporate caster units (ghost) into my play as I feel they are so APM intensive. I want to incorporate ghosts into my TvP late game but usually end up staring at the screen while they die to colossi. I've also been steam rolled a couple of times by protoss going for a templar/colossi mix late game and feel I could have used ghosts to snipe but, again, there is too much going on late game for me to focus on the right decisions.
On a side note, if you could show correct raven use in any match up - that'd be cool too.
On August 08 2012 14:51 TigerKarl wrote: It's cool of you to put that much effort into helping low apm players, but it's like fighting the consequences of a sickness, instead of fighting the sickness itself.
No. It is not.
Essentially what this project does is "slows" battles down and shows what to prioritize. Even with a ton of APM you can still be overfocusing on the wrong things and not being as efficient as possible (i.e. lets say your fighting a maxed battle against a terran and you spend all 400 of your apm blinking away injured stalkers). What this video series is going to show you is what is most important: is it casting perfect forcefields, pulling back injured units, setting a good concave, etc.
I like this, it reminds me of learning to play an instrument. When doing so, instructors will always put a cap on your speed, even though most people just want to play fast and have fun. The reason of this is simple, if you do not know what you are playing or how to play it at a slower, methodical level, when you ramp up you will hit the wrong notes, cut corners, get off beat, etc.
Perhaps if you have 200 APM you are playing a lovely song with ripping solos. But most people I would imagine are missing notes and sound like they are just flailing half the time. Slowing down can actually benefit musicians and even out weak spots in their play. This has the added benefit of teaching slower players how to play great melodies with the skills they already have before moving onto harder, more complex songs (if you follow the analogy).
On August 09 2012 00:19 vesicular wrote: I like this, it reminds me of learning to play an instrument. When doing so, instructors will always put a cap on your speed, even though most people just want to play fast and have fun. The reason of this is simple, if you do not know what you are playing or how to play it at a slower, methodical level, when you ramp up you will hit the wrong notes, cut corners, get off beat, etc.
Perhaps if you have 200 APM you are playing a lovely song with ripping solos. But most people I would imagine are missing notes and sound like they are just flailing half the time. Slowing down can actually benefit musicians and even out weak spots in their play. This has the added benefit of teaching slower players how to play great melodies with the skills they already have before moving onto harder, more complex songs (if you follow the analogy).
The analogy is fine, but it doesn't apply to slowing down APM unless you ALSO slow down the game with it. After all, when you play a song slower, the actual SONG is slower-- you lower it from 120 BPM to 90 BPM or 60 BPM. When you slow down in Sc2, everything still happens at the same speed-- units get built, units attack, timings happen, etc.
The analogy you SHOULD use is that a conductor is conducting a song, and one player in the symphony wants to practice at a slow rate, so he played at Adiago when everyone else is Allegretto. Sure, he hits his fingerings, but he looks and sounds like ass as a result. If you want to practice playing at 40 APM, play the game on Normal or Slow or you LITERALLY won't be able to do the stuff you need to do.
Let me explain more clearly:
All this in blizzard minutes: If you're on 2 bases, constant scv production is about ~7 scvs a minute, and assuming you have synced production between your two OCs, that requires 10 apm (3 times hitting the hotkey for your OC, 7 for scvs). If you have, say, 1 tech lab rax, 2 reactor rax, 1 factory with tech lab, and 1 starport, and you make constantly out of all of them... you need to select your rax and make marines twice per minute, groups of 5 marines, that's 12 apm (2 times hitting the hotkey for your rax, 10 for making marines). you need to select your factory and make a tank once every 45 seconds. That's 2.5 apm ( ~1.3 times hitting the hotkey for your fact, ~1.3 times making a tank). you need to select your starport and make a medivac once every 42 seconds. That's 2.5 apm (~1.3 times hitting the hotkey for your starport, ~1.3 times making a medivac.
Note: if you have rax, fact and starport all on one hotkey, this will increase the required apm slightly. This assumes they're all on different control groups.
Furthermore, you're producing 7 supply of scvs, 10 supply of marines, 4 supply of tanks, and 3 supply of medivacs per minute, which is 24 supply. Including the cost of supply depots, this is quite affordable on 2 bases. however, to make supply depots is pretty apm intensive. Let's say you optimize your apm quite a bit, and make all 3 supply depots at once. That's at least 7 apm (1 to grab 3 scvs, 3 to make 3 depots, 3 to rally them back to minerals). Although you could choose not to rally them back to the minerals, this will generate apm later when you have to do so.
Lastly, mule calldowns happen every 90 seconds. With 2 orbitals, this means an average of 1.3 apm is needed for mule calldowns. We can assume you already have the OC selected for worker production.
With no army control, 2 base macro for terran requires a minimum of 35 APM. This is non-spam APM (selecting unselected units, creating units, and making depots and calling down mules). If you want to control your army in any meaningful fashion, this will cause your apm to go above 35. After 7-8 minutes in the game, when you're on 2 bases, this is the lowest your APM can be without serious macro slippage.
If your games last longer, on average, than about 11 or 12 minutes, and your apm is below 35, this means that your macro is sub-optimal, or you literally don't micro, or some combination of the two.
To play the game at a medium level, you need at least 60 effective apm. Certain styles and units benefit from additional apm more than others do. If your peak effective apm is below 60, unless you are unbelievably bad at Sc2, your speed is what is holding you back.
And really, with a full 60 APM, you only have enough APM to give your army a command every 2 seconds, which is really really not great. You can't kite, splitting of course isn't an option-- but assuming you macro properly you might be able to streamroll weaker opponents anyways.
With 40 APM? You can give your army a command every 12 seconds. You're devastatingly slow.
Now, there's nothing WRONG with having low APM, and you know, even with 40 APM you can make it into Master League if you are a dirty, dirty cheeser. But specifically limiting yourself to 40 APM when you don't need to can do nothing but impede you.
However, APM itself is not a skill-- it is an indicator of a skill, your speed. To overcome low speed, don't try to get higher apm by spamming. Try to get higher apm by having good macro and applying micro to fights without your macro slipping. Your apm rising isn't the goal, but it's an indicator of your goal, which is effectively macroing and controlling your army off of more than 1 base.
It's fine to try to show low-APM players how to play, but if you have over 40 APM, and are able to play the game normally, treasure your gift, do not deny it.
On August 09 2012 00:19 vesicular wrote: I like this, it reminds me of learning to play an instrument. When doing so, instructors will always put a cap on your speed, even though most people just want to play fast and have fun. The reason of this is simple, if you do not know what you are playing or how to play it at a slower, methodical level, when you ramp up you will hit the wrong notes, cut corners, get off beat, etc.
Perhaps if you have 200 APM you are playing a lovely song with ripping solos. But most people I would imagine are missing notes and sound like they are just flailing half the time. Slowing down can actually benefit musicians and even out weak spots in their play. This has the added benefit of teaching slower players how to play great melodies with the skills they already have before moving onto harder, more complex songs (if you follow the analogy).
The analogy is fine, but it doesn't apply to slowing down APM unless you ALSO slow down the game with it. After all, when you play a song slower, the actual SONG is slower-- you lower it from 120 BPM to 90 BPM or 60 BPM. When you slow down in Sc2, everything still happens at the same speed-- units get built, units attack, timings happen, etc.
The analogy you SHOULD use is that a conductor is conducting a song, and one player in the symphony wants to practice at a slow rate, so he played at Adiago when everyone else is Allegretto. Sure, he hits his fingerings, but he looks and sounds like ass as a result. If you want to practice playing at 40 APM, play the game on Normal or Slow or you LITERALLY won't be able to do the stuff you need to do.
Let me explain more clearly:
All this in blizzard minutes: If you're on 2 bases, constant scv production is about ~7 scvs a minute, and assuming you have synced production between your two OCs, that requires 10 apm (3 times hitting the hotkey for your OC, 7 for scvs). If you have, say, 1 tech lab rax, 2 reactor rax, 1 factory with tech lab, and 1 starport, and you make constantly out of all of them... you need to select your rax and make marines twice per minute, groups of 5 marines, that's 12 apm (2 times hitting the hotkey for your rax, 10 for making marines). you need to select your factory and make a tank once every 45 seconds. That's 2.5 apm ( ~1.3 times hitting the hotkey for your fact, ~1.3 times making a tank). you need to select your starport and make a medivac once every 42 seconds. That's 2.5 apm (~1.3 times hitting the hotkey for your starport, ~1.3 times making a medivac.
Note: if you have rax, fact and starport all on one hotkey, this will increase the required apm slightly. This assumes they're all on different control groups.
Furthermore, you're producing 7 supply of scvs, 10 supply of marines, 4 supply of tanks, and 3 supply of medivacs per minute, which is 24 supply. Including the cost of supply depots, this is quite affordable on 2 bases. however, to make supply depots is pretty apm intensive. Let's say you optimize your apm quite a bit, and make all 3 supply depots at once. That's at least 7 apm (1 to grab 3 scvs, 3 to make 3 depots, 3 to rally them back to minerals). Although you could choose not to rally them back to the minerals, this will generate apm later when you have to do so.
Lastly, mule calldowns happen every 90 seconds. With 2 orbitals, this means an average of 1.3 apm is needed for mule calldowns. We can assume you already have the OC selected for worker production.
With no army control, 2 base macro for terran requires a minimum of 35 APM. This is non-spam APM (selecting unselected units, creating units, and making depots and calling down mules). If you want to control your army in any meaningful fashion, this will cause your apm to go above 35. After 7-8 minutes in the game, when you're on 2 bases, this is the lowest your APM can be without serious macro slippage.
If your games last longer, on average, than about 11 or 12 minutes, and your apm is below 35, this means that your macro is sub-optimal, or you literally don't micro, or some combination of the two.
To play the game at a medium level, you need at least 60 effective apm. Certain styles and units benefit from additional apm more than others do. If your peak effective apm is below 60, unless you are unbelievably bad at Sc2, your speed is what is holding you back.
And really, with a full 60 APM, you only have enough APM to give your army a command every 2 seconds, which is really really not great. You can't kite, splitting of course isn't an option-- but assuming you macro properly you might be able to streamroll weaker opponents anyways.
With 40 APM? You can give your army a command every 12 seconds. You're devastatingly slow.
Now, there's nothing WRONG with having low APM, and you know, even with 40 APM you can make it into Master League if you are a dirty, dirty cheeser. But specifically limiting yourself to 40 APM when you don't need to can do nothing but impede you.
However, APM itself is not a skill-- it is an indicator of a skill, your speed. To overcome low speed, don't try to get higher apm by spamming. Try to get higher apm by having good macro and applying micro to fights without your macro slipping. Your apm rising isn't the goal, but it's an indicator of your goal, which is effectively macroing and controlling your army off of more than 1 base.
It's fine to try to show low-APM players how to play, but if you have over 40 APM, and are able to play the game normally, treasure your gift, do not deny it.
Not quite I think. To hammer the musical methaphor some more:
Going at a slow APM is not like slowing down an orchestra. This would be the case if you're in masters/GM and are attempting to do this but I highly doubt this is the intention. You're not facing Mozart in gold league - at best you're facing the kid who had 3 guitar lessons, walks into a guitar store, turns the amp gain up to 10 and proceeds to shred incomprehensible nonsense at 200bpm while thinking he's as good as Jimmy Page.
Your right that SC2 goes on at the same pace regardless of what you're playing at. Think of it this way then - when you're learning guitar, you may want to jump into some some awesome fast solos. Naturally you don't have any of the skills to play the 200 notes a minute when you're starting out. BUT, if you learn a little music theory, you'll learn that solos will have some notes that are more important than others, notes that stand out from the rest. It would be more beneficial to be able to pick out those key notes, which probably amount to 40 notes a minute, rather than rip away at all the wrong notes at 200 bpm. I promise you that playing 25% of the notes in the "stairway to heaven" solo sounds 100000x better than attempting 100% and butchering it.
I'm hardly in a position to argue the point further as I'm not a very good SC2 player. But I am having a hard time understanding why other people are having such a hard time with this concept. The most important aspect of the game is decision making and as several threads by Llama, filter and other masters players clearly demonstrate, lower league players are god awful in this aspect (all the while denying it, nonetheless). Did everyone forget those videos (made by I forget who) where a masters player built 100% stalkers and a-moved to victory all the way to diamond or something like that? I'm sure the opponents were using 150 apm in stutter stepping marines, bunker rushing, map spamming etc.
On August 09 2012 02:02 caznitch wrote: The most important aspect of the game is decision making and as several threads by Llama, filter and other masters players clearly demonstrate, lower league players are god awful in this aspect (all the while denying it, nonetheless). Did everyone forget those videos (made by I forget who) where a masters player built 100% stalkers and a-moved to victory all the way to diamond or something like that? I'm sure the opponents were using 150 apm in stutter stepping marines, bunker rushing, map spamming etc.
Decision making is one of the least important aspects of Sc2. Certain basic decisions are extremely important, but the mass stalkers guy was trying to show that the ONLY thing that matters is macro mechanics-- he specifically used a strategy that's pretty much terrible in the way it was executed-- stalkers, although they can hit all kinds of units, are really bad against marines, marauders, roaches (if the stalkers are a-moved), marauders, zerglings, immortals, zealots, basically everything. A-moved stalkers are preposterously bad. The very BASIS of the stalker as an effective unit is based on kiting, blinking, etc and this guy did none of that.
Lower league players are bad at decision making, but honestly if they just followed a build order and had good mechanics they wouldn't be lower league players. I know this. I've been there. I used to make 4 rax before OC because I figured delaying my OC would let me get more rax. I'd play entire games without getting gas. But I'll be damned if I didn't mass-marine (no stim!) my way into gold without any legitimate decision-making because if you have enough APM to just macro and a-move, you'll win.
If you think the stalker guy was trying to prove that DECISON-MAKING is the most important aspect of the game at the low level, you are mistaken. Very, very mistaken. Maybe we're talking about different guys. I have no idea how you gathered that from his articles...
The fact of the matter is, 40 APM indicates that your speed is too slow to play this game effectively after 1-base play. If you CAN play at 60 APM, you SHOULD. I'm not even talking about army control-- 40 APM probably wouldn't be enough to even macro on 2 bases, if you're protoss, since warp-ins are APM-intensive.
The most important part of Sc2 is not decision-making, it is macro mechanics. Obviously someone who is terrible at decision making ("hi guys! I'm gonna mass carrier on 1 base!") is gonna lose. But if all they do is make no decisions and mass stalkers, and have solid speed and mechanics?
Diamond.
Edit: of course, if 40 apm is all you're physically capable of, a series like this will be highly useful for you. Not everyone can hit 60+ apm, and I get that. I'm just saying that if you CAN exceed 40 apm, you should.
On August 08 2012 12:06 ahole-surprise wrote: Anybody claiming X league with Y APM should first indicate whether or not they are protoss. This is a very critical detail.
On August 09 2012 02:02 caznitch wrote: The most important aspect of the game is decision making and as several threads by Llama, filter and other masters players clearly demonstrate, lower league players are god awful in this aspect (all the while denying it, nonetheless). Did everyone forget those videos (made by I forget who) where a masters player built 100% stalkers and a-moved to victory all the way to diamond or something like that? I'm sure the opponents were using 150 apm in stutter stepping marines, bunker rushing, map spamming etc.
Decision making is one of the least important aspects of Sc2. Certain basic decisions are extremely important, but the mass stalkers guy was trying to show that the ONLY thing that matters is macro mechanics-- he specifically used a strategy that's pretty much terrible in the way it was executed-- stalkers, although they can hit all kinds of units, are really bad against marines, marauders, roaches (if the stalkers are a-moved), marauders, zerglings, immortals, zealots, basically everything. A-moved stalkers are preposterously bad. The very BASIS of the stalker as an effective unit is based on kiting, blinking, etc and this guy did none of that.
Lower league players are bad at decision making, but honestly if they just followed a build order and had good mechanics they wouldn't be lower league players. I know this. I've been there. I used to make 4 rax before OC because I figured delaying my OC would let me get more rax. I'd play entire games without getting gas. But I'll be damned if I didn't mass-marine (no stim!) my way into gold without any legitimate decision-making because if you have enough APM to just macro and a-move, you'll win.
If you think the stalker guy was trying to prove that DECISON-MAKING is the most important aspect of the game at the low level, you are mistaken. Very, very mistaken. Maybe we're talking about different guys. I have no idea how you gathered that from his articles...
The fact of the matter is, 40 APM indicates that your speed is too slow to play this game effectively after 1-base play. If you CAN play at 60 APM, you SHOULD. I'm not even talking about army control-- 40 APM probably wouldn't be enough to even macro on 2 bases, if you're protoss, since warp-ins are APM-intensive.
The most important part of Sc2 is not decision-making, it is macro mechanics. Obviously someone who is terrible at decision making ("hi guys! I'm gonna mass carrier on 1 base!") is gonna lose. But if all they do is make no decisions and mass stalkers, and have solid speed and mechanics?
Diamond.
Sorry - I did misstate that and I do agree with everything you're saying. I was trying to argue that macro-mechanics is decision making (your deciding to focus on a very limited but highly beneficial thing - macro) but that's just semantics. I think the only take away I'd add is that most people think they can play at "X" apm but would be better off taking a breath and slowing down. I only theoretically know this as most people think they can do all sorts of things faster and better than reality shows.
On August 09 2012 02:02 caznitch wrote: The most important aspect of the game is decision making and as several threads by Llama, filter and other masters players clearly demonstrate, lower league players are god awful in this aspect (all the while denying it, nonetheless). Did everyone forget those videos (made by I forget who) where a masters player built 100% stalkers and a-moved to victory all the way to diamond or something like that? I'm sure the opponents were using 150 apm in stutter stepping marines, bunker rushing, map spamming etc.
Decision making is one of the least important aspects of Sc2. Certain basic decisions are extremely important, but the mass stalkers guy was trying to show that the ONLY thing that matters is macro mechanics-- he specifically used a strategy that's pretty much terrible in the way it was executed-- stalkers, although they can hit all kinds of units, are really bad against marines, marauders, roaches (if the stalkers are a-moved), marauders, zerglings, immortals, zealots, basically everything. A-moved stalkers are preposterously bad. The very BASIS of the stalker as an effective unit is based on kiting, blinking, etc and this guy did none of that.
Lower league players are bad at decision making, but honestly if they just followed a build order and had good mechanics they wouldn't be lower league players. I know this. I've been there. I used to make 4 rax before OC because I figured delaying my OC would let me get more rax. I'd play entire games without getting gas. But I'll be damned if I didn't mass-marine (no stim!) my way into gold without any legitimate decision-making because if you have enough APM to just macro and a-move, you'll win.
If you think the stalker guy was trying to prove that DECISON-MAKING is the most important aspect of the game at the low level, you are mistaken. Very, very mistaken. Maybe we're talking about different guys. I have no idea how you gathered that from his articles...
The fact of the matter is, 40 APM indicates that your speed is too slow to play this game effectively after 1-base play. If you CAN play at 60 APM, you SHOULD. I'm not even talking about army control-- 40 APM probably wouldn't be enough to even macro on 2 bases, if you're protoss, since warp-ins are APM-intensive.
The most important part of Sc2 is not decision-making, it is macro mechanics. Obviously someone who is terrible at decision making ("hi guys! I'm gonna mass carrier on 1 base!") is gonna lose. But if all they do is make no decisions and mass stalkers, and have solid speed and mechanics?
Diamond.
Sorry - I did misstate that and I do agree with everything you're saying. I was trying to argue that macro-mechanics is decision making (your deciding to focus on a very limited but highly beneficial thing - macro) but that's just semantics. I think the only take away I'd add is that most people think they can play at "X" apm but would be better off taking a breath and slowing down. I only theoretically know this as most people think they can do all sorts of things faster and better than reality shows.
I'm not focusing on macro-mechanics specifically, I'm just using them as an example. You need to be able to macro to play, and with 40 peak APM, you literally lack the speed to macro on 2 bases and do... well, basically anything else. The focus on macro-mechanics is because you brought up the stalker guy-- that's HIS focus. I'm just pointing it out.
Also, the idea that macro-mechanics (hitting injects, using WG cooldowns, etc) is decision-making strikes me as preposterous. If your ability to do your macro cycle is decision-making, why don't people just decide to have good macro? It's clearly a mechanical thing, where people are limited not by what they want, but by what they're capable of.
If we're talking about pointless spam, or people trying to things they can't do and playing worse as a result, of course that should be stopped. I don't think someone spamming their way up to 200 raw APM when they have 40 eAPM is going to help them much. They should probably focus on getting up their speed, not some arbitrary "apm" number.
Really, though, APM is just a tool we use to try to measure speed, which is a player's ability to get things done. Someone who doesn't have enough speed to do what they want should try to increase their speed. If someone thinks they're faster than they are, they'll probably realize pretty quickly that they're not. APM is just a number, speed is the ability to get things done, and if you can't split marines and macro at the same time, you can't do it, no matter what the number at the corner of your screen says.
If someone wants to do cool flashy micro tricks, that's their prerogative. I won't tell them to slow down if it interrupts their macro, though-- I'll just tell them that they shouldn't interrupt their macro for it. And if they're trying to do high-apm play and are failing, they know it. Oh, they know it. In a way, I'd encourage people to push the boundaries of their speed and their mechanics. Any decision-making outside of very basic stuff isn't super necessary until the high level.
Tell mw how it is possible to hold a terran who is doing a medivac drop on 4 locations at once with stim and micro when you get 40 apm. I honestly cannot see it being held.
@ Blazinghand, the mass stalker into diamon thingy was 2 years ago right? I'm having a hard time believing the skill level in the diamond league has not increased enough to stop that from being viable.
I've just calculated the SQ of all my games since my 2 week break and I have an average SQ of 77 which is high masters according to research done 1 year (so not 2 years) ago. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266019)
On August 09 2012 02:32 Highwinds wrote: Tell mw how it is possible to hold a terran who is doing a medivac drop on 4 locations at once with stim and micro when you get 40 apm. I honestly cannot see it being held.
1) I don't think that's the point of this exercise, which is more about dealing with specific timings and helping low-apm players. 2) if you're protoss, and you have 40 apm and you know it, you should be using cannons near your tech structures and mineral lines and supplement with zealot warpins to deal with these drops. If you're zerg, a few crawlers at each base will do (especially since with your low APM your queens will have energy for transfuse. If you're terran, sensor towers, turrets and vikings should prevent any of this nonsense, but using p forts or defensive bunkers also works. Although these solutions wouldn't be optimal for a high-APM player, a low APM player would be well-advised to use them.
Also, 4 locations? What if you're on 2 bases? >.>
On August 09 2012 02:34 Bojas wrote: @ Blazinghand, the mass stalker into diamon thingy was 2 years ago right? I'm having a hard time believing the skill level in the diamond league has not increased enough to stop that from being viable.
I've just calculated the SQ of all my games since my 2 week break and I have an average SQ of 77 which is high masters according to research done 1 year (so not 2 years) ago. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266019)
Man, ok I didn't even bring that up, the other guy brought that up claiming the player's GOAL was to show that DECISION-MAKING was king, I'm not saying he could still do it today, I'm saying that his GOAL was to show that MECHANICS are king. The other guy just didn't understand what the stalker guy was doing.
Also, although the level of play has risen, I'm sure you can easily bullshit your way into Diamond League with some build or another just by executing it well. such is the nature of the game. The level of play hasn't risen that much. I don't know about SQ or about other generated statistics, but I can tell you that I regularly play against people with crap-bad macro in Master League, and I too have crap-bad macro, even as a macro-oriented player. People just aren't that good at Sc2, no matter what they think. It's a sad fact. Especially below Master League.
On August 09 2012 02:02 caznitch wrote: The most important aspect of the game is decision making and as several threads by Llama, filter and other masters players clearly demonstrate, lower league players are god awful in this aspect (all the while denying it, nonetheless). Did everyone forget those videos (made by I forget who) where a masters player built 100% stalkers and a-moved to victory all the way to diamond or something like that? I'm sure the opponents were using 150 apm in stutter stepping marines, bunker rushing, map spamming etc.
Decision making is one of the least important aspects of Sc2. Certain basic decisions are extremely important, but the mass stalkers guy was trying to show that the ONLY thing that matters is macro mechanics-- he specifically used a strategy that's pretty much terrible in the way it was executed-- stalkers, although they can hit all kinds of units, are really bad against marines, marauders, roaches (if the stalkers are a-moved), marauders, zerglings, immortals, zealots, basically everything. A-moved stalkers are preposterously bad. The very BASIS of the stalker as an effective unit is based on kiting, blinking, etc and this guy did none of that.
Lower league players are bad at decision making, but honestly if they just followed a build order and had good mechanics they wouldn't be lower league players. I know this. I've been there. I used to make 4 rax before OC because I figured delaying my OC would let me get more rax. I'd play entire games without getting gas. But I'll be damned if I didn't mass-marine (no stim!) my way into gold without any legitimate decision-making because if you have enough APM to just macro and a-move, you'll win.
If you think the stalker guy was trying to prove that DECISON-MAKING is the most important aspect of the game at the low level, you are mistaken. Very, very mistaken. Maybe we're talking about different guys. I have no idea how you gathered that from his articles...
The fact of the matter is, 40 APM indicates that your speed is too slow to play this game effectively after 1-base play. If you CAN play at 60 APM, you SHOULD. I'm not even talking about army control-- 40 APM probably wouldn't be enough to even macro on 2 bases, if you're protoss, since warp-ins are APM-intensive.
The most important part of Sc2 is not decision-making, it is macro mechanics. Obviously someone who is terrible at decision making ("hi guys! I'm gonna mass carrier on 1 base!") is gonna lose. But if all they do is make no decisions and mass stalkers, and have solid speed and mechanics?
Diamond.
Edit: of course, if 40 apm is all you're physically capable of, a series like this will be highly useful for you. Not everyone can hit 60+ apm, and I get that. I'm just saying that if you CAN exceed 40 apm, you should.
This will give you a clear understanding of how much I value macro over everything else. I can also try to explain right here what I'm trying to bring with this series and hopefully settle the debate.
I love the analogy that caznitch brings up with the guitar solo. In a way I like to think of this as Guitar Hero on Easy-Medium Mode. The song never changes pace, but the number of buttons you hit does as you move in difficulty. There are some players who mash 500 buttons a minute but suck because they are just flailing randomly and never learning any good patterns or what buttons are key buttons. What you can do then instead is go to easy-medium mode and play the song with less buttons to be pressed (yet these are important buttons because you can still get the gist of the song from them). Now I know that guitar hero the game will fill in the rest of the song and pretend ur playing more buttons, but if you grabbed a real guitar and player a solo but only the most important notes (maybe take out bends and such as well to simplify it), you could play it better than if you tried to play every single note and do every technique possible.
Coming back to Starcraft, you made a great point earlier on about how it takes 35apm on 2 bases just to macro, which only leaves 5apm for army movement. I'm less trying to showcase how you can constantly stay on 40apm with EVERYTHING going on (macro, micro, etc), but more trying to showcase that most situations can be handled with 40apm or less and that most people overcommit their apm to certain situations because they do not understand the important decisions to be made.
Let's say there is a sentry immortal push coming at my front. I'm going to try and prove that I can use roughly 40apm to defend this engagement (thus I will be moving slowly and showing flanking and unit composition and etc). If I get a spike up to 70apm because I went SVVRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, I'm probably not going to count that as more than 1apm in my books because truly it's only 2-4 actions besides the spam of building roaches which is mindless yet counts for apm. The real action is "Select hatches, select larva, build overlords, build roaches until larva are gone." That's the whole process and even someone in bronze with an avg of 15apm can spike up their apm by spamming the R button for roach.
Going back to my example with getting bunker rushed, I could list example actions right now in a theoretical view Action 1: Select ~8 drones from mineral line at main Action 2: Press and hold shift Action 3: right click scv building bunker Action 4: left click 2 workers to deselect them so you're left with 6 Action 5: move command those drones towards marine Action 6: select hatchery Action 7: build queen 1 Action 8: select other hatchery Action 9: build queen 2 Action 10: build 2x pairs of lings Action 11: select drones attacking marine Action 12: micro back hurt drone to natural mineral line Action 13: select drones attacking scv Action 14: if it's dead, tell them to attack bunker, if another scv came, shift right click him Action 15: etc...
Clearly something like "build 2x pair of lings" is more than one action in the apm counter, but I count that as 1 action because it's 1 decision that is being made and once you start that decision it will only take a few tenths of a second for you to finish it.
I really do appreciate the depth that you are taking this though to figure out the purpose and understand the reasoning.
On August 09 2012 02:32 Highwinds wrote: Tell mw how it is possible to hold a terran who is doing a medivac drop on 4 locations at once with stim and micro when you get 40 apm. I honestly cannot see it being held.
1) I don't think that's the point of this exercise, which is more about dealing with specific timings and helping low-apm players. 2) if you're protoss, and you have 40 apm and you know it, you should be using cannons near your tech structures and mineral lines and supplement with zealot warpins to deal with these drops. If you're zerg, a few crawlers at each base will do (especially since with your low APM your queens will have energy for transfuse. If you're terran, sensor towers, turrets and vikings should prevent any of this nonsense, but using p forts or defensive bunkers also works. Although these solutions wouldn't be optimal for a high-APM player, a low APM player would be well-advised to use them.
Also, 4 locations? What if you're on 2 bases? >.>
Im the terran in this situation. I try to execute a drop on the main. Natural. And tech. and if a 3rd exists I drop a 3rd if not then meh. I time it so it's the same time. Im master league and I win a lot of games straight up from people who can't hold it with 100 APM. I guess I misunderstood the point of this as I was taking it as you can hold anything and win anything with 40 APM so that is my mistake for misunderstanding.
I understand the reasoning behind teaching how to hold off certain timings and attacks with low APM, and going into what specific actions need to be taken is indeed a worthy goal. I don't think you don't value macro, I was just pointing out to that guy that he clearly missed the basic goal of what stalker guy was trying to prove-- stalker guy is not super relevant to this conversation.
I don't think that intentionally limiting your APM is a helpful tactic, however. I like my symphony analogy and I think it works better than a guitar hero analogy, because the game will not slow down for you. 40 APM is a poor choice of APM to slow down to, because 40 APM is one input per 1.5 seconds, and is just far too slow for anyone to get anything done reasonably. Yes, if someone is spamming up to 200 APM and has no effective APM, they're bad, but that's not a problem with the person having too much speed, it's a problem because APM does not equal speed. Telling the guy to play slower is probably right, but telling him to cap himself down to 40 APM hugely hamstrings him.
The fact of the matter is, you want to increase a guy's speed. You see that his speed is slow even though he has 200 APM, but the solution isn't to go the other way and have 40 APM. Just focus on getting things done, and if the guy wants to spam in between his actions-- that's fine! But don't put a cap on his speed. Don't tell him to be so slow he can barely operate.
Guides with specifics on how to beat certain attacks and timings with minimal APM is great. A philosophy of drastically reducing APM below what is needed to effectively play the game in some belief it will increase your speed is something I fundamentally disagree with. Is wasted APM wasted? Yes. But limiting yourself to 40 APM will hurt your speed as much as spending all your time selecting your marine over and over again, if not more.
On August 09 2012 02:32 Highwinds wrote: Tell mw how it is possible to hold a terran who is doing a medivac drop on 4 locations at once with stim and micro when you get 40 apm. I honestly cannot see it being held.
1) I don't think that's the point of this exercise, which is more about dealing with specific timings and helping low-apm players. 2) if you're protoss, and you have 40 apm and you know it, you should be using cannons near your tech structures and mineral lines and supplement with zealot warpins to deal with these drops. If you're zerg, a few crawlers at each base will do (especially since with your low APM your queens will have energy for transfuse. If you're terran, sensor towers, turrets and vikings should prevent any of this nonsense, but using p forts or defensive bunkers also works. Although these solutions wouldn't be optimal for a high-APM player, a low APM player would be well-advised to use them.
Also, 4 locations? What if you're on 2 bases? >.>
Im the terran in this situation. I try to execute a drop on the main. Natural. And tech. and if a 3rd exists I drop a 3rd if not then meh. I time it so it's the same time. Im master league and I win a lot of games straight up from people who can't hold it with 100 APM. I guess I misunderstood the point of this as I was taking it as you can hold anything and win anything with 40 APM so that is my mistake for misunderstanding.
False. If you're the terran, you have 40 APM, so you don't even try to do this. You all in on one base with marine/scv, or with a 1/1/1, or a thor rush or stim rush, and you win. Or, you practice and get faster, then go for 2-base play.
Also, given that you literally you said "how is it possible to hold a terran who is doing a medivac drop" I think it's utterly unambiguous that you were asking how to HOLD against the drop, and since I explained it, you're backtracking. Nice try.
Also, the purpose of this is to provide guides to holding certain attacks with low APM. I disagree with the philosophy, though.
On August 09 2012 02:58 Blazinghand wrote: I understand the reasoning behind teaching how to hold off certain timings and attacks with low APM, and going into what specific actions need to be taken is indeed a worthy goal. I don't think you don't value macro, I was just pointing out to that guy that he clearly missed the basic goal of what stalker guy was trying to prove-- stalker guy is not super relevant to this conversation.
I don't think that intentionally limiting your APM is a helpful tactic, however. I like my symphony analogy and I think it works better than a guitar hero analogy, because the game will not slow down for you. 40 APM is a poor choice of APM to slow down to, because 40 APM is one input per 1.5 seconds, and is just far too slow for anyone to get anything done reasonably. Yes, if someone is spamming up to 200 APM and has no effective APM, they're bad, but that's not a problem with the person having too much speed, it's a problem because APM does not equal speed. Telling the guy to play slower is probably right, but telling him to cap himself down to 40 APM hugely hamstrings him.
The fact of the matter is, you want to increase a guy's speed. You see that his speed is slow even though he has 200 APM, but the solution isn't to go the other way and have 40 APM. Just focus on getting things done, and if the guy wants to spam in between his actions-- that's fine! But don't put a cap on his speed. Don't tell him to be so slow he can barely operate.
Guides with specifics on how to beat certain attacks and timings with minimal APM is great. A philosophy of drastically reducing APM below what is needed to effectively play the game in some belief it will increase your speed is something I fundamentally disagree with. Is wasted APM wasted? Yes. But limiting yourself to 40 APM will hurt your speed as much as spending all your time selecting your marine over and over again, if not more.
Ignore APM; acquire speed.
I'm just going to ask because I'm not sure if it's clear
do you think I'm coaching other people to do this for the videos and telling them to slow down to 40apm?
I feel like a few people think that is so, and so I'll have to go clear up the OP if that's true.
I'm not coaching other people to do this, rather I'm getting masters players (my friends) to do timings against ME and then I hold it off with 40apm while I explain the importance of each action.
The biggest thing is I'm not trying to cap anybody at 40apm. I'm trying to say, "look, I held this with 40apm, now you can hold it with all of your apm and have more to do other stuff with as well." Even if 40apm isn't always optimal, I'm trying to help people who lose or fall severely behind because they cannot get past a situation no matter how many actions they take (and I'm trying to show them in a slowed down version hence the 40apm which actions are best to think about first)
I don't think you're telling people to cap their APM (in fact you state you're just simplifying high-apm situations so people can understand which APMs are the most important), but I think people are promoting that in this thread. The people with whom I disagree the most are vesicular and caznitch, both of whom seem to think that reducing your APM is good with their music analogies.
On August 09 2012 03:15 Blazinghand wrote: I don't think you're telling people to cap their APM (in fact you state you're just simplifying high-apm situations so people can understand which APMs are the most important), but I think people are promoting that in this thread. The people with whom I disagree the most are vesicular and caznitch, both of whom seem to think that reducing your APM is good with their music analogies.
I play like a mad man at 60-80 apm, and slowing things down for me (not necessarily to 40 apm - the number was chosen by Mr. Llamma to accommodate the majority of players as he mentioned) helps me understand what I'm doing and why. I don;t think anyone should think to themselves, " I should do "x" because its the right thing to do... but I shouldn't because that would get my apm too high". What I'm hoping to get from these videos is " Oh... "x" is happening. I usually spam all my keys, gather my army, miss the upgrade i should be getting and then die because I handled it wrong. If I didn't die I probably was microing away from a zealot and missed a production cycle. I'm hoping Llama can demonstrate how to deal with "x", so next time it happens I can calm down execute what he did, all the while keeping up my macro - which I feel is a given. It's easy to say "always keep your macro up" but no one short of GM's (if them even) do that. I have the "macro" mantra in my head when I play, but things change when you see a drop in your main, and you pee a little bit in your pants because you don't know what to do, so you do too much and die.
Maybe these videos aren't intended for someone with really high apm, like yourself maybe. Being old and only being able to play a couple game before work leaves me somewhat hindered in that category.
I can't think of any subject that is effectively taught by getting people to do things quickly but wrong. As I've mentioned before, there's a disparity with what people think they're comfortable with, or good with, and what they actually are good with.
On August 09 2012 03:15 Blazinghand wrote: I don't think you're telling people to cap their APM (in fact you state you're just simplifying high-apm situations so people can understand which APMs are the most important), but I think people are promoting that in this thread. The people with whom I disagree the most are vesicular and caznitch, both of whom seem to think that reducing your APM is good with their music analogies.
I play like a mad man at 60-80 apm, and slowing things down for me (not necessarily to 40 apm - the number was chosen by Mr. Llamma to accommodate the majority of players as he mentioned) helps me understand what I'm doing and why. I don;t think anyone should think to themselves, " I should do "x" because its the right thing to do... but I shouldn't because that would get my apm too high". What I'm hoping to get from these videos is " Oh... "x" is happening. I usually spam all my keys, gather my army, miss the upgrade i should be getting and then die because I handled it wrong. If I didn't die I probably was microing away from a zealot and missed a production cycle. I'm hoping Llama can demonstrate how to deal with "x", so next time it happens I can calm down execute what he did, all the while keeping up my macro - which I feel is a given. It's easy to say "always keep your macro up" but no one short of GM's (if them even) do that. I have the "macro" mantra in my head when I play, but things change when you see a drop in your main, and you pee a little bit in your pants because you don't know what to do, so you do too much and die.
Maybe these videos aren't intended for someone with really high apm, like yourself maybe. Being old and only being able to play a couple game before work leaves me somewhat hindered in that category.
I can't think of any subject that is effectively taught by getting people to do things quickly but wrong. As I've mentioned before, there's a disparity with what people think they're comfortable with, or good with, and what they actually are good with.
" I'm hoping Llama can demonstrate how to deal with "x", so next time it happens I can calm down execute what he did, all the while keeping up my macro"
If you learn that, I will be happy and the series will be worth it
First off, I'm really glad you don't come across as a crusader against the evil known as APM spam. That would be bad. Now you're taking 40 apm as the continuum without giivng new players a reason to pursue higher APM. Why not encourage players to not count rising to 300 apm as a necessary step to being better, but getting to 150 comfortable apm as something attainable and helpful?
It is for good reason that the best mechanics guide on the site comes with the subtext, "Better known as the part of play that gets glossed over" We're not talking about limping along with 40 apm and getting that plat or diamond league (entirely doable). We're talking about strategy development hand-in-hand with hand speed and accuracy development. Re-read that guide if you have once. A goal with a mechanics-based or mechanics-inclusive learning process is to have a natural progression to a quick macro cycle (defined in previous link). This macro cycle is core to all the races' midgames and lategames.
Now, I want to address your entirely correct talk about using APM ineffectively. Some novice player should not focus on denying mining from their opponent with a scouting probe, blocking incoming placed buildings, or harassing enemy workers. So when you're bronze or silver, send your scouting worker to ONLY see where they spawned and (if they let you in) if they took a gas. Secondarily, if base is oddly empty, think proxy etc etc.Rally point, remark on the status of gas (but do nothing with this information, just developing habits here), and leave. Perfectly normal, great stage of development. I'd rather have players start developing good habits in bronze/silver league ( I send a worker to find their base, presence of in-base infrastructure, and gas at x supply) than suddenly have to twist their head around new things every league upgrade.
This is coming from a former masters Protoss coach, where I would have 5 concurrent students with weekly paid training. I understand the point of view that gives different macro training at lower leagues, but disagree that it is the more effective or preferred approach.
It wont help with decision making. In boxing when you start off you learn the jab, when that becomes automatic then you learn the straight, then combos, then defence etc. I think the same applies to starcraft, you should be aiming for automation, not low apm. First you make scv automatically, when that happens then cycle buildings for macro, then spread creep etc. When this becomes automatic you wont have your mind focused on it, which means you can focus more on decision making and tactical thinking. Also as more of your game becomes automated your apm/apm efficiency will increase naturally. I think capping it wont help at all, because now you're thinking more about how to use apm efficiently than about the decision making aspects of the game.
I feel like a lot of APM gets wasted when you limit yourself to such a low amount; I mean, effective macro when you can make 15 Marines at a time is what, 25 APM gone, just hitting A.
Although, I feel like Sjow illustrated you can win at any level with reasonable APM (I think he played sub 100 APM even while he was winning tournaments).
On August 09 2012 13:45 trGKakarot wrote: I feel like a lot of APM gets wasted when you limit yourself to such a low amount; I mean, effective macro when you can make 15 Marines at a time is what, 25 APM gone, just hitting A.
Although, I feel like Sjow illustrated you can win at any level with reasonable APM (I think he played sub 100 APM even while he was winning tournaments).
On August 09 2012 13:31 We Are Here wrote: It wont help with decision making. In boxing when you start off you learn the jab, when that becomes automatic then you learn the straight, then combos, then defence etc. I think the same applies to starcraft, you should be aiming for automation, not low apm. First you make scv automatically, when that happens then cycle buildings for macro, then spread creep etc. When this becomes automatic you wont have your mind focused on it, which means you can focus more on decision making and tactical thinking. Also as more of your game becomes automated your apm/apm efficiency will increase naturally. I think capping it wont help at all, because now you're thinking more about how to use apm efficiently than about the decision making aspects of the game.
I am going to simply refer you to the questions answers portion of my topic since I have addressed your questions before. I will also change the OP a bit more because people seem to still be misunderstanding that I'm not saying you need to limit your APM, I'm trying to prove that it can be done in less APM than you think and thus you can spend more time elsewhere or doing other things. Plus I'm slowing it down so you can watch and see the important things and then add your own apm on top of that.
I think this is a good idea, not because you shouldn´t try to play faster if you can but because of, as far as I understand, to sort out a set of the most important decisions to make in specific situations. Sure, having 200 apm is sweet statistics, but if you make the wrong choice while clicking away - the only difference is that you will drive over the cliff to certain death in 200km/h instead of 40...
Personally my average apm is 80-ish, but I would really like to learn how to prioritize in engagements. My macro starts to feel better with no or few supply blocks and keeping my money low, often I got a food lead about 5-20 supply when I engage (platinum lvl terran btw). And then I often lose due to bad decision making and me getting stressed about how to execute more complicated unit control.
So, this is my suggestion for a topic of this series would be...
Name: Meistrich Race: Terran (plat lvl) Matchup: TvP Situation: Micro against a P "deathball"
Keep up the good work, thank you for making the SC2 community a most vibrant, pleasant experience!
I really love this idea, I still feel people are missing the point of this guide.
MrLLama is stating, he will show people how to use 40apm effectively to hold off situations, now I think people are mistaking this as that he will have his apm CONSISTENTLY around 40apm. This isn't what he is suggesting, he saying, that everybody from the lowest to highest has spikes of apm, just as you go up they get higher and higher.
Example:
Bronze league player has an apm of 30ish he spikes to 40. for everyone higher this wouldn't even register as a spike, but for the bronze player this is a huge spike, he is doing a 3rd more things.
Masters league apm of 100 spikes to 200, this is alot more obvious cos of the vast difference. To the master league player aswell when he watches the replay, he will find things he still could have done better, but when you get to a certain level, you start to realise your own mistakes and understand and improve yourself. and your apm snowballs from here.
The bronze league player, this will take exponentially longer to learn to do this, as there are FUNDAMENTALS he hasn't got right yet, which is limiting him to do anything further. if he has only 3 rax, when a masters has 8 or 9, then sure your apm will be 3 times as much just re-producing. and why doesn't he have as many, he didn't have as many scv's to build them, and it all filters back.
Mrllama, is I think suggesting he will probably have his apm below 40 and it will spike above when in engagements, not to the point that it shows he's actually a master player, but enough that anyone can do it. And hold off whatever he needs to hold off, and again this is where i think everyone is mistaking what he means, as his title should probably read, learning strats/mechanics-for people who have less than 40apm!
On August 10 2012 01:31 Emporium wrote: I really love this idea, I still feel people are missing the point of this guide.
MrLLama is stating, he will show people how to use 40apm effectively to hold off situations, now I think people are mistaking this as that he will have his apm CONSISTENTLY around 40apm. This isn't what he is suggesting, he saying, that everybody from the lowest to highest has spikes of apm, just as you go up they get higher and higher.
Example:
Bronze league player has an apm of 30ish he spikes to 40. for everyone higher this wouldn't even register as a spike, but for the bronze player this is a huge spike, he is doing a 3rd more things.
Masters league apm of 100 spikes to 200, this is alot more obvious cos of the vast difference. To the master league player aswell when he watches the replay, he will find things he still could have done better, but when you get to a certain level, you start to realise your own mistakes and understand and improve yourself. and your apm snowballs from here.
The bronze league player, this will take exponentially longer to learn to do this, as there are FUNDAMENTALS he hasn't got right yet, which is limiting him to do anything further. if he has only 3 rax, when a masters has 8 or 9, then sure your apm will be 3 times as much just re-producing. and why doesn't he have as many, he didn't have as many scv's to build them, and it all filters back.
Mrllama, is I think suggesting he will probably have his apm below 40 and it will spike above when in engagements, not to the point that it shows he's actually a master player, but enough that anyone can do it. And hold off whatever he needs to hold off, and again this is where i think everyone is mistaking what he means, as his title should probably read, learning strats/mechanics-for people who have less than 40apm!
This is partially true
I'm going to try and maintain my apm around 40 as best as I can, but I'm going to use my own apm counter as opposed to the game's. In game it may say I have 60apm at one point because I built 20 roaches, but I'm going to still count that to be around 40apm because the act of building roaches is 1 decision and thus I consider it to be really only 1-2 apm.
I'm going to avoid hitting my usual 200-300apm spikes though and really if I do spike I'd like to stay under 80 as anything higher than that and I'm starting to get away from the point of this series
On August 09 2012 02:34 Bojas wrote: @ Blazinghand, the mass stalker into diamon thingy was 2 years ago right? I'm having a hard time believing the skill level in the diamond league has not increased enough to stop that from being viable.
I've just calculated the SQ of all my games since my 2 week break and I have an average SQ of 77 which is high masters according to research done 1 year (so not 2 years) ago. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266019)
Getting into diamond is the easy part. Im almost certain i could break diamond using nothing but probes, stalkers, observers, etc outside of a few exceptions, i hit masters on ladder and yet people still float into the 1k+ unspent resources before maxing extremely often, and/or have big inefficiencies in expand timings, upgrades etc, tech that is delayed for no reason whatsoever with no benefit, just general bad play. Masters on the other hand (being top 2% instead of top 20% and thus a whole other game) id agree it would be extremely difficult without doing crazy all ins, though if you wanted to go down that route, im sure you could do it with blink all ins in all three matchups.
In terms of SQ, i can max with around 110 as zerg, 90 with protoss vs very hard AI (it is biased against protoss at the very high end of the scale, the toss game was 73 workers over 3 base, 12 min third) but obviously it is notably lower (and occasionally destroyed) in the average ladder game where you have to put a lot more attention into scouting, thinking about what your opponent is and could/could not be doing, many timings etc, but in general, if you have 77sq you probably have a bunch of room to improve on your stalker making, and there is plenty of micro, splitting up, timings, awareness of tiny details etc that you can pick up to bridge you into diamond or masters with pure stalkers if you really wanted to take it that way IMO. I find SQ with protoss to be significantly lower at lower worker counts, 1/2 base all ins if you are extremely tight you have little reason to be below 100 which is a massive gap from high 70's.
it's ZvZ defending a 2 hatch early ling all in, followed by the transition into ling/bling all in
once again just to note, I am trying to keep my apm at 40 or below for a majority of the game (not really counting all of the spam to make units since that spikes it up) so it's not going to be optimal play. The reason I do this is because I want to show you how you can still hold something and win even with only a few clicks. So yes when he sends in 4 banelings I could send 1-2 lings per bane to go attack each individual one, but that is more APM than a lot of people have so instead I just send a few banes over to blow up, let my queen and a few lings tank some of the damage, and then save the majority of my stuff so I can still be fine without using too much APM.
hope you enjoy, feedback is appreciated!
btw, it was originally supposed to be live but I had to do it over the replay instead. which do you prefer? Live you can see my mouse move which could be helpful but replay you can see apm and I can have more time to describe everything.
I greatly appreciate these tips. I don't have that great of APM/mouse precision (I like to think im above average) so I'm looking forward to putting these tricks to use.
On August 12 2012 06:23 Murtag wrote: I greatly appreciate these tips. I don't have that great of APM/mouse precision (I like to think im above average) so I'm looking forward to putting these tricks to use.
Glad I can be of help!
If you have any specific problems fill out the example form and I'll see what I can do
So I watched the video and at the start you mention "decisions per minute" which is basically why my APM is low. When I have someone shouting what to do at me I literally over double my APM, but alone even if it takes less than a second between each planned action to decide on the next one, that's 40 apm right there.
What I found watching your video though is whilst you highlighted well that you can play with low APM and you did explain the game well including some useful advice for general play, you didn't follow through on the decisions per minute theme and essentially I learnt nothing more than a player with not so great APM could make it to Masters league (with regards playing with low APM anyway). I don't even know if it's possible to focus on "thinking correctly" for increased Decisions Per Minute but it seems like that and explaining hotkeys would go much further towards helping those with low APM use their actions more efficiently and so play better.
I don't know if this feedback is useful at all, but I hope it was.
On August 13 2012 23:35 Iyerbeth wrote: So I watched the video and at the start you mention "decisions per minute" which is basically why my APM is low. When I have someone shouting what to do at me I literally over double my APM, but alone even if it takes less than a second between each planned action to decide on the next one, that's 40 apm right there.
What I found watching your video though is whilst you highlighted well that you can play with low APM and you did explain the game well including some useful advice for general play, you didn't follow through on the decisions per minute theme and essentially I learnt nothing more than a player with not so great APM could make it to Masters league (with regards playing with low APM anyway). I don't even know if it's possible to focus on "thinking correctly" for increased Decisions Per Minute but it seems like that and explaining hotkeys would go much further towards helping those with low APM use their actions more efficiently and so play better.
I don't know if this feedback is useful at all, but I hope it was.
This feedback is EXTREMELY useful to me.
it was my first video and I was trying to feel it out, but I have a couple more coming now.
I'll be getting more than zerg videos up btw, I'm just doing zerg to start while I get the hang of this.
I have another video I'll upload here soon and I'll try to incorporate your advice. Thanks again.
On August 13 2012 23:13 caznitch wrote: Great video! Was helpful seeing you keep your cool even though I don't play zerg. As far as the replay goes - is it on the "player cam" mode?
Yeah I'm putting it on player cam most of the time so you can see where I'm looking.
I have a couple of TvP requests if you do Terran too:
Your Build: Standard 1 rax expo into 3 rax etc. His Build: Blink Stalker All-in Specific Map?: Preferably Antiga Shipyard (don't mind Cloud Kingdom, Shakuras Plateau or Condemned Ridge though). Replay: http://ggtracker.com/matches/385093 Comments: I feel like there's lots I could have done to hold this. e.g. Taken the oppurtunity to snipe his obs (he was pretty careless with it, hadn't left some SCVs doing nothing in my base (me being careless), perhaps added 2 more barracks + tech labs on the low ground early on, or maybe started seige tanks. But I have no idea what the best way is, or how best to do things / spend my limited apm in this situation. So I'd love to see a game done with masters players and the decisions explained.
Your Build: Standard 1 rax expo into 3 rax etc. His Build: 2 base Colossus / Stalker all-in Specific Map?: Any really. Replays: http://ggtracker.com/matches/385139 , http://ggtracker.com/matches/385140 Comments: I don't think I've ever managed to hold this sort of push. In the second replay, I got supply blocked a lot, and my upgrades were late (probably could have been maxed out), but the fight is so not close that I don't think it would have mattered.
I have a couple of TvP requests if you do Terran too:
Your Build: Standard 1 rax expo into 3 rax etc. His Build: Blink Stalker All-in Specific Map?: Preferably Antiga Shipyard (don't mind Cloud Kingdom, Shakuras Plateau or Condemned Ridge though). Replay: http://ggtracker.com/matches/385093 Comments: I feel like there's lots I could have done to hold this. e.g. Taken the oppurtunity to snipe his obs (he was pretty careless with it, hadn't left some SCVs doing nothing in my base (me being careless), perhaps added 2 more barracks + tech labs on the low ground early on, or maybe started seige tanks. But I have no idea what the best way is, or how best to do things / spend my limited apm in this situation. So I'd love to see a game done with masters players and the decisions explained.
Your Build: Standard 1 rax expo into 3 rax etc. His Build: 2 base Colossus / Stalker all-in Specific Map?: Any really. Replays: http://ggtracker.com/matches/385139 , http://ggtracker.com/matches/385140 Comments: I don't think I've ever managed to hold this sort of push. In the second replay, I got supply blocked a lot, and my upgrades were late (probably could have been maxed out), but the fight is so not close that I don't think it would have mattered.
I've got a lot of TvP to do so I'm gonna have a field day with it very soon!
There was a lot of TvP so I'm going to get right on more of those, but I'll probably also bunch a couple of them together since many of them are simply about the unit control and decisions and less about specific attacks or timings.
Such as, in the 3 gate aggression TvP video below, I also talk about the viking micro.
Episodes 7 and 8 are up! Both showcase how to defend a 6 pool, though each is different based on if your opponent brings a drone for a spine or simply charges with lings only.
I find that apm is linked considerably to game knowledge. I'm in mid gold right now and feel my macro is pretty good, so I decided to learn to play more standard to increase my skill, and as a result of knowing what to do my apm has gone up from 50 to 80. As more proof of this, early game while following a build order, scouting, and mineral stacking I can reach ~100 apm, while mid and late game it slips to about 80-90 as I'm less sure of what to do.
Your apm increases the more you focus on your mechanics. I can tell my story. My race is zerg.
When I was silver I didn't need many injects i could build additional hatches, get decent worker number get units and go win. When I got to gold I noticed I need to optimize my minerals, thats when I started using injects and expand more agressively, have less fear of moving around the map. When I got to plat, I wanted to get on top of my injects and get a little bit of creep spread between my bases. I had average scouting to find out if he cheeses or goes for macro. Now at diamond my injects are not missing almost a beat up to first 8-10 mins of game if I am not heavily harassed and my creep spread goes to approx half of the map. And I go heavy scouting, try tracking army movements understanding his opening.
So as you increase in skill your needs and requirements increase as well. Each small thing adds lets say ~5apm. I will sum it up a bit. For me:
Silver: ~30 apm Gold: ~30 apm + 5 (injects) + 5 (agressive expanding, tapping d buttont more to build drones) = ~40 apm Plat: ~40 apm + 5 (to injects to be on top of them) + 5 minimal creep spread + 5 scouting + 5 improved unit movement= ~60 apm Diamond ~60 apm + 5 improved creep spread, + 5 improved scouting + 5 advanced moving (such as having map presence with your units) and lets add +10 for knowing what you are doing and having a plan (there are no moments where you feel dull and think mmmh what should I do next....), so that makes ~85apm
Apm kind of corelates with your knowledge and hunger for win/action as you continue improving.
On August 19 2012 06:34 M4nkind wrote: Your apm increases the more you focus on your mechanics. I can tell my story. My race is zerg.
When I was silver I didn't need many injects i could build additional hatches, get decent worker number get units and go win. When I got to gold I noticed I need to optimize my minerals, thats when I started using injects and expand more agressively, have less fear of moving around the map. When I got to plat, I wanted to get on top of my injects and get a little bit of creep spread between my bases. I had average scouting to find out if he cheeses or goes for macro. Now at diamond my injects are not missing almost a beat up to first 8-10 mins of game if I am not heavily harassed and my creep spread goes to approx half of the map. And I go heavy scouting, try tracking army movements understanding his opening.
So as you increase in skill your needs and requirements increase as well. Each small thing adds lets say ~5apm. I will sum it up a bit. For me:
Silver: ~30 apm Gold: ~30 apm + 5 (injects) + 5 (agressive expanding, tapping d buttont more to build drones) = ~40 apm Plat: ~40 apm + 5 (to injects to be on top of them) + 5 minimal creep spread + 5 scouting + 5 improved unit movement= ~60 apm Diamond ~60 apm + 5 improved creep spread, + 5 improved scouting + 5 advanced moving (such as having map presence with your units) and lets add +10 for knowing what you are doing and having a plan (there are no moments where you feel dull and think mmmh what should I do next....), so that makes ~85apm
Apm kind of corelates with your knowledge and hunger for win/action as you continue improving.
Sure I think APM does increase with time and skill, but I don't think we still know how to use our apm as efficiently as possible. Every player that I play against is a Masters player and while my normal APM is probably 150-200, I'm showing that with important decision making you can have the apm of a low league player and still be able to beat anyone Masters and below.
I've never really thought of APM aside from being like "oh hey, my APM got up to 120 this game, woot!". I honestly realistically just practice builds over and over with no mistakes, doing the minimal amount I need to do outside of macro (simulating scouting, moving out with first units, etc...I only use 1-2 clicks, the rest is for macroing). Practicing this way has helped me keep a perfectly stable macro economy going while slowly increasing speed and making room for extra actions such as mineral stacking, moving my worker scout, simulating attacking, etc.
If you want to have more efficient APM, just spend some time shoring up your builds and making sure there are literally no hiccups or delays in your economy or production and that you're spending all the money you have constantly. Once you are able to do this stably, you can focus on using your extra APM to do extra stuff.
Great stuff. However i would prefer more terran videos. For example aggainst all the protoss 1 base variants (blink stalker, dt, proxy voidray, immortal bust) or the 2 base 6-8 gate timings. Related to zerg how you can hold baneling/roach allins. For TvT it would also be nice what´s important to hold the 1-1-1 marine,tank,banshee,scv allins, where i have a lot of trouble with in masterleague.
On August 19 2012 13:07 SC2John wrote: I've never really thought of APM aside from being like "oh hey, my APM got up to 120 this game, woot!". I honestly realistically just practice builds over and over with no mistakes, doing the minimal amount I need to do outside of macro (simulating scouting, moving out with first units, etc...I only use 1-2 clicks, the rest is for macroing). Practicing this way has helped me keep a perfectly stable macro economy going while slowly increasing speed and making room for extra actions such as mineral stacking, moving my worker scout, simulating attacking, etc.
If you want to have more efficient APM, just spend some time shoring up your builds and making sure there are literally no hiccups or delays in your economy or production and that you're spending all the money you have constantly. Once you are able to do this stably, you can focus on using your extra APM to do extra stuff.
I think that's a pretty good way to practice for sure. Basically you are doing what I'm trying to explain so that's perfect. Take care of all the necessities first and then later on you can worry about using all of your extra micro for moving the worker scout, mineral stacking, stutter stepping, etc...
On August 19 2012 21:18 Sianos wrote: Great stuff. However i would prefer more terran videos. For example aggainst all the protoss 1 base variants (blink stalker, dt, proxy voidray, immortal bust) or the 2 base 6-8 gate timings. Related to zerg how you can hold baneling/roach allins. For TvT it would also be nice what´s important to hold the 1-1-1 marine,tank,banshee,scv allins, where i have a lot of trouble with in masterleague.
I have a list of about 30-40 videos at least that still need to be accomplished (plus all the requests on top of that) so don't worry I'm going to get to those
If you want to have a specific one be made earlier though just fill out the little form in the OP and I'll get working on that in the next day.
MrLlama, I just wanted to say thanks for writing this guide. I recently switched from Terran to Zerg, and this has helped me a great deal. It's a leap of faith to go back and macro at your base while your army is in the middle of a fight, but I have to say that it really works. I've been advancing up the Gold ladder by following your suggestions, and I expect to reach Platinum soon.
The main thing I have trouble with in my ladder games is if I don't scout banshees or void rays in time to build spores or hydras. If there's more than a couple of them, it's pretty much gg at that point. So, I am trying to incorporate more scouting and OL fly-overs into my play.
With a lot of practice, I am finding that my useful APM is increasing, and I am able to do some micro while still keeping up with my injects, overlord production, etc. One thing that has helped significantly at my level is doing some micro with my roaches...A-move with roaches is no longer very effective. Getting up-close and personal so that they are all in range makes a huge difference.
Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
On August 21 2012 03:00 Salient wrote: Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
Yeah I definitely think this is an important one to cover. I'll be popping it out sometime this week for ya
On August 21 2012 00:19 Tuplex wrote: MrLlama, I just wanted to say thanks for writing this guide. I recently switched from Terran to Zerg, and this has helped me a great deal. It's a leap of faith to go back and macro at your base while your army is in the middle of a fight, but I have to say that it really works. I've been advancing up the Gold ladder by following your suggestions, and I expect to reach Platinum soon.
The main thing I have trouble with in my ladder games is if I don't scout banshees or void rays in time to build spores or hydras. If there's more than a couple of them, it's pretty much gg at that point. So, I am trying to incorporate more scouting and OL fly-overs into my play.
With a lot of practice, I am finding that my useful APM is increasing, and I am able to do some micro while still keeping up with my injects, overlord production, etc. One thing that has helped significantly at my level is doing some micro with my roaches...A-move with roaches is no longer very effective. Getting up-close and personal so that they are all in range makes a huge difference.
Thanks again for a great guide.
I love success stories like this
As zerg the definite difficulty is unscouted air play, however once you really get your macro pumping you can just start kind of blindly defending for it (throw up a spore at each base). when they bring in a lot of them then yes that can be tough but that also makes it more scoutable because they're investing heavily in air and you can see how small their ground composition is and know something is up. It comes with experience for sure but keep working and you'll be in plat in no time!
what really baffles me is that most apm is selectign and deselecting units ... or giving them ordesr that effectivley do nothing ... such as harvest minerals on workers that are ... harvesting minerals.
wow thanks for my 250 apm at the start ... nestea better be afraid.
Great contribution. Your videos are useful whether or not you are APM challenged. I am T and would love to see the following.
TvP: Defending heavy gateway pressure off of 2 base TvZ: Proper response to Z fast 3 hatch with multiple queens when T goes FE into double gas with hellions. I feel that trying to kill the hatch is unreliable, and dealing with Z economy is difficult even if I get a 3rd CC. Thoughts?
Great contribution. Your videos are useful whether or not you are APM challenged. I am T and would love to see the following.
TvP: Defending heavy gateway pressure off of 2 base TvZ: Proper response to Z fast 3 hatch with multiple queens when T goes FE into double gas with hellions. I feel that trying to kill the hatch is unreliable, and dealing with Z economy is difficult even if I get a 3rd CC. Thoughts?
Thanks!
Yeah defending 6-8 gate pressure off of 2 bases will definitely be coming out in the next few videos.
as for the TvZ, that's a bit broad. I'll try to come up with something for you but it really all depends on your style as I feel there are a lot of options for the terran player. One terran I played against had a really strong 2 base push of marine marauder hellion that caught me off guard, Another used a bunker very early at my 3rd with a couple of hellions to delay it for a decent amount of time. A 3rd one took his 3rd CC quickly and then was very aggressive with his drop play, though I think the reason he won was that it was on Shakuras and there was plenty of map abuse so it probably wouldn't have worked out so well for him otherwise.
I think there are a couple of really good solutions here: 1. Banshee followup. Not just like 1-2 banshees, but 4 banshees. The reason for this is because 4 banshees can actually take stuff out really quickly and force me into a weird situation of defending them. 2. deny my 3rd hatch 3. Good 2 base push. 1 push that can be tough to deal with is a banshee hellion push. the others I talked about above. 4. 4th CC quick? maybe? Idk, haven't experimented with that yet.
Ahh, my fave topic - APM. Im 38 years old and my APM never cracks 50. As of last nite I got back up into Masters (ranked 20). This is the 3rd time Ive been in masters. Ive beaten guys with APMs of 200. Ive also beaten about half a dozen GrandMasters (mostly protoss) in my career.
My advice to anyone is that APM is NOT a high priority thing to think about. Strategy and game plan are what its all about.
Keep the videos coming! Yes, I guess "how to deal with 3 base Z" is a little broad.
Here is one for you, how do I get optimal saturation on multiple bases? I get 2 base evenly saturated but I find when I watch replays that I often end up with 20 SCV on 2 remaining min patch with no income in mid game. Any good ways to remember to check or anything like that?
Thanks! The community appreciates your contribution.
Name: iFoundWaldo Race: Terran Matchup: TvZ My build: 1 Rax Expo into Marine Tank His build: 2 Base Muta into Ling/Bling/Muta Map: Any Comments: I know turrets can solve this, but I don't want to overbuild them if possible. How much is enough? What if they go heavy muta? I have trouble establishing and maintaining a third base with the constant harass.
Keep the videos coming! Yes, I guess "how to deal with 3 base Z" is a little broad.
Here is one for you, how do I get optimal saturation on multiple bases? I get 2 base evenly saturated but I find when I watch replays that I often end up with 20 SCV on 2 remaining min patch with no income in mid game. Any good ways to remember to check or anything like that?
Thanks! The community appreciates your contribution.
Thank you!
optimal saturation hmmmmm, I suppose I could do a video on that.
Right now I have a big plate of videos for defending stuff, but I also have a section that I've already starting planning out for "Tips and Tricks" that includes basic things like saturating bases, overlord spread, using baneling bombs, microing ghosts, etc..
So don't worry it may be a few days or weeks but I'll get to making those videos eventually
On August 22 2012 11:52 iFoundWaldo wrote: Name: iFoundWaldo Race: Terran Matchup: TvZ My build: 1 Rax Expo into Marine Tank His build: 2 Base Muta into Ling/Bling/Muta Map: Any Comments: I know turrets can solve this, but I don't want to overbuild them if possible. How much is enough? What if they go heavy muta? I have trouble establishing and maintaining a third base with the constant harass.
I'll think about a video for this but it's not going to really be "Winning" considering 2 base muta into ling/bling/muta isn't crazy all in, but it does put them behind if they can't do damage.
Question about your build: Are you going into fast upgrades? If so, dropping that armory for the +2 allows you to get out a thor which is a very nice way to defend your base (with turrets).
Something you have to remember: If he is on 2 bases and you are on 2 bases, you are ahead. So while you don't want to OVERBUILD turrets, it's not a terrible idea to build them because minerals come easier to terrans and you are still going to be ahead when you throw up those turrets.
I really like the idea of getting the thor out anyways. The real thing is that it frees you up to start to push out of your base (whether that be to take a 3rd base or go pressure the zerg) since he can't engage a thor with turrets around very well. You can then of course start to do pressure and catch him off guard if he is spending that time teching or macroing hard.
Anyways, all that being said, I'll see what I can do to make a video
Thanks for the advice, MrLlama! A faster thor isn't something I've tried yet. I usually just end up with stimmed marines running all over the place which usually just leaves me disorganized and confused haha. Maybe a thor or two will allow me to keep my army together and push out!
On August 22 2012 18:58 iFoundWaldo wrote: Thanks for the advice, MrLlama! A faster thor isn't something I've tried yet. I usually just end up with stimmed marines running all over the place which usually just leaves me disorganized and confused haha. Maybe a thor or two will allow me to keep my army together and push out!
Yeah the big thing to think about is how much of an investment it is for the zerg to get those mutas, ESPECIALLY on 2 bases.
So if he has 24 mutas or some high number, that's 2400/2400 for stuff that really doesn't add a whole lot to their army. With all the resources they used, you can get turrets in every base, a thor for each base, a couple thors for you army, and still have TONS of resources to spend elsewhere.
Then when you push out with your marine tank medivac army and a couple of thors, he can't really get close to you with his mutas because marines + thors is just a deadly deadly combo.
Edit: After a lot of testing with stuff, I think a video is actually going to be necessary because a lot of it will depend on your zerg opponent.
I think this one has MANY reactions that are possible, some of which are more macro oriented and some that depend on what your opponent does, but in the end I think the basics are covered.
Do not overreact when he pylon blocks you. Just keep droning and never make lings
I like your method, but isn't this still dependent on the protoss being retarded? Suppose he makes a relatively early zealot and just scouts with that; doesn't that mean insta lose (because you can't get up the second base.)
On August 24 2012 09:54 AdrianHealey wrote: I like your method, but isn't this still dependent on the protoss being retarded? Suppose he makes a relatively early zealot and just scouts with that; doesn't that mean insta lose (because you can't get up the second base.)
how early are we talking? the base should be able to get up in time before a zealot can find it (considering after he cannons you, he is going to be cannoning your 3rd (if not then you have your 3rd up and can just use those gases), and then getting a nexus of his own, followed by a gateway, and zealot.
If he does send the zealot later to scout and your base is already up, queens and drones will be able to hold it and then you'll just have to worry about throwing down spinecrawlers with the drones that would be mining minerals (make sure 6 stay on gas though).
Like I said, the game gets really nuts there, but your hidden base will go up and be fine unless he scouts it with his probe and can get it cannonrushed before it finishes.
here is the replay. After checking it again, even if he would have made a zealot right when it finishes and sent it directly to my hatch, he wouldn't be able to kill it
plus you have to remember he is going to be on 1-2 gates for most of the time that your base is running so you won't have to throw up too many spines
Thanks MrLlama! Theres definitely some good stuff there! I like the idea of sitting back as long as you know the zerg is also on 2 bases, and the reasoning you give. That tends to be one of my problems. I either am running around everywhere and forget entirely about leaving my base, or I leave when he's still on 2 base and get killed. I'll be trying that more. I really appreciate the help!!!
I for one am a little disappointed. I just finished game one and although you did justify why you wouldn't 'actually' be keeping yourself to 40apm I feel it was a cop out and your whole series is void. Talking about game one only, you would've lost comfortably if you had of kept yourself to 40apm. I may have been happy to accept you finishing at closer to 50 for variance sake but you nearly doubled your target APM which to me makes the whole series useless. There are so many other method guides for people to understand the ling bane zvz's (using game one as an example) that the only attraction to another one is if you could've stayed at a low APM. You really made it sound like you could play at a reasonably high level at a low APM and in game one you effectively dispproved your own theory. I will watch game two just in case you do manage to lower your APM but if it continues at almost double your targeted APM or worse I won't bother with the others.
On August 24 2012 14:19 Ackers wrote: I for one am a little disappointed. I just finished game one and although you did justify why you wouldn't 'actually' be keeping yourself to 40apm I feel it was a cop out and your whole series is void. Talking about game one only, you would've lost comfortably if you had of kept yourself to 40apm. I may have been happy to accept you finishing at closer to 50 for variance sake but you nearly doubled your target APM which to me makes the whole series useless. There are so many other method guides for people to understand the ling bane zvz's (using game one as an example) that the only attraction to another one is if you could've stayed at a low APM. You really made it sound like you could play at a reasonably high level at a low APM and in game one you effectively dispproved your own theory. I will watch game two just in case you do manage to lower your APM but if it continues at almost double your targeted APM or worse I won't bother with the others.
Game 1 was basically my test run so I was still getting used to bringing down my normal 180apm to under 40apm. the feedback wasn't very good in it either and I think it definitely improves as I move to game 2 and beyond. I'm going to be redoing game 1 I think pretty soon simply for that reason.
In the later games I manage to stay much closer to 40. Some of them are under, others end up around 50-60, but I feel like 50-60 is acceptable considering my reasoning. I know it sounds like a cop out answer, but if you're going to have 3 bases of zerg going, the simple production of lings will spike your apm to absurd numbers. The reason I think game 2->beyond is acceptable (with the exception of 1 other one where my apm is a tad high) is because I start to explain my decisions a lot better. I talk about each action that I'm taking and why I'm taking it and it really shows how it's 40 DPM and that the APM isn't quite as important. I think game 1 fails to do this as well though, you're right.
Yeah I just finished game two and even though it was a shorter game and therefore easier to finish with a reduced APM I felt like it was a very methodical approach to defending the 11/11 and extremely easy to see the majority of players being able to execute the actions without lightning hand speed. As you say your explanation of each thought process was so much better then game one I'm keen to finish the series once more. I just want to make it clear I recognise APM high or low will not make me a better player I simply liked the idea you had. After watching game two I will definitely be seeing the series out. Thanks for taking the time and effort putting this together you've done a great job and it can't be easy restricting yourself to a speed submaximal.
On August 24 2012 14:34 Ackers wrote: Yeah I just finished game two and even though it was a shorter game and therefore easier to finish with a reduced APM I felt like it was a very methodical approach to defending the 11/11 and extremely easy to see the majority of players being able to execute the actions without lightning hand speed. As you say your explanation of each thought process was so much better then game one I'm keen to finish the series once more. I just want to make it clear I recognise APM high or low will not make me a better player I simply liked the idea you had. After watching game two I will definitely be seeing the series out. Thanks for taking the time and effort putting this together you've done a great job and it can't be easy restricting yourself to a speed submaximal.
thank you for giving it a chance
I went ahead and switched episode 1 with episode...5? I think.
Your feedback has been extremely useful and I want others to come into the series thinking it's a lot more methodical and show each decision easily as opposed something like the ling/bling all in.
if you have any other notes please let me know, I want to improve this series the best that I can and really it's people like you who make it what better.
How about an episode on defending the 1/1/1 push as Terran, and another on defending the 1/1/1 as protoss? It's more common vs terran these days, but I still see players like Heart perform them in tournaments against protoss from time to time.
Yeah sure its easy to win with 40 APM or less IF u Zerg, ezpz, u need only to macro and push forward if u reach a good unit composition, u fucked up against drops cause u cant handle more than one side of the battlefield and your macro would go down if u get dropped
On August 24 2012 16:02 EvE-1988 wrote: Yeah sure its easy to win with 40 APM or less IF u Zerg, ezpz, u need only to macro and push forward if u reach a good unit composition, u fucked up against drops cause u cant handle more than one side of the battlefield and your macro would go down if u get dropped
you sound like you must be a masters player with all of the knowledge your spewing out.
sarcasm aside, I'm doing all 3 races. On top of that, I will be having a video for defending drops later that shows how to defend them easily without losing much apm
Really like the TvZ/TvT videos. If I may make a suggestion, it would help me if you paused a certain point or a couple points and went over your production buildings. In the TvT video, I couldn't quite make out when you got your factory or if you added additional barracks or anything like that. When did you make the decision to save for the 3rd.
EDIT - thought I could make my point clearer: In watching Day9, he stresses always having a goal in mind when doing things in SC2. I'll take the TvT how to break a tank contain video as an example. If I were playing, my goal would be, say, attack with 100 supply of units at the 10 min mark after the 1rax FE. That goal obviously shifts when you see he is rushing to tanks and you explain this well (move out to the WT with your forces etc). The part I'm having trouble with is what does your goal change to when you see this? In the video you apply pressure and get a gg while making a 3rd - should that be the goal when seeing this - to end the game @ ~13 min mark but have a 3rd if that doesn't work? I'd like to see your thought process in how you plan on winning in these videos more.
In the TvZ (dealing with mutas) was your goal with the attack @ ~10min to win the game to apply pressure and follow up? Obv. in the video the attack failed so I was wondering what your goal switched to seeing as he still had 3 bases.
On August 21 2012 03:00 Salient wrote: Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
Yeah I definitely think this is an important one to cover. I'll be popping it out sometime this week for ya
Thanks for considering the video I suggested. It's a pretty complicated strategy. It would be amazing to see it work with relatively low APM.
On August 25 2012 01:47 caznitch wrote: Really like the TvZ/TvT videos. If I may make a suggestion, it would help me if you paused a certain point or a couple points and went over your production buildings. In the TvT video, I couldn't quite make out when you got your factory or if you added additional barracks or anything like that. When did you make the decision to save for the 3rd.
EDIT - thought I could make my point clearer: In watching Day9, he stresses always having a goal in mind when doing things in SC2. I'll take the TvT how to break a tank contain video as an example. If I were playing, my goal would be, say, attack with 100 supply of units at the 10 min mark after the 1rax FE. That goal obviously shifts when you see he is rushing to tanks and you explain this well (move out to the WT with your forces etc). The part I'm having trouble with is what does your goal change to when you see this? In the video you apply pressure and get a gg while making a 3rd - should that be the goal when seeing this - to end the game @ ~13 min mark but have a 3rd if that doesn't work? I'd like to see your thought process in how you plan on winning in these videos more.
In the TvZ (dealing with mutas) was your goal with the attack @ ~10min to win the game to apply pressure and follow up? Obv. in the video the attack failed so I was wondering what your goal switched to seeing as he still had 3 bases.
I love the feedback, thank you. I'll definitely start adding a little bit more of a goal. I think a lot of this series is focused around having to change your goals a bit based on what you see, but then defining what you do from there can be difficult I suppose so I'll go over that more.
In the long run, I think the goal is when you're ahead, get further ahead. You do this through expansions, tech, and basic macro in general. The reason I don't realllllyyy do this is because I understand most timings pretty well as well as the games/videos would be WAYYY too long and get beyond the point of defending the main portion of it (otherwise I'm just showing long games over and over again).
That being said, I'll address your concerns in the videos you asked about TvT - When I crush his army, I know that he does not have much army back home. This is because when I scanned I saw he had a command center going down as well so he was going to be transitioning into macroing up a bit more. Had I scanned and not seen a CC, I would've checked for an expansion after crushing his attack and if there still wasn't one then I'd have stayed more defensive and not pushed up the ramp (because 2 bases is greater than 1 base so all I have to do is stay a base ahead). With his expansion and my crushing of his army, I also decided to take a 3rd base because if for some reason my attack failed because of him getting some crazy good siege shots or something weird happening, I want to still maintain my lead and I could do that with macro. This is why I also had tanks and siege mode on the way because I didn't want to turn it into an all in, I really just wanted to deny his expansion while I got another of my own up so I could stay ahead and then get even in tech terms. (and be ahead in army, workers, and bases).
TvZ - The goal of the 10 minute attack was to do some big damage and keep his mutas out of my base. It forces him to pull back instead of constantly building up bases while I'm contained and thus I could then establish a 3rd base as well as do some damage because mutas are weak. There are a couple of things to note with this video: 1. my attack was poorly positioned and I didn't focus fire the banelings so I cost myself an auto win at that point (if he doesn't break that contain I reinforce, and he falls severely behind while I get my 3rd up and running and everything. 2. I should've set my 3rd up sooner as I was pushing out. 3. I DID kill his 3rd, so the game was actually back to about even at that point. From there my goal was to continue upgrades, get my 3rd base established (should be easy considering he didn't have a TON of mutas), and then just take it into the next stage of the TvZ game. Nothing too crazy beyond that point and I know my attack wasn't amazing, but it did what it needed to do (deny the 3rd and pull back the mutas) so I felt it was good enough
Interesting take on the 3 pylon block. On a related note, do you think lower apm improves decision making more? I want to have the right reactions to things instead of throwing away inefficient 200/200 armies
On August 25 2012 04:41 caznitch wrote: Thanks for the response. I'll rewatch the videos to pick up on the more subtle things you mentioned.
And yes, you did kill the 3rd in the TvZ... I guess I have a terrible memory!
okay! I'll try to incorporate your feedback into the newer videos though.
On August 25 2012 03:50 Garhf wrote: Interesting take on the 3 pylon block. On a related note, do you think lower apm improves decision making more? I want to have the right reactions to things instead of throwing away inefficient 200/200 armies
That's the way I react currently to a 3 pylon block when they add the pylon and extra cannons. If they do not, I'll just chill in my base and drone up while the spine/queen pick away at the pylons then I'll be free to take my natural and 3rd with infestors. Either way the proper reaction is DO NOT PANIC AND MAKE LINGS
on your related note, I think this series has definitely helped me out, especially in terms of being able to analyze why I lost a game. I think it's right to play with whatever your APM is and not try and lower it, but now when I look at engagements or games that I lost I can take a step back, look at the very basic things (like a lack of a flank in a certain direction or something), and take note of how much that 1 decision to move units in a flank position or something would've changed the tide of the battle.
It's really impressive how much the small decisions matter, and this series has definitely helped me understand what exactly they are (because I have to limit myself to them only)
On August 21 2012 03:00 Salient wrote: Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
Yeah I definitely think this is an important one to cover. I'll be popping it out sometime this week for ya
Thanks for considering the video I suggested. It's a pretty complicated strategy. It would be amazing to see it work with relatively low APM.
I've added a video, hopefully it suits what you were looking for:
On August 21 2012 03:00 Salient wrote: Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
Yeah I definitely think this is an important one to cover. I'll be popping it out sometime this week for ya
Thanks for considering the video I suggested. It's a pretty complicated strategy. It would be amazing to see it work with relatively low APM.
On August 21 2012 03:00 Salient wrote: Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
Yeah I definitely think this is an important one to cover. I'll be popping it out sometime this week for ya
Thanks for considering the video I suggested. It's a pretty complicated strategy. It would be amazing to see it work with relatively low APM.
I just watched your video and there are a lot of problems with it. First, you don't go for the CreatorPrime style. You do your own little build, something weird like 2 gate into forge into gate into robo into forge. This wildly different from the CreatorPrime style. Creator gets these buildings in a particular order for a particular reason. With your delayed gates, you'll have trouble dealing with marine pressure, (4 or 5 rax no gas off of 1 rax cc). The delayed robo also causes a big problem. Early scouting and reacting is a big part of the Creator build, something you don't have.
With regards to the push, your Terran opponent didn't seem to do the push properly. At 10 minutes, a Terran is supposed to have around 25 marines, 2-3 marauders, and 2 medivacs. Your opponent seems to have way more marauders and way fewer marines, which makes the push much less powerful. Also, the map you chose isn't a particular good map for this push. Something like Antiga or Entombed would be worlds better and wouldn't give you an initial advantage.
Finally, yes, your build does well against the initial 10 minute push due to your high number of gateway units. However, what a Terran is supposed to do if he scouts your heavy gateway count is just take a third while building up his army. Instead, your opponent attacks straight into your army, which is designed to repel that attack. Without colossi, you will never ever be able to safely take a third with your style against a good Terran who does a marine heavy standard build.
Basically add a 4th gate quickly and use the power of 4 gates to defend the initial attack. It'll be much harder than what Llama shows, because you'll have less units. However, by getting a faster robotics bay, you'll be able to eventually take a 3rd faster and more safely. Basically this smooths out your defensive strength across the mid game. With Llama's build you'll be very strong at 10 minutes, but much weaker at 12 minutes.
I wrote about it here:
On July 16 2012 00:07 NrGmonk wrote: For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings.
Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army.
Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast.
On August 21 2012 03:00 Salient wrote: Name: Don Jimbo Race: Protoss Matchup: PvT My build: MC 1 gate into double forge creator prime style. His build: 1 rax expo into 10 minute +1 stim medivac MM push with floating rax for high ground vision. Map: Any Comments: I know that the proper response requires good vision with observers and good army splitting. But it would be helpful to see your descion making up to the point that you survive the push and take a third.
Yeah I definitely think this is an important one to cover. I'll be popping it out sometime this week for ya
Thanks for considering the video I suggested. It's a pretty complicated strategy. It would be amazing to see it work with relatively low APM.
I just watched your video and there are a lot of problems with it. First, you don't go for the CreatorPrime style. You do your own little build, something weird like 2 gate into forge into gate into robo into forge. This wildly different from the CreatorPrime style. Creator gets these buildings in a particular order for a particular reason. With your delayed gates, you'll have trouble dealing with marine pressure, (4 or 5 rax no gas off of 1 rax cc). The delayed robo also causes a big problem. Early scouting and reacting is a big part of the Creator build, something you don't have.
With regards to the push, your Terran opponent didn't seem to do the push properly. At 10 minutes, a Terran is supposed to have around 25 marines, 2-3 marauders, and 2 medivacs. Your opponent seems to have way more marauders and way fewer marines, which makes the push much less powerful. Also, the map you chose isn't a particular good map for this push. Something like Antiga or Entombed would be worlds better and wouldn't give you an initial advantage.
Finally, yes, your build does well against the initial 10 minute push due to your high number of gateway units. However, what a Terran is supposed to do if he scouts your heavy gateway count is just take a third while building up his army. Instead, your opponent attacks straight into your army, which is designed to repel that attack. Without colossi, you will never ever be able to safely take a third with your style against a good Terran who does a marine heavy standard build.
Basically add a 4th gate quickly and use the power of 4 gates to defend the initial attack. It'll be much harder than what Llama shows, because you'll have less units. However, by getting a faster robotics bay, you'll be able to eventually take a 3rd faster and more safely. Basically this smooths out your defensive strength across the mid game. With Llama's build you'll be very strong at 10 minutes, but much weaker at 12 minutes.
On July 16 2012 00:07 NrGmonk wrote: For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings.
Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army.
Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast.
I appreciate all of the feedback and I'd love to respond
1. I know this is not the creatorprime double forge opener. This is a ROOT players opener that I talk about is a modification of the double forge because this build will actually get you an additional upgrade (since you take a forge earlier) so when he hit with his timing push, I had 2-1 vs his 0-1 instead of the creator build which would only give me 1-1.
This build will actually deal with the early rine pressure just fine. I watched the player do this build about 4-5 times vs a variety of attacks and timings and he was able to handle it just fine. With regards to the 4-5 rax, you have the sentries to hold the ramp until you can warp in stalkers which you can then push down and take out his force. Your nexus WILL take damage but it's 2000 health so this gives you a lot of time to deal with this.
In terms of scouting, the robotics facility will normally pop at the exact same time as in the creatorprime double forge build.
quick edit: OHHH in this game I delay the robotics facility accidentally more because I snag another sentry. That was an accident on my part, normally you will get the robotics facility earlier after that first sentry and forge upgrade go down. I apologize, for this series I'm having to learn so many builds and this one I missed 1-2 things like this. That being said, I have seen the robotics facility been taken a little bit later and the unit composition if he goes for an earlier push (from what I've seen) should be able to defend, even if you don't have a scout on it.
In terms of my terran opponent, he is a mid-high masters player so I just trusted he could do the push closely. Looking back, he has 21 marines, 8 marauders, 2 medivacs. Not too different but yes it wasn't exactly the same.
Finally you say:
Basically add a 4th gate quickly and use the power of 4 gates to defend the initial attack. It'll be much harder than what Llama shows, because you'll have less units. However, by getting a faster robotics bay, you'll be able to eventually take a 3rd faster and more safely. Basically this smooths out your defensive strength across the mid game. With Llama's build you'll be very strong at 10 minutes, but much weaker at 12 minutes.
Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark.
If you note my game, I throw down my 4th gateway at 6:35 actually so I am actually doing what you are saying. I also do not add on the 5th and 6th gateways until like 10 minutes so they aren't even a factor during the attack really. (basically I'm saying we both are defending off of the 4 gates).
I think there is definitely room for exploration here. my macro fell and I got supply blocked (was so sad) but in that time you could easily be throwing down a robotics bay and then have collosus to get out. Plus you have to remember you have an extra upgrade on top of creatorprimes double forge build.
I think they are just different builds but I truly believe both work. I know I didn't optimally do mine, but you have to also remember I'm trying to play with 40apm (ended up with 50) so it can be difficult to do EVERYTHING and for this series I'm just trying to really fulfill requests such as "how do I hold this push that kills me".
Lastly, you say my opponent pushed when he shouldn't have. 1. I was only pumping off 4 gates, not 6, just like you were talking about. 2. the extra upgrade is what really turned the battle in my opinion 3. the map was just a random pick of the map. I agree it could've been a worse map so sorry. 4. he pushed because the video was called "how to defend this push." If he doesn't push in and just backs off, people won't see the strength of the build and how they can hold.
In terms of my terran opponent, he is a mid-high masters player so I just trusted he could do the push closely. Looking back, he has 21 marines, 8 marauders, 2 medivacs. Not too different but yes it wasn't exactly the same.
I just opened up some pro-level games of a proper 10 minute double reactor push for some exact numbers. I was estimating before. At the 10 minute mark the first game has 28 marines, 3 marauders, and 2 medivacs. The second game has 27 marines, 1 marauder, and 20 medivacs at 9 minutes. At 10 minutes, 31 marines, 3 marauders, and 4 medivacs. This represents a huge difference from what you showed in the ratio of marines to marauders, as the marines represent the vast majority of the dps and are key to the effectiveness of the build.
Also, you didn't address my biggest issue, which was that it's extremely difficult to take a third safely at an early enough time with just gateway units with no other tech with your particular build. At some point, your opponent should be able to hit a strong timing to deny this base or kill you.
I still have some other problems, but they're rather minor compared to these big two I mentioned.
Edit: Perhaps I don't understand this series well. I'm trying to approach this from the perspective of a good tutorial without the 40 apm restriction. I don't know exactly how this all factors in or what the purpose of the 40 apm thing is, so please keep that in mind with what I'm saying.
In terms of my terran opponent, he is a mid-high masters player so I just trusted he could do the push closely. Looking back, he has 21 marines, 8 marauders, 2 medivacs. Not too different but yes it wasn't exactly the same.
I just opened up some pro-level games of a proper 10 minute double reactor push for some exact numbers. I was estimating before. At the 10 minute mark the first game has 28 marines, 3 marauders, and 2 medivacs. The second game has 27 marines, 1 marauder, and 20 medivacs at 9 minutes. At 10 minutes, 31 marines, 3 marauders, and 4 medivacs. This represents a huge difference from what you showed in the ratio of marines to marauders, as the marines represent the vast majority of the dps and are key to the effectiveness of the build.
Also, you didn't address my biggest issue, which was that it's extremely difficult to take a third safely at an early enough time with just gateway units with no other tech with your particular build. At some point, your opponent should be able to hit a strong timing to deny this base or kill you.
I still have some other problems, but they're rather minor compared to these big two I mentioned.
Edit: Perhaps I don't understand this series well. I'm trying to approach this from the perspective of a good tutorial without the 40 apm restriction. I don't know exactly how this all factors in or what the purpose of the 40 apm thing is, so please keep that in mind with what I'm saying.
Okay, well he chose for a slighty more marauder heavy style of the push then I suppose. I'm still pretty sure I would've been able to hold though even if he had 5-6 less marauders and 7-10 more marines. Yes it would boost the dps up a ton but the survivability of the army would drop some as well. I'd be willing to show my build against the 28 marines 3 marauders 2 medivacs and prove it still works if that's what you'd like.
As for your biggest issue, I suppose I have some questions then. Reading your guide it says:
Third timing: You will not want to expand to a third until you’ve scouted your opponent has taken a third unless you’re way ahead. You will need every unit you can get to hold pushes and you can’t really afford to spread too thin versus drop play. Don’t be afraid of the Terran getting a economical advantage, because as long as you start your 3rd nexus within a minute after he does, you should be fine as your upgrades can carry you through late game.
11:25 Robotics bay
so by your guide (which is behind in upgrades to my build might I add so it's easier to take a 3rd with my upgrade advantage on gateway units), you are taking a robotics bay at 11:25, which means it finishes at 12:30, which means your first collosus isn't out until 13:45 (w/o CB so a little earlier).
You say you can't take a 3rd until you have splash from collo yet you also say it needs to be within a minute of your opponents (who is going to have his 3rd started at 10:30-11:00 min). So which is it? I suppose I'd like a little more info at this point of the game.
As for my build, I think the templar archives and charge could definitely be started earlier to help ease the 3rd base to go down (as well as provide a templar with feedback to protect my base). I was playing into an archon-chargelot sort of build (though I overmade stalkers a tad) that would have a 3-4 upgrade advantage and thus you could either push out with it and hit a nice push where you just swarm them with charge and superior upgrades, or you could take a 3rd base with and then continue play from there.
The purpose of the 40 apm thing is to show players how to not panic. From my experience, when players get in these situations they try to think what pros would do (which is a LOT of apm) and they try to simple do too much because they don't know what the best decisions and reactions are. So I try and show things like, "Put a few stalkers up here, get ready to drop forcefields with sentries, warp in zealots, etc" all while using minimal apm so there aren't 1000 things going on where it's confusing to them. Sometimes this means I can't be optimal in my engagements or play (which I've explained in the OP) but I show that you can still hold and be okay if you don't have the apm to play optimally and can only make a few decisions during a battle.
Just a heads up, the questions I pose are not trying to be hateful or anything, it's just honest curiosity. My build definitely allows you to throw down a robotics bay at 11:25 if you wish, in which case I fail to see the difference between either of us taking a 3rd. I just choose to go templar/archon tech this time around (though it could've been dropped sooner, but then again it really only needed to be dropped if he had backed off because once he lost his army I could easily take my 3rd)
On August 26 2012 12:08 MrLlama wrote: Okay, well he chose for a slighty more marauder heavy style of the push then I suppose. I'm still pretty sure I would've been able to hold though even if he had 5-6 less marauders and 7-10 more marines. Yes it would boost the dps up a ton but the survivability of the army would drop some as well. I'd be willing to show my build against the 28 marines 3 marauders 2 medivacs and prove it still works if that's what you'd like.
I think you can probably hold too, especially on Ohana. But i'm just pointing out that big difference and want to make sure you acknowledge it. I would offer to test with you, but my GPU or PSU broke a while ago, so I can't play =(.
As for your biggest issue, I suppose I have some questions then. Reading your guide it says:
Third timing: You will not want to expand to a third until you’ve scouted your opponent has taken a third unless you’re way ahead. You will need every unit you can get to hold pushes and you can’t really afford to spread too thin versus drop play. Don’t be afraid of the Terran getting a economical advantage, because as long as you start your 3rd nexus within a minute after he does, you should be fine as your upgrades can carry you through late game.
so by your guide (which is behind in upgrades to my build might I add so it's easier to take a 3rd with my upgrade advantage on gateway units), you are taking a robotics bay at 11:25, which means it finishes at 12:30, which means your first collosus isn't out until 13:45 (w/o CB so a little earlier).
You say you can't take a 3rd until you have splash from collo yet you also say it needs to be within a minute of your opponents (who is going to have his 3rd started at 10:30-11:00 min). So which is it? I suppose I'd like a little more info at this point of the game.
The misunderstand comes from the fact that I haven't updated my guide in a while. The guide I originally wrote is about a year old, as that's when Creator first used this style. At the point, the 2 reactor push was not popular at all. It was made popular mostly by MKP, especially during his game(s) vs Parting in the GSTL finals back in March of this year I believe. Since then, this build has become very popular and I've gotten tons of people asking about it in my guide. See the last three pages of my guide for all those questions. My OP of that thread isn't updated to address these changes. Instead, my quote from July 16th both in this thread and in my CreatorPrime guide addresses this problem.
If you follow the original build I have in my guide with the old 3 gate opening into late robo bay, you'll have a lot of trouble with this push. But with the faster 4th gate and faster robo bay, you'll do a lot better. As I explained before, the 4th gate helps with defending the 10 minute push while the robo bay allows you to take an expo earlier. Both are direct reactions to the new double reactor build. I guess I should update my guide sometime. =/
Also, I know you're not trying to be hateful. No probs!
If you follow the original build I have in my guide with the old 3 gate opening into late robo bay, you'll have a lot of trouble with this push. But with the faster 4th gate and faster robo bay, you'll do a lot better. As I explained before, the 4th gate helps with defending the 10 minute push while the robo bay allows you to take an expo earlier. Both are direct reactions to the new double reactor build. I guess I should update my guide sometime. =/
Hmm, okay well I do have the faster 4th gate in my build so I'm not sure where that difference comes into play, but I think the robo bay would probably be good to address to take a faster expo. I thought that with the upgrades and then getting charge/archons you would be safe to take a 3rd but I suppose a faster 3rd would be good to take so then throwing down a robotics bay would be helpful to have. I have the robotics facility and the 4 gates and everything so possibly just saving a little gas from making a couple more zealots instead of stalkers (which I needed to do anyways) would allow me to throw it down earlier and in time to take the 3rd safely with collosus.
Added another episode. This one tackles the ever so scary 1 base blink stalker all in.
a couple of notes i'd like to make 1. you don't always have to sacrifice your natural, some maps you can hold it a lot easier. On cloud though there is just too much room in my opinion and it can be very difficult to hold your natural. I also sack the natural because it takes less APM to hold 1 base than going back and forth for 2, but you can still come out ahead either way. 2. I know my apm hit like 65 for this game. I think this is probably one of the more micro intensive pushes to hold (since your defenses are thin and his push is so strong) so it may require a little bit more focus
I'd be interested in seeing how you defend the TvP 1-1-1 with 40 APM. The early harass in particular seems like it would be very difficult to hold with such low APM.
I think the main point of this series is not to advocate slow APM, but to advocate good decision making. Being fast is wonderful sure, but being accurate is more important. I've seen replays of LastShadow, an incredibly fast player, wiff upgrades because he's moving too fast and literally spamming back and forth. Accuracy comes with practice and speed will come with repetition, that's how I see it, my APM is really low, but I'm only a Plat player, so I try to make the most out of what I can do and sooner or later my speed will gradually increase.
On August 27 2012 09:23 FortMonty wrote: I think the main point of this series is not to advocate slow APM, but to advocate good decision making. Being fast is wonderful sure, but being accurate is more important. I've seen replays of LastShadow, an incredibly fast player, wiff upgrades because he's moving too fast and literally spamming back and forth. Accuracy comes with practice and speed will come with repetition, that's how I see it, my APM is really low, but I'm only a Plat player, so I try to make the most out of what I can do and sooner or later my speed will gradually increase.
Yep. I'm not saying you should play slowly, but that you should simply make the best decisions. One thing I can say though is that playing slowly has improved my decision making for when I do speed up again.
On August 27 2012 08:52 Acritter wrote: I'd be interested in seeing how you defend the TvP 1-1-1 with 40 APM. The early harass in particular seems like it would be very difficult to hold with such low APM.
the 1-1-1 is gonna be interesting simply because of how many variations there are and how you react differently to each one. I'm trying to figure something out for this.
On August 27 2012 06:13 MrLlama wrote: Added another episode. This one tackles the ever so scary 1 base blink stalker all in.
a couple of notes i'd like to make 1. you don't always have to sacrifice your natural, some maps you can hold it a lot easier. On cloud though there is just too much room in my opinion and it can be very difficult to hold your natural. I also sack the natural because it takes less APM to hold 1 base than going back and forth for 2, but you can still come out ahead either way. 2. I know my apm hit like 65 for this game. I think this is probably one of the more micro intensive pushes to hold (since your defenses are thin and his push is so strong) so it may require a little bit more focus
Do you always go for 2 tech labs if you see a double gas, or is it map dependent? I've been going 2 reactors all the time, which might contribute to why I lose to this every time.
On August 27 2012 06:13 MrLlama wrote: Added another episode. This one tackles the ever so scary 1 base blink stalker all in.
a couple of notes i'd like to make 1. you don't always have to sacrifice your natural, some maps you can hold it a lot easier. On cloud though there is just too much room in my opinion and it can be very difficult to hold your natural. I also sack the natural because it takes less APM to hold 1 base than going back and forth for 2, but you can still come out ahead either way. 2. I know my apm hit like 65 for this game. I think this is probably one of the more micro intensive pushes to hold (since your defenses are thin and his push is so strong) so it may require a little bit more focus
Do you always go for 2 tech labs if you see a double gas, or is it map dependent? I've been going 2 reactors all the time, which might contribute to why I lose to this every time.
When I scout double gas I like to go for the double tech lab (and you can get a reactor on the other barracks if you'd like). Then when I use my scan to scout I usually base what I'm building from that. so if I somehow scout any air or a stargate (usually proxied) then I'll of course keep it at marines and throw up a couple turrets, but if I scout the robo and some stalkers (or the twilight of course) then I'll pump the marauders out and back into my 1 base (especially on ck).
I think it's also a bit map dependent though because for cloud kingdom in my experience it's like 80% blink stalker all in if I see double gas and no expo. So I just kinda prepare for it that way.
Lastly, the double tech lab allows for the necessary upgrades. Stim takes forever (as you know) so I can start that early, then when I do my scan if I see air play I can start combat shields immediately, or if I see the robo/twilight/blink indication I can start concussive shells (which is very useful in holding the blink stalker all in). with 2 reactors you can't do that and I think that hurts because it's a very tough defense.
Edit: and kind of in response to the post below, yes you want to check for an expansion of theirs. This is why I scan first then back up into my main base if I don't see an expansion, because why waste the time backing up into your main base if they've already expanded?!
I think backing up to the main base when you scout 2 gas is allways a good choice, because of this you don´t need an ebay to defend aggainst dts. You even don´t have to use your energy for mules, because your mineral line is already oversaturated. BUT make sure you do a recheck at the natrual arround 5:30 to see whether he has expanded or not because he could also go for a sentry expand build into 3 gate pressure. So just keep your army together in your main and tech to medivacs as fast as possible and it´s your win.
I've uploaded episode 20: Defending a 4 gate in ZvP
There are a couple of things to note: 1. The reason his 4gate hits later is because of the units I pick off that he initially moves out with. This doesn't give him a large enough army to move in so instead he waits to build up his zealot count and push in a little later. 2. He goes pure zealot because he knows I use lings and is trying to metagame me a bit 3. my apm is a little high (60), mostly because I think I was APM spamming a bit unconsciously. This is definitely a push that can be held with under 40 apm though.
I'll probably do a hatch first with scout build later since that can be even easier and really put you ahead without having to micro. Plus if they pull drones you can react.
Hey, this is a great initiative for helping players who struggle with cheese and feel like they are held back by their fingers. I'll definitely recommend this series to low level players asking for help.
I have a minor complaint about the 15 hatch vs 10pool one though - that was a pretty weak 10pool build. The guy expanded but made no attempt to transition, so the hatch would never have any value. it was basically a 10pool with 300 minerals wasted. It would have been much different if he had either pulled eight of his drones, or mined gas for a speedling follow up or maybe slowling/baneling, or droned after 6 lings (this is the situation where you would expand). those would be more normal 10pool variations.
On August 29 2012 06:51 Oboeman wrote: Hey, this is a great initiative for helping players who struggle with cheese and feel like they are held back by their fingers. I'll definitely recommend this series to low level players asking for help.
I have a minor complaint about the 15 hatch vs 10pool one though - that was a pretty weak 10pool build. The guy expanded but made no attempt to transition, so the hatch would never have any value. it was basically a 10pool with 300 minerals wasted. It would have been much different if he had either pulled eight of his drones, or mined gas for a speedling follow up or maybe slowling/baneling, or droned after 6 lings (this is the situation where you would expand). those would be more normal 10pool variations.
Thank you.
And I think the transition was simply him trying to find a good place to stop once I held off the initial 10 pool. He didn't get the hatch, he was down on drones, he was down on lings, and I had a spine crawler going up. From there sure he can transition into ling/bling or even mass speedling but I feel at that point it's no longer defending a 10 pool and more defending a mass speedling all in except you have the advantage since you have the drone lead.
That being said, I'm willing to make another 10 pool hold with a different transition beyond him hatching if you want.
As for the drone pull, I'm pretty sure that is just a straight up B/O loss that you can't avoid. I've never seen anybody hold 10pool vs hatch when the opponent brings 8-10 drones along (and thus can build spines as well). 6-8 lings + 8-10 drones > 16 drones everytime so he can just drop a spine and A-move at your army and you're pretty much done for. If ANYBODY can dispute this or knows of a way to hold a masters player who brings the drones along too, please let me know.
I changed my mind, but I'll leave my initial comments below. This is really good advice for people in bronze/silver who are finding themselves losing to cheesy, ridiculous, and/or unorthodox builds (basically everything found in bronze/silver).
My suggestions below are better suited for those in gold/plat who are trying to make the push to diamond+
A huge key to getting better and improving is FORCING YOURSELF to play faster. Eventually you'll get used doing simple actions faster, and your play will greatly improve after some time (of course you will likely play worse at first). Trying to make due with low APM is ill-advised imo.
On August 07 2012 08:26 Sir Z wrote: As a gold player with fairly low APM, and who's not really interested in spending the time doing APM drills, I'm totally interested in this.
If you really want to get better at the game, I would not suggest APM drills to make you play quicker. Just try doing everything fast as you possibly can. You will lose a bunch early on because you're not used to trying to play so quickly. After some time you'll adapt, and then you can start working in some good builds to accompany your higher APM.
On August 29 2012 06:51 Oboeman wrote: Hey, this is a great initiative for helping players who struggle with cheese and feel like they are held back by their fingers. I'll definitely recommend this series to low level players asking for help.
I have a minor complaint about the 15 hatch vs 10pool one though - that was a pretty weak 10pool build. The guy expanded but made no attempt to transition, so the hatch would never have any value. it was basically a 10pool with 300 minerals wasted. It would have been much different if he had either pulled eight of his drones, or mined gas for a speedling follow up or maybe slowling/baneling, or droned after 6 lings (this is the situation where you would expand). those would be more normal 10pool variations.
Thank you.
And I think the transition was simply him trying to find a good place to stop once I held off the initial 10 pool. He didn't get the hatch, he was down on drones, he was down on lings, and I had a spine crawler going up. From there sure he can transition into ling/bling or even mass speedling but I feel at that point it's no longer defending a 10 pool and more defending a mass speedling all in except you have the advantage since you have the drone lead.
That being said, I'm willing to make another 10 pool hold with a different transition beyond him hatching if you want.
As for the drone pull, I'm pretty sure that is just a straight up B/O loss that you can't avoid. I've never seen anybody hold 10pool vs hatch when the opponent brings 8-10 drones along (and thus can build spines as well). 6-8 lings + 8-10 drones > 16 drones everytime so he can just drop a spine and A-move at your army and you're pretty much done for. If ANYBODY can dispute this or knows of a way to hold a masters player who brings the drones along too, please let me know.
Your vid showed a good hold of 15 hatch vs a 10pool that makes only 6 lings and tries to macro out of it (except the guy didn't macro out of it) but a 10pool speedling video would be more useful I think. As for the drone pull, it being difficult is the main reason you should do it :p. I think I have seen someone hold it blind only a few times, but I'm not sure if it was an execution error from the aggressor. It involved a lot of drone-stacking to buy time and moving back and forth between the main and natural. You could do a video of holding it with a 9 scout or a 10 scout, though.
Another valuable ZvZ one would be defending a one base baneling all-in when you did a 15 hatch or a pool-hatch build. It's not too difficult to stop if you know, but it's the kind of that you will outright die to over and over again if you don't know how to handle it.
On August 29 2012 08:23 Mr Showtime wrote: I changed my mind, but I'll leave my initial comments below. This is really good advice for people in bronze/silver who are finding themselves losing to cheesy, ridiculous, and/or unorthodox builds (basically everything found in bronze/silver).
My suggestions below are better suited for those in gold/plat who are trying to make the push to diamond+
A huge key to getting better and improving is FORCING YOURSELF to play faster. Eventually you'll get used doing simple actions faster, and your play will greatly improve after some time (of course you will likely play worse at first). Trying to make due with low APM is ill-advised imo.
On August 07 2012 08:26 Sir Z wrote: As a gold player with fairly low APM, and who's not really interested in spending the time doing APM drills, I'm totally interested in this.
If you really want to get better at the game, I would not suggest APM drills to make you play quicker. Just try doing everything fast as you possibly can. You will lose a bunch early on because you're not used to trying to play so quickly. After some time you'll adapt, and then you can start working in some good builds to accompany your higher APM.
I think we just have different methodologies. I personally think that it's better to have good decision making than quick hands. The quick hands will come with play, but if you are just trying to do everything as fast as you can, you'll never develop a good rhythm and you'll never know why you're winning or losing (besides you just happened to do stuff right one time, and not the other). I think it's a LOT easier for replay analysis when you do everything based on decisions because you understand the game much better and can go back and say, "I lost because I did not make this decision" instead of being unsure since you don't understand the game enough to know what decision was most important.
That's just how I feel though, I know some people are big advocates of the fast hands so to each their own.
On August 29 2012 06:51 Oboeman wrote: Hey, this is a great initiative for helping players who struggle with cheese and feel like they are held back by their fingers. I'll definitely recommend this series to low level players asking for help.
I have a minor complaint about the 15 hatch vs 10pool one though - that was a pretty weak 10pool build. The guy expanded but made no attempt to transition, so the hatch would never have any value. it was basically a 10pool with 300 minerals wasted. It would have been much different if he had either pulled eight of his drones, or mined gas for a speedling follow up or maybe slowling/baneling, or droned after 6 lings (this is the situation where you would expand). those would be more normal 10pool variations.
Thank you.
And I think the transition was simply him trying to find a good place to stop once I held off the initial 10 pool. He didn't get the hatch, he was down on drones, he was down on lings, and I had a spine crawler going up. From there sure he can transition into ling/bling or even mass speedling but I feel at that point it's no longer defending a 10 pool and more defending a mass speedling all in except you have the advantage since you have the drone lead.
That being said, I'm willing to make another 10 pool hold with a different transition beyond him hatching if you want.
As for the drone pull, I'm pretty sure that is just a straight up B/O loss that you can't avoid. I've never seen anybody hold 10pool vs hatch when the opponent brings 8-10 drones along (and thus can build spines as well). 6-8 lings + 8-10 drones > 16 drones everytime so he can just drop a spine and A-move at your army and you're pretty much done for. If ANYBODY can dispute this or knows of a way to hold a masters player who brings the drones along too, please let me know.
Your vid showed a good hold of 15 hatch vs a 10pool that makes only 6 lings and tries to macro out of it (except the guy didn't macro out of it) but a 10pool speedling video would be more useful I think. As for the drone pull, it being difficult is the main reason you should do it :p. I think I have seen someone hold it blind only a few times, but I'm not sure if it was an execution error from the aggressor. It involved a lot of drone-stacking to buy time and moving back and forth between the main and natural. You could do a video of holding it with a 9 scout or a 10 scout, though.
Another valuable ZvZ one would be defending a one base baneling all-in when you did a 15 hatch or a pool-hatch build. It's not too difficult to stop if you know, but it's the kind of that you will outright die to over and over again if you don't know how to handle it.
1. he actually continuously pumped lings out, then took his hatch when he had a spare 300 minerals (instead of grabbing a gas or something. 2. I see this 10 pool on ladder in masters league still many times, where they grab the hatch right after. Their plan is simply to deny your hatch and then get up one of their own. 3. a 10 pool speedling video is just another transition out but I suppose that'd be something good to hold. Any specific build order you want? 4. I think the only times the no scout vs 10 pool with drone pull has ever worked is when the guy attacking makes a micro mistake somewhere. With flawless play I'm pretty sure it is an automatic win from everything that I've seen. that being said, I suppose I'd be willing to try it (but idk if 40 apm would cut it considering I don't even know if 300 apm is enough lol) 5. I'll have a drone scout vid up soon. 6. yeah the 14/14 ling/bling all in is on the list vs a hatch first build.
I have a new episode up. Something I'd like to note is that while it would probably be easier to hold this 2 rax all in with 3 gates and no expansion, were they to just do a 2 rax light pressure into expand then you would be getting your expansion later than him. So I just want to show that it IS possible to hold with the 2 gates (though a tad more difficult) just incase you prefer to do it like this.
I'm really enjoying the video series so far. Its nice to have actual descriptions for how to hold the various cheeses and early attacks, instead of a vague "just keep macroing and you'll win" thing.
I also like the title, just a shame people are taking it too literally
On August 30 2012 04:26 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I'm really enjoying the video series so far. Its nice to have actual descriptions for how to hold the various cheeses and early attacks, instead of a vague "just keep macroing and you'll win" thing.
I also like the title, just a shame people are taking it too literally
thanks mate. Yeah I'm gonna end up changing the title to Winning in 40 DPM or less since the APM thing gets a few people really aggrivated when I'm not under.
On August 30 2012 06:41 ishyishy wrote: I think everyone should just play the game the way they enjoy it the most, and not worry so much about winning
For some reason everyone always thinks that they played poorly and that they are bad players if they lose, and that is unfortunate.
In the end, it is just a game and you should have fun. I always say if you can't glhf and gg every game, then you need to take a step back and think about how it's just a game that is meant for fun. Sometimes people will cheese, sometimes you will lose, but in the end just have fun learning and then winning will come to you.
On August 30 2012 07:48 BoZiffer wrote: Well done, sir. Looking forward to more videos. These are great.
Thank you sir.
On August 30 2012 08:43 EnE wrote: Sorry, but this is kind of dumb.
Just, play faster. Why bother trying to do things with 40 apm, just get faster.
I guess it's not for everyone. that being said, I'm not advocating anybody play slower. I'm just saying I'll play slower so it's easier for you to follow along.
On August 30 2012 08:56 Gianttt wrote: Watched one of your video's today for the first time. You're doing a great job for the community, keep up the good work.
I think ppl underestimate the value of this thread. The information youre providing us with is absolutely invaluable. I must say that this is probably the best thread on TL atm and thank you for putting so much into this!
By following these videos, ppl new to this game will be able to quicker get an understanding of the game and reach their limit at a steady pace – instead of playing 100s of hours in bronze (like I did) with minimal to none improvement between games. With these vids a strategically smart player will be able to apply his strategies to the game, without playing at 100 apm.
Could you do an example of a standard game, where you pause and point out WHEN you scout, WHAT youre looking for and HOW to react to it? (just show case one game, but maybe mention common reactions to other builds) maybe even for each matchup? (big project I know:/) thoughts? Keep up the good work!
However i think the most people don´t care about the topic "playing with less than 40 apm", but more about how can i hold matchup specific allins/cheese since that´s what most players have problems with in the lower leagues. Even i can get a lot of value out of your videos and i´m a master player with 130-140 APM. I can hold most allins but there were allways 1-2 tricks i could get from your videos, so really thanks for your hard work!
On August 30 2012 22:01 SweKenZo wrote: I think ppl underestimate the value of this thread. The information youre providing us with is absolutely invaluable. I must say that this is probably the best thread on TL atm and thank you for putting so much into this!
By following these videos, ppl new to this game will be able to quicker get an understanding of the game and reach their limit at a steady pace – instead of playing 100s of hours in bronze (like I did) with minimal to none improvement between games. With these vids a strategically smart player will be able to apply his strategies to the game, without playing at 100 apm.
Could you do an example of a standard game, where you pause and point out WHEN you scout, WHAT youre looking for and HOW to react to it? (just show case one game, but maybe mention common reactions to other builds) maybe even for each matchup? (big project I know:/) thoughts? Keep up the good work!
Thank you very much!!
I'll try to add some basic builds for each match up a little later, that's a good idea.
On August 31 2012 01:32 Sianos wrote: Keep up the good work!
However i think the most people don´t care about the topic "playing with less than 40 apm", but more about how can i hold matchup specific allins/cheese since that´s what most players have problems with in the lower leagues. Even i can get a lot of value out of your videos and i´m a master player with 130-140 APM. I can hold most allins but there were allways 1-2 tricks i could get from your videos, so really thanks for your hard work!
I'm glad it's proving helpful at all levels. I'm thinking of just changing the name to "Winning With Ease" but haven't quite decided if that's what I want the name to be.
Episode 23 is up by the way. I show how to defend against a 10 pool (with ling speed) but this time I showcase the best defense if you decide to send out a scout drone.
On September 01 2012 00:11 TheDougler wrote: Wow this is fantastic! I think this is something that could really help me as I just feel lost sometimes in PvT even without APM being a factor.
Thanks a lot man. Yeah I think people with high or low APM can hopefully benefit from this series.
New episode is up btw, defending the 1 base Immortal Sentry All In (TvP)
On a similar note, I have recorded defending a 2 base Immortal Sentry all in ZvP and will be uploading it tonight.
I have another suggestion if you're still taking requests:
Matchup: PvT My build: Parting's double expo 8 gate His build: CC First or 1 rax expo Comments: It would be awesome to see your decision making while executing the parting build up to the point of the 8 gate attack. The idea is that you open with a standard 1 gate FE, and transition into the Parting build upon scouting a greedy build. This is supposed to be one of the more difficult builds to execute.
LOL. The immortal allin is the one allin i never stopped once in a TvP and it´s awesome to see that 7! bunkers are needed to hold. But your theory is totally right, as long as you are ahead you can spamm those bunkers like you want and if you repell a push you can just salvage them and build your 3rd + additional barracks. I guess i´ll keep that in mind.
Edit: As for your naming issue i would suggest something like "Holding allins is easy", "How to hold allins" or even "How to get out of bronze/silver/gold whatever. " ^^
On September 01 2012 04:31 Salient wrote: I have another suggestion if you're still taking requests:
Matchup: PvT My build: Parting's double expo 8 gate His build: CC First or 1 rax expo Comments: It would be awesome to see your decision making while executing the parting build up to the point of the 8 gate attack. The idea is that you open with a standard 1 gate FE, and transition into the Parting build upon scouting a greedy build. This is supposed to be one of the more difficult builds to execute.
I'd be interested in learning what exactly you want for me to defend here
CC first/1 rax FE into a 10 min MMM push? earlier 8-9 min extra barracks push because he scouted your 3rd? Or do you simply want to see how the parting build is done (which would be a bit different from the rest of the series)
On September 01 2012 05:09 Sianos wrote: LOL. The immortal allin is the one allin i never stopped once in a TvP and it´s awesome to see that 7! bunkers are needed to hold. But your theory is totally right, as long as you are ahead you can spamm those bunkers like you want and if you repell a push you can just salvage them and build your 3rd + additional barracks. I guess i´ll keep that in mind.
Edit: As for your naming issue i would suggest something like "Holding allins is easy", "How to hold allins" or even "How to get out of bronze/silver/gold whatever. " ^^
Well hopefully in the future you can hold it with this (and let me know how it goes).
As for the naming thing, the names you suggest aren't bad, but the thing is that not all of these are allins and sometimes it's just a decent amount of pressure (like holding the 10 min MMM push that they take a 3rd behind).
I'd say I'm stuck between, "Winning With Ease" and "How to Hold Allins" right now.
Mr. Llama, your videos are making it harder and harder for me to all-in people.
Speaking of all-ins though, the one that I still find works wonders against people is the TvP 3rax before orbital, supply drop, scv all in build. I saw it first on a Kespa player's stream (he died to it), and somebody in chat said it was 12/13/13 rax with supply drop. My practice partner simply could not find a way to hold it short of blind countering it with cannons when I used it on him at a platinum level.
MVP did a version of it against Naniwa previous to his recent-ish GSL win on Entombed Valley. Any chance of a video on shutting that down?
On September 01 2012 09:09 Natespank wrote: Mr. Llama, your videos are making it harder and harder for me to all-in people.
Speaking of all-ins though, the one that I still find works wonders against people is the TvP 3rax before orbital, supply drop, scv all in build. I saw it first on a Kespa player's stream (he died to it), and somebody in chat said it was 12/13/13 rax with supply drop. My practice partner simply could not find a way to hold it short of blind countering it with cannons when I used it on him at a platinum level.
MVP did a version of it against Naniwa previous to his recent-ish GSL win on Entombed Valley. Any chance of a video on shutting that down?
Great work so far!
haha I apologize for making your starcraft life more difficult.
I'll have to look into that 3 rax build more. those early rax can be extremely strong so I'll have to check the timings on it and see how pros hold it and what could be an easy way to show others how to hold it.
btw, new episode is up: Holding Immortal Sentry all in (ZvP)
On September 01 2012 04:31 Salient wrote: I have another suggestion if you're still taking requests:
Matchup: PvT My build: Parting's double expo 8 gate His build: CC First or 1 rax expo Comments: It would be awesome to see your decision making while executing the parting build up to the point of the 8 gate attack. The idea is that you open with a standard 1 gate FE, and transition into the Parting build upon scouting a greedy build. This is supposed to be one of the more difficult builds to execute.
I'd be interested in learning what exactly you want for me to defend here
CC first/1 rax FE into a 10 min MMM push? earlier 8-9 min extra barracks push because he scouted your 3rd? Or do you simply want to see how the parting build is done (which would be a bit different from the rest of the series)
On September 01 2012 05:09 Sianos wrote: LOL. The immortal allin is the one allin i never stopped once in a TvP and it´s awesome to see that 7! bunkers are needed to hold. But your theory is totally right, as long as you are ahead you can spamm those bunkers like you want and if you repell a push you can just salvage them and build your 3rd + additional barracks. I guess i´ll keep that in mind.
Edit: As for your naming issue i would suggest something like "Holding allins is easy", "How to hold allins" or even "How to get out of bronze/silver/gold whatever. " ^^
Well hopefully in the future you can hold it with this (and let me know how it goes).
As for the naming thing, the names you suggest aren't bad, but the thing is that not all of these are allins and sometimes it's just a decent amount of pressure (like holding the 10 min MMM push that they take a 3rd behind).
I'd say I'm stuck between, "Winning With Ease" and "How to Hold Allins" right now.
I mostly just wanted to see how it's possible to stay alive vs bio pushes when doing the Parting double expo. It seems like you should be too spread out to defend all three bases from bio pushes that hit before all your gateways are up and your bases saturated. So I guess that would be where he goes for extra barracks and pushes to punish the early 3rd.
Mr. Llama, these videos aren't bad but I would request that some of the really hard-to-win-against builds be re-done with a more difficult opponent. Your immortal/sentry opponent was almost 110 seconds late with his 3 immortal push. That push should be arriving right around 10:00-10:30.
If you would like, I can ask several real-life friends of mine who are Grandmasters of various ranks to do the 3 immortal push against you and you can show us there how you beat it. Your zerg is around my level and I would really like to see someone beat the push when executed by GM or higher. PM me if you're interested in having higher-level opponents to show these defenses off against.
On September 01 2012 04:31 Salient wrote: I have another suggestion if you're still taking requests:
Matchup: PvT My build: Parting's double expo 8 gate His build: CC First or 1 rax expo Comments: It would be awesome to see your decision making while executing the parting build up to the point of the 8 gate attack. The idea is that you open with a standard 1 gate FE, and transition into the Parting build upon scouting a greedy build. This is supposed to be one of the more difficult builds to execute.
I'd be interested in learning what exactly you want for me to defend here
CC first/1 rax FE into a 10 min MMM push? earlier 8-9 min extra barracks push because he scouted your 3rd? Or do you simply want to see how the parting build is done (which would be a bit different from the rest of the series)
On September 01 2012 05:09 Sianos wrote: LOL. The immortal allin is the one allin i never stopped once in a TvP and it´s awesome to see that 7! bunkers are needed to hold. But your theory is totally right, as long as you are ahead you can spamm those bunkers like you want and if you repell a push you can just salvage them and build your 3rd + additional barracks. I guess i´ll keep that in mind.
Edit: As for your naming issue i would suggest something like "Holding allins is easy", "How to hold allins" or even "How to get out of bronze/silver/gold whatever. " ^^
Well hopefully in the future you can hold it with this (and let me know how it goes).
As for the naming thing, the names you suggest aren't bad, but the thing is that not all of these are allins and sometimes it's just a decent amount of pressure (like holding the 10 min MMM push that they take a 3rd behind).
I'd say I'm stuck between, "Winning With Ease" and "How to Hold Allins" right now.
I mostly just wanted to see how it's possible to stay alive vs bio pushes when doing the Parting double expo. It seems like you should be too spread out to defend all three bases from bio pushes that hit before all your gateways are up and your bases saturated. So I guess that would be where he goes for extra barracks and pushes to punish the early 3rd.
Alright I'll have him go for an 8-9 min push before medivacs and with extra rax to try and punish the early 3rd.
On September 01 2012 10:47 sCCrooked wrote: Mr. Llama, these videos aren't bad but I would request that some of the really hard-to-win-against builds be re-done with a more difficult opponent. Your immortal/sentry opponent was almost 110 seconds late with his 3 immortal push. That push should be arriving right around 10:00-10:30.
If you would like, I can ask several real-life friends of mine who are Grandmasters of various ranks to do the 3 immortal push against you and you can show us there how you beat it. Your zerg is around my level and I would really like to see someone beat the push when executed by GM or higher. PM me if you're interested in having higher-level opponents to show these defenses off against.
I'd be willing to play against a GM who pushes out earlier, that being said you also have to note that his push will contain less units. (Where as my opponent saw that I had a mass amount of lings so he waited to get 2 rounds of zealots in first before making his push, hence the delay).
My opponents push contained, 3 immortals, 1 stalker, 19 zealots, and 17 sentries (because like I said, he waited)
Taking a look at Grubby's push, he had 3 immortals, 10 stalkers, 8 sentries, and 2 zealots (but he also was fighting vs mostly roaches and not lings). His push hit at 10:30.
Thus the difference in supplies were my opponent hit with 34 more supply in units than grubby did, but he hit 110 seconds later since he knew he needed zealots to be effective vs my army.
Off of 7 gates (14 supply per warp), it was basically 2 1/2 warp ins extra of units that he took (plus he is only high masters and not GM or pro like grubby).
All in all, I'd say the strength of my opponent was still extremely strong. It hit later but it was a much higher army value that included a delay because of his reaction to my tech choice. I think it could've been a little bit better had a GM or pro player done it but it definitely was representative of a mid-high masters push. That being said, I'd still be willing to play one of your buddies and try to defend it. I'm not a GM though so it's possible they simply win by just being really good GM players with better mechanics and micro than me.
Well although his push will contain slightly less units, also remember you will be just starting to get an army together. The real problem with this push when its executed well is really the timing. When you have between minute mark 8 and minute mark 12 (+some seconds) to get lots of units, their push becomes significantly less threatening.
That being said, its also really important since Immortal/Sentry is one of THE biggest things Zergs are having difficulty with to see its "proper defense" being done against a proper timing with good macro and follow-up being done behind it.
I wasn't being sarcastic with my statement of wanting to see you counter it either. I absolutely hate this push. It forces me to base-trade and hope he doesn't pay enough attention to what in his army is firing at what and his destruction of my bases is slightly slower than mine of his (although 3 immortals kill buildings really freaking fast). If ling/festor could work against the 2 and 3 immortal timings, I really want to know about it.
However since my practice is almost all entirely GM or 1600+ points master, I have to see it against good timings. I've seen someone breaking a really fast 3 base toss with festor/ling drops and it was really neat to see someone come up with something out of the ordinary roach/ling bore-fest we currently are dealing with. I have tried my own version of festor/ling before against immo/sentry because I thought fungals might be the key, but my GM friends showed me that with proper timing, its a lot scarier to deal with because you have so few forces.
I also think its really important to see someone who has really good positioning and micro with his push too. Without that, yeah any immo/sentry can be crushed if they suck, but I'd rather not base advice on "well if they suck, do action x".
I'll contact them tomorrow and see if one of the P will play you during one of our practice sessions sometime. Let me know when a good time in the next say 2 weeks or so would be for you~
*Note* I just looked through 35 replays of vs immo/sentry in my rep folder. The Ps consistently had 3 immortals, 12 sentries, 1 stalker, 5 zealots, 1 warpprism, 1 observer (on its way across the map) and +1 weapons completed with +2 on the way. This all arrives at your front (not leaving their base, its AT your bases attacking your stuff already) around 9:45-10:00. Your opponent had many more zealots, but remember those warp-ins could've been happening at your front while he lets both his army and the timing he hits to deal optimal damage.
On September 01 2012 11:56 sCCrooked wrote: Well although his push will contain slightly less units, also remember you will be just starting to get an army together. The real problem with this push when its executed well is really the timing. When you have between minute mark 8 and minute mark 12 (+some seconds) to get lots of units, their push becomes significantly less threatening.
That being said, its also really important since Immortal/Sentry is one of THE biggest things Zergs are having difficulty with to see its "proper defense" being done against a proper timing with good macro and follow-up being done behind it.
I wasn't being sarcastic with my statement of wanting to see you counter it either. I absolutely hate this push. It forces me to base-trade and hope he doesn't pay enough attention to what in his army is firing at what and his destruction of my bases is slightly slower than mine of his (although 3 immortals kill buildings really freaking fast). If ling/festor could work against the 2 and 3 immortal timings, I really want to know about it.
However since my practice is almost all entirely GM or 1600+ points master, I have to see it against good timings. I've seen someone breaking a really fast 3 base toss with festor/ling drops and it was really neat to see someone come up with something out of the ordinary roach/ling bore-fest we currently are dealing with. I have tried my own version of festor/ling before against immo/sentry because I thought fungals might be the key, but my GM friends showed me that with proper timing, its a lot scarier to deal with because you have so few forces.
I also think its really important to see someone who has really good positioning and micro with his push too. Without that, yeah any immo/sentry can be crushed if they suck, but I'd rather not base advice on "well if they suck, do action x".
I'll contact them tomorrow and see if one of the P will play you during one of our practice sessions sometime. Let me know when a good time in the next say 2 weeks or so would be for you~
*Note* I just looked through 35 replays of vs immo/sentry in my rep folder. The Ps consistently had 3 immortals, 12 sentries, 1 stalker, 5 zealots, 1 warpprism, 1 observer (on its way across the map) and +1 weapons completed with +2 on the way. This all arrives at your front (not leaving their base, its AT your bases attacking your stuff already) around 9:45-10:00. Your opponent had many more zealots, but remember those warp-ins could've been happening at your front while he lets both his army and the timing he hits to deal optimal damage.
I'm very surprised to hear 9:45-10:00 is when the push hit considering from when I watch the pros it more often hits at 10:30. My assumption is that the people you're playing are opting to hit with a weaker army at a faster time while the pros have found that a 10:30 hit with the 1 additional warp in is maybe stronger? Not sure, I'd have to talk with them to understand their reasoning for that.
I do agree that the 10:30 hit would probably be scarier though because I'll have less forces. I think for this I'd have to grab an even faster lair, maybe cut a couple more drones, and then hope to have enough army out in time. the problem is it's really hard to find a good way to defeat this because whenever I watch pros, I never see a zerg truly defend it...he either loses, the protoss makes a mistake, or the zerg drops down to 2 bases with 20 spines in his natural while he techs to mutas and base trades. It'd definitely take some testing but I think that my video for now is a great way to hold (and really hold) a non-sentry immortal GM push.
Yeah just hit me up and let me know what they say. I can't play tomorrow because I'm going out of town for labor day weekend so it'd either have to be right now or next week sometime.
No problem. They're all taking it easy for Labor Day weekend too so they probably won't play this weekend. However all next week we're supposed to be in practice so I'll ask them then. I'll PM you on here when I get a response so we can coordinate. Oh, and if you're a follower of the foreign scene, you'll know quite a few of the guys. A lot of them are WCS finalists/national champions so it could be argued you'll be showing us a video vs active progamer.
I don't even care if they transition out of it somehow, just as long as you somehow don't die to this certain *!@&ing timing, I'll know the composition can deal with the timing and thus I can go back to experimenting/tweaking it.
On September 01 2012 12:18 sCCrooked wrote: No problem. They're all taking it easy for Labor Day weekend too so they probably won't play this weekend. However all next week we're supposed to be in practice so I'll ask them then. I'll PM you on here when I get a response so we can coordinate. Oh, and if you're a follower of the foreign scene, you'll know quite a few of the guys. A lot of them are WCS finalists/national champions so it could be argued you'll be showing us a video vs active progamer.
I don't even care if they transition out of it somehow, just as long as you somehow don't die to this certain *!@&ing timing, I'll know the composition can deal with the timing and thus I can go back to experimenting/tweaking it.
Believe me, just surviving is good enough. Definitely one of the strongest pushes in the game right now.
Also, here's an episode I recorded a couple of days ago that I figured could be added to the series. It was in response to the ZvP Ramp block that belial88 added a few days ago
Matchup: TvT My build: 1 rax fe into 3 rax into reactor medivacs His build: Cloak Banshee opening into marine,siegetank,banshee scv allin Maps: Like Shakuras Plateau where Banshee play is strong Comment: The problem with this allin is that the cloak banshees give him total mapcontrol, which makes it almost impossible to see his push comming and catch it right in the middle of the map. Another problem is that his banshees can bind some of your marines in your minerallines even if you make 1 turret at each base, which reduce the force you can throw at him when you finally see his marines, siegetanks and scvs comming. I never hold it once. Replay: TvT_Shakuras This is just a sample, since i don´t play very much i have very few replays of this allin, but it gives you a rough idea. The version where he pushes out a bit later with more stuff and all his scvs is a lot harder to defend then the version the player used aggainst me in this replay. He even ddin´t got the cloak upgrade, i think because i scanned his banshee build.
On September 01 2012 14:29 SeAK wrote: any terrans in masters with under 50 apm?
It's amazing how many people completely miss the point of what the OP is doing, even though he's explained it over and again and is a very simple concept. Hopefully the thread rename will help remove the pointless discussions.
On September 01 2012 14:29 SeAK wrote: any terrans in masters with under 50 apm?
It's amazing how many people completely miss the point of what the OP is doing, even though he's explained it over and again and is a very simple concept. Hopefully the thread rename will help remove the pointless discussions.
Haha yeah that's why I simply changed the name. People focused too much on the APM instead of the decision making so I figured Winning With Ease was more suitable and could help get people more on track.
On September 01 2012 18:04 Sianos wrote: Hi MrLlama,
i have a request for video.
Matchup: TvT My build: 1 rax fe into 3 rax into reactor medivacs His build: Cloak Banshee opening into marine,siegetank,banshee scv allin Maps: Like Shakuras Plateau where Banshee play is strong Comment: The problem with this allin is that the cloak banshees give him total mapcontrol, which makes it almost impossible to see his push comming and catch it right in the middle of the map. Another problem is that his banshees can bind some of your marines in your minerallines even if you make 1 turret at each base, which reduce the force you can throw at him when you finally see his marines, siegetanks and scvs comming. I never hold it once. Replay: TvT_Shakuras This is just a sample, since i don´t play very much i have very few replays of this allin, but it gives you a rough idea. The version where he pushes out a bit later with more stuff and all his scvs is a lot harder to defend then the version the player used aggainst me in this replay. He even ddin´t got the cloak upgrade, i think because i scanned his banshee build.
Okay so you want me to have him push out a little later with more stuff. Any specific number of banshees/tanks/marines you want him to push with or just kinda ballpark it?
Cool series. If you're out of ideas I'd like to see how do you defend the following: - proxy 2 gate (10, 11) as protoss with 13 gate scout and as zerg with 15 pool - 4 gate warp prism as terran doing 1 rax FE, the robo maybe proxied so you have 7 zealots and a stalker in your main at 6:30
On August 07 2012 05:39 ishyishy wrote: I might be a minority, but I have never enjoyed or have been interested in discussing APM. I feel like almost everyone talks about APM way too much. A lot of people over-value it, to the point of trying to insult other players because they have low APM in whatever league (like for example I have under 60 effective APM, but I was in masters for 3 seasons, and all i got was "how did you get to masters, you are terrible, you need 150 apm minimum for this and that, oh yu play protoss no wonder...").
When I see a caster or an observer show the APM tab in a tournament match, and they go into how much ap each player has, it actually annoys me. I would rather hear almost anything else in the beginning of a match when nothing is going on; like who the players are, who their team is, what tournaments they won in the past, etc.
I feel like you can just say "you can slow down your APM if you use it more effectively instead of mindless spam" and be done with it. What else is there to say on effective APM? You cant really teach people how to use APM by telling them on a forum or a video, the player needs to make the decision to do it. It seems like somethng you learn by doing, rather than theory crafting about it, which is another reason I dont feel like there is much to discuss about it.
Im no pro, but I dont see how APM relates to strategy at all. Obviously you cant be "too slow" because a certain skill level of mechanics is needed to play amoung the best, but in general it doesnt explain what the player is doing or is going to do during the game. I never hear "oh well if you do this build, you want around 200 apm. If you go for this build, you want 120."
This is just my opinion on the subject of your show or blog or whatever. If you can make a show with this subject interesting or entertaining, then I will be impressed lol. Good luck.
I totally agree with this. However there are sometimes that seeing the apm is quite impressive. It was Taeja in one of the IPTL games were he was microing 3 different armies in different parts of the map and they showed his apm. I was impressed that he could micro that well. But as for apm per league i think thats really stupid.
On September 02 2012 12:46 fawkz wrote: this thread is treating the syptoms of a sickness without treating the sickness itself.
Jesus Christ. No, it's doing completely the opposite. It doesn't matter how many times you can meaninglessly box your mineral line, alternate between different location keybinds, and click on a unit. What matters is winning. Meaningless actions do not help you win, which is why we have two different metrics (EAPM and APM.) I can spam 300+ APM and suck horribly, because most of them will be redundant or otherwise ineffectual. The point of this is to increase your ratio of EAPM/APM so when you do start playing very quickly, your actions actually count.
Quick note: I'm currently away for a wedding over Labor Day so I won't be able to post up another video until Tuesday (hence why I rushed out a bunch Friday). Until then I'll simply be limited to discussion and listening to any ideas that you have for future videos/things you need help with.
On September 02 2012 11:10 habermas wrote: Cool series. If you're out of ideas I'd like to see how do you defend the following: - proxy 2 gate (10, 11) as protoss with 13 gate scout and as zerg with 15 pool - 4 gate warp prism as terran doing 1 rax FE, the robo maybe proxied so you have 7 zealots and a stalker in yourac main at 6:30
thank you. Definitely not out of ideas but those are good ones to add to the list. I'll definitely be doing 2gate for every race.
On September 02 2012 11:14 Walitgon wrote: If you get infestors out in time for the sentry immortal all-in, they executed it wrong.
I am going to be redoing this one where he doesn't wait for more warp ins of zealots to deal with my lings and instead hits with the push at the proper time. It's still useful because I'll probably go about the same idea, but the actual hold will be different so yes you are correct.
On September 02 2012 12:22 ODKStevez wrote: This is really useful, thank you showed this to a few friends that are having trouble with them nasty 6-8 gates xD
Thank you, I'm glad you found it useful and hopefully your friends can learn from it as well!
On September 02 2012 12:46 fawkz wrote: this thread is treating the syptoms of a sickness without treating the sickness itself.
Jesus Christ. No, it's doing completely the opposite. It doesn't matter how many times you can meaninglessly box your mineral line, alternate between different location keybinds, and click on a unit. What matters is winning. Meaningless actions do not help you win, which is why we have two different metrics (EAPM and APM.) I can spam 300+ APM and suck horribly, because most of them will be redundant or otherwise ineffectual. The point of this is to increase your ratio of EAPM/APM so when you do start playing very quickly, your actions actually count.
Thank you for recognizing what I'm trying to do. This is definitely correct because I'm not trying to slow down your apm and make you bad or say you need X apm to hold something or anything like that really, I'm just trying to show you how important decision making is and how to efficiently use your APM so that you can make better decision and more decisions.
On episode 6 (defending sase style 3gate after expo) the protoss player that did it made quite a few mistakes. It hit about 30 seconds late and should have had another sentry in there, and he should have popped a gaurdian shield. The guardian shield makes all the difference and that 30 seconds would have too. I think you would have lost if the other guy performed the sase build better.
I think the best thing to do to defend against this is to scout around the outside your base with an scv to see if he has a couple units or a pylon. Also in that video you see his zealot run to the side after getting hit by the bunker. This isn't huge but the fact that he didnt run back to the xelnaga or something indicates that in his mind he has a reason to be close (his proxy pylon and a group of units gathering).
I love this thread and guide.. I've played over 7500 games and this is how my APM goes in game:
early game - 20-30 mid game - 90-100 late game - 150-250
My average APM ends up being around 100 every game, but I don't spam useless keystrokes either. My feelings on APM are that it is required when needed, but it isn't something you need to spam all game.
This guide makes me more inclined to try out greedier builds like Hatch first, 1gate FE and 1rax FE, now that I know I can hold early attacks without stupidly high APM.
On September 01 2012 14:29 SeAK wrote: any terrans in masters with under 50 apm?
It's amazing how many people completely miss the point of what the OP is doing, even though he's explained it over and again and is a very simple concept. Hopefully the thread rename will help remove the pointless discussions.
Haha yeah that's why I simply changed the name. People focused too much on the APM instead of the decision making so I figured Winning With Ease was more suitable and could help get people more on track.
On September 01 2012 18:04 Sianos wrote: Hi MrLlama,
i have a request for video.
Matchup: TvT My build: 1 rax fe into 3 rax into reactor medivacs His build: Cloak Banshee opening into marine,siegetank,banshee scv allin Maps: Like Shakuras Plateau where Banshee play is strong Comment: The problem with this allin is that the cloak banshees give him total mapcontrol, which makes it almost impossible to see his push comming and catch it right in the middle of the map. Another problem is that his banshees can bind some of your marines in your minerallines even if you make 1 turret at each base, which reduce the force you can throw at him when you finally see his marines, siegetanks and scvs comming. I never hold it once. Replay: TvT_Shakuras This is just a sample, since i don´t play very much i have very few replays of this allin, but it gives you a rough idea. The version where he pushes out a bit later with more stuff and all his scvs is a lot harder to defend then the version the player used aggainst me in this replay. He even ddin´t got the cloak upgrade, i think because i scanned his banshee build.
Okay so you want me to have him push out a little later with more stuff. Any specific number of banshees/tanks/marines you want him to push with or just kinda ballpark it?
Don´t know. Perhaps with like 2 or 3 tanks and 2-3 banshees and some marines and a lot of scvs. The number´s doesn´t matter that much it´s just the clumping attack with marines and scvs which gives me problems.
On September 02 2012 15:09 Carmine wrote: On episode 6 (defending sase style 3gate after expo) the protoss player that did it made quite a few mistakes. It hit about 30 seconds late and should have had another sentry in there, and he should have popped a gaurdian shield. The guardian shield makes all the difference and that 30 seconds would have too. I think you would have lost if the other guy performed the sase build better.
I think the best thing to do to defend against this is to scout around the outside your base with an scv to see if he has a couple units or a pylon. Also in that video you see his zealot run to the side after getting hit by the bunker. This isn't huge but the fact that he didnt run back to the xelnaga or something indicates that in his mind he has a reason to be close (his proxy pylon and a group of units gathering).
1. It probably did hit a little bit late, that being said I'm only playing vs mid-high masters so they aren't going to be GM pushes that are optimized like the pros everytime. 2. I still think I wouldn't held, even with guardian shield. This is for two reasons. The first reason is because I still had another bunker that was up behind my first one that he never even touched. With G shield he could've made contact with this bunker but I still would've held. The 2nd reason is because you can focus fire with a bunker by selecting it and pressing Attack then a unit. Had he popped G shield, I would've very very quickly have focus fired down the sentry and that would've been no problem in a couple of seconds. I also could've pulled more scvs had I needed them (assuming he hit a little earlier).
And yes it's very good to get a scout outside your base to see the pylon, but I could say that for 1/2 of these guides. I'm trying to show what to do in the event that you don't get the scout out there (they kill it or they hide their proxy pylon or whatever). Otherwise I could say, "Okay so you found the proxy pylon, killed it, and now he's not doing the attack anymore so....that's how you defend it). Maybe I'll talk about that more in the videos though that they can easily nullify the attack with a scout, but they won't always find it and need to be prepared if they can't.
I can't believe this is the first time I've seen this thread! Thank you. I play random so this is especially helpful.
I think the biggest thing is just seeing how to handle stuff one or two times. It may take 100 times if I experiment myself, but if I know what I"m supposed to be going for and what my real goals are it makes it doable.
APM grows with you skill lvl. Also its not nessacarly mindless spam even though you spam. The more you play and the more games you grind. The spam goes away and it fills in with actual actions! That how i was taught to play broodwar. Playing sc2 now as a masters zerg i play approx. 280APM and 240 EAPM. as when sc2 first came out i play at like 150APM but it was only like 50 EAPM. Keep your hands warm is important and that what spam does so when you need to do something FAST you hands have been moving and it shouldnt be a problem. The more you play the higher APM. if you want to be fast get APM alert that is in SC2 Gears. set it to a little high then you play and force your self to play higher for a few or 2 you will find it spam at first but not so much after the 2 weeks.
On September 02 2012 23:50 thurst0n wrote: I can't believe this is the first time I've seen this thread! Thank you. I play random so this is especially helpful.
I think the biggest thing is just seeing how to handle stuff one or two times. It may take 100 times if I experiment myself, but if I know what I"m supposed to be going for and what my real goals are it makes it doable.
Glad it is helpful for you! Seeing it is definitely better in my mind whenever I learn (and a majority of people are visual learners).
On September 03 2012 02:58 superbarnie wrote: I suggest you make a guide for how to defend against DT rush when you do a no gas fast expand.
Okay sure thing. I'm going to assume he is proxying it somewhere I don't scout, but is there anything else you would like specifically? Like a specific time to get my engineering bay down or something? Because a lot of it simply is looking at your opponents, army, lack of a natural, and double gas and then knowing to watch out and save scans/get a turret up to be prepared.
On September 03 2012 03:48 Calypso123 wrote: APM grows with you skill lvl. Also its not nessacarly mindless spam even though you spam. The more you play and the more games you grind. The spam goes away and it fills in with actual actions! That how i was taught to play broodwar. Playing sc2 now as a masters zerg i play approx. 280APM and 240 EAPM. as when sc2 first came out i play at like 150APM but it was only like 50 EAPM. Keep your hands warm is important and that what spam does so when you need to do something FAST you hands have been moving and it shouldnt be a problem. The more you play the higher APM. if you want to be fast get APM alert that is in SC2 Gears. set it to a little high then you play and force your self to play higher for a few or 2 you will find it spam at first but not so much after the 2 weeks.
I'm not going to say whether my method is better or worse, I simply think they both are different theories that float around. Of course when you get higher up you will be using the spam to stay warm and such, I think we can all agree on that. In terms of spamming to get better though, I think understanding the game through proper decision making takes precedence and then as you understand it, you will increase your apm because you'll make the right action the first time and then have time to do something else as well. Just different opinions though, I don't think either is wrong.
On September 02 2012 12:46 fawkz wrote: this thread is treating the syptoms of a sickness without treating the sickness itself.
Jesus Christ. No, it's doing completely the opposite. It doesn't matter how many times you can meaninglessly box your mineral line, alternate between different location keybinds, and click on a unit. What matters is winning. Meaningless actions do not help you win, which is why we have two different metrics (EAPM and APM.) I can spam 300+ APM and suck horribly, because most of them will be redundant or otherwise ineffectual. The point of this is to increase your ratio of EAPM/APM so when you do start playing very quickly, your actions actually count.
EPM is actually more useless than APM, because it doesn't measure at all your macro cycles, which mind you, are really important.
Anyways good job OP, i have way more than 40 apm, but what i lack is decission making
On September 03 2012 03:48 Calypso123 wrote: APM grows with you skill lvl. Also its not nessacarly mindless spam even though you spam. The more you play and the more games you grind. The spam goes away and it fills in with actual actions! That how i was taught to play broodwar. Playing sc2 now as a masters zerg i play approx. 280APM and 240 EAPM. as when sc2 first came out i play at like 150APM but it was only like 50 EAPM. Keep your hands warm is important and that what spam does so when you need to do something FAST you hands have been moving and it shouldnt be a problem. The more you play the higher APM. if you want to be fast get APM alert that is in SC2 Gears. set it to a little high then you play and force your self to play higher for a few or 2 you will find it spam at first but not so much after the 2 weeks.
Sure. But being able to theoretically move fast is no good if I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm more likely to freeze up completely. The video series just lays out the bare minimum actions needed to hold off an attack.
On September 03 2012 03:48 Calypso123 wrote: APM grows with you skill lvl. Also its not nessacarly mindless spam even though you spam. The more you play and the more games you grind. The spam goes away and it fills in with actual actions! That how i was taught to play broodwar. Playing sc2 now as a masters zerg i play approx. 280APM and 240 EAPM. as when sc2 first came out i play at like 150APM but it was only like 50 EAPM. Keep your hands warm is important and that what spam does so when you need to do something FAST you hands have been moving and it shouldnt be a problem. The more you play the higher APM. if you want to be fast get APM alert that is in SC2 Gears. set it to a little high then you play and force your self to play higher for a few or 2 you will find it spam at first but not so much after the 2 weeks.
Sure. But being able to theoretically move fast is no good if I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm more likely to freeze up completely. The video series just lays out the bare minimum actions needed to hold off an attack.
That's kind of my thinking. I can be moving at 300 apm in the wrong direction if I don't know what I'm doing. Or for every right action I could make 2 incorrect ones that screw me up. I feel it's just better to understand the game more when you play, plus it's more fun when you watch because you can understand strategies better and how the timing attacks work and such.
Thank you so much for this series. My decision making is not the best, and this has helped me win games that I know for sure I would have otherwise lost. Keep it up jabroni.
I'd love if you could do a guide on stopping a 2gate zealot rush in PvP while still doing a somewhat normal build. Like say the 3 stalker rush. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Stalker_Rush_(vs._Protoss) I had a game where I scouted the Protoss, didn't see a core, panicked and built a 2nd gateway instead of the build I was going for. Turns out he was just bad and dropped his core at 18, but then I lost to a 4gate as my own core and gas was way late. If I knew I could stop it while playing standard(ish) or doing a smaller alteration it wouldn't be nearly as bad.
On September 04 2012 05:54 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I'd love if you could do a guide on stopping a 2gate zealot rush in PvP while still doing a somewhat normal build. Like say the 3 stalker rush. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Stalker_Rush_(vs._Protoss) I had a game where I scouted the Protoss, didn't see a core, panicked and built a 2nd gateway instead of the build I was going for. Turns out he was just bad and dropped his core at 18, but then I lost to a 4gate as my own core and gas was way late. If I knew I could stop it while playing standard(ish) or doing a smaller alteration it wouldn't be nearly as bad.
of course. I'll be doing a lot of 2 gate coverage this week so I'll make sure to get to that.
I like the general idea, watched a few videos, but some are not really according to topic.
A Zerg should never get 3 Pylon blocked in the first place with 1 drone patrolling at 15 and another one chasing the probe and eventually building a hatch.
Your ZvP Immortal Sentry allin hits at 12:30. Of course you have infestors out by then and roflstomp all day over this. A proper immortal sentry allin hits at 10:30. The protoss in your video just built sentry/Immos and attacked when he felt like it at some point, this is by no means an immortal sentry allin. If the allin hits you at 10:30 and you invested in a shitton of tech which isn't even ready (upgrades / infestation pit), you straight out lose to this.
I also feel like you lost way too much in that 11/11 rax. Sadly you didn't pull up the units lost or worker count, but you lose way too many drones. Remember you can't actually choose to disengage with zerg having slow melee units and terran having range 5 units. You lose stuff on the way in AND on the way out.
In so many of those videos, your opponent is playing bad and you'd lose if that wasn't the case. Prime example is 10pool vs hatchfirst vid, 10pool doesn't lose ever.
I'd like to play some games against you and we can see if "holding X with ease" is right. :p
On September 04 2012 18:07 HoMM wrote: In so many of those videos, your opponent is playing bad and you'd lose if that wasn't the case. Prime example is 10pool vs hatchfirst vid, 10pool doesn't lose ever.
I'd like to play some games against you and we can see if "holding X with ease" is right. :p
in your prime example, that's actually a bad example because you can hold 10 pool vs hatch first...not only in the game that I showed, but there are many pro games that I've watched/casted where a 10 pool is held by a blind 15 hatch. The big thing is simply being able to micro the drones properly. What I've never seen is a 15 hatch hold a 10 pool WITH drones pulled (where he brings 8 drones, his lings, and drops a spine). As of now that's the only way a 10 pool will auto win from what I've seen.
On September 04 2012 18:01 Mahtasooma wrote: I like the general idea, watched a few videos, but some are not really according to topic.
A Zerg should never get 3 Pylon blocked in the first place with 1 drone patrolling at 15 and another one chasing the probe and eventually building a hatch.
Your ZvP Immortal Sentry allin hits at 12:30. Of course you have infestors out by then and roflstomp all day over this. A proper immortal sentry allin hits at 10:30. The protoss in your video just built sentry/Immos and attacked when he felt like it at some point, this is by no means an immortal sentry allin. If the allin hits you at 10:30 and you invested in a shitton of tech which isn't even ready (upgrades / infestation pit), you straight out lose to this.
I also feel like you lost way too much in that 11/11 rax. Sadly you didn't pull up the units lost or worker count, but you lose way too many drones. Remember you can't actually choose to disengage with zerg having slow melee units and terran having range 5 units. You lose stuff on the way in AND on the way out.
While I will agree with your sentry immortal all in comments (and that's why I'm remaking that video this week), I think it's silly to say something like you should never get 3 pylon blocked. Everybody gets pylon blocked at some time in their life and it's good to have an understanding of how the game flows when it happens rather than just ignoring it.
Example: http://de.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/330792766 << stephano is pylon blocked in, basically has a similar reaction to my pylon/forge block where he gets upgrades, grabs his lair, gets speed/infestors, and holds it off. His order is a bit different but it's still a good show that even the top zerg player in the world gets pylon blocked. Not everyone wants to waste their time/economy patrolling a drone if they can just know how to react once a situation occurs.
In the 11/11 rax I did what was necessary, aka holding it off. You could simply say, "Well every zerg should scout the typical 11/11 rax positions when he scouts and then you wouldn't have this problem" and sure it's good to try and scout those, but you aren't always going to find it and it's good to have an idea of how to hold. And the pullback was necessary in my opinion because I would've lost too all my drones had I stayed and then had nothing to recover with. 11/11 is one of the hardest early cheeses to hold and very much depends on how many scvs he pulls. Also, if you do scout it early, you can just go 14/14 and hard counter it, but that's too easy to show.
A pro needs to cut every corner he can, but for anything below top grandmaster, it's always worth it to patrol that drone for some 20seconds. I never get 3 pylon blocked. Pulling two drones makes it much harder for the drone to pylon block your expo, too. Whatever you do, you will always be behind after cannon block and anything after that is extremely gimmicky and luck dependant. If he went blink stalker off of that instead of immo/sentry (which is pointless), it'd have been GG.
I agree with your 11/11 rax statements, it's really hard to defend. I think you were behind but you still end up winning, which is cool. It's of course impossible to scout the location of the double rax reliably and I agree with your 9drone pull. Defending 11/11 is always wonky.
On September 05 2012 00:13 Mahtasooma wrote: A pro needs to cut every corner he can, but for anything below top grandmaster, it's always worth it to patrol that drone for some 20seconds. I never get 3 pylon blocked. Pulling two drones makes it much harder for the drone to pylon block your expo, too. Whatever you do, you will always be behind after cannon block and anything after that is extremely gimmicky and luck dependant. If he went blink stalker off of that instead of immo/sentry (which is pointless), it'd have been GG.
If you think it'd be GG, I recommend you watch the episode defending the forge/pylon block where he goes blink stalker against me and loses. I don't think you are behind after a cannon block, you just need to get your upgrades and lair and then expand after (or if you can hide a hatchery you can go 2 base muta or nydus or drops or anything).
And not all players patrol the drone, so I'm showing all of those players who do not do that what they can do if they get 3 pylon blocked instead of just panicking and pulling all their drones.
What's with the last few pages of this thread focusing on criticism?
The fact is that Llama's strategies are strong reactions against the all-ins presented in this series. If a silver player uses the strategies to defend low silver all-ins, he'll do well; then, it's on the all-in player to learn to all-in better, with micro and build adjustments; then it's on the defender again to take it up yet another notch, and so on. This goes all the way up until you're Marine King Prime, who can cheese and defend cheese like he's got super powers.
Here's a few defenses which are awesome btw: (free today, maybe later this week, due to anniversary)
I can beat a lot of guys who use llama's strategies, and I lose to a lot too- people are watching his videos. A lot of it is execution- typically, they die after making some big mistake or another, or I die after I make a mistake.
On September 05 2012 08:18 Natespank wrote: What's with the last few pages of this thread focusing on criticism?
The fact is that Llama's strategies are strong reactions against the all-ins presented in this series. If a silver player uses the strategies to defend low silver all-ins, he'll do well; then, it's on the all-in player to learn to all-in better, with micro and build adjustments; then it's on the defender again to take it up yet another notch, and so on. This goes all the way up until you're Marine King Prime, who can cheese and defend cheese like he's got super powers.
Here's a few defenses which are awesome btw: (free today, maybe later this week, due to anniversary)
I can beat a lot of guys who use llama's strategies, and I lose to a lot too- people are watching his videos. A lot of it is execution- typically, they die after making some big mistake or another, or I die after I make a mistake.
As one of the ones who was a bit criticizing, I didn't just criticize. I just wanted him to provide perhaps a more solid example of the immo/sentry hold. I've helped him find a really good P and the new version should be up soon. The reason for my asking of this was because the timing itself of immo/sentry is so important. Any deviation means a much easier kill for the Z player. It was very important to show the validity of the suggested counter-strategy against a "proper" push.
On September 05 2012 08:18 Natespank wrote: What's with the last few pages of this thread focusing on criticism?
The fact is that Llama's strategies are strong reactions against the all-ins presented in this series. If a silver player uses the strategies to defend low silver all-ins, he'll do well; then, it's on the all-in player to learn to all-in better, with micro and build adjustments; then it's on the defender again to take it up yet another notch, and so on. This goes all the way up until you're Marine King Prime, who can cheese and defend cheese like he's got super powers.
Here's a few defenses which are awesome btw: (free today, maybe later this week, due to anniversary)
I can beat a lot of guys who use llama's strategies, and I lose to a lot too- people are watching his videos. A lot of it is execution- typically, they die after making some big mistake or another, or I die after I make a mistake.
As one of the ones who was a bit criticizing, I didn't just criticize. I just wanted him to provide perhaps a more solid example of the immo/sentry hold. I've helped him find a really good P and the new version should be up soon. The reason for my asking of this was because the timing itself of immo/sentry is so important. Any deviation means a much easier kill for the Z player. It was very important to show the validity of the suggested counter-strategy against a "proper" push.
Yeah it's okay nate, I appreciate when people give good feedback like that. The immortal sentry hold wasn't proper and needed some work so I am happy he spoke up and I was able to remake it against a GM player.
next video is up. Defending a proxy 2gate in your base. I think on any 1v1 map it's always useful to take 5 extra seconds to look around (as you see many pros do) so that's what I think this video should teach as well as how to respond.
Something I started doing when I did play toss that is really important against p is sim city. A 2 gate will be really easy to defend if you build a funnel against nexus with pylon and your gates so your zealot is blocking their zealots to your stalker. Thoughts?
On your PvT vids, you go 1 gate expand when showing how to defend the 10 minute +1/stim/medivac push and 2 gate expand when showing how to defend a 2 rax.
This is not good because a good terran can make a 2-3 rax allin and a 1 rax gasless expand look nearly identical. How do you hold both with the same build? Do you just have to flip a coin?
On September 06 2012 02:38 phidget wrote: Something I started doing when I did play toss that is really important against p is sim city. A 2 gate will be really easy to defend if you build a funnel against nexus with pylon and your gates so your zealot is blocking their zealots to your stalker. Thoughts?
I'm curious as to what you mean exactly but it sounds good in theory. this of course is assuming you are getting a gas and a stalker (which is a harder way to hold it in my opinion, though not impossible).
On September 06 2012 06:06 jalstar wrote: On your PvT vids, you go 1 gate expand when showing how to defend the 10 minute +1/stim/medivac push and 2 gate expand when showing how to defend a 2 rax.
This is not good because a good terran can make a 2-3 rax allin and a 1 rax gasless expand look nearly identical. How do you hold both with the same build? Do you just have to flip a coin?
Well the reason I'm changing up my build is because I'm trying to show that you can hold with various things (since not everyone opens up 1 gate expand all the time). It's NOT a coin flip though because I can react later. So let's say in my 2 rax video I am planning for 1 gate expand with my 1 gas, when I get to his base I can see has a refinery (in my video he goes 2 rax with refinery to add marauders) and from there I can add 2 more gates if I want. If he's going for a gasless 2rax, I would chrono out my stalker and get him over near his base as fast as possible to see what was up (Then I could react if I saw no expand).
The big thing in the game you saw though was that I scouted a gas and 2 rax, so that was a pretty big tell to prepare. Most 2 rax hit a little later than that one (because they try to be more discrete about it) but then you have wg and can get more units so I think they aren't quite as effective usually.
I don't really think you can play aggressive styles with 40 APM or less. You can play defensive, yes, but... I don't see how as let's say, playing TvZ, in late game, you're dropping two separate bases while continuing to macro, and threatening a third base iwth your main army, you can stay under 40 APM. It just doesn't seem possible.
On September 08 2012 04:49 Flonomenalz wrote: hmm.
I don't really think you can play aggressive styles with 40 APM or less. You can play defensive, yes, but... I don't see how as let's say, playing TvZ, in late game, you're dropping two separate bases while continuing to macro, and threatening a third base iwth your main army, you can stay under 40 APM. It just doesn't seem possible.
Well 1. I changed it to winning with ease because I don't want people to focus on the APM, more on the decision making. 2. You may not be able to micro all the drops amazingly, but shift queuing up a couple of medivacs to go drop only takes a couple of actions, and that alone can be enough to throw your opponent off his game.
It's much better if you don't lose the scv early on in scouting and can actually watch him chronoboost the cybernetics core a couple times, but regardless it's still possible to hold without having that initial scout alive.
This is a great series, MrLlama. I switched to zerg a few months back from protoss and it's nice to get clarification on exactly how to deal with 6 pools + spines, 4 gates, etc. Keep up the good work.
Also, what is with all these people that have to post negative remarks regarding the 40 APM and Winning With Ease? I believe all that he is implying is that a lot of situations that people struggle with are not as difficult once you know proper ways to deal with them. Maybe you should watch the videos before you criticize them.
As a suggestion for your next series, how about trying to show how to execute these all-ins? Knowing how to attack is, if anything, even more important than knowing how to defend. Apologies if you already did that.
On September 09 2012 11:58 Acritter wrote: As a suggestion for your next series, how about trying to show how to execute these all-ins? Knowing how to attack is, if anything, even more important than knowing how to defend. Apologies if you already did that.
I actually kinda like that idea
definitely still have a lot of work for this series though first
Can you also make a video for the 2-gas 4 gate variant that cropped up after the nerf? I think it's a much stronger build if you can deny scouting -- even two blind bunkers won't defend it without good SCV repair micro. It's a push mostly comprised of sentry/stalker after (IIRC) two warp-ins.
On September 09 2012 15:43 CapnAmerica wrote: Can you also make a video for the 2-gas 4 gate variant that cropped up after the nerf? I think it's a much stronger build if you can deny scouting -- even two blind bunkers won't defend it without good SCV repair micro. It's a push mostly comprised of sentry/stalker after (IIRC) two warp-ins.
Sure I'll take a look at it. The thing is though, if he does a 2 gas 4 gate it will be delayed because he generally will be warping in units back at his base and have to walk all the way across the map. This generally gives you a little more time to prepare for it but I'll check it out and possibly make a video.
are you doing any videos on how to handle late game stuff? Like how to micro a terran army against a protoss late game army? or late game terran mech against late game zerg with broodlord infestor corruptor?
are you doing any videos on how to handle late game stuff? Like how to micro a terran army against a protoss late game army? or late game terran mech against late game zerg with broodlord infestor corruptor?
I don´t think, it is that easy, cause lategame is allways situational. It´s important what happened in the earlygame, how many bases each player has, what their upgrades are and so on. But if he could manage this, it would be really great. If you want faster input, you should just watch pro streams or vods, especially from ForGG, since he plays and streams a lot and he is verry good.
@ MrLlama: Are you still working on my request? Marine,Tank,Banshee allin in TvT? How about you add the video/s you are currently working on in the topic?
are you doing any videos on how to handle late game stuff? Like how to micro a terran army against a protoss late game army? or late game terran mech against late game zerg with broodlord infestor corruptor?
I don´t think, it is that easy, cause lategame is allways situational. It´s important what happened in the earlygame, how many bases each player has, what their upgrades are and so on. But if he could manage this, it would be really great. If you want faster input, you should just watch pro streams or vods, especially from ForGG, since he plays and streams a lot and he is verry good.
@ MrLlama: Are you still working on my request? Marine,Tank,Banshee allin in TvT? How about you add the video/s you are currently working on in the topic?
yeah lategame stuff is very situational so I think that may be a future series that I will have to figure out how to deal with that stuff
@Sianos, yes I am sorry. I'll go ahead and add a current list of videos I'm working on, good idea.
Hey if you run out of ideas I know of an all in that you havn't talked about yet. (i do it sometimes when pissed off in TvP) I dont have replays on me coz im out of teh house, but here is a breif description.
i go 14CC, rax bunker rax, stop marine production , can slo stop SCVs production. save up, put down five more rax, (for 7 rax) restart marine production and SCV production as it can be aforded, as soon as the first round of marines pop out of the new rax, pull about half my SCVs and go, while rallying from the 7 rax. add gass as i leave so if i kill the opens nat but they have FFs at ramp i can pull the SCVs back and continue the game. i belive the push hits at around 8 mins,
As for defending, if P is gready which often they are coz its a CC first, they just. If they take an exspation they seem to need really really good FFs. 1 bases imortal sentry dies, as I tend to scout it and then easy defend then its 2 base vs 1... the things that really seems to do well is 1 base fast colosis. 1 base blink can go ok 2 base blink its often to late.
robo after exspo the obvs get to my base to late to scout, stalk zelot poke doesn see shit (i hid any abnormal amount of mainres)
On September 10 2012 14:51 Pigzyf5 wrote: Hey if you run out of ideas I know of an all in that you havn't talked about yet. (i do it sometimes when pissed off in TvP) I dont have replays on me coz im out of teh house, but here is a breif description.
i go 14CC, rax bunker rax, stop marine production , can slo stop SCVs production. save up, put down five more rax, (for 7 rax) restart marine production and SCV production as it can be aforded, as soon as the first round of marines pop out of the new rax, pull about half my SCVs and go, while rallying from the 7 rax. add gass as i leave so if i kill the opens nat but they have FFs at ramp i can pull the SCVs back and continue the game. i belive the push hits at around 8 mins,
As for defending, if P is gready which often they are coz its a CC first, they just. If they take an exspation they seem to need really really good FFs. 1 bases imortal sentry dies, as I tend to scout it and then easy defend then its 2 base vs 1... the things that really seems to do well is 1 base fast colosis. 1 base blink can go ok 2 base blink its often to late.
robo after exspo the obvs get to my base to late to scout, stalk zelot poke doesn see shit (i hid any abnormal amount of mainres)
Hmmm could definitely be tough for a toss to defend, but I'd imagine really good forcefields would be key.
do yo have a replay to see it more? maybe a win and loss?
On September 10 2012 14:51 Pigzyf5 wrote: Hey if you run out of ideas I know of an all in that you havn't talked about yet. (i do it sometimes when pissed off in TvP) I dont have replays on me coz im out of teh house, but here is a breif description.
i go 14CC, rax bunker rax, stop marine production , can slo stop SCVs production. save up, put down five more rax, (for 7 rax) restart marine production and SCV production as it can be aforded, as soon as the first round of marines pop out of the new rax, pull about half my SCVs and go, while rallying from the 7 rax. add gass as i leave so if i kill the opens nat but they have FFs at ramp i can pull the SCVs back and continue the game. i belive the push hits at around 8 mins,
As for defending, if P is gready which often they are coz its a CC first, they just. If they take an exspation they seem to need really really good FFs. 1 bases imortal sentry dies, as I tend to scout it and then easy defend then its 2 base vs 1... the things that really seems to do well is 1 base fast colosis. 1 base blink can go ok 2 base blink its often to late.
robo after exspo the obvs get to my base to late to scout, stalk zelot poke doesn see shit (i hid any abnormal amount of mainres)
Usually a protoss can blind counter this as well as other types of pushes that hit around this time as long as they know that it isn't a 1/1/1. Forcefields and immortals pretty much hard counter this as well as other types of rushes that hit around this time
On September 10 2012 14:51 Pigzyf5 wrote: Hey if you run out of ideas I know of an all in that you havn't talked about yet. (i do it sometimes when pissed off in TvP) I dont have replays on me coz im out of teh house, but here is a breif description.
i go 14CC, rax bunker rax, stop marine production , can slo stop SCVs production. save up, put down five more rax, (for 7 rax) restart marine production and SCV production as it can be aforded, as soon as the first round of marines pop out of the new rax, pull about half my SCVs and go, while rallying from the 7 rax. add gass as i leave so if i kill the opens nat but they have FFs at ramp i can pull the SCVs back and continue the game. i belive the push hits at around 8 mins,
As for defending, if P is gready which often they are coz its a CC first, they just. If they take an exspation they seem to need really really good FFs. 1 bases imortal sentry dies, as I tend to scout it and then easy defend then its 2 base vs 1... the things that really seems to do well is 1 base fast colosis. 1 base blink can go ok 2 base blink its often to late.
robo after exspo the obvs get to my base to late to scout, stalk zelot poke doesn see shit (i hid any abnormal amount of mainres)
Usually a protoss can blind counter this as well as other types of pushes that hit around this time as long as they know that it isn't a 1/1/1. Forcefields and immortals pretty much hard counter this as well as other types of rushes that hit around this time
yeah but I never try and make my videos about blind countering :/
On September 10 2012 14:51 Pigzyf5 wrote: Hey if you run out of ideas I know of an all in that you havn't talked about yet. (i do it sometimes when pissed off in TvP) I dont have replays on me coz im out of teh house, but here is a breif description.
i go 14CC, rax bunker rax, stop marine production , can slo stop SCVs production. save up, put down five more rax, (for 7 rax) restart marine production and SCV production as it can be aforded, as soon as the first round of marines pop out of the new rax, pull about half my SCVs and go, while rallying from the 7 rax. add gass as i leave so if i kill the opens nat but they have FFs at ramp i can pull the SCVs back and continue the game. i belive the push hits at around 8 mins,
As for defending, if P is gready which often they are coz its a CC first, they just. If they take an exspation they seem to need really really good FFs. 1 bases imortal sentry dies, as I tend to scout it and then easy defend then its 2 base vs 1... the things that really seems to do well is 1 base fast colosis. 1 base blink can go ok 2 base blink its often to late.
robo after exspo the obvs get to my base to late to scout, stalk zelot poke doesn see shit (i hid any abnormal amount of mainres)
Usually a protoss can blind counter this as well as other types of pushes that hit around this time as long as they know that it isn't a 1/1/1. Forcefields and immortals pretty much hard counter this as well as other types of rushes that hit around this time
yeah but I never try and make my videos about blind countering :/
I was referencing a more tournament style based play. I have nothing personal against you or your videos. I actually respect your skill and your thought process and I think your videos are very well made. They are a great contribution to the community
I keep meeting this 1 base marine tank viking / medivac push in TvT, and it kills me every time. I just go 1 rax expand into 3 rax as usual, and then die, even when I scan and see it coming.
I would ordinarily get reactors on my other 2 raxes, but I felt like I needed to keep making units. I suspect that was the wrong choice, but I'm not sure the reactors would help either. I was trying to get my reactor starport up so I could get air control and stop him seeing up the ramp, but my starport timing could have been a lot tighter. I suspect that's the wrong way to do things anyway though. I feel seige mode would be too late as well though.
On September 12 2012 02:56 netherh wrote: Hi. I have another request if you wouldn't mind.
I keep meeting this 1 base marine tank viking / medivac push in TvT, and it kills me every time. I just go 1 rax expand into 3 rax as usual, and then die, even when I scan and see it coming.
I would ordinarily get reactors on my other 2 raxes, but I felt like I needed to keep making units. I suspect that was the wrong choice, but I'm not sure the reactors would help either. I was trying to get my reactor starport up so I could get air control and stop him seeing up the ramp, but my starport timing could have been a lot tighter. I suspect that's the wrong way to do things anyway though. I feel seige mode would be too late as well though.
I believe the key to stopping these sorts of pushes with a 1 rax expo into 3 rax is to do an scv pull with all of your marines right as he arrives at your base. If you let him get sieged up and slow push into your natural, you may be able to get siege mode out in time to stop him from straight up killing you (but probably not), and you will be 100% forced to lift your natural back into your main, and he will have more than enough time to expo behind his attack and be super, super far ahead with his hard contain.
I can't watch your replay right now, but I assume you should have a very large scv lead and a small lead in the marine count when he hits your base, so I think the key is to force the engagement with your marines/scvs before he has too many tanks.
Edit: More to the point, I think it is a great topic for one of MrLlamma's videos.
On September 12 2012 02:56 netherh wrote: Hi. I have another request if you wouldn't mind.
I keep meeting this 1 base marine tank viking / medivac push in TvT, and it kills me every time. I just go 1 rax expand into 3 rax as usual, and then die, even when I scan and see it coming.
I would ordinarily get reactors on my other 2 raxes, but I felt like I needed to keep making units. I suspect that was the wrong choice, but I'm not sure the reactors would help either. I was trying to get my reactor starport up so I could get air control and stop him seeing up the ramp, but my starport timing could have been a lot tighter. I suspect that's the wrong way to do things anyway though. I feel seige mode would be too late as well though.
I believe the key to stopping these sorts of pushes with a 1 rax expo into 3 rax is to do an scv pull with all of your marines right as he arrives at your base. If you let him get sieged up and slow push into your natural, you may be able to get siege mode out in time to stop him from straight up killing you (but probably not), and you will be 100% forced to lift your natural back into your main, and he will have more than enough time to expo behind his attack and be super, super far ahead with his hard contain.
I can't watch your replay right now, but I assume you should have a very large scv lead and a small lead in the marine count when he hits your base, so I think the key is to force the engagement with your marines/scvs before he has too many tanks.
Edit: More to the point, I think it is a great topic for one of MrLlamma's videos.
Well, his seige mode finishes at 8:00, though he's waiting outside my base at about 7:30. At 8 minutes, he has 10 marines, 3 tanks and a medivac at my base. I have 10 marines (less than I should have) and a 10 scv lead (I think I have about the number I should have at this time).
Running through my build order in single player, it looks like I should have 15 marines (screwed up my marine production in the early game and I got my bunker earlier delaying my 2 rax because I scouted him last and was scared).
Unit testing with the proper numbers looks like I should be able to kill it pulling 16 scvs or so (all the ones at my nat) as long as I hit before seige mode.
On September 12 2012 02:56 netherh wrote: Hi. I have another request if you wouldn't mind.
I keep meeting this 1 base marine tank viking / medivac push in TvT, and it kills me every time. I just go 1 rax expand into 3 rax as usual, and then die, even when I scan and see it coming.
I would ordinarily get reactors on my other 2 raxes, but I felt like I needed to keep making units. I suspect that was the wrong choice, but I'm not sure the reactors would help either. I was trying to get my reactor starport up so I could get air control and stop him seeing up the ramp, but my starport timing could have been a lot tighter. I suspect that's the wrong way to do things anyway though. I feel seige mode would be too late as well though.
1. You need to be constantly making units. There are so many breaks where you have the resources but your barracks are sitting still 2. reactors should really only be thrown down when you know you have time to spare. if your opponent is still on one base while you're on 2, you do not have time to wait for reactors because you need all the units you can get for his push. 3. The best defense is a good offense. I'm not saying go to his base, but be ready to be slightly aggressive if you need. I already have a video that is very similar to this and with proper unit production you could easily catch him. If he gets to your base and sieges up, your chances of losing increase significantly. So instead, be ready (especially when you scan factory with tech lab, reactored barracks, and starport) for his push and go out to meet him/stall him. Episode 15 is a perfect example of this (though you can pull scvs if you don't have enough units).
I may make a video in the event that he DOES get to siege your natural, but it's going to be a lot harder to stop.
1. You need to be constantly making units. There are so many breaks where you have the resources but your barracks are sitting still 2. reactors should really only be thrown down when you know you have time to spare. if your opponent is still on one base while you're on 2, you do not have time to wait for reactors because you need all the units you can get for his push. 3. The best defense is a good offense. I'm not saying go to his base, but be ready to be slightly aggressive if you need. I already have a video that is very similar to this and with proper unit production you could easily catch him. If he gets to your base and sieges up, your chances of losing increase significantly. So instead, be ready (especially when you scan factory with tech lab, reactored barracks, and starport) for his push and go out to meet him/stall him. Episode 15 is a perfect example of this (though you can pull scvs if you don't have enough units).
I may make a video in the event that he DOES get to siege your natural, but it's going to be a lot harder to stop.
Ah, I guess I missed that video. Yeah, my marine production was pretty bad, so that's definitely something to improve (along with factory / starport timings). I think I should also start scouting earlier as well, since scouting with my barracks scv often leaves me a bit in the dark.
That video the opponent actually expands, whereas in the replay the guy gets a reactor and another 2 rax. This makes me think I'd have to pull scvs and ward him off whlie I get reactors or throw down more barracks, otherwise I'm producing fewer marines.
Are the marauders as a response to seeing the tanks, or do you always get them?
1. You need to be constantly making units. There are so many breaks where you have the resources but your barracks are sitting still 2. reactors should really only be thrown down when you know you have time to spare. if your opponent is still on one base while you're on 2, you do not have time to wait for reactors because you need all the units you can get for his push. 3. The best defense is a good offense. I'm not saying go to his base, but be ready to be slightly aggressive if you need. I already have a video that is very similar to this and with proper unit production you could easily catch him. If he gets to your base and sieges up, your chances of losing increase significantly. So instead, be ready (especially when you scan factory with tech lab, reactored barracks, and starport) for his push and go out to meet him/stall him. Episode 15 is a perfect example of this (though you can pull scvs if you don't have enough units).
I may make a video in the event that he DOES get to siege your natural, but it's going to be a lot harder to stop.
Ah, I guess I missed that video. Yeah, my marine production was pretty bad, so that's definitely something to improve (along with factory / starport timings). I think I should also start scouting earlier as well, since scouting with my barracks scv often leaves me a bit in the dark.
That video the opponent actually expands, whereas in the replay the guy gets a reactor and another 2 rax. This makes me think I'd have to pull scvs and ward him off whlie I get reactors or throw down more barracks, otherwise I'm producing fewer marines.
Are the marauders as a response to seeing the tanks, or do you always get them?
I always like to add a couple of marauders, especially when I see he is going for gas early. When I saw the tanks though I definitely wanted to make sure I was continuing to make marauders.
Also yes, definitely scout before the barracks because if you scout when your rax is done, that means his is as well so he will be able to have a marine to kill your scv in time.
Lastly, the only difference really is that your guy gets a reactor on the barracks while mine goes straight marine production (leaving my guy short a couple of marines). Other than that there is really no difference with his first attack and you should be able to just head out there.
It's AFTER the attack where my opponent adds a CC while your opponent takes the two additional rax. Because he makes more rax, this is even more reason for you to NOT get the reactors. Remember, you only get reactors when you are safe. If you are ahead and he has the ability to pressure, DON'T GET THEM! That being said, if you see he hasn't expanded then I would make more barracks so you can keep up with production and stay ahead because you are on 2 bases to his 1.
Another episode is up. This episode is a tiny bit different because it is one of the "longer games" that I originally hadn't planned on doing. but when it comes to ZvT vs mech, you need to be able to pressure as the Z and do some damage otherwise he'll get that mass army that is so hard to trade with.
here's the video: my opponent opens 1 rax expo into hellions, cloak banshee, 3rd oc, and then meching.
On August 07 2012 05:42 Cyro wrote: Hm, thats odd. Seems you are right, but my APM with zerg is almost three times the APM i have with protoss, i thought that was because you have more units etc at a lower cost? I play both races pretty aggressively
Yeah building units causes big APM spikes, and inject adds another ~20 APM on 3 injected bases.
4 -> Shift+V -> space -> click -> space -> click -> space -> click
8 actions every 45 seconds. that would be 10.6 APM added.
Name: Voidrender.318(Jon) Race: Terran Match up: TvT Your Build: standard 10min medivac timing(3rax after 1rax FE) His Build: Proxy Thor Specific Map?: all Replay: Comments: I'm really just having trouble defending it and really knowing what to do against it. and since I dont see it up there... might as well right?
On September 14 2012 16:07 VoidRender wrote: Name: Voidrender.318(Jon) Race: Terran Match up: TvT Your Build: standard 10min medivac timing(3rax after 1rax FE) His Build: Proxy Thor Specific Map?: all Replay: Comments: I'm really just having trouble defending it and really knowing what to do against it. and since I dont see it up there... might as well right?
I'd be interested in knowing a little more about his build here. Are you saying he is just walking up with 1 proxy thor? is he going for proxy thor and medivac drops? (I have to play vs that a few times).
how many thors does he attack with?
a replay would really be best for a situation like this.
another episode is up. Bit different than usual but with the rise of people using 3 hatch before pool I thought it would be good to show.
A lot of it is simply the power of drones and delay. When he pulls all his scvs, he is not really mining at home so he doesn't have time to just sit and delay (besides, more time = more lings + queens and spines for you so he has to act fast). '
Thanks Mr Lama. I've just gotten back into the game after months (got discouraged since I couldn't figure out how to imrpove) and have been doing much better using Filter's fantastic Bronze to Masters macro guide.
The problem is, however, that while Macro is 99% of getting better, it SUCKS to put in all that effort to learn macro only to be cannon rushed because you didn't know what you should do exactly. I unfortunately can't watch your videos easily right now (dunno why but streaming is reallly slow atm) but I was salivating at some of the titles. Defending roach rushes with filters' macro style? YES PLEASE.
Your videos are perfect compliments to his. He talks about the core gameplay and getting better through macro, you talk about defending against all those guys just out to ruin your day even if they can't outplay you. In my experience, being successfully cheesed/all inned by someone who probably couldn't have beaten you in a straight up game is 100X more annoying than losing a long drawn out macro game.
You guys should start a partnership. I'm serious. With both these video series side by side, noobs like me have a perfect guide to getting better.
PS. DAMN did a lot of people miss the point about 40apm. Bet you're wishing you had never dropped that number, huh? "Winning with Ease" would have done just fine hehe
On September 22 2012 08:24 Autofire2 wrote: Thanks Mr Lama. I've just gotten back into the game after months (got discouraged since I couldn't figure out how to imrpove) and have been doing much better using Filter's fantastic Bronze to Masters macro guide.
The problem is, however, that while Macro is 99% of getting better, it SUCKS to put in all that effort to learn macro only to be cannon rushed because you didn't know what you should do exactly. I unfortunately can't watch your videos easily right now (dunno why but streaming is reallly slow atm) but I was salivating at some of the titles. Defending roach rushes with filters' macro style? YES PLEASE.
Your videos are perfect compliments to his. He talks about the core gameplay and getting better through macro, you talk about defending against all those guys just out to ruin your day even if they can't outplay you. In my experience, being successfully cheesed/all inned by someone who probably couldn't have beaten you in a straight up game is 100X more annoying than losing a long drawn out macro game.
You guys should start a partnership. I'm serious. With both these video series side by side, noobs like me have a perfect guide to getting better.
PS. DAMN did a lot of people miss the point about 40apm. Bet you're wishing you had never dropped that number, huh? "Winning with Ease" would have done just fine hehe
Filted and I actually used to be in the same clan (Before he stopped playing to focus on his guides).
and yeah that's kinda the point here. It stinks when you can macro so well but you just constantly die to the cheesy things. Knowing how to defend against those is half the battle so hopefully these can work together
Yeah the 40 apm thing was a bad idea...lots of people missed that point lol...
These tips are nice but your opponent was simply bad with this style I'd say, there are some flaws on his gameplay
1-Insanely late Mothership (And you sniped that Nexus so it turned into no Mothership at all) Mothership is really integral for defending your 3rd vs roach-ling stuff because you cloak everything in one spot with your mothership and place your army+cannons in your other base, or protoss will simply lose his 3rd and vortex is nice with your army or emergency purposes If you decide to put your mothership at home 2-No armor/shield upgrades (I forget about shield usually too) 3-Pure carriers suck imo, a lot of voidrays with few carriers are much more better I'd say 4-Infestors are vital against air but you didnt used them (Maybe you would have used them against voidray based armies, dont know about that) 5-He moved out at 130 supply, which is just too early for my taste
I can post a few replays of mine (I suck though) if you need. Constant zergling harass is really tough to deal with, that is a very nice point against mass air
These tips are nice but your opponent was simply bad with this style I'd say, there are some flaws on his gameplay
1-Insanely late Mothership (And you sniped that Nexus so it turned into no Mothership at all) Mothership is really integral for defending your 3rd vs roach-ling stuff because you cloak everything in one spot with your mothership and place your army+cannons in your other base, or protoss will simply lose his 3rd and vortex is nice with your army or emergency purposes If you decide to put your mothership at home 2-No armor/shield upgrades (I forget about shield usually too) 3-Pure carriers suck imo, a lot of voidrays with few carriers are much more better I'd say 4-Infestors are vital against air but you didnt used them (Maybe you would have used them against voidray based armies, dont know about that) 5-He moved out at 130 supply, which is just too early for my taste
I can post a few replays of mine (I suck though) if you need. Constant zergling harass is really tough to deal with, that is a very nice point against mass air
The nexus snipe really hurt his mothership production, but I think that was the main thing his army was missing. That being said, I'm not sure it would've done enough. Also, while infestors are good to use, they can be tricky for control and you actually can easily win with what I show here of just massing up those yummy corrupters. If he had gone for more voids though I would've added in a few infestors but with the carriers that I saw (and I actually do see more carrier than void in those armies) mass corrupters with upgrades are amazing.
On September 23 2012 15:03 SuperYo1000 wrote: gj, these episodes are really good
Thank you.
Any special requests?
Tonight I think I'll be uploading TvP Defending 1 base Collo push or defending cannon rush on antiga. May be something else but that's the plan as of now.
I don't think it should ever be possible to hold a 2 rax scv all-in with nexus first unless you build a forge. Your opponent in the video has absolutely horrid micro, if he had just a-moved everything to start he would have won easily. The first engagement he ran all his scvs past your units, and then let you surround and kill his first 2 marines. You should never, ever be able to surround his marines like that. If you're going nexus first and he's 2 raxing you, you better drop a forge and hope to complete some cannons at your ramp.
I don't think it should ever be possible to hold a 2 rax scv all-in with nexus first unless you build a forge. Your opponent in the video has absolutely horrid micro, if he had just a-moved everything to start he would have won easily. The first engagement he ran all his scvs past your units, and then let you surround and kill his first 2 marines. You should never, ever be able to surround his marines like that. If you're going nexus first and he's 2 raxing you, you better drop a forge and hope to complete some cannons at your ramp.
1. it's definitely possible, axslav has done it many time 2. my "horrid" opponent is a grandmasters league player who was a finalist at the WCS South American Finals (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5393887). His micro is going to be better than most anybody who does this against you. Yes his initial charge with the scvs was a bit ahead of the marines, but he actually microed to save a marine or two out of that plus even if he "a-moves" like you say, I can still mineral walk to the base in front of mine so my probes run right through his scvs to get to his marines. 3. Cannons are also an acceptable opening assuming you go 16 nex/16 forge. This is only viable upon scouting gasless opening from your opponent, thus requiring a 9 scout to actually get there. My probe did find his base first and so by the time I got there I couldn't tell if he was going gasless or not, thus I couldn't determine if a forge would be the right opener.
I don't think it should ever be possible to hold a 2 rax scv all-in with nexus first unless you build a forge. Your opponent in the video has absolutely horrid micro, if he had just a-moved everything to start he would have won easily. The first engagement he ran all his scvs past your units, and then let you surround and kill his first 2 marines. You should never, ever be able to surround his marines like that. If you're going nexus first and he's 2 raxing you, you better drop a forge and hope to complete some cannons at your ramp.
1. it's definitely possible, axslav has done it many time 2. my "horrible" opponent is a grandmasters league player who was a finalist at the WCS South American Finals (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5393887). His micro is going to be better than most anybody who does this against you. Yes his initial charge with the scvs was a bit ahead of the marines, but he actually microed to save a marine or two out of that plus even if he "a-moves" like you say, I can still mineral walk to the base in front of mine so my probes run right through his scvs to get to his marines. 3. Cannons are also an acceptable opening assuming you go 16 nex/16 forge. This is only viable upon scouting gasless opening from your opponent, thus requiring a 9 scout to actually get there. My probe did find his base first and so by the time I got there I couldn't tell if he was going gasless or not, thus I couldn't determine if a forge would be the right opener.
Okay, upon watching the video more closely:
1. This is not the exact build I think of when someone says "2 rax scv all-in". He builds the 2nd depot to block out your scout, and ends up as a result building the 2nd rax on 16 instead of doing something like 12/12rax, or 12/14rax. This makes me more inclined to believe you can hold it as you show in the video. 2. GM or not, he messed up the first engagement really bad. Sure, he saves one of his marines, but he still lets you get a good surround on his marines, losing 1 marine and letting 2 marines get into red hp while being forced to run around and not add their dps to the engagement (which makes them a lot easier to deal with with your first stalker). There is no reason to run all his scvs up the ramp like that -- I get that he wants to trap the zealot, but he ends up just running all of his scvs past your units, which is why I said he had "horrid micro". Note: I did not say that your opponent was "horrible" (I didn't even use the word "horrible", nice use of quotes), I just said he had "horrid micro", and I was really just referring to the first engagement. Edit: You say his micro will be better than anyone doing this against me, but I'm basically arguing he tried over microing (trying to do a fancy mineral walk up your ramp to trap your zealot), rather than just keeping his stuff as a ball and a-moving, which would have worked out better in this case. 3. He unnecessarily builds a bunker at your expo, and starts his bunker in your main late.
As for Axslav, I would appreciate it if you would link me to some replays / VODs of any professional games of a player going nexus first and holding a 2 rax scv all-in. I'm curious if you mean only some sort of reactionary scv all-in (scout nexus first, then build more rax), or which of the following you think you can hold: 11/11 proxied, 11/11 not proxied, 12/14, etc. I also wouldn't be too surprised if a pro managed to hold it on a much bigger map, as it may be possible to have stalkers out by that time. I just don't think it's possible to hold on shakuras.
I don't think it should ever be possible to hold a 2 rax scv all-in with nexus first unless you build a forge. Your opponent in the video has absolutely horrid micro, if he had just a-moved everything to start he would have won easily. The first engagement he ran all his scvs past your units, and then let you surround and kill his first 2 marines. You should never, ever be able to surround his marines like that. If you're going nexus first and he's 2 raxing you, you better drop a forge and hope to complete some cannons at your ramp.
1. it's definitely possible, axslav has done it many time 2. my "horrible" opponent is a grandmasters league player who was a finalist at the WCS South American Finals (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5393887). His micro is going to be better than most anybody who does this against you. Yes his initial charge with the scvs was a bit ahead of the marines, but he actually microed to save a marine or two out of that plus even if he "a-moves" like you say, I can still mineral walk to the base in front of mine so my probes run right through his scvs to get to his marines. 3. Cannons are also an acceptable opening assuming you go 16 nex/16 forge. This is only viable upon scouting gasless opening from your opponent, thus requiring a 9 scout to actually get there. My probe did find his base first and so by the time I got there I couldn't tell if he was going gasless or not, thus I couldn't determine if a forge would be the right opener.
Okay, upon watching the video more closely:
1. This is not the exact build I think of when someone says "2 rax scv all-in". He builds the 2nd depot to block out your scout, and ends up as a result building the 2nd rax on 16 instead of doing something like 12/12rax, or 12/14rax. This makes me more inclined to believe you can hold it as you show in the video. 2. GM or not, he messed up the first engagement really bad. Sure, he saves one of his marines, but he still lets you get a good surround on his marines, losing 1 marine and letting 2 marines get into red hp while being forced to run around and not add their dps to the engagement (which makes them a lot easier to deal with with your first stalker). There is no reason to run all his scvs up the ramp like that -- I get that he wants to trap the zealot, but he ends up just running all of his scvs past your units, which is why I said he had "horrid micro". Note: I did not say that your opponent was "horrible" (I didn't even use the word "horrible", nice use of quotes), I just said he had "horrid micro", and I was really just referring to the first engagement. Edit: You say his micro will be better than anyone doing this against me, but I'm basically arguing he tried over microing (trying to do a fancy mineral walk up your ramp to trap your zealot), rather than just keeping his stuff as a ball and a-moving, which would have worked out better in this case. 3. He unnecessarily builds a bunker at your expo, and starts his bunker in your main late.
As for Axslav, I would appreciate it if you would link me to some replays / VODs of any professional games of a player going nexus first and holding a 2 rax scv all-in. I'm curious if you mean only some sort of reactionary scv all-in (scout nexus first, then build more rax), or which of the following you think you can hold: 11/11 proxied, 11/11 not proxied, 12/14, etc. I also wouldn't be too surprised if a pro managed to hold it on a much bigger map, as it may be possible to have stalkers out by that time. I just don't think it's possible to hold on shakuras.
1. this is a reactionary 2 rax scv all in. So he was planning on doing a 1 rax FE (with supply depot to deny scouting) and then switches into a proxied rax when he scouts the nexus. So it is a little different. Were he to go for a 12/14 rax it would be a tiny bit harder to hold as the second zealot would probably just be finishing instead of down the ramp. 2. changed horrible to horrid. Someone else may keep their scvs with the army better, but they won't micro the marines to save them as well so I think it trades off. 3. the bunker at the expo actually is a decent idea for falling back and possibly being able to snipe the nexus. In other attempts that bunker actually proved to be effective because once I could force him out of my base he was still able to snipe my nexus since I couldn't push down the ramp. The bunker in my main I don't feel was that late. He placed it when he could get there to secure it going down. Possibly could've been a tiny bit faster but there is a LOT going on during this engagement and the micro of units, the production of units, the rallying and group of units, the building of structures, etc is quite taxing on both players, so nobody is going to have it perfect.
In other news, I've updated the OP so that it shows the episodes by race instead of by episode number. This should be helpful so that you can locate the videos you want to watch for your race.
Thanks for the link I'm going to check it out. I know I may seem a little hostile but I do think your videos are great and have a lot of useful information. I just only responded to the one that I had an issue with
Oh lawdy lawd. There are a lot of things here which I can already tell I'll be watching in this. I'll be back to ask questions/give some comments and criticisms is necessary. Cheers!
Got a request for you. ZvZ, could you do a guide on how to transition after defending an early pool? Should I go fast roaches or banes to exploit his lack of gas units?
Yesterday I defended a 7 pool and still got owned when he was able to expand and all. Platinum BTW. I guess I just played bad. What I usually do is get my gas when I am sure I can defend well and then go fast bane, betting on the fact that he is way behind. But it did not work yesterday as he had already bane of his own at home and he defended whatever I threw at him.
Thanks!
P.S. Just wanted to add that your videos are VERY helpful. Especially the one vs mech. I never had the balls to get the drop tech vs T. Always got scared it was a bad investment. Will try to abuse his lack of mobility from now on. Thanks again
On September 27 2012 05:33 b0ub0u wrote: Hey MrLIama
Got a request for you. ZvZ, could you do a guide on how to transition after defending an early pool? Should I go fast roaches or banes to exploit his lack of gas units?
Yesterday I defended a 7 pool and still got owned when he was able to expand and all. Platinum BTW. I guess I just played bad. What I usually do is get my gas when I am sure I can defend well and then go fast bane, betting on the fact that he is way behind. But it did not work yesterday as he had already bane of his own at home and he defended whatever I threw at him.
Thanks!
P.S. Just wanted to add that your videos are VERY helpful. Especially the one vs mech. I never had the balls to get the drop tech vs T. Always got scared it was a bad investment. Will try to abuse his lack of mobility from now on. Thanks again
It really depends on how he transitions after the 7 pool.
What it sounds like is that after he 7 pooled, instead of using the "when you're ahead get further ahead rule", you just tried to all in him instead right back. He all ins you? Macro up while you put on some pressure so he can't macro freely.
I'd say the easiest thing to do here would be drone up and get a roach warren, then you can go for a ling/roach push that will absolutely crush him because he can't macro enough to catch up AND defend that. Plus you can use the roaches as a slight defense if he tries to continue because u can wall ur ramp and be fine.
Added a new video. A cheese that I thought would be worthless actually turns out to be somewhat decent if not fully prepared for (not just grabbing a bunker but grabbing additional barracks as well).
Even if they don't engage, they can contain and expand behind it themselves to get even and then ahead.
On September 30 2012 02:50 Leru wrote: Great work! All your videos are quite educational I wonder why there are so few subscribers, but hopefully you'll get more attention.
tell your friends
thanks though. I'm just glad I can help as many people as I do already!
Thank you for providing us with xour series and your videos, i really like them.
I've got a question as far as ZvP vs Immortal/Sentry All-In is concerned.
In your hold video vs the 10 min push you use ling/bling, while in your 12:30 hold you use ling/roach/infestor. When I scout his double gas at his expansion and see we robo with my overlord I dont know when he will execute his push, so how to combine your 2 very different styles? I think building a baneling nest is quite delay and the ressources could be spent otherwise.
On September 30 2012 23:07 DarkZonk wrote: Hey MrLlama
Thank you for providing us with xour series and your videos, i really like them.
I've got a question as far as ZvP vs Immortal/Sentry All-In is concerned.
In your hold video vs the 10 min push you use ling/bling, while in your 12:30 hold you use ling/roach/infestor. When I scout his double gas at his expansion and see we robo with my overlord I dont know when he will execute his push, so how to combine your 2 very different styles? I think building a baneling nest is quite delay and the ressources could be spent otherwise.
Sure very fair.
In the videos I was kind of trying to show you can hold with various things. ling/roach/infestor works but so does ling/bling so really you could use either style (Thought it's harder to hold with just ling/roach in my opinion because it takes a little more micro if he hits before infestors).
A baneling nest cost 100/50, which really isn't very much when you consider he is going all in with this. If you drop it a little early and he doesn't go for the 10:00, it means you're missing like 1/2 of an infestor in the later battle. You CAN Hold it without this, but I think it's good to get just in case if you want to use ling bling
On October 01 2012 23:16 DarkZonk wrote: Even though I dont have a replay, I'd like to see a video on ZvP vs very early (min 7.30-8) 6 gate pressure after toss went FFE or 1gate expand.
caught me quite off guard todayher normalyl has like 3-4 sentries 4-5 stalker 2-3 zealots and keeps warping in
Sure thing I'll add it to the list!
If you have a replay that would be great to see, but I'm going to assume that this 6 gate pressure was off 2 gas only when I make the video?
On October 02 2012 07:24 DarkZonk wrote: yep, only 2 gas and it hits around min 7.30-8.
ill add replay next tiem i play (and prolly lose) agaisnt it.
haha okay I'll get a video up for you sometime
In the meantime, the video today may not make it up due to xsplit not recognizing SC2 anymore....so I'm reinstalling everything right now but we'll have to see.
Name: Daws Race: Zerg Match up: ZvT Your Build: 15 hatch 16 pool -> 3rd base + units His Build: Helion banshee Specific Map?: None, but Ohana gives me most trouble Replay: (helpful if you can provide one but not always necessary) Comments: I've just had real trouble defending against someone who constantly sends helions one way and banshees the other. I guess this is mid-game stuff, so would be harder to showcase?
On October 02 2012 16:46 Dawsmonkee wrote: Name: Daws Race: Zerg Match up: ZvT Your Build: 15 hatch 16 pool -> 3rd base + units His Build: Helion banshee Specific Map?: None, but Ohana gives me most trouble Replay: (helpful if you can provide one but not always necessary) Comments: I've just had real trouble defending against someone who constantly sends helions one way and banshees the other. I guess this is mid-game stuff, so would be harder to showcase?
I've had a couple of these requests so I'll probably get it up pretty quickly.
I think taking it to the hellion-banshee stage isn't bad, it's only when people want really late game stuff that it can be difficult to show.
another video has been added. Someone was having trouble when they'd play ling infestor ultra vs roach. that technically isn't a "push" that is hitting but rather this video is showcasing the play style and how to prevent that push from even starting.
What about against the double bunker wall-in, where he starts the bunkers while your hatch is half-way done at your natural? Is it best to cancel the hatch at the natural and build a 2nd hatch in your main right away?
As I see it, if they successfully double bunker the ramp, it's basically gg. They can do it off of a more economical opening, such as 12/12 or 12/14 rax, and then it becomes easier for the marines to poke up the ramp, since they can easily run back into the bunkers once they have forced lings out. In particular, if it's on a map where you can't poke at the bottom of your ramp without dropping a creep tumor first, being forced to cancel your natural hatchery (so you'll only have 1 queen out early and have to choose between inject and tumor) just makes it even worse.
I'm curious, though, to see if you have any ideas for what to do in the double bunker wall-off situation. I suppose a baneling bust would be an option since the bunkers are easier to break, but I dunno
What about against the double bunker wall-in, where he starts the bunkers while your hatch is half-way done at your natural? Is it best to cancel the hatch at the natural and build a 2nd hatch in your main right away?
As I see it, if they successfully double bunker the ramp, it's basically gg. They can do it off of a more economical opening, such as 12/12 or 12/14 rax, and then it becomes easier for the marines to poke up the ramp, since they can easily run back into the bunkers once they have forced lings out. In particular, if it's on a map where you can't poke at the bottom of your ramp without dropping a creep tumor first, being forced to cancel your natural hatchery (so you'll only have 1 queen out early and have to choose between inject and tumor) just makes it even worse.
I'm curious, though, to see if you have any ideas for what to do in the double bunker wall-off situation. I suppose a baneling bust would be an option since the bunkers are easier to break, but I dunno
There are many many many types of 2 rax bunker rushes to cover so I'll try and add a video for this one later on.
Letting the hatch finish in my opinion would be a mistake. I'd say grab that drone after cancelling and try to run away. A lot of times the terran won't even bother going to look for it and you can create a proxy hatch somewhere else and then pump lings from there to attack with.
More so though I'd say just cancel the hatch, build a hatch in your main, and grab a queen and spine crawler when your pool finishes. Then spend your first energy on a tumor to spread towards the natural, make another queen, make another spine, and try and bust out that way. Behind this of course be taking your gas (after 24 drones), getting upgrades, speed, and then you have multiple options of trying to nydus, baneling bust out (depending how many bunkers he added behind), infestors, drops, etc... I haven't played against this to really know the best strategy so I'll have to test out a few ways and then make a video for you.
Well even if i can hold 6 pools with a cc first, i´m still not sure whether it´s worth doing it or not. From what i heard you only have ~ 3 workers more than with a 1 rax fe, but if scouted your opponent can do a 3 hatch before pool without any worries and then he can drone like crazy. Did anyone tested what exactly the benefit of a cc first is?
On October 07 2012 03:49 Sianos wrote: Well even if i can hold 6 pools with a cc first, i´m still not sure whether it´s worth doing it or not. From what i heard you only have ~ 3 workers more than with a 1 rax fe, but if scouted your opponent can do a 3 hatch before pool without any worries and then he can drone like crazy. Did anyone tested what exactly the benefit of a cc first is?
well 3 workers is a lot at the top...
and even if he 3 hatches before pool, a lot of zergs don't use that so they probably won't do it and you can get a slightly more economical lead
On August 07 2012 05:39 ishyishy wrote: I might be a minority, but I have never enjoyed or have been interested in discussing APM. I feel like almost everyone talks about APM way too much. A lot of people over-value it, to the point of trying to insult other players because they have low APM in whatever league (like for example I have under 60 effective APM, but I was in masters for 3 seasons, and all i got was "how did you get to masters, you are terrible, you need 150 apm minimum for this and that, oh yu play protoss no wonder...").
When I see a caster or an observer show the APM tab in a tournament match, and they go into how much ap each player has, it actually annoys me. I would rather hear almost anything else in the beginning of a match when nothing is going on; like who the players are, who their team is, what tournaments they won in the past, etc.
I feel like you can just say "you can slow down your APM if you use it more effectively instead of mindless spam" and be done with it. What else is there to say on effective APM? You cant really teach people how to use APM by telling them on a forum or a video, the player needs to make the decision to do it. It seems like somethng you learn by doing, rather than theory crafting about it, which is another reason I dont feel like there is much to discuss about it.
Im no pro, but I dont see how APM relates to strategy at all. Obviously you cant be "too slow" because a certain skill level of mechanics is needed to play amoung the best, but in general it doesnt explain what the player is doing or is going to do during the game. I never hear "oh well if you do this build, you want around 200 apm. If you go for this build, you want 120."
This is just my opinion on the subject of your show or blog or whatever. If you can make a show with this subject interesting or entertaining, then I will be impressed lol. Good luck.
Look at APM like at the skill of a cook to work fast in a kitchen, maybe handle his knives and having multiple meals cooking at the same time. You can make great food if your slower, but you will always be a little bit behind and will have problems that a person who has these skills won't have.
I get you point but APM are not unimportant. At the same time they are not everything that counts!
I understand how running all of your scvs all over the map will work against someone who goes 6p and pulls all of their drones. But what about someone who goes 6p and comes at you with just their lings? In this case, I feel like running your scvs all over the map is not an option, since your opponent is still mining, and can just use his lings to kill your constructing rax, your depot, and force your CC to lift off (at which point he can just drone up, while you have to relocate your base).
My response in this situation is to try to get my wall up at all costs, as 15 scvs will beat 6 zerglings in a head-on fight quite handily. I would pull all of my scvs and try to finish a depot/rax/depot wall with the money from canceling the CC. This situation is more similar to a 6p in ZvP against a FFE, where protoss is forced to defend their main and try to lose as few probes as possible. I'm curious if that is how you would recommend to defend it.
I understand how running all of your scvs all over the map will work against someone who goes 6p and pulls all of their drones. But what about someone who goes 6p and comes at you with just their lings? In this case, I feel like running your scvs all over the map is not an option, since your opponent is still mining, and can just use his lings to kill your constructing rax, your depot, and force your CC to lift off (at which point he can just drone up, while you have to relocate your base).
My response in this situation is to try to get my wall up at all costs, as 15 scvs will beat 6 zerglings in a head-on fight quite handily. I would pull all of my scvs and try to finish a depot/rax/depot wall with the money from canceling the CC. This situation is more similar to a 6p in ZvP against a FFE, where protoss is forced to defend their main and try to lose as few probes as possible. I'm curious if that is how you would recommend to defend it.
Although I haven't done much testing on it, that's probably how I would defend it. Once you get your wall up, you win. You have 400 extra minerals to spare and keep making scvs with so just use your 13-14 scvs to fight his lings while you get the wall up. Then once it's up, repair, and win easily because you're ahead in workers.
On October 09 2012 02:49 MrLlama wrote: new episode is up. Was heavily requested in the reddit thread so I thought I'd put up a very easy guide for defending vs banshee hellion
Hey thanks nice video! One question though, what made you build those spores? I didn't saw you scout his Starports... do you just build them blindly expecting Hellions/Banshees?
On October 09 2012 02:49 MrLlama wrote: new episode is up. Was heavily requested in the reddit thread so I thought I'd put up a very easy guide for defending vs banshee hellion
Hey thanks nice video! One question though, what made you build those spores? I didn't saw you scout his Starports... do you just build them blindly expecting Hellions/Banshees?
Tnx
sure thing. I'd say you can scout this, but personally I like to save my scout overlord for a little later. The current metagame has banshees after hellions so often that I think it's worth it to just grab 2-3 spores and be safe. It's not a huge investment and can save you a lot of hassle.
Apologies to all for no video today. I had 2 midterms, a presentation, and a 46 page project due. So I'm exhausted and sleeping now lol. I'll have a new one up tomorrow
Name: SAlechko (Cranberry in game) Race: Terran Match up: TvT Your Build: 1 Rax FE with delayed gas His Build: Some sort of Marine/Tank drop Specific Map?: None Replay: drop.sc/264209 Comments: Thank you!
On October 14 2012 01:20 SAlechko wrote: Name: SAlechko (Cranberry in game) Race: Terran Match up: TvT Your Build: 1 Rax FE with delayed gas His Build: Some sort of Marine/Tank drop Specific Map?: None Replay: drop.sc/264209 Comments: Thank you!
Name: scape Race: terran Match up: TvP Your Build: gasless fe His Build: 6 gate 2 base all in Specific Map?: none Replay: http://drop.sc/264378 Comments:
Matchup: TvT My build: 1 rax fe into 3 rax into reactor medivacs His build: Cloak Banshee opening into marine,siegetank,banshee scv allin Maps: Like Shakuras Plateau where Banshee play is strong Comment: The problem with this allin is that the cloak banshees give him total mapcontrol, which makes it almost impossible to see his push comming and catch it right in the middle of the map. Another problem is that his banshees can bind some of your marines in your minerallines even if you make 1 turret at each base, which reduce the force you can throw at him when you finally see his marines, siegetanks and scvs comming. I never hold it once. Replay: TvT_Shakuras This is just a sample, since i don´t play very much i have very few replays of this allin, but it gives you a rough idea. The version where he pushes out a bit later with more stuff and all his scvs is a lot harder to defend then the version the player used aggainst me in this replay. He even ddin´t got the cloak upgrade, i think because i scanned his banshee build.
Hi. I just want to remind about my request a while ago. It still isn´t in the OP and i still would gladly have some advice on that.
Matchup: TvT My build: 1 rax fe into 3 rax into reactor medivacs His build: Cloak Banshee opening into marine,siegetank,banshee scv allin Maps: Like Shakuras Plateau where Banshee play is strong Comment: The problem with this allin is that the cloak banshees give him total mapcontrol, which makes it almost impossible to see his push comming and catch it right in the middle of the map. Another problem is that his banshees can bind some of your marines in your minerallines even if you make 1 turret at each base, which reduce the force you can throw at him when you finally see his marines, siegetanks and scvs comming. I never hold it once. Replay: TvT_Shakuras This is just a sample, since i don´t play very much i have very few replays of this allin, but it gives you a rough idea. The version where he pushes out a bit later with more stuff and all his scvs is a lot harder to defend then the version the player used aggainst me in this replay. He even ddin´t got the cloak upgrade, i think because i scanned his banshee build.
Hi. I just want to remind about my request a while ago. It still isn´t in the OP and i still would gladly have some advice on that.
Noted. I have been messing around with this one to really get something good.
Name: saaa Race: Terran Match up: TvZ Your Build: CC first with Reactor Hellion into Cloak Banshee into 2 Armory Mech (Mvp Style) His Build: 2 Base Fast Mutas Replay: no replay
Comments: thx for your help in advance i always struggle against this kind of play
On October 18 2012 19:21 saaaa wrote: Name: saaa Race: Terran Match up: TvZ Your Build: CC first with Reactor Hellion into Cloak Banshee into 2 Armory Mech (Mvp Style) His Build: 2 Base Fast Mutas Replay: no replay
Comments: thx for your help in advance i always struggle against this kind of play
Hmmm okay I'll take a look at it. If he isn't going for a 3rd base and you're working towards banshees, you definitely want to see what's going on and prepare to defend against some serious pressure.
Hello MrLlama. You should make a video about how to punish Nexus First in TvP. Seems like 3OC is really vulnerable against that and I'm pretty clueless to what is the best option for this
On October 22 2012 04:05 Ber wrote: Hello MrLlama. You should make a video about how to punish Nexus First in TvP. Seems like 3OC is really vulnerable against that and I'm pretty clueless to what is the best option for this
I more make videos right now for defending, not really punishing.
There's a TON of options against a nexus first. You could try a 4 rax all in which is pretty effective, but if you wish to macro instead I would recommend just cutting a few corners. get less marines early and instead grab faster additional rax and faster upgrades and stuff. You can also forego the bunker and there's just a lot of little corners that you can cut which still leave you able to defend any 2 base aggression.
Also, new video up after it being requested a lot.
Mr Llama, I really like your series, and the focus on not needing excellent micro and Apm. As a bronze player it sure helps when I need to figure out how I should have defended a rush or what-not.
If possible, I would have prefered if you could record record the videos while playing, instead of streaming the replay. Especially for "tactical" videos like defend against 6-pool, it helps to see how you are playing, what you are looking at etc, which is not as easily apparent in the replay. (BTW, that is one of the reasons I like Apollo's tutorials...)
A video I would like too see added, is how to best defend against air in a PvP-situation, where you yourself have gone robo. I struggle if he comes harassing with void rays or carriers against my gateway/robo army, due to lack of mobility, even with significantly better economy.
@andersako - glad it's helpful. I may do some videos where I'm following myself in real time in the game, but I find that for my winning with ease series I want to be able to have it in replay so I can show everything (sometimes I miss talking about things when I'm in the game).
On November 20 2012 06:25 MrLlama wrote: Latest video up
@andersako - glad it's helpful. I may do some videos where I'm following myself in real time in the game, but I find that for my winning with ease series I want to be able to have it in replay so I can show everything (sometimes I miss talking about things when I'm in the game).
On November 20 2012 06:25 MrLlama wrote: Latest video up
@andersako - glad it's helpful. I may do some videos where I'm following myself in real time in the game, but I find that for my winning with ease series I want to be able to have it in replay so I can show everything (sometimes I miss talking about things when I'm in the game).
So you do advise skipping roaches completely in ZvP? This gets you tech faster but are you not weak without those meaty units?
I would say it depends on your playstyle. Personally, I'm a big fan of just lings. I like them because you can use them for counterattacks to keep the protosss coming back to his base until you have the tech you desire.
That being said, if you want to be a little more defensive go ahead and grab some meaty roaches for defending with the spines and you'll be fine.
On November 22 2012 06:06 b0ub0u wrote: I hate roaches. But can you really hold the Sentry/Immo all-in without any roaches?
A top level all in (high masters +) probably not, though if you bait enough ffs maybe.
Anything below that and yes. I've beat many low-mid masters immortal sentry all ins with purely lings or ling bane.
That being said, getting a roach warren is good to have so you can produce the roaches as soon as you see him push out (so they pop when he gets there)
Name: iKill Race: Protoss Match up: PvT Your Build: 1gate Expand His Build: Proxy conc shells bunker rush Specific Map?: No Comments: Really can't figure out how to deal with this, would love your help
On November 27 2012 05:19 iKill wrote: Name: iKill Race: Protoss Match up: PvT Your Build: 1gate Expand His Build: Proxy conc shells bunker rush Specific Map?: No Comments: Really can't figure out how to deal with this, would love your help
I'm assuming this is a 1 rax proxy and you are scouting the no rax and gas in the main yes?
On August 07 2012 05:42 Cyro wrote: Hm, thats odd. Seems you are right, but my APM with zerg is almost three times the APM i have with protoss, i thought that was because you have more units etc at a lower cost? I play both races pretty aggressively
Protoss usually has 1 or 2 control groups, zerg tends to use more as their units favor multiple attack groups while protoss units do better together. Also, injects + creep spread each are 1 more action. Protoss APM usually spikes when engaging in combat but overall, toss uses the least apm.
On August 07 2012 05:42 Cyro wrote: Hm, thats odd. Seems you are right, but my APM with zerg is almost three times the APM i have with protoss, i thought that was because you have more units etc at a lower cost? I play both races pretty aggressively
Protoss usually has 1 or 2 control groups, zerg tends to use more as their units favor multiple attack groups while protoss units do better together. Also, injects + creep spread each are 1 more action. Protoss APM usually spikes when engaging in combat but overall, toss uses the least apm.
I've found protoss generally just needs less apm to accomplish all the necessary tasks. Zerg can always use more apm for positioning flanks, creep spread, injects, etc. Toss has more of a deathball style so there tends to be less actions necessary overall.
On November 27 2012 05:19 iKill wrote: Name: iKill Race: Protoss Match up: PvT Your Build: 1gate Expand His Build: Proxy conc shells bunker rush Specific Map?: No Comments: Really can't figure out how to deal with this, would love your help
I'm assuming this is a 1 rax proxy and you are scouting the no rax and gas in the main yes?
Yeah, it's purely how to deal with it after scouting it. Even if I scout the rush, I almost always lose simply because I have no idea how to deal with it.
Thx, for the video's. Im in bronze and have won over 75% of my games since i used your lessons. But im stuck at the macro part to improve further. After i get my natural, i sometimes slip up (no troop prod or scv production or supply or no new rax). Most of the time i still win, but its irritating that i'm not on your suggested timings.
Im guessing its my APM in combination with the hotkeys and controlgroups that isnt good enough yet too match your timings and supply. Is it possible u show us how you use your hotkeys and controlgroups for the standard terran build (for noobs)?
Thx, for the video's. Im in bronze and have won over 75% of my games since i used your lessons. But im stuck at the macro part to improve further. After i get my natural, i sometimes slip up (no troop prod or scv production or supply or no new rax). Most of the time i still win, but its irritating that i'm not on your suggested timings.
Im guessing its my APM in combination with the hotkeys and controlgroups that isnt good enough yet too match your timings and supply. Is it possible u show us how you use your hotkeys and controlgroups for the standard terran build (for noobs)?
thx!
Sure that's a great idea. I'll think of some good basic stuff to teach people in videos (hotkeys, builds, basic ideas, etc)
On November 22 2012 06:06 b0ub0u wrote: I hate roaches. But can you really hold the Sentry/Immo all-in without any roaches?
A top level all in (high masters +) probably not, though if you bait enough ffs maybe.
Anything below that and yes. I've beat many low-mid masters immortal sentry all ins with purely lings or ling bane.
That being said, getting a roach warren is good to have so you can produce the roaches as soon as you see him push out (so they pop when he gets there)
Can you provide any VOD or replay of this working? I have been trying for the last 2 weeks and I am unable to make it work. I am high plat only. It seems my lings even if they get a good surround they don't damage his push enough! He still can get to my third and kill it.
On November 22 2012 06:06 b0ub0u wrote: I hate roaches. But can you really hold the Sentry/Immo all-in without any roaches?
A top level all in (high masters +) probably not, though if you bait enough ffs maybe.
Anything below that and yes. I've beat many low-mid masters immortal sentry all ins with purely lings or ling bane.
That being said, getting a roach warren is good to have so you can produce the roaches as soon as you see him push out (so they pop when he gets there)
Can you provide any VOD or replay of this working? I have been trying for the last 2 weeks and I am unable to make it work. I am high plat only. It seems my lings even if they get a good surround they don't damage his push enough! He still can get to my third and kill it.
Thanks
I'd say first you should probably take a look at your macro. Make sure you are hitting close to if not above 70 supply at 8:00. If you are not doing this, then you probably won't be able to have enough stuff to defend against the push!
That being said, sure I will try to find a good replay of it working. I'll see what I have
Name:AlleZ Race: Terran Match up:TvZ Your Build:Filtersc's bio guide His Build:Some kind of roaches im not sure what its called though Specific Map?: Mostly Shakuras plateau Replay: http://drop.sc/282213 Comments: -
On December 07 2012 01:22 all3z wrote: Name:AlleZ Race: Terran Match up:TvZ Your Build:Filtersc's bio guide His Build:Some kind of roaches im not sure what its called though Specific Map?: Mostly Shakuras plateau Replay: http://drop.sc/282213 Comments: -
I'll have to watch the replay. Thanks for submitting it!
On December 07 2012 01:22 all3z wrote: Name:AlleZ Race: Terran Match up:TvZ Your Build:Filtersc's bio guide His Build:Some kind of roaches im not sure what its called though Specific Map?: Mostly Shakuras plateau Replay: http://drop.sc/282213 Comments: -
I'll have to watch the replay. Thanks for submitting it!
Would be awesome if you could make a video having a really hard time against these. It wasnt the same as the roach rush you had.
On December 07 2012 01:22 all3z wrote: Name:AlleZ Race: Terran Match up:TvZ Your Build:Filtersc's bio guide His Build:Some kind of roaches im not sure what its called though Specific Map?: Mostly Shakuras plateau Replay: http://drop.sc/282213 Comments: -
I'll have to watch the replay. Thanks for submitting it!
Would be awesome if you could make a video having a really hard time against these. It wasnt the same as the roach rush you had.
I will be sending you some tips in a PM here soon. This would be less of a video to make and more of some corrections in your play that could help you
Seems my problem with protos as terran is my scouting and interpretation of the information gathered. I scan at 6:20 in search of what the roboticsfacility is producing and if he has an expansion. If he is producing immortals or colossus and doesn't have an expansion, i need bunkers at my expansion and scv's to repair them. If i see observerproduction and no expansion, he's most likely trying blinkstalker. In that case i should move all buildings to my main so its easier to defend the ledges. Is my assumption correct on how to scout protos and use the information gathered?
On December 20 2012 04:42 govie wrote: Seems my problem with protos as terran is my scouting and interpretation of the information gathered. I scan at 6:20 in search of what the roboticsfacility is producing and if he has an expansion. If he is producing immortals or colossus and doesn't have an expansion, i need bunkers at my expansion and scv's to repair them. If i see observerproduction and no expansion, he's most likely trying blinkstalker. In that case i should move all buildings to my main so its easier to defend the ledges. Is my assumption correct on how to scout protos and use the information gathered?
I'd say that's a decent way to look at it. I don't think you have to pull your expansion up all the time, I just do it personally on cloud kingdom and sometimes antiga
On December 20 2012 04:42 govie wrote: Seems my problem with protos as terran is my scouting and interpretation of the information gathered. I scan at 6:20 in search of what the roboticsfacility is producing and if he has an expansion. If he is producing immortals or colossus and doesn't have an expansion, i need bunkers at my expansion and scv's to repair them. If i see observerproduction and no expansion, he's most likely trying blinkstalker. In that case i should move all buildings to my main so its easier to defend the ledges. Is my assumption correct on how to scout protos and use the information gathered?
I'd say that's a decent way to look at it. I don't think you have to pull your expansion up all the time, I just do it personally on cloud kingdom and sometimes antiga
Thx! MrLlamma. Well, if u use the filtersc guide, ive noticed that once u can macro decently to 100 supply at 10 minutes, u only loose to one-base strategies without scouting. So, im on 2nd base now and need to learn to scout and prepare and that's where u your guide is very usefull.
On December 20 2012 04:42 govie wrote: Seems my problem with protos as terran is my scouting and interpretation of the information gathered. I scan at 6:20 in search of what the roboticsfacility is producing and if he has an expansion. If he is producing immortals or colossus and doesn't have an expansion, i need bunkers at my expansion and scv's to repair them. If i see observerproduction and no expansion, he's most likely trying blinkstalker. In that case i should move all buildings to my main so its easier to defend the ledges. Is my assumption correct on how to scout protos and use the information gathered?
I'd say that's a decent way to look at it. I don't think you have to pull your expansion up all the time, I just do it personally on cloud kingdom and sometimes antiga
Thx! MrLlamma. Well, if u use the filtersc guide, ive noticed that once u can macro decently to 100 supply at 10 minutes, u only loose to one-base strategies without scouting. So, im on 2nd base now and need to learn to scout and prepare and that's where u your guide is very usefull.
thx for the reply
That was actually a big part of the plan - making this series a complement to FilterSCs guides. He teaches you how to macro decently but it doesn't help you vs these all ins, so hopefully these videos have helped!
On August 07 2012 05:39 ishyishy wrote: I might be a minority, but I have never enjoyed or have been interested in discussing APM. I feel like almost everyone talks about APM way too much. A lot of people over-value it, to the point of trying to insult other players because they have low APM in whatever league (like for example I have under 60 effective APM, but I was in masters for 3 seasons, and all i got was "how did you get to masters, you are terrible, you need 150 apm minimum for this and that, oh yu play protoss no wonder...").
When I see a caster or an observer show the APM tab in a tournament match, and they go into how much ap each player has, it actually annoys me. I would rather hear almost anything else in the beginning of a match when nothing is going on; like who the players are, who their team is, what tournaments they won in the past, etc.
I feel like you can just say "you can slow down your APM if you use it more effectively instead of mindless spam" and be done with it. What else is there to say on effective APM? You cant really teach people how to use APM by telling them on a forum or a video, the player needs to make the decision to do it. It seems like somethng you learn by doing, rather than theory crafting about it, which is another reason I dont feel like there is much to discuss about it.
Im no pro, but I dont see how APM relates to strategy at all. Obviously you cant be "too slow" because a certain skill level of mechanics is needed to play amoung the best, but in general it doesnt explain what the player is doing or is going to do during the game. I never hear "oh well if you do this build, you want around 200 apm. If you go for this build, you want 120."
This is just my opinion on the subject of your show or blog or whatever. If you can make a show with this subject interesting or entertaining, then I will be impressed lol. Good luck.
This is the longest post talking about not talking about apm ;-)
On August 07 2012 05:39 ishyishy wrote: I might be a minority, but I have never enjoyed or have been interested in discussing APM. I feel like almost everyone talks about APM way too much. A lot of people over-value it, to the point of trying to insult other players because they have low APM in whatever league (like for example I have under 60 effective APM, but I was in masters for 3 seasons, and all i got was "how did you get to masters, you are terrible, you need 150 apm minimum for this and that, oh yu play protoss no wonder...").
When I see a caster or an observer show the APM tab in a tournament match, and they go into how much ap each player has, it actually annoys me. I would rather hear almost anything else in the beginning of a match when nothing is going on; like who the players are, who their team is, what tournaments they won in the past, etc.
I feel like you can just say "you can slow down your APM if you use it more effectively instead of mindless spam" and be done with it. What else is there to say on effective APM? You cant really teach people how to use APM by telling them on a forum or a video, the player needs to make the decision to do it. It seems like somethng you learn by doing, rather than theory crafting about it, which is another reason I dont feel like there is much to discuss about it.
Im no pro, but I dont see how APM relates to strategy at all. Obviously you cant be "too slow" because a certain skill level of mechanics is needed to play amoung the best, but in general it doesnt explain what the player is doing or is going to do during the game. I never hear "oh well if you do this build, you want around 200 apm. If you go for this build, you want 120."
This is just my opinion on the subject of your show or blog or whatever. If you can make a show with this subject interesting or entertaining, then I will be impressed lol. Good luck.
This is the longest post talking about not talking about apm ;-)
I mean...the dude had a lot to say about APM lol Sometimes people just need to rant
On August 07 2012 05:39 ishyishy wrote: I might be a minority, but I have never enjoyed or have been interested in discussing APM. I feel like almost everyone talks about APM way too much. A lot of people over-value it, to the point of trying to insult other players because they have low APM in whatever league (like for example I have under 60 effective APM, but I was in masters for 3 seasons, and all i got was "how did you get to masters, you are terrible, you need 150 apm minimum for this and that, oh yu play protoss no wonder...").
When I see a caster or an observer show the APM tab in a tournament match, and they go into how much ap each player has, it actually annoys me. I would rather hear almost anything else in the beginning of a match when nothing is going on; like who the players are, who their team is, what tournaments they won in the past, etc.
I feel like you can just say "you can slow down your APM if you use it more effectively instead of mindless spam" and be done with it. What else is there to say on effective APM? You cant really teach people how to use APM by telling them on a forum or a video, the player needs to make the decision to do it. It seems like somethng you learn by doing, rather than theory crafting about it, which is another reason I dont feel like there is much to discuss about it.
Im no pro, but I dont see how APM relates to strategy at all. Obviously you cant be "too slow" because a certain skill level of mechanics is needed to play amoung the best, but in general it doesnt explain what the player is doing or is going to do during the game. I never hear "oh well if you do this build, you want around 200 apm. If you go for this build, you want 120."
This is just my opinion on the subject of your show or blog or whatever. If you can make a show with this subject interesting or entertaining, then I will be impressed lol. Good luck.
This is the longest post talking about not talking about apm ;-)
Made me laugh APM only usefull for the dishes, more time to play
On August 07 2012 05:39 ishyishy wrote: I might be a minority, but I have never enjoyed or have been interested in discussing APM. I feel like almost everyone talks about APM way too much. A lot of people over-value it, to the point of trying to insult other players because they have low APM in whatever league (like for example I have under 60 effective APM, but I was in masters for 3 seasons, and all i got was "how did you get to masters, you are terrible, you need 150 apm minimum for this and that, oh yu play protoss no wonder...").
When I see a caster or an observer show the APM tab in a tournament match, and they go into how much ap each player has, it actually annoys me. I would rather hear almost anything else in the beginning of a match when nothing is going on; like who the players are, who their team is, what tournaments they won in the past, etc.
I feel like you can just say "you can slow down your APM if you use it more effectively instead of mindless spam" and be done with it. What else is there to say on effective APM? You cant really teach people how to use APM by telling them on a forum or a video, the player needs to make the decision to do it. It seems like somethng you learn by doing, rather than theory crafting about it, which is another reason I dont feel like there is much to discuss about it.
Im no pro, but I dont see how APM relates to strategy at all. Obviously you cant be "too slow" because a certain skill level of mechanics is needed to play amoung the best, but in general it doesnt explain what the player is doing or is going to do during the game. I never hear "oh well if you do this build, you want around 200 apm. If you go for this build, you want 120."
This is just my opinion on the subject of your show or blog or whatever. If you can make a show with this subject interesting or entertaining, then I will be impressed lol. Good luck.
This is the longest post talking about not talking about apm ;-)
Made me laugh APM only usefull for the dishes, more time to play
haha
Also, I'm planning on doing this for HOTS when it comes out and once some strategies are defined Just so everyone knows
On December 21 2012 08:47 MrLlama wrote: That was actually a big part of the plan - making this series a complement to FilterSCs guides. He teaches you how to macro decently but it doesn't help you vs these all ins, so hopefully these videos have helped!
I think you have been quite successful and your breakdowns have helped me accelerate certain aspects of my game.
Do you plan to just focus on possible "All-in" scenarios or expand it to cover planning timing attacks for each race based on scouting, and general "game theory" concepts?
I think a lot of players feel certain races are OP, when in reality it is due to not taking advantage of natural times when certain builds make races weaker. Day[9] has been spending a few sessions addressing this for Protoss and Terran match-ups against Zerg, since that is what the community seems to be focused on.
On December 21 2012 08:47 MrLlama wrote: That was actually a big part of the plan - making this series a complement to FilterSCs guides. He teaches you how to macro decently but it doesn't help you vs these all ins, so hopefully these videos have helped!
I think you have been quite successful and your breakdowns have helped me accelerate certain aspects of my game.
Do you plan to just focus on possible "All-in" scenarios or expand it to cover planning timing attacks for each race based on scouting, and general "game theory" concepts?
I think a lot of players feel certain races are OP, when in reality it is due to not taking advantage of natural times when certain builds make races weaker. Day[9] has been spending a few sessions addressing this for Protoss and Terran match-ups against Zerg, since that is what the community seems to be focused on.
Even though a lot of these are all in based, some of them also deal with just normal play and timing attacks.
Example 1: the 10 minute timing push from terrans pvt Example 2: Safely teching to broodlords zvp
there are definitely times when races are weaker and I do agree it's important to address that as well
EPT
). 
