[D] MKP's MMM vs Zerg - Page 2

Neelia

Germany599 Posts

June 11 2012 09:21 GMT

#21

On June 11 2012 17:37 Mahtasooma wrote:
Medivacs are the counter to infestors if you can avoid them getting fungaled (which is pretty hard, agreed).

I think one of the important parts of MKP's Bio TvZ is that he often brings some SCVs to repair the Medivacs. Something that I rarely see from other people.

As I think Medivac retention is key to playing Bio against ling/Infestor.

IshinShishi

Japan6156 Posts

June 11 2012 09:38 GMT

#22

It becomes extremely hard to win once ultras are out if you don't have superb micro, anything else and you are good to go, it has been my go to composition(with variable builds) for a long time, very versatile and can be very useful for swift counter attacks such as doom drops, still, lost some games with this compo after being very far ahead because mass medivacs and very few units dont work vs ultras, they simply dont die.

eusoc

Italy82 Posts

June 11 2012 10:09 GMT

#23

On June 11 2012 18:38 IshinShishi wrote:
It becomes extremely hard to win once ultras are out if you don't have superb micro, anything else and you are good to go, it has been my go to composition(with variable builds) for a long time, very versatile and can be very useful for swift counter attacks such as doom drops, still, lost some games with this compo after being very far ahead because mass medivacs and very few units dont work vs ultras, they simply dont die.

I don't think so, as bio is much better than marine/tank vs ultras... u already have marauders, while tanks just do very little dps to ultras... so the best choice for your opponent should be infestor-BL, as u are able to get fungal on the marines and corruptor will help keeping medivac count low. Going for ultras while terran has already marauders is just bad decision making(see stephano-MKP on daybreak, IPL4)

forsakeNXE

Germany539 Posts

June 11 2012 11:21 GMT

#24

I have been playing pure Bio in TvZ since weeks exclusivly and tryed alot of builds myself cause there is not much on the forums ( i am thinking about putting together a [G] about it, too but need to get better first as 3 weeks of diablo took away the time to play sc2 (i was playing masters on ladder then, but stopped before promotion cause of d3)).

You have to realise that one fungal can and will end the game if you clump up.
You have to have really good macro as you cannot afford to let your barracks production slip alot.
You have to have good micro and splitting and multitasking to add more barracks and expand and produce behind all your pressure going on.

The key is to be in zergs face as mutch as possible but also to be able to judge when you can sit back for a minute to gather more army.

I personally ( and i know there are many ppl how think otherwise) think that dropplay is not really good with that pure bio in TvZ in early to midgame. I found it more difficult for Zerg if you trade huge armys all the time and the 8 marines that you drop somewhere else with a medivacs are often times my saviors in a big battle.

Some tips:
- Pre splitt ALL the TIME, EVERYTIME if you lose one army really bad against fungal + baneling hits you have most likely lost the game if Z is decent, if you do this massive droppplay can bring you back in the game
- you'r goal is to get around 16-22 medivacs so be careful using them (that's also why i think dropplay is more damaging to you than it helps you cause the chance of losing a medivac is always there
- I have played around with marauder : marine ratio and finally got to a point where i can say: it depends on what Z is doing:
# if Z goes for roaches go 4 rax techlab
# if Z goes for anything else go 1rax tl
# as infestors are out go up to 3-4 rax tl from your 1 rax with tl
# as ultras hit the field do not be afraid to get up to 6-7 techlabs just for the extra marauders you can make marines after all anyway

Also i find it better to build more rax instead of building reactors to continue production in the meantime.

You'r main goal is to deny his expansions and to expand yourself.

As you are in his face all the time you should try to expand frequently. I do this kinda every 5 Minutes starting at the 11 Minute mark, sometimes i even build 2 cc's right after one another.

If you are pushed back defensive Planetary like in tvp helps alot cause he will be on alot of lings most likely.

I now use the opening in the 3rd game between mkp and stephano and it works well, also i used 4rax or cc first into 6 rax alot.

I find this a very fun way to play as i often times got cornered in my 2 or 3 bases and as sieging though the middle is very difficult i really like the mobility and beeing in the zergs face at all time alot. It's sometimes frustrating to get fungaled and instant lose but well that's your own fault

gl with that! Really like it and definitly recommend using it! With a bit practice it's definitly effective.

Btw: Mutas are petty bad against pure bio as you have tons of marines producing, early ebay and ~5 turrets are protecting everything really well. Also it delays infestortech alot, if you see a muta player just attack with a huge army and alot of medivacs and win. :D

I think staying on pure ling / bling / infestor for the whole game is best on zergs site of things.

Also Bloords are a joke, just drop marauders at every expo and kill every hatchery build 2-3 more starports meanwhile and just roll the few bloords or go pure marines and kill them while Z try to take out the marauders sniping the hatches.

Daniel C

Hong Kong1606 Posts

June 11 2012 11:47 GMT

#25

On June 11 2012 17:26 ysnake wrote:
It really comes down to your micro. For example, MKP lost a game in which Stephano caught him off guard (he was on the creep, way inside Zerg territory), Fungal on his entire army and Banelings ate Marines.

That was the only time I saw his entire army melt away like that.

Still ended up winning 2-1 though.

If you're talking about game 2 in the last MLG...it wasn't MMM. But what you say still holds true in general, though.

Sircoolguy

United States81 Posts

June 11 2012 12:52 GMT

#26

So here is another thread that is on a really similar style. Basically it's a bio raven comp and a few people, myself included, have been trying to figure out how to pull that one off. So not completely sure this belongs here, but the goal was still to do a tankless style.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343345

FinalForm

United States450 Posts

June 11 2012 12:57 GMT

#27

Only MarineKing can do this, sorry guys

Roarer

Hong Kong124 Posts

June 11 2012 13:02 GMT

#28

On June 11 2012 20:47 Daniel C wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you're talking about game 2 in the last MLG...it wasn't MMM. But what you say still holds true in general, though.

Agree ... the Entomb Valley game is way different from MMM ..it is a marine + Mech play.

On June 11 2012 16:43 T.O.P. wrote:

Show nested quote +

Think he's talking about mid game mass bane busts. Either way, 3 rax wall is not the way to go when doing this build imo. You should open 1 rax cc reactor hellion into this build. Puts much more pressure vs zerg early on and it makes you safe vs early ling bane busts.

what are your goals for the reactor hellions? Do oyu mean the hellions can deny the bust ?

Neurosis

United States893 Posts

June 11 2012 13:06 GMT

#29

More important than MKP's micro, or his medivac count, or his balancing of marauders to tank splash and marines to deal damage....was by far the timings he hit. He controlled stephano, never letting him do something greedy without at the very least faking an attack to force units instead of drones. MKP gets a lot of praise for his micro but it's his brainy timings and the way he makes opponents do what HE wants that ultimately wins him the games. The thing is most casters don't even bother to bring these strategic moves up, so most people are left thinking it's literally just his micro and mechanics that are winning him games.

Anyways, if you want to pull something away from his bio play vs Stephano, check what and WHEN he does stuff with his units.

Neurosis

United States893 Posts

June 11 2012 13:19 GMT

#30

On June 11 2012 21:57 FinalForm wrote:
Only MarineKing can do this, sorry guys

And you :D

Citherna

United States33 Posts

June 11 2012 13:42 GMT

#31

Honestly, I know it seems like MKP was producing tons and tons of Medivacs, but it was actually fairly standard out of one Starport. The difference is that MKP just never -stopped- producing Medivacs, and Stephano never had enough fungals left over to kill them. I would say though that unless your micro is MKP's level, (in which you can bait out extra fungals or split effectively against overwhelming numbers of banelings/lings), and more importantly, your macro is MKP's level, (in which you can produce evenly against a three-basing zerg who swarms the field), it's probably better to just have a few solid tanks in your composition.

DawN883

Sweden558 Posts

June 11 2012 13:43 GMT

#32

On June 11 2012 15:58 dynwar7 wrote:
So basically, as a Terran I hate seeing blings splash damage melting my marines, in MKP's case he used Marauders to tank the bling splash damage too.

If you hate seeing your units die to banelings in TvZ. Do not play MMM

Darrkhan

Finland1236 Posts

June 11 2012 14:00 GMT

#33

Marinekings style is not easy to copy. I think the way he plays is really risky but it suits him well. He plays very differently than other terrans so zegs might have hard time to adapt to his playstyle. This style to use i think you have to have good micro and targetting fire.

Also his TvP is different from others. He rarely uses ghosts and starts vikings late. It can pay off (he is not for no reason being one of the best tvp players) But it can also hurt you really much.

FakeDeath

Malaysia6060 Posts

June 11 2012 14:04 GMT

#34

This style would beat ling/infestor if you have decent marine spliting and using marauders as shield and also focus fire on banelings.

But this style would straight up lose to muta/bane/lings. Because they would get crazy amount of lings/banelings and around 10 mutas(not massing them) and straight up crushed that force and destroy your medivac.

Watch DRG vs MKP in Game 1 and Game 2 in MLG Spring Championship.

Wrathsc2

United States2025 Posts

June 11 2012 14:10 GMT

#35

The ez answer is that It's good Against Infenstor play because the Zerg can't fungal medivacs all the time. Mauraders are great under medivacs with the beefy health and can snipe brofesters easily. They are also good against ultras and all the extra gas goes to upgrades/Vikings/ghost

Against muta play not so much. Mauraders are useles against Mutas and medivacs can never live f you lose your army. And you will lose your army.

I've actually stopped producing tanks once I see ling infester. They are amazing at sniping infenstors, but once ultras pop out unless you have +3 vehicle weapons the tanks do more harm then good.

peidongyang

Canada2084 Posts

June 11 2012 14:25 GMT

#36

You actually need extremely good macro and immense multitask really. I watched bomber do this against july basically by the 15 minute mark bomber's supply never fell below 150. The micro on bomber's part wasn't immaculate; he denied creep well and always got off engagements when he was ready to split this MM. Although his micro was good it was his crazy macro that won him the game.

FabledIntegral

United States9232 Posts

June 11 2012 15:56 GMT

#37

On June 11 2012 19:09 eusoc wrote:

Show nested quote +

No not really. Reason being that with marine tank, when you pull your marines back, the ultras start attacking singular units like Tanks. It's much harder when ultras are coming towards you to make it so the ultras aren't hitting the majority of your bio units if there are no tanks. At the same time, infestors while being less useful due to medivacs for the damage for fungal make the army composition significantly better with ultras - as the fungal is no longer to deal splash dmg (which helps) but to pin you vs the ultras, where ultras slaughter marauders (only when nonkited).

DeKGenetiX

United States17 Posts

June 11 2012 16:33 GMT

#38

On June 11 2012 16:31 derpinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

Im still amazed why most terrans havent figured out yet that MMM is THE way to play TvZ.

except vs muta/sling/bling

WarBobz

68 Posts

June 11 2012 16:55 GMT

#39

I did not watch ALL of MKP's games, but he did vs a zerg (forgot the zerg's name) a 10 deppot 15 CC opening. I tried perfecting that (got my macro on it starting to rise). All I remember of it: 10 deppot, 15 cc, 1 rax, OC on both when rax finished , rax @~25% -> gas. Rax finished: 1 more, +1 more cc

HeeroFX

United States2704 Posts

June 11 2012 17:20 GMT

#40

The style is very tough to pull off, but it is very fun and powerful. The hard part is the micro. Maraders can eat banelings. You need to maintain a very high medivac count. And I think You need to be the aggressor in this situation. I have been practicing this style on the ladder since I love the mobility of Bio and how you have to be active on the map with it. Pure Mech is kinda boring to me. Another thing about this style is you gotta be producing all the time, your units are cheap and you will trade armies. Bio mech is good, if you add some tanks into this style just to control space. It works good vs infestor/ling/ultra. You can use drop play to pull the infestors away from the ultras, you can kite ultras all day if the infestors are trying to fungul a drop.

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[D] MKP's MMM vs Zerg - Page 2

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