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[D] MKP's MMM vs Zerg - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Shox85
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany33 Posts
June 11 2012 17:22 GMT
#41
I'm Diamond and I'm playing MMM nearly all the time in TvZ and its my best matchup. Sometimes I build a handfull of tanks for defence.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
June 11 2012 17:26 GMT
#42
On June 12 2012 02:20 HeeroFX wrote:
The style is very tough to pull off, but it is very fun and powerful. The hard part is the micro. Maraders can eat banelings. You need to maintain a very high medivac count. And I think You need to be the aggressor in this situation. I have been practicing this style on the ladder since I love the mobility of Bio and how you have to be active on the map with it. Pure Mech is kinda boring to me. Another thing about this style is you gotta be producing all the time, your units are cheap and you will trade armies. Bio mech is good, if you add some tanks into this style just to control space. It works good vs infestor/ling/ultra. You can use drop play to pull the infestors away from the ultras, you can kite ultras all day if the infestors are trying to fungul a drop.


Well, except that's kinda nonsensical to say the infestors are pulled away. The Zerg usually has like 8+ infestors. They don't send all 8 to deal with a drop... they usually have a spine or something and use lings to handle drops, not infestors (or they use 1-2 tops).
9-BiT
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States1089 Posts
June 11 2012 17:54 GMT
#43
What are your thoughts on adding ravens if you can win before the deathball? And then keep dropping and sniping extractors.
kwark_uk: @father_sc learn to play maybe?
reikai
Profile Joined January 2011
United States359 Posts
June 11 2012 18:03 GMT
#44
On June 11 2012 16:07 Battousai13 wrote:
MarineKing's play sits on a razor's edge. It is very dependent on his ability to micro. At the same time, it's a double-edge blade because a mis-step in micro or decision making and it all falls apart.


This. This by itself makes it a great tool to learn that you actually don't need to rely on tanks to win, and it will improve your macro/micro (or you'll lose a lot :D), but you may only need tanks at your level. At lower levels, tanks work just as well since the zerg is much slower at setting up surrounds or concaves/good general army position.

The advantage gained by marineking by choosing this non-tank path is that he can attack and move up much faster than having to siege/desiege tanks in order to not be broken by any zerg A-move.

If you want to try this I really suggest watching your army a lot and learning to macro without looking (which you should be doing anyway). Use control clicks to separate marines and marauders approriately and play lots of marine split challenge :D

masters terran
Et Ducit Mundum Per Luce. :T:
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-11 18:05:57
June 11 2012 18:04 GMT
#45
On June 12 2012 02:54 9-BiT wrote:
What are your thoughts on adding ravens if you can win before the deathball? And then keep dropping and sniping extractors.


Personally (not sure who you're asking), if they're going infestor/ling I add banshees to the army, and if they're going ling/bling/muta I add ravens. Either way I get starports with tech labs as soon as I start to accumulate some gas. Ravens aren't very useful beyond 1-2 vs ling/infestor/ultra, but can come in handy if they go BL. Also, if they go BL, you've luckily (no matter their composition) built already 4 starports (ish), 1 with a reactor and 3(ish) with tech labs.


On June 12 2012 03:03 reikai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2012 16:07 Battousai13 wrote:
MarineKing's play sits on a razor's edge. It is very dependent on his ability to micro. At the same time, it's a double-edge blade because a mis-step in micro or decision making and it all falls apart.


This. This by itself makes it a great tool to learn that you actually don't need to rely on tanks to win, and it will improve your macro/micro (or you'll lose a lot :D), but you may only need tanks at your level. At lower levels, tanks work just as well since the zerg is much slower at setting up surrounds or concaves/good general army position.

The advantage gained by marineking by choosing this non-tank path is that he can attack and move up much faster than having to siege/desiege tanks in order to not be broken by any zerg A-move.

If you want to try this I really suggest watching your army a lot and learning to macro without looking (which you should be doing anyway). Use control clicks to separate marines and marauders approriately and play lots of marine split challenge :D

masters terran



Control clicks? You mean just putting your marines in a separate control group...? Trying to actual use "ctrl click" on marines would be suicide. You have your MMM all in one control group, and those same marines (just themselves) in another...
-FoX
Profile Joined November 2010
United States479 Posts
June 11 2012 18:34 GMT
#46
Bio play has always been considered "viable" in TvZ at high levels but it is entirely based upon the Terran players ability to out-micro the Zerg player. It seems almost as if bio play is most viable if the Terran knows his skill level/micro is better than his Zerg opponent. In MKP's case, he probably knows his micro is better than any Zerg player out there so he has no qualms about playing a heavy MMM style against Zergs, regardless of Infestors/Banelings. MKP is one of the very few we every see try this style simply because most Terrans do not have enough APM to make this MMM/Bio style effective against high level Zergs.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
June 11 2012 18:37 GMT
#47
This is actually used quiet a bit on the korean server. When I face this on NA ladder it's an easy win because they don't seem to have the micro. You really need to have good micro to do this effectively and is probably not viable lower levels.

A terran who doesn't have good micro will never be able to do this and win in a normal game as you need to be able to split well and not have 3 banelings kill 20 marines every time.
When I think of something else, something will go here
GhostLink
Profile Joined January 2011
United States450 Posts
June 11 2012 18:53 GMT
#48
MKP played this style in the last round of Code A last season, and Yugioh shut it down rather efficiently with mass infestors and ultras. The key is to kill the medivacs. Maybe mix a few hydras into the army for this sole purpose? Fungal the medivacs, and instead of using infested terrans, have 3-4 hydras take care of them. Given the massive amounts of creepspread encouraged by the queen ranged upgrade (zerg players build more queens), it might work.
Let a man play chess, and tell him that every pawn is his friend. Let him think both bishops holy. Let him remember happy days in the shadows of his castles. Let him love his queen. Watch him lose them all.
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
June 11 2012 19:25 GMT
#49
so how would this survive the mid game mass baneling bust kind of thing?
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
-FoX
Profile Joined November 2010
United States479 Posts
June 11 2012 19:40 GMT
#50
On June 12 2012 04:25 zhurai wrote:
so how would this survive the mid game mass baneling bust kind of thing?


I'd think it'd be an issue of scouting, and then reacting. Getting proper spread of your marines pre-bust and also having enough bunkers spread out and walled, etc to withhold the mass banelings.
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
June 11 2012 19:46 GMT
#51
It would also be very map dependent. On a map like entombed you can wall off entirely with barracks and be completely safe, as MKP showed. But other maps with a smaller ramp you would be in a lot of trouble.
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
FT.aCt)Sony
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1049 Posts
June 11 2012 19:52 GMT
#52
On June 11 2012 16:37 AeroEffect wrote:
Ive been playing mmm vs z for a while now. MarineKing actually did one of my builds vs stephano. I was really shocked.


Are you sure you haven't been doing one of his builds? :o
XXXSmOke
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States1333 Posts
June 11 2012 19:58 GMT
#53
I hope this doesnt become standard...

MMM is boring enough in TvP

It wont be fun watching MMM in TvZ and TvP. Really need HoTs
Emperor? Boxer disapproves. He's building bunkers at your mom's house even as you're reading this.
crocodile
Profile Joined February 2011
United States615 Posts
June 11 2012 20:22 GMT
#54
On June 12 2012 04:58 XXXSmOke wrote:
I hope this doesnt become standard...

MMM is boring enough in TvP

It wont be fun watching MMM in TvZ and TvP. Really need HoTs

Are you actually worried about MMM becoming standard in TvZ?
Master League Terran. Huge fan of Quantic Gaming and ROOTDestiny
ysnake
Profile Joined June 2012
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
June 11 2012 20:25 GMT
#55
On June 11 2012 22:06 Neurosis wrote:
More important than MKP's micro, or his medivac count, or his balancing of marauders to tank splash and marines to deal damage....was by far the timings he hit. He controlled stephano, never letting him do something greedy without at the very least faking an attack to force units instead of drones. MKP gets a lot of praise for his micro but it's his brainy timings and the way he makes opponents do what HE wants that ultimately wins him the games. The thing is most casters don't even bother to bring these strategic moves up, so most people are left thinking it's literally just his micro and mechanics that are winning him games.

Anyways, if you want to pull something away from his bio play vs Stephano, check what and WHEN he does stuff with his units.


This was actually pointed out by Artosis. MKP "faked" an attack, moved his entire army across the map, then just went back home.

But yeah, MKP is one hell of a player.
You are no longer automatically breathing and blinking.
-FoX
Profile Joined November 2010
United States479 Posts
June 11 2012 20:30 GMT
#56
On June 12 2012 04:58 XXXSmOke wrote:
I hope this doesnt become standard...

MMM is boring enough in TvP

It wont be fun watching MMM in TvZ and TvP. Really need HoTs


If having 300 EPM because standard for Terran players then maybe but at this point, no.
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
June 11 2012 21:26 GMT
#57
I do this every TvZ. It's the best way to play by far. An early medivac timing helps clear creep and maybe do some damage if they take a fast third as they won't have much tech yet. In the late game you need to go 3 factory with 3/0 mech upgrades for tank thor transition, as the mech units help a lot if you weren't able to do enough damage to the zerg and their infestor/baneling count gets out of control. With very good micro you can get away with few or no tanks, but tanks (even as few as 2-3) help a ton in zoning infestors and banelings, which lets you use your MMM even better. You simply target fire the infestors if they get too close.

I would say some maps are very hard for bio, but it is a great style if you can micro and multitask well.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
FinalForm
Profile Joined August 2010
United States450 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-11 21:52:28
June 11 2012 21:51 GMT
#58
I have been doing something similar to this style for a long time. I find it fun but the micro required to prevent 60+ units from "balling up" is ridiculous.

Pre-splitting is great, however not always realistic. If you are not map aware then a zerg army blindsiding you from a direction you were not prepare can cost you the game. The best case scenario is you attacking a zerg who is cowering in his base, with his army set up and positioned in a very predictable fashion.

I find that this style relies heavily on how well you can mitigate the fungals. If a zerg is sloppy with his fungals or you juke and prod well enough to force him to waste them then you have a much better change of surviving. In addition of you find that your zerg is the type that uses too much infest energy to deal with drops (sometimes he will use 2 fungals, 3 infesteds), then keep doing the drops and he will run dry.
MarTerran
Profile Joined June 2012
Germany8 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-11 23:35:52
June 11 2012 23:34 GMT
#59
This playstyle is pretty good in general.
As already said, it's weakness is poorly microed bio.
But in fact you trade way more cost effecient than Zerg does. You'll mostly have equal or more bases, because you mobility is as awesome as ****. So it's super easy to kill Zerg's bases.. Just think about Cloud Kingdom.. Zerg will never have more than 3-4 bases..
He is mobile for sure, too. But you can allow to just let 1/2 or 3/4 of your army fight against his army, the other part can do runby meanwhile.. And kill bases. (or drop)
Static defenses arent the problem due to marauders.

Sure, you'll need higher APM and have to play a lot of attention.. But with the recent changes in TvZ, i think, due to it's mobility, high DPS and varibility - pure bio has the most potential. And it superboosted with good micro (because you will trade more cost effecient than Zerg does by far)
A small amount of micro (splitting, putting Marauders in front) is necessary though.

Zerg wont go T3 - Brood lords against this.. If he did, his army is too slow, so you would kill everything.
Ultralisks are rather weak due to marauder..
Muta Ling isn't good as well..

There is nearly no good option for a Zerg. Just Infestor Ultralisks Baneling with awesome fungles.. But again: With decent micro and paying attention he shouldn't get those fungles.. And you could also do drops against this..

I really like pure bio and start to play it more and more..
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
June 11 2012 23:42 GMT
#60
Mass medivac is so good vs. infestor play due to the fact the Zerg really can never kill the medivacs.
SC2 Mapmaker
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