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[D] MKP's MMM vs Zerg - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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DarkerThanKuro
Profile Joined April 2012
United States61 Posts
June 11 2012 23:49 GMT
#61
On June 12 2012 08:42 lorestarcraft wrote:
Mass medivac is so good vs. infestor play due to the fact the Zerg really can never kill the medivacs.



THIS THIS THIS THIS

That and with all of my bio builds for TvZ, I go for double ebay play to make sure my upgrades are ahead. It helps you trade so much better.
Kancolle player
fobtasticfury
Profile Joined August 2011
United States17 Posts
June 11 2012 23:57 GMT
#62
wasn't MMM basically standard in beta and when the game first came out?
crocodile
Profile Joined February 2011
United States615 Posts
June 12 2012 00:29 GMT
#63
On June 12 2012 08:42 lorestarcraft wrote:
Mass medivac is so good vs. infestor play due to the fact the Zerg really can never kill the medivacs.

Unless the Zerg uses 2 fungals and 3 infested terrans
Master League Terran. Huge fan of Quantic Gaming and ROOTDestiny
forsakeNXE
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany539 Posts
June 12 2012 00:35 GMT
#64
On June 12 2012 08:49 DarkerThanKuro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2012 08:42 lorestarcraft wrote:
Mass medivac is so good vs. infestor play due to the fact the Zerg really can never kill the medivacs.



THIS THIS THIS THIS

That and with all of my bio builds for TvZ, I go for double ebay play to make sure my upgrades are ahead. It helps you trade so much better.


Can you pm/link me some and esp. the upgrade build u use? I would like to give it a try Also some reps would be nice! thx!
Let's learn together!
Ace1123
Profile Joined September 2011
Philippines1187 Posts
June 12 2012 00:39 GMT
#65
Can anyone help me on splitting. And also i dont know how do these pro pre-splitt their units. Thnk!
ForGG, Mvp, MMA, MarineKing, BoxeR,
trias_e
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States520 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-12 00:51:59
June 12 2012 00:50 GMT
#66
I love getting into midgame with this build but I just get owned every time by a 8-10 minute ling/bling bust. I have no idea how you are supposed to defend it, I'll have 4 bunkers up and still get wrecked.
BluMac
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada1 Post
June 12 2012 01:13 GMT
#67
As others have said previously, his MMM build is very contextual and dependent on his ability to split his units. a lot of other plays would find it hard to emulate this style because it requires a lot of multitasking. You'd have to be able to micro effectively, expand, as well as put your marauders to the front to tank bane hits while also splitting, which is quite difficult.

Not to mention the fact that if you are caught unaware for even a second the zerg could potentially fungal your entire army and roll banelings through you only chance at victory.
Experience comprises illusions lost, rather than wisdom gained.
Jaegeru
Profile Joined February 2012
United Kingdom676 Posts
June 12 2012 02:12 GMT
#68
I've been trying this recently going 1 rax FE into 3 rax with double gas then getting a single tech lab for stim and going straight into double upgrades, then a factory before my other add-ons and having a reasonable amount of success in doing so against the popular infestor and upgraded lings into a fast hive style that stephano popularised.
MVP on winning his Fourth GSL - "Yeah I know the routine, take the flowers and cheque, I will kiss the trophy for the photo"
Iron_
Profile Joined April 2010
United States389 Posts
June 12 2012 02:32 GMT
#69
I had some success also with a 1 rax FE into bio and fast upgrades, but the popular 8:30 roach/ling/bling attack killed me everytime without fail. So I morphed my opening into the "Demuslim" attack (Illusion used it vs Stephano also at Redbull on Cloud Kingdom). Easiest thing to do is just go watch the redbull game of Illusion vs Stephano.

Basically, it is gas with the 2nd to last worker built (go all the way to 17 pop before OC), CC, factory, reactor on first rax, 2 more rax, 2 tech labs on raxes, early ebay with +1, stim as soon as tech lab finishes, combat shield around 30% stim done, make army of hellion/marine/marader, then go attack the third around 9:30 when stim hits.

In that game, Illusion defended the infamous (to me anyway) 8:30 attack and held his own. He lost, but overall it looked pretty good.
WaKai
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada88 Posts
June 12 2012 03:19 GMT
#70
I'm greedy, but every zerg fe's so it's very viable. Basically this is a way to play against zerg that uses the positive attributes of zerg and terran together. (high micro potential, high amount of production). The reason this build works is because you match the zerg in ups and production. This means the zerg cannot eco once your attack starts. It feels weird at first not attacking at all for so long but you'll see that you can match and surpass the zergs eco. I could start introducing more drops in my play, but it's unnecessary for me right now. (games played vs diamond and high plat)
http://drop.sc/players/US/1222927/vVvWaKai
Also, i've released a series of blogs on getting better... will answer some of your questions and i have one entry specifically for splitting.
http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/user/17406-vvv-wakai/
the one at the complete bottom is the microing one.
vvvgaming.com @vVv_WaKa http://www.facebook.com/#!/vVvWaKai http://www.twitch.tv/vvvwakai
gengka
Profile Joined September 2010
Malaysia461 Posts
June 12 2012 03:31 GMT
#71
Really interested in this strategy, anyone has any good replay to share? I'm so sick of the weak tanks. and seems like blizzard has no intention whatsoever to buff up the stupid tanks just yet.

Make Love Not War
storkman
Profile Joined June 2011
United States157 Posts
June 12 2012 03:39 GMT
#72
If you go MMM style you have to go double engineering bay because without sufficient upgrades just ling/bane will kill you. This style is very micro dependent so if you are in a lower league i would actually try to use these types of builds to really tax your multi-tasking and micro. This style is very viable but if you lose your initial army and first 2 medivacs doing no damage you are set extremely far behind.
OH YEAH
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
June 12 2012 03:47 GMT
#73
There is nothing spectacularly new or game changing about bio in TvZ. It is definitely 100% viable, it is just not used that much. The same thing can be said for mech in TvZ, it is also not used very much but widely agreed to be completely viable on all levels. Bio, biomech and mech are all just very different animals that require very different things and my personal take is that bio and mech are probably less common simply because of the fact that they take a lot more practice to get right. I mean, people say that bio is a lot more dangerous to play because you are relying on micro and if you fail an engagement it is over. Well for TvZ if you fail a huge engagement and lose your army with ANY composition you are for all intents and purposes dead.

I like to think of a scale with micro on one side and positioning on the other, this scale identifies where a unit composition gets its functionality from. Pure mech is furthest out on the positioning side of the scale meaning that it is 100% reliant on the positioning of your own units, and your ability to read and restrict the army movement of your opponent. It requires almost no micro, being on the positioning side of the scale subsequently means that if you make a mistake in positioning, move too far with everything unsieged without knowing where the enemy army is, you will probably lose your army and that is game.

Bio is on the opposite side of the scale and relies as much on micro as mech does on positioning. Bio on the other hand is almost completely ignorant of positioning, same thing here, if you fail to control your army correctly you will lose. Biomech, or to an extension various compositions of skymech falls a bit more towards the center of the scale requiring both positioning and micro to function but at the same time do not get punished to the same extent by a mistake on one. I reckon this is why biomech is more standard and because it is in the middle of the scale it also allows it to utilize both positioning and micro in engagements.

That explains I think why biomech is more common, but it does not mean that it is in any way "better". As long as you understand how the different styles work, that is when you can start to go with the one that suits your style the most.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5357 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-12 03:58:18
June 12 2012 03:57 GMT
#74
On June 12 2012 09:35 Enemyy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2012 08:49 DarkerThanKuro wrote:
On June 12 2012 08:42 lorestarcraft wrote:
Mass medivac is so good vs. infestor play due to the fact the Zerg really can never kill the medivacs.



THIS THIS THIS THIS

That and with all of my bio builds for TvZ, I go for double ebay play to make sure my upgrades are ahead. It helps you trade so much better.


Can you pm/link me some and esp. the upgrade build u use? I would like to give it a try Also some reps would be nice! thx!

LOL almost every TvZ build now uses fast double ups since fast upgraded lings into infestors is what 99% of zergs are doing right now, it's not very hard to plop down two ebays and get a faster 3rd gas
¯\_(シ)_/¯
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
June 12 2012 03:59 GMT
#75
On June 11 2012 16:31 derpinator wrote:
Show nested quote +
I would love to hear your opinion whether this style (MMM with heavy medivacs) will actually work vs Zerg?


Im still amazed why most terrans havent figured out yet that MMM is THE way to play TvZ.

It was a long time ago, back in the days of old.
Then people discovered that infestors were good, and included them in most army compositions. MMM sort of faded away when zergs included a bunch of AOE units in their army.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
rQdjay
Profile Joined November 2011
United States22 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-12 04:23:38
June 12 2012 04:20 GMT
#76
I am a mid masters zerg and was running into this strategy more and more on ladder (this was probably 3-4 months ago). I have a smurf for every race and I decided to use an MKP build where u go 1 rax expo into a 1-1 combat shield 9 min timing attack while getting a 3rd behind it. This I believe was MLG Columbus but could be wrong. During I believe MLG Winter Arena finals it was quite simple, I only counted 4 siege tank volleys going off in the series vs drg. The tanks were worthless. This blew my mind and I decided to use MKP's 1 rax expo w/ timing push on ladder, but instead of getting tanks when I establish my third I just make moar marines. Your 3-3 finishes stupidly fast at around 14 mins I believe and the zerg cannot keep up. On my terran smurf I left every tvt and tvp and only played tvz. It is still high diamond and would definitely be masters if I did not leave all those but I would rather cut my hands off than play tvt, that is a different story. Anyways my win rate is 85-1 going marine medivac (no marauders). I never made 1 tank and on several maps made my 3rd a planetary but there is a point where u can keep making OC so you can nonstop mule. The goal with this style is to literally drop EVERYWHERE while also pushing with some army. What will happen is that your army will get crushed, get crushed, get crushed, get crushed, get crushed, get crushed, get destroyed, and then all of a sudden you have this one engagement where the zerg has spent so much on blings/infestors and runs out of them and all of a sudden you are left with basically a medivac per marine and then you have an unstoppable push where the zerg gets to a point where he is only rallying lings and 3-3 marines w/ medivacs can nom-nom on lings as long as he doesnt have a lot of surface area. The strategy is to never give up never surrender because you will have one push that dominates the zerg. A lot of people say "once the zerg has infestors and ultras out the bio gets destroyed" If you let the zerg get to that point then you arent dropping enough. If he does get to that point you have to pray that you can get good surface area and are quick on repairing your planetaries. Also, once ultras come out, they cannot deal with drop harass at all, ultras are only good in straight up fights. With this style my food count never goes up over 140-150 and that might sound terrible, but the moment you get that push that dominates the zerg you skyrocket to 200/200. Off of 3 bases you can make around 25 marines at a time w/ medivacs and if you are able to build up enough oribitals you are able to get insane production. I have not played around with marauders but unless ultras are out, you have to use them to tank bling hits and snipe infestors and being able to do that is a million times harder than it sounds, but Polt is a freaking boss at it. Just keep building medivacs, obviously the joke within the community is that marines are imba, but the reality is that medivacs are :D

Edit: now with 4 queen opener the 1-1 combat shield push outright kills zergs that are greedy and skip baneling nest or at least their 3rd is 99% guaranteed dead
MetalGear
Profile Joined February 2012
Australia47 Posts
June 12 2012 06:20 GMT
#77
I really like the MMA banshee hellion opening into bio gives a fast third and quick upgrades but i don't think it is as difficult as people make it out to be its more about positioning and making sure your army is always spread when you are idol so you are not caught off guard. Then make sure you know where the zerg army is when you move out which means sending single marines in different directions taking the watch towers even sending a medivac to the zerg army always works well. Then spread your units and engage with small groups and watch as your cloud of medivacs heal through all the lings and fungul.
Marooned
Profile Joined January 2011
Norway161 Posts
June 12 2012 10:25 GMT
#78
I only think this is viable if you have very good micro. It is pretty macro intensive as well. You need to be able to mass up a new army back home and keep pressuring all the time. One really bad engagement/failed split and you are in pretty bad shape. Ive started to face this more and more, and it is very rare that I play against someone that is capable to play this style on my level (1k master). But I bet it is a fun and challenging style to play so gogo
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
June 13 2012 03:24 GMT
#79
On June 12 2012 13:20 djdanny wrote:
I am a mid masters zerg and was running into this strategy more and more on ladder (this was probably 3-4 months ago). I have a smurf for every race and I decided to use an MKP build where u go 1 rax expo into a 1-1 combat shield 9 min timing attack while getting a 3rd behind it. This I believe was MLG Columbus but could be wrong. During I believe MLG Winter Arena finals it was quite simple, I only counted 4 siege tank volleys going off in the series vs drg. The tanks were worthless. This blew my mind and I decided to use MKP's 1 rax expo w/ timing push on ladder, but instead of getting tanks when I establish my third I just make moar marines. Your 3-3 finishes stupidly fast at around 14 mins I believe and the zerg cannot keep up. On my terran smurf I left every tvt and tvp and only played tvz. It is still high diamond and would definitely be masters if I did not leave all those but I would rather cut my hands off than play tvt, that is a different story. Anyways my win rate is 85-1 going marine medivac (no marauders). I never made 1 tank and on several maps made my 3rd a planetary but there is a point where u can keep making OC so you can nonstop mule. The goal with this style is to literally drop EVERYWHERE while also pushing with some army. What will happen is that your army will get crushed, get crushed, get crushed, get crushed, get crushed, get crushed, get destroyed, and then all of a sudden you have this one engagement where the zerg has spent so much on blings/infestors and runs out of them and all of a sudden you are left with basically a medivac per marine and then you have an unstoppable push where the zerg gets to a point where he is only rallying lings and 3-3 marines w/ medivacs can nom-nom on lings as long as he doesnt have a lot of surface area. The strategy is to never give up never surrender because you will have one push that dominates the zerg. A lot of people say "once the zerg has infestors and ultras out the bio gets destroyed" If you let the zerg get to that point then you arent dropping enough. If he does get to that point you have to pray that you can get good surface area and are quick on repairing your planetaries. Also, once ultras come out, they cannot deal with drop harass at all, ultras are only good in straight up fights. With this style my food count never goes up over 140-150 and that might sound terrible, but the moment you get that push that dominates the zerg you skyrocket to 200/200. Off of 3 bases you can make around 25 marines at a time w/ medivacs and if you are able to build up enough oribitals you are able to get insane production. I have not played around with marauders but unless ultras are out, you have to use them to tank bling hits and snipe infestors and being able to do that is a million times harder than it sounds, but Polt is a freaking boss at it. Just keep building medivacs, obviously the joke within the community is that marines are imba, but the reality is that medivacs are :D

Edit: now with 4 queen opener the 1-1 combat shield push outright kills zergs that are greedy and skip baneling nest or at least their 3rd is 99% guaranteed dead


I don't even agree when people say that it is over against ultra/infestor. Ultralisk is the one tier 3 option that bio is amazingly good against and as for infestors I actually find them to be a huge liability against bio. Infestors might be really good against tank/marine that needs to push in leaps or against pure marine where you just die really fast but if you have a good marauder ratio and a lot of medivacs, and you split well, infestors are actually going to get zerg killed because they take up too much gas without doing nearly enough damage.

The only thing I do fear with bio is infestor / broodlord, but it is almost impossible to get to that point for zerg without getting completely destroyed during the transition if you are maintaining constant aggression.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
goFLiP
Profile Joined November 2010
Argentina39 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 03:34:24
June 13 2012 03:34 GMT
#80
Bio is just effective because zerg metagame shifted into infestors. Back when WoL came out ling bling muta raped bio and that's how marine tank got popular. Obviously, nobody had the micro like they do now so probably they can deal better with ling bling muta, however I like this metagame shift into bio because it will make TvZ a bit more reactive.

I still think TvZ is broken but bio can maybe bring some fresh air to T.
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