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On June 17 2012 05:20 CodECleaR wrote:
"that s why i didn t cancel the stargates"
I don't think you read what he wrote perfectly. He's saying that he was suspicious (people can get suspicious feelings w/o scouting perfectly, that's how stephano plays--instinctual style), so he threw down 2x stargates and then when he knew for certain hidden spire, he didn't CANCEL them. If he saw something else he would have cancelled them and then it would have been 74/74 wasted, not 300/300.
first of all this is correct, i m playing instinctual
the next thing
i watched the replay again and you wanted to know why i was suspicious
if you take a look at my vision just when i was starting to build the stargates, i saw him building spines
and ohana is a mutalisk map, so i thought i ll just start the stargates just in case
as above said, with that i can win games vs muta players, and if they don t go muta i can still cancel the stargates, for example if i see a infestation pit upgrading or as said 1000 times i see him building roach/ling
but keep in mind, do players build spines if they go roach ling? no
if they go infestor? no, just when they are teching to broodlords
what s left? mutas
does this help you?
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Nice guide bro, I feel like departing from my ol' 8 gate already ^_^
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Sase used this build in mlg,if he goes mutas well good game :p
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Nice Guide and very good vs. the Roach Style. I tried it myself and it worked wonders !
GL for getting grandmaster, i hope you remember me 
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On June 17 2012 20:13 darkness wrote:http://drop.sc/190739 Cloud Kingdom vs Roaches --- Isn't it a big mistake he didn't make any lings?
it s not, lings just get eaten by sentry/zealot
really, roaches do a lot better
On June 17 2012 20:12 iSHOKZ wrote:Nice Guide and very good vs. the Roach Style. I tried it myself and it worked wonders ! GL for getting grandmaster, i hope you remember me
i do :D
i ll send you a pm whether i made it or not 
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Austria24422 Posts
Cool, will try the build today. My PvZ is pretty good once I get to the multitasking stage so I'm always thankful for safe openings allowing me to get there ^_^
Gonna try to chrono out a warp prism sometime in between the immortals, I like to have one on the field in PvZ from the midgame on to keep the zerg a little bit worried, pressure expansions and maybe force some static defense. Shouldn't hurt me too much if I do the hallucination scouting right.
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What would be the best following if you want to reach the 15min timings with colossi mass stalkers before broodlords ?
Can you develop specific timings ? thanks !
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I'd like to know what you do if your opponent rallies 12-24 slow lings to your third. As a Zerg player I see you cutting probes early, and I will happily make a round of slowlings. At the time you actually want to take your expansion you have so little units that slow lings will easily delay, and since it cost you economy we'll end up in a position where your doompush is delayed heavily. Often I can even get away with rallying a minor round of roaches there, making Zealot/Sentry pretty bad at breaking my contain, forcing immortals at which point I'll walk home.
What is your response to having slowlings at your third?
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On June 17 2012 21:32 Xana wrote:
I'd like to know what you do if your opponent rallies 12-24 slow lings to your third. As a Zerg player I see you cutting probes early, and I will happily make a round of slowlings. At the time you actually want to take your expansion you have so little units that slow lings will easily delay, and since it cost you economy we'll end up in a position where your doompush is delayed heavily. Often I can even get away with rallying a minor round of roaches there, making Zealot/Sentry pretty bad at breaking my contain, forcing immortals at which point I'll walk home.
What is your response to having slowlings at your third?
when your slow lings arrive my nexus is usually half done and i have 1 zealot+2 sentrys with my 4 gates almost up
so
i let my nexus tank and kill all lings when warpgate is done
slowlings are so easy to kill
i have +1 weapon then too
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Spain24 Posts
Nice guide... But i think u are a hacker i see 2 reeplays and u did the counter for build with no obs.
Game vs Elvis: u scout with obs but he have the spire hiden, and u do 2 stargate... maybe luck?
Game vs Haypro: when the 2 drops come ur base, u didnt scout, but u move all ur army to drop zone... maybe luck?
... i dont gonna see other replays ..
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On June 17 2012 21:59 Mamoru wrote:
Nice guide... But i think u are a hacker i see 2 reeplays and u did the counter for build with no obs.
Game vs Elvis: u scout with obs but he have the spire hiden, and u do 2 stargate... maybe luck?
Game vs Haypro: when the 2 drops come ur base, u didnt scout, but u move all ur army to drop zone... maybe luck?
... i dont gonna see other replays ..
srsly please read this whole thread about my scouting and gamesense
and stop claiming everyone a hacker, you don t understand anything
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I saw someone mention the Nestea build which I think includes a 5 minute gas for speed at around 7 minutes and I believe this is the main counter to this build, as your speed should be done just in time to deny the 3rd.
Anyway, that's what I've been doing for awhile now because a friend of mine showed me a very similar build with a super early 3rd. I think that's why Dimaga gets his early speed as well.
So yeah, what do you do if the zerg gets a 5 minute gas? Can you even scout that? Usually protoss I play don't go back to my base at that point because the zerg is establishing the 3rd. Also, I think a queen plus 1 or 2 lings could kill any probe trying to get in the main.
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On June 17 2012 22:31 Mauzel wrote:
I saw someone mention the Nestea build which I think includes a 5 minute gas for speed at around 7 minutes and I believe this is the main counter to this build, as your speed should be done just in time to deny the 3rd.
Anyway, that's what I've been doing for awhile now because a friend of mine showed me a very similar build with a super early 3rd. I think that's why Dimaga gets his early speed as well.
So yeah, what do you do if the zerg gets a 5 minute gas? Can you even scout that? Usually protoss I play don't go back to my base at that point because the zerg is establishing the 3rd. Also, I think a queen plus 1 or 2 lings could kill any probe trying to get in the main.
i ll make it short and i ll say you can t scout the gas and you might not be able to hold your 3.
but if a zerg get s gas + lings he s investing
so you can cancel your 3. and just sit back and expand with 7 gate robo again
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On June 17 2012 22:37 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 22:31 Mauzel wrote:
I saw someone mention the Nestea build which I think includes a 5 minute gas for speed at around 7 minutes and I believe this is the main counter to this build, as your speed should be done just in time to deny the 3rd.
Anyway, that's what I've been doing for awhile now because a friend of mine showed me a very similar build with a super early 3rd. I think that's why Dimaga gets his early speed as well.
So yeah, what do you do if the zerg gets a 5 minute gas? Can you even scout that? Usually protoss I play don't go back to my base at that point because the zerg is establishing the 3rd. Also, I think a queen plus 1 or 2 lings could kill any probe trying to get in the main. i ll make it short and i ll say you can t scout the gas and you might not be able to hold your 3. but if a zerg get s gas + lings he s investing so you can cancel your 3. and just sit back and expand with 7 gate robo again
not really, you're pretty far behind with 7 gate robo if he already has mutas out (he can go up to 4-5 base) and you're still on 2 base with robo tech. (you can't do a timing attack because it'll be too late and zerg will happily base race)
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On June 17 2012 22:43 LgNKane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 22:37 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:On June 17 2012 22:31 Mauzel wrote:
I saw someone mention the Nestea build which I think includes a 5 minute gas for speed at around 7 minutes and I believe this is the main counter to this build, as your speed should be done just in time to deny the 3rd.
Anyway, that's what I've been doing for awhile now because a friend of mine showed me a very similar build with a super early 3rd. I think that's why Dimaga gets his early speed as well.
So yeah, what do you do if the zerg gets a 5 minute gas? Can you even scout that? Usually protoss I play don't go back to my base at that point because the zerg is establishing the 3rd. Also, I think a queen plus 1 or 2 lings could kill any probe trying to get in the main. i ll make it short and i ll say you can t scout the gas and you might not be able to hold your 3. but if a zerg get s gas + lings he s investing so you can cancel your 3. and just sit back and expand with 7 gate robo again not really, you're pretty far behind with 7 gate robo if he already has mutas out (he can go up to 4-5 base) and you're still on 2 base with robo tech.
you still have your early observer to scout
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Nice guide. I started using something very very similar a few days ago though I get 1 obs instead of hallucination. I think I may get hallucination the next few games I play with it. From what I have seen you can hold with 1 robo and you can just thrown another down with the robo bay depending on their tech switch that you scout.
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On June 17 2012 23:01 YolBolsun wrote:
Nice guide. I started using something very very similar a few days ago though I get 1 obs instead of hallucination. I think I may get hallucination the next few games I play with it. From what I have seen you can hold with 1 robo and you can just thrown another down with the robo bay depending on their tech switch that you scout.
indeed
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On June 17 2012 06:13 cvgHuShang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 05:20 CodECleaR wrote:
"that s why i didn t cancel the stargates"
I don't think you read what he wrote perfectly. He's saying that he was suspicious (people can get suspicious feelings w/o scouting perfectly, that's how stephano plays--instinctual style), so he threw down 2x stargates and then when he knew for certain hidden spire, he didn't CANCEL them. If he saw something else he would have cancelled them and then it would have been 74/74 wasted, not 300/300. right, so he had intuition, so lets say he's making a 60% gamble instead of a 50% gamble. Either way he's not telling us what gave him this intuition, if he did which is what i would like to know about then it would make sense. As it is, throwing up 300/300 not 74/74... is resources not getting put into most importantly, sentries and immortals but also stalkers is a huge investment and there is no way that I see him holding a strong stephano roach type attack. Besides, this is a guide, telling us 'o, you should react on intuition if he's going muta or roach' isn't helping anyone. I can tell bronze players that they're bad as much as I want but until I show them what they are doing wrong and how to improve it isn't really going to help now is it? On top of this, there are infestor roach builds that will take 6 gasses, so I don't see how him scouting 6 gas tells him for sure that it is spire anyways not that he scouted that in the first place. edit: on your stephano point, you'll notice idra stating how bad of a teacher stephano is. 'the only way you can learn from stephano is by watching him'. I don't see how this point validates anything in his guide.
The 300/300 investment is temporary, you cancel, get back money, and spend it because you are going immortal+tech+4gate (usually stalker/sentry). On the stephano point, IdrA isn't the only one who has given interviews and been asked questions about stephano. Stephano himself has said in interviews he doesn't know why a player is doing something, he just knows it. I'd like to make it clear i'm not defending this guide or saying the build is amazing, but rather acting as an interpreter for what the writer is saying based off of my understanding of this style of play. Also if you scout 6gas then roach attack will be delayed until zerg builds a few infestors to come with it. Read his next post to see why he thought mutas. Because 2x stargate is an instinctual reaction, I really don't approve of it and I prefer going templar tech once i scout spire because it's not a terrible investment if he ends up rushing greater spire or going double spire muta (with 2x upgrades, if you dont watch phoenix for more than 3seconds, goodbye). Also with early hallucination (right after gw research finishes, 1x chrono on gw research), you are guaranteed a scout of the spire, even if he hides it with creep poop in a corner, if you are diligent with scouting poser phoenix. The latest I've scouted the spire with hallucination is when it's 1/4th of the way done (assuming 3base spire, of course) and that's plenty of time to warp in more than enough stalkers, position units, build cannons, and tech to storm. Also with this build, if you intend to go the hallucination scouting route rather than the observer route, I feel like you should be more sentry heavy early on, making the forcefields potentially wasted a moot point. Just my 2cents from my quick 3rd build.
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After playing a lot of games, you develop this intuition (especially against players of lesser skill) about what your opponent is doing. It's hard to explain what exactly tips you off. Frequently it's specific things you see that you unconsciously register as being a sign for some sort of build. Sometimes it's things as subtle as the way the SCV is scouting or the frequency of his zergling movements. Personally this kind of intuition has won me a handful of games, so I wouldn't doubt this guy based purely on this claim of maphacking.
That said, it might be better to see a "textbook game" rather than this intuitive reaction in a guide.
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EPT
