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On June 04 2012 16:43 lalapo wrote:
This is a very solid build that doesn't depend on the opponent making a mistake or not scouting, thank you for taking your time to write this guide. One question though, when do you recommend taking a second robo? In your replays you took your 2nd robo a little bit late, since you were under a lot of roach pressure and probably forgot. Do you think we can take the 2nd robo the same time as the twilight council? I think the timing of the 2nd robo is an important piece as it can make defending and especially countering a lot easier. (Of course under the context that the zerg is staying on 3 base going roach pressure)
i recommend adding it just if you need it after the TC has finished.
if you add too much tech you re not that safe anymore.
On June 04 2012 16:50 Vanadiel wrote:
Nice guide. However, I think you should developp how to stop roach ling attack from different angle. For example, I saw Stephano on his stream giving advices to a protoss player who tried a similar build, how to split the army. What he said (it was on Daybreak) was that the protoss should keep the majority of his army defending the third base and have a couple of sentry keeping the front and getting ready to force field the ramp.
if you take a look at my replay on cloud kingdom, you will see i don t need to split, because i can wall off 1 side, that s why it s good on cloud/antiga and bad on maps like shakuras where you can t wall off
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On June 04 2012 14:53 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Thanks very much for the post. I've been using a very similar build everywhere but Shakuras (where holding a third seems to be impossible) for the last month or so, and it's very successful for the most part. The issue that I'm currently having with it is that, as I start hitting better opponents, they're getting much better at multi-pronged attacks that make it extremely difficult to have the correct number of units positioned at each base, and so I frequently end up with either a runby into my nat/main, or a large force of Roaches sniping my third while I'm out of position. I'd be very appreciative if you'd post a bit of discussion of how you position and control your army during the 12-minute Roach aggression phase to keep from ending up dead or way behind.
watch MC vs stephano replay (red bull battlegrounds) on daybreak, it's not the same build MC uses (later 3rd) but you can see how nicely he positions his 2 groups of units, one defending the 3rd, the other defending his natural.
cannons are important too since that makes you less dependant on stalkers as long as you have sentries
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UPDATE
you actually can build an observer before immortal
i tested it on 5 games now
you are still safe
thx to alphadotcom
MUTA REPLAY
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Nice guide. Could use a few more replays, other than that decent guide.
^^Indeed, more replays good sir, but other than that, the build sounds good 
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On June 04 2012 21:53 HellRush wrote: ^^Indeed, more replays good sir, but other than that, the build sounds good
more replays will come soon
it s not easy to find some zergs on the ladder that play standart...
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I've really been struggling in PvZ lately, My go to has always been either fast 3rd (around 9 min) or 5 gate blink pressure. It's nice to see a new build like this, hopefully I can execute it well. Thanks!
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On June 05 2012 01:37 AxonHD wrote:
I've really been struggling in PvZ lately, My go to has always been either fast 3rd (around 9 min) or 5 gate blink pressure. It's nice to see a new build like this, hopefully I can execute it well. Thanks!
thank you as well
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I apreciate the build you post. Still, variations of 4 gate robo into 3rd have been discused heavily in this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894
and (i hope i'm wrong) i don't think any other thread will get such an analysis about this build.
I think the link could be useful to anyone deeply interested in the build, the problem is that the thread is kinda flooded with misleading info (easy to identify tho) and starting to read it now may be kinda long
As a personal preference i like the Titan variation, 1z/3 sentry before first warp round, more chrono on probes, and no hallucination.
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On June 05 2012 08:20 Belha wrote:I apreciate the build you post. Still, variations of 4 gate robo into 3rd have been discused heavily in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894and (i hope i'm wrong) i don't think any other thread will get such an analysis about this build. I think the link could be useful to anyone deeply interested in the build, the problem is that the thread is kinda flooded with misleading info (easy to identify tho) and starting to read it now may be kinda long As a personal preference i like the Titan variation, 1z/3 sentry before first warp round, more chrono on probes, and no hallucination.
you can skip hallucination i tested it
you can build an observer before immortal and still be safe
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I've been running this build through a variety of Zerg strategies, and I've found two answers that worked well for me. Since you'll be moving out with the first couple of units you have to secure the third, my scouting Drone will be able to tell that you're cutting workers. ( As you won't be killing him with your sentry ) Likewise will my overlord at the natural. My lings at the front will notice no production out of the Gateway.
( I believe its something near 7-8 workers cut to be able to place the nexus, pylon and two cannons relatively early, correct me if I am mistaken.)
So what I would do was to pre-emptively send out 16 slow lings to my scouting set, so I'd have around 18 lings at your third. Then I would add on a few more speedlings later on. These 16 lings correspond to the amount of probes you've cut to be able to do this build, and they're often times more than capable of delaying your third by upwards two minutes. It also left my practice partner in a somewhat grim spot, as he had to wait for warp tech, then warp in units to deal with the threat.
After that his 16 min timing push was significantly weaker, and holding it wasn't as close to impossible as when you get that early third. ( Personally, I've found no way of stopping a well organised 15-16 min push with an expansion behind it from such an early third. )
The other concern we had together was muta play into heavy expansions. Not neccesarily because the muta/corrupter themselves did a ton of damage, but because it limits the Protoss quite severely early on. Adding in just a few corrupters meant for our games that the Phoenix transition didn't deal too well with the high muta numbers.
- I do hope this ends up working out for Protoss, as ZvP is currently an awful matchup that needs changes.
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replay vs pro
ec elvis added, met him on ladder just today
vs mutas first then into infestors
i don t like elvis attidude ...
i scout no infestation pit and no spire and he builds mass spines
i have to assume mutas with hidden spire are coming and he just claims me hacker..
http://drop.sc/191742
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any comments about the mutas?
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I feel like you've been a bit lucky against Elvis, I checked the replay and you drop your two stargates before seeing he goes mutas : you haven't seen the spines neither the gaz at the third.
Btw very good guide thanks a lot, will try it as soon as possible but I have just one question, can't you make stalker instead of zealot when you take your third, they are more useful( usefuller?) later in the game . I know zealot are here for gling, but isn't stalker/sentry with good building placement enough to deal with? And speedling aggresion are very rare nowadays.
Please add more replay , especially vs mutas 
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On June 13 2012 17:36 Lazzi wrote:I feel like you've been a bit lucky against Elvis, I checked the replay and you drop your two stargates before seeing he goes mutas : you haven't seen the spines neither the gaz at the third. Btw very good guide thanks a lot, will try it as soon as possible but I have just one question, can't you make stalker instead of zealot when you take your third, they are more useful( usefuller?) later in the game . I know zealot are here for gling, but isn't stalker/sentry with good building placement enough to deal with? And speedling aggresion are very rare nowadays. Please add more replay , especially vs mutas
i saw no units, so i went double stargate, then i saw the spines and gases, so i didn t need t ocancel
well you can go stalker/sentry, but it s harder to defend, because the big issue are the speedlings that might attack when you drop down your nexus, you can deal with 5-max10 roaches with zealot sentry +1 immortal
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For anyone who has trouble with multi prong attacks, try walling the ramp to your nat instead. I think that is the key to taking a fast third, as it allows your army at the third much more mobility while still walling off an attack point. Plus, on some maps it's much easier to wall the ramp up to the natural than it is to sim city the third.
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HI guys ! I try this build with a good sucess but im a little bit confused about how to transition. I like to hit the 15min timings with blink +3 attack and 2-3 colossi before gglords come.
When should i put my TC down and robotics bay ? Right after realizing im safe or whenever i want ? thanks
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Nice! I'll try this out. Been mostly relying on immortal pushes to win me games.
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On June 04 2012 03:51 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:thank you guys what should i add and improve?
I think a few more visual aids (A title picture and screenshots) would help a lot. The structure of the post isn't bad, but you could consider using lines and bullet points or spoilers to avoid clutter.
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On June 14 2012 00:13 Serge89 wrote:
HI guys ! I try this build with a good sucess but im a little bit confused about how to transition. I like to hit the 15min timings with blink +3 attack and 2-3 colossi before gglords come.
When should i put my TC down and robotics bay ? Right after realizing im safe or whenever i want ? thanks
indeed, out your TC and robotics bay down as soon as you see him teching or you feel safe
if he stays on roach ling you just don t need tech and sth against broodlord infestor
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On June 14 2012 01:03 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 03:51 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:On June 04 2012 03:10 FoolieCoolie wrote:
Very cool, thanks for the guide. thank you guys what should i add and improve? I think a few more visual aids (A title picture and screenshots) would help a lot. The structure of the post isn't bad, but you could consider using lines and bullet points or spoilers to avoid clutter.
thank you, i will edit it as soon as i have time
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EPT
