I m a 15 year old high master protoss playing for Myrevenge from Germany. My ingame name is Zeth and I ve won a lot of games vs the professional players. Recently there has been a lot of discussion about the Stephano style and the unability of protoss to take a 3. base safely. There have been some suggestions, but I think they are all bad/ not optimal. You can find the discussion here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894 So i started experimenting. This will be the guide, how to expand safely and punish the zerg for sticking to roaches and lings (if he does).
2. General
So, let s start with when to do this build and against what. This style should only be played against a fast 3 hatchery player starting without gas. Your goal is to take a nexus between 7.30 and 7.45 and defend it. Afterwards you just go kill him if he sticks to roach/ling or you can get into a macro game if he decides to go for mutas or infestors. This style depends heavily on the map. On some it s easier, on some it s harder, on some it s almost impossible. I suggest doing this style on the following maps and i m also rating the difficulty from 1-10 (10 hardest): - Cloud Kingdom (5) - Daybreak (7) - Korhal Compound (4) - Ohana (5) - Antiga (2) - Entombed (4) - Metalopolis (6) - Shakuras (8) - Taldarim (6)
3. The Buildorder
You open up with your forge fast expansion you prefer, then you continue with the normal buildorder. That means: gate -->core-->+1weapon-->zealot-->warpgate-->sentry (skip the stalker)-->chrono your warpgate 2-3 times
now to the important ones: @ minute 6.30 you throw down 3 additional gates, you stop building probes and you immidiatly build a robotics facility @ minute 7:30 you build your nexus and immidiatly build a pylon to the position where you can wall off (e.g. can be seen on my replay in cloud kingdom vs bakuri, you will know which positions i mean) @ after the nexus is being started get the 2 additional gases and continue probe production till you re full saturated at your natural
Then depending on how much chrono you have spent on your warpgate you can either transform your gateways to warpgates now, or you have to build your units from your gateways. Now build 2-3 additional units from them (sentry,sentry,zealot). After that start +1 armor, get hallucination or an observer, which i prefer, but that s up to you and start probe production to your 3.base. You now have to add 2-4 additional gates to your pylon you have build to the position to wall off. This is again map depending, because the gates are also used to block your enemy units, they are not just used for production. For example on Daybreak you need 4 gates to wall off the entrance to your natural, while on Ohana you want 1 gate to complete the wall of to your natural and 2 more to wall off a little bit on your 3. base. Add as much additional cannons as you need to defend, depending on your and your opponents skill and as always on the map.
4. defending your 3.
The first thing you have to do is to try and deny your opponents scouting. He shall not scout your 3. base, but if he does, what good zergs do, don t worry, like I said it s a safe expansion build. So now, your opponent has seen your expansion. What can he do from now? - he can take a 4.base, get additional gases and tech to mutas or infestors - he can commit and attack with roaches and lings to kill you
You have to have constant production out of your 4 gates with sentrys and zealots. This is very important and also NEVER EVER STOP YOUR IMMORTAL PRODUCTION, i can t even say how important that is. Now you have to try to figure out what your opponent is doing, is he getting aggressive or not? First is to stay defensivly and try to survive if he s getting aggressivly. I can t say you more than have good forcefields, keep your immortals alive and make the right unit compositions. Please watch the replays and see how i do it. Next step, 1. I defended succesfully my 3. base
Now use your hallucination because you can afford to use your sentry energy and try to get information. If he s still making units, just stay defensivly and kill him after you have enough units, nothing more to say. You see him not making units, but drones? Now you have to scout your opponents tech, this is the key to fully transition to the macro game. Is he going infestors or mutas? Then just counter his build with either hts/colossus or blinkstalkers/hts and transition into a macro game.
2. I didn t have to defend and my opponent stays passive
You have to use your hallucination or your observer as fast as possible, and you have to see what tech he s doing, just read everything above it just continues after defending succesfully, it s some kinda the same . Don t worry about muta timings, the zergs spire finish at the earliest time at minute 10, normally even later, you should be able to scout that in time.
5.Replays
http://drop.sc/190738 Shakuras vs Roaches, don t mind the chat, just talking trash to make at least him go mutas http://drop.sc/190739 Cloud Kingdom vs Roaches http://drop.sc/191742 Ohana vs Mutas, game was played vs progamer ec elvis http://drop.sc/198298 Antiga vs Roach/lingdrops, game was played vs progamer liquid haypro http://drop.sc/235144 Daybreak vs Mutas into Broodlord Infestor http://drop.sc/235863 Ohana vs Infestation Pit, i go for a timing push just before his broodlords NEW VERSION my smurfs name is exsanguis
more replays will come soon, I ll update this thread tomorrow and feel free to ask me questions I m sorry for my English, if you find any mistakes feel free to correct me, I m just 15 and still going to school.
That's a very cool guide man! I applaud your attempt at writing a vocabulary intense guide in a different language from your own. I'm 24 and still do not know any others fluently. GG sir.
Title seems misleading, I thought it was 1 base 4 gate robo expo so i was like O_O Good strategy, I do almost similar build and had great success with it :D I like how you point out the difficulty of it on certain
On June 04 2012 05:30 ThePlayer33 wrote: 4 gate robo off 1 base sounds like something nshs-tassadar would do
OPENING POST You open up with your forge fast expansion you prefer, then you continue with the normal buildorder. That means: gate -->core-->+1weapon-->zealot-->warpgate-->sentry (skip the stalker)-->chrono your warpgate 2-3 times
First: obvious suggestion - change title from "expansion" into "3rd"; I too was expecting a bizarre 4 gate robo off one base
Second: I've seen WhiteRa doing this successfully numerous times - it's definitely something to consider even for high level play. (I'm addicted to his stream) Recently people are leaning more and more towards robo + quick 3rd instead of stargate. Since zergs nowadays deal so perfectly with void/phoenix I do this too.
The part where the fun begins is that this style is really underdeveloped right now and there are a million different things to figure out yet. Some things to mention: 1. When build TC for blink and +2. 2. How to defend vs mutas (in my opinion it should be doable although really tough) 3. Might a 2nd robo be useful? WhiteRa does this occasionally, 2 robos for immortals and delay more gates and blink. Of course you have to be sure that no mutas are coming 4. How many cannons you a) need and b) are prudent vs quick 4th/5th and/or fast-ish hive 5. Warpprism harass? The best reason why to do this would probably be the scouting intel - if you use the prism for one round of zealots at the zerg's third you keep him honest on his roach count.
On June 04 2012 05:48 sleepingdog wrote: First: obvious suggestion - change title from "expansion" into "3rd"; I too was expecting a bizarre 4 gate robo off one base
Second: I've seen WhiteRa doing this successfully numerous times - it's definitely something to consider even for high level play. (I'm addicted to his stream) Recently people are leaning more and more towards robo + quick 3rd instead of stargate. Since zergs nowadays deal so perfectly with void/phoenix I do this too.
The part where the fun begins is that this style is really underdeveloped right now and there are a million different things to figure out yet. Some things to mention: 1. When build TC for blink and +2. 2. How to defend vs mutas (in my opinion it should be doable although really tough) 3. Might a 2nd robo be useful? WhiteRa does this occasionally, 2 robos for immortals and delay more gates and blink. Of course you have to be sure that no mutas are coming 4. How many cannons you a) need and b) are prudent vs quick 4th/5th and/or fast-ish hive 5. Warpprism harass? The best reason why to do this would probably be the scouting intel - if you use the prism for one round of zealots at the zerg's third you keep him honest on his roach count.
The first person I've seen them do this consistently is iS.Asxlav, it's pretty much his go to build and he tries to hit a 16-17 minute timing with a max Blink Stalkers/Colo/Immortal army while getting his mothership behind it. It's pretty freaking strong as it hits just as the first Brood Lords are popping out.
He's said that it is paramount to scout for a muta transition as well as the hive timing, and in case the Zerg gets greedy and tries a pre 15 minute hive, you must punish him for it.
Thanks very much for the post. I've been using a very similar build everywhere but Shakuras (where holding a third seems to be impossible) for the last month or so, and it's very successful for the most part. The issue that I'm currently having with it is that, as I start hitting better opponents, they're getting much better at multi-pronged attacks that make it extremely difficult to have the correct number of units positioned at each base, and so I frequently end up with either a runby into my nat/main, or a large force of Roaches sniping my third while I'm out of position. I'd be very appreciative if you'd post a bit of discussion of how you position and control your army during the 12-minute Roach aggression phase to keep from ending up dead or way behind.
Recently I've begun that, as soon as I notice your going robo/immortals, I will cancel all roach related tech and upgrades (if it's early enough, not even make the roach warren or evo, but normally it's just like I've maybe started roach speed and +1 and I just cancel them and not make any roaches, and I'll go fast spire.
NrGMonk said it was a bad idea in the "Nestea's anti-immortal/sentry all-in build" thread, because sentry/immortal hits at 11:30, but the shittiest thing about immortal/sentry is you can't really tell definitively if they are all-inning, or just playing a macro build (like 5 gate robo, or in this case, 4 gate robo). The push moves out at 11:30 I believe, so I use lots of lings made (i dont drone greedily, stop pretty standard 8:30 time) to force you to really take your time across the map (think ling/bane/muta vs siege tanks), threaten counter-attacks to pull you back, to buy that extra minute I need, and besides, your only killing one of my 3 bases when my mutas pop out.
I don't know yet if it's a good reaction against immortal/sentry all-in, but I do think it's a good reaction against your build. it would slaughter you, since I'm not getting less drones, nor am I making more drones, so I have a standard economy, but just a ton of mutas early on and the only way to punish that is with some sort of timing (if anything, maybe it becomes new metagame vs robo openers).
So... if you have an NA account, maybe we can test out our 2 builds ^^ I dont think any zergs do this besides what I saw nestea do in the gsl (anxiously waiting him to play more zvp). It was quite crazy.
On June 04 2012 05:48 sleepingdog wrote: First: obvious suggestion - change title from "expansion" into "3rd"; I too was expecting a bizarre 4 gate robo off one base
Second: I've seen WhiteRa doing this successfully numerous times - it's definitely something to consider even for high level play. (I'm addicted to his stream) Recently people are leaning more and more towards robo + quick 3rd instead of stargate. Since zergs nowadays deal so perfectly with void/phoenix I do this too.
The part where the fun begins is that this style is really underdeveloped right now and there are a million different things to figure out yet. Some things to mention: 1. When build TC for blink and +2. 2. How to defend vs mutas (in my opinion it should be doable although really tough) 3. Might a 2nd robo be useful? WhiteRa does this occasionally, 2 robos for immortals and delay more gates and blink. Of course you have to be sure that no mutas are coming 4. How many cannons you a) need and b) are prudent vs quick 4th/5th and/or fast-ish hive 5. Warpprism harass? The best reason why to do this would probably be the scouting intel - if you use the prism for one round of zealots at the zerg's third you keep him honest on his roach count.
obvious suggestion is obvious sorry for the misleading title
you brought up some very good questions which i mostly already thought about and i m not sure 100% sure whether my answers are the the optimum. 1. TC timing: i build the TC as soon as i m safe, because then i can afford it to tech and i also need the TC against his follow up tech, i think building it earlier is just greedy 2. you ll have to take a look at the replays how i do it, but you will scout it in time as long as your hallucination is in time, so you can decide between stargates or blink 3. i was thinking a lot about that and i m thinking 1 robo is enough, but to make it easier you can add a 2. one after your TC has finished making it earlier is in my opinion just too greedy as well and not working, because you also need meatshield for immortals 4. i think this is heavily depending on the map e.g. on antiga i build 1, on daybreak i build up to 4, but this has to be developed more 5. i don t think you can warpprism harass with that build,it s too much of an investment, you can do it when you re safe, but that s then just a normal prism in a macro game, nothing special
On June 04 2012 15:07 Belial88 wrote: Interesting, watching rep.
Recently I've begun that, as soon as I notice your going robo/immortals, I will cancel all roach related tech and upgrades (if it's early enough, not even make the roach warren or evo, but normally it's just like I've maybe started roach speed and +1 and I just cancel them and not make any roaches, and I'll go fast spire.
I don't know yet if it's a good reaction against immortal/sentry all-in, but I do think it's a good reaction against your build. it would slaughter you, since I'm not getting less drones, nor am I making more drones, so I have a standard economy, but just a ton of mutas early on and the only way to punish that is with some sort of timing (if anything, maybe it becomes new metagame vs robo openers).
So... if you have an NA account, maybe we can test out our 2 builds ^^ I dont think any zergs do this besides what I saw nestea do in the gsl (anxiously waiting him to play more zvp). It was quite crazy.
well that s the reason why i say don t warp stalkers till you see your opponent going for a lot of roaches. it s not a problem to have zealot/sentry and 1-2 immortals while just defending lings.
we can test that out if you want, please pm me to change us ID and so on
MORE REPLAYS WILL COME TODAY thank you all for your feedback, i m motivated to update everything
please mod change the title again to [G] PvZ 4 gate robo into 3. base sorry and thanks
why do u get hallucination instead of obs or 2, i know your immortals are delayed a bit but you usually dont start them immediately when your robo is done plus obs build pretty quick now. Also hallucination becomes useless when sentries die so if they trade with you early on like in cloud kingdom you cant scout anything besides what they are attacking with. Also 1 or two obs allow you to spot his army at all times to get in much better position defensively.
Also, when do you feel you need to add a robo bay with this fast third, only if you see infestor tech?
On June 04 2012 16:07 AlphaDotCom wrote: why do u get hallucination instead of obs or 2, i know your immortals are delayed a bit but you usually dont start them immediately when your robo is done plus obs build pretty quick now. Also hallucination becomes useless when sentries die so if they trade with you early on like in cloud kingdom you cant scout anything besides what they are attacking with. Also 1 or two obs allow you to spot his army at all times to get in much better position defensively.
Also, when do you feel you need to add a robo bay with this fast third, only if you see infestor tech?
the thing with the obs... i m also not sure there yet, i have to try that more. please remember this style is still under developement
i add the robo bay as soon as i see the infestor tech, banelings or hydras, because i don t it need it against ling roach.
This is a very solid build that doesn't depend on the opponent making a mistake or not scouting, thank you for taking your time to write this guide. One question though, when do you recommend taking a second robo? In your replays you took your 2nd robo a little bit late, since you were under a lot of roach pressure and probably forgot. Do you think we can take the 2nd robo the same time as the twilight council? I think the timing of the 2nd robo is an important piece as it can make defending and especially countering a lot easier. (Of course under the context that the zerg is staying on 3 base going roach pressure)
Nice guide. However, I think you should developp how to stop roach ling attack from different angle. For example, I saw Stephano on his stream giving advices to a protoss player who tried a similar build, how to split the army. What he said (it was on Daybreak) was that the protoss should keep the majority of his army defending the third base and have a couple of sentry keeping the front and getting ready to force field the ramp.
On June 04 2012 16:43 lalapo wrote: This is a very solid build that doesn't depend on the opponent making a mistake or not scouting, thank you for taking your time to write this guide. One question though, when do you recommend taking a second robo? In your replays you took your 2nd robo a little bit late, since you were under a lot of roach pressure and probably forgot. Do you think we can take the 2nd robo the same time as the twilight council? I think the timing of the 2nd robo is an important piece as it can make defending and especially countering a lot easier. (Of course under the context that the zerg is staying on 3 base going roach pressure)
i recommend adding it just if you need it after the TC has finished. if you add too much tech you re not that safe anymore.
On June 04 2012 16:50 Vanadiel wrote: Nice guide. However, I think you should developp how to stop roach ling attack from different angle. For example, I saw Stephano on his stream giving advices to a protoss player who tried a similar build, how to split the army. What he said (it was on Daybreak) was that the protoss should keep the majority of his army defending the third base and have a couple of sentry keeping the front and getting ready to force field the ramp.
if you take a look at my replay on cloud kingdom, you will see i don t need to split, because i can wall off 1 side, that s why it s good on cloud/antiga and bad on maps like shakuras where you can t wall off
On June 04 2012 14:53 AmericanUmlaut wrote: Thanks very much for the post. I've been using a very similar build everywhere but Shakuras (where holding a third seems to be impossible) for the last month or so, and it's very successful for the most part. The issue that I'm currently having with it is that, as I start hitting better opponents, they're getting much better at multi-pronged attacks that make it extremely difficult to have the correct number of units positioned at each base, and so I frequently end up with either a runby into my nat/main, or a large force of Roaches sniping my third while I'm out of position. I'd be very appreciative if you'd post a bit of discussion of how you position and control your army during the 12-minute Roach aggression phase to keep from ending up dead or way behind.
watch MC vs stephano replay (red bull battlegrounds) on daybreak, it's not the same build MC uses (later 3rd) but you can see how nicely he positions his 2 groups of units, one defending the 3rd, the other defending his natural.
cannons are important too since that makes you less dependant on stalkers as long as you have sentries
I've really been struggling in PvZ lately, My go to has always been either fast 3rd (around 9 min) or 5 gate blink pressure. It's nice to see a new build like this, hopefully I can execute it well. Thanks!
On June 05 2012 01:37 AxonHD wrote: I've really been struggling in PvZ lately, My go to has always been either fast 3rd (around 9 min) or 5 gate blink pressure. It's nice to see a new build like this, hopefully I can execute it well. Thanks!
and (i hope i'm wrong) i don't think any other thread will get such an analysis about this build. I think the link could be useful to anyone deeply interested in the build, the problem is that the thread is kinda flooded with misleading info (easy to identify tho) and starting to read it now may be kinda long
As a personal preference i like the Titan variation, 1z/3 sentry before first warp round, more chrono on probes, and no hallucination.
On June 05 2012 08:20 Belha wrote: I apreciate the build you post. Still, variations of 4 gate robo into 3rd have been discused heavily in this thread:
and (i hope i'm wrong) i don't think any other thread will get such an analysis about this build. I think the link could be useful to anyone deeply interested in the build, the problem is that the thread is kinda flooded with misleading info (easy to identify tho) and starting to read it now may be kinda long
As a personal preference i like the Titan variation, 1z/3 sentry before first warp round, more chrono on probes, and no hallucination.
you can skip hallucination i tested it you can build an observer before immortal and still be safe
I've been running this build through a variety of Zerg strategies, and I've found two answers that worked well for me. Since you'll be moving out with the first couple of units you have to secure the third, my scouting Drone will be able to tell that you're cutting workers. ( As you won't be killing him with your sentry ) Likewise will my overlord at the natural. My lings at the front will notice no production out of the Gateway. ( I believe its something near 7-8 workers cut to be able to place the nexus, pylon and two cannons relatively early, correct me if I am mistaken.) So what I would do was to pre-emptively send out 16 slow lings to my scouting set, so I'd have around 18 lings at your third. Then I would add on a few more speedlings later on. These 16 lings correspond to the amount of probes you've cut to be able to do this build, and they're often times more than capable of delaying your third by upwards two minutes. It also left my practice partner in a somewhat grim spot, as he had to wait for warp tech, then warp in units to deal with the threat. After that his 16 min timing push was significantly weaker, and holding it wasn't as close to impossible as when you get that early third. ( Personally, I've found no way of stopping a well organised 15-16 min push with an expansion behind it from such an early third. )
The other concern we had together was muta play into heavy expansions. Not neccesarily because the muta/corrupter themselves did a ton of damage, but because it limits the Protoss quite severely early on. Adding in just a few corrupters meant for our games that the Phoenix transition didn't deal too well with the high muta numbers.
- I do hope this ends up working out for Protoss, as ZvP is currently an awful matchup that needs changes.
replay vs pro ec elvis added, met him on ladder just today vs mutas first then into infestors
i don t like elvis attidude ... i scout no infestation pit and no spire and he builds mass spines i have to assume mutas with hidden spire are coming and he just claims me hacker..
I feel like you've been a bit lucky against Elvis, I checked the replay and you drop your two stargates before seeing he goes mutas : you haven't seen the spines neither the gaz at the third.
Btw very good guide thanks a lot, will try it as soon as possible but I have just one question, can't you make stalker instead of zealot when you take your third, they are more useful( usefuller?) later in the game . I know zealot are here for gling, but isn't stalker/sentry with good building placement enough to deal with? And speedling aggresion are very rare nowadays.
On June 13 2012 17:36 Lazzi wrote: I feel like you've been a bit lucky against Elvis, I checked the replay and you drop your two stargates before seeing he goes mutas : you haven't seen the spines neither the gaz at the third.
Btw very good guide thanks a lot, will try it as soon as possible but I have just one question, can't you make stalker instead of zealot when you take your third, they are more useful( usefuller?) later in the game . I know zealot are here for gling, but isn't stalker/sentry with good building placement enough to deal with? And speedling aggresion are very rare nowadays.
Please add more replay , especially vs mutas
i saw no units, so i went double stargate, then i saw the spines and gases, so i didn t need t ocancel well you can go stalker/sentry, but it s harder to defend, because the big issue are the speedlings that might attack when you drop down your nexus, you can deal with 5-max10 roaches with zealot sentry +1 immortal
For anyone who has trouble with multi prong attacks, try walling the ramp to your nat instead. I think that is the key to taking a fast third, as it allows your army at the third much more mobility while still walling off an attack point. Plus, on some maps it's much easier to wall the ramp up to the natural than it is to sim city the third.
HI guys ! I try this build with a good sucess but im a little bit confused about how to transition. I like to hit the 15min timings with blink +3 attack and 2-3 colossi before gglords come.
When should i put my TC down and robotics bay ? Right after realizing im safe or whenever i want ? thanks
On June 04 2012 03:10 FoolieCoolie wrote: Very cool, thanks for the guide.
thank you
guys what should i add and improve?
I think a few more visual aids (A title picture and screenshots) would help a lot. The structure of the post isn't bad, but you could consider using lines and bullet points or spoilers to avoid clutter.
On June 14 2012 00:13 Serge89 wrote: HI guys ! I try this build with a good sucess but im a little bit confused about how to transition. I like to hit the 15min timings with blink +3 attack and 2-3 colossi before gglords come.
When should i put my TC down and robotics bay ? Right after realizing im safe or whenever i want ? thanks
indeed, out your TC and robotics bay down as soon as you see him teching or you feel safe if he stays on roach ling you just don t need tech and sth against broodlord infestor
On June 04 2012 03:10 FoolieCoolie wrote: Very cool, thanks for the guide.
thank you
guys what should i add and improve?
I think a few more visual aids (A title picture and screenshots) would help a lot. The structure of the post isn't bad, but you could consider using lines and bullet points or spoilers to avoid clutter.
i feel like you just threw down the stargates before scouting anything in the ohana game. How did you know he was going muta O.o? That's the problem i have with this build atm, scouting muta in time if he hides the spire
Hi Tassadar, i would like to thank you , i didnt have alot of trouble with the roach style, i thought that i dealt with it quiet well, but this strategy made me see how bad i was doing in comparison. Id like to say that this works like a dream its a little hard with continuous pressure but its just amazing. Heres a replay, this is pretty much how it goes every game its always close but with good macro/micro its pretty insane.
I appreciate you doing a guide, but a fast robo into third is a bad build which you will lose with vs a zerg who goes muta and does it correctly. DRGesque.
On June 15 2012 01:29 cvgHuShang wrote: That's the problem i have with this build atm, scouting muta in time if he hides the spire
This is also the problem I have with this build when taking a third. What is the best response? I have issues with Observer scouting because sometimes I simply don't find the Spire in time, it is too slow. And then I die.
I've thought about purchasing Hallucinate for scouting.
On June 15 2012 06:24 jackalope1234 wrote: I appreciate you doing a guide, but a fast robo into third is a bad build which you will lose with vs a zerg who goes muta and does it correctly. DRGesque.
That's only true if you heavily commit to sentry/immortal without scouting. If you make an observer right away and check them out, you can just take the third and prepare for muta like normal.
It's not so much that the build is bad, just that the players who do it usually are terrible and don't bother to scout, so they die to mutas, whereas stargate (~4-5 phoenix) into a third genius style is safe against anything so it looks stronger because it's easier to do.
On June 15 2012 01:29 cvgHuShang wrote: i feel like you just threw down the stargates before scouting anything in the ohana game. How did you know he was going muta O.o? That's the problem i have with this build atm, scouting muta in time if he hides the spire
so i sent my observer to him, then i checked his main first to see whether he has tech or anything, afterwards i saw that he was droning and not building units -->tech i counted his gas and still didn t see a tech from him so i went a gamble double stargate and continued scouting when i saw the spines and still noch tech i was 100%sure it was a hidden spire that s why i didn t cancel the stargates
On June 15 2012 02:40 SuPern00b wrote: Hi Tassadar, i would like to thank you , i didnt have alot of trouble with the roach style, i thought that i dealt with it quiet well, but this strategy made me see how bad i was doing in comparison. Id like to say that this works like a dream its a little hard with continuous pressure but its just amazing. Heres a replay, this is pretty much how it goes every game its always close but with good macro/micro its pretty insane.
Ow and btw Tassadar, can i incorporate haluc in the build to scout mutas maybe? thx =)
first of all of course you can implement haluc, you can go haluc after your warpgate finished or you can get observer first from your robo that s your choice
to your replay, i don t like your play at all you go robo first then 3 gates, with that it s much harder to defend mass lings, which are usually freekills if you go 3 gates before robo also your expo was @ min 9, i can play a safe 3. base @min 7-7.45
you both didn t play well, i don t know what level you are but i think you should practice the version i wrote the guide about and then just practice it till you get better
On June 15 2012 06:24 jackalope1234 wrote: I appreciate you doing a guide, but a fast robo into third is a bad build which you will lose with vs a zerg who goes muta and does it correctly. DRGesque.
did you even read the build or watch the replays?
On June 15 2012 08:41 loko1275 wrote: Hi, how do you deal with zergs dropping their 200 roach supply at 12 minuts ? Some zerg did and i just couldnt survive (or i lost 1 or 2 nexus).
well, reading the guide, doing this build and then just macroing will defeat any 200 roach supply @ min 12
On June 15 2012 01:29 cvgHuShang wrote: That's the problem i have with this build atm, scouting muta in time if he hides the spire
This is also the problem I have with this build when taking a third. What is the best response? I have issues with Observer scouting because sometimes I simply don't find the Spire in time, it is too slow. And then I die.
I've thought about purchasing Hallucinate for scouting.
it s a lot about gamesense and good scouting you need to understand what the zerg should be doing, could do, and is doing then you understand it it s all about seeing him droning or making units, seeing how much gases he has and knowing whether he s building defensive buildings like spines
it s not easy, but if you get better you will know that your opponent is hidding tech
On June 15 2012 06:24 jackalope1234 wrote: I appreciate you doing a guide, but a fast robo into third is a bad build which you will lose with vs a zerg who goes muta and does it correctly. DRGesque.
That's only true if you heavily commit to sentry/immortal without scouting. If you make an observer right away and check them out, you can just take the third and prepare for muta like normal.
It's not so much that the build is bad, just that the players who do it usually are terrible and don't bother to scout, so they die to mutas, whereas stargate (~4-5 phoenix) into a third genius style is safe against anything so it looks stronger because it's easier to do.
Any replays of you winning against a zerg who goes for maxed roach and ling drops? I have been doing this style of fast third for a while now, and it seems to always straight up lose to that kind of build.
On June 15 2012 23:10 Westy wrote: Any replays of you winning against a zerg who goes for maxed roach and ling drops? I have been doing this style of fast third for a while now, and it seems to always straight up lose to that kind of build.
yep
i play vs liquid haypro
why did i get that he was dropping? no tech, not a lot of units( he was hidding them) and i saw his overlords and some units moving to the right i also could have assumed that he was going for a hidden spire, but i saw that he was making roaches and double evo chamber
On June 15 2012 23:10 Westy wrote: Any replays of you winning against a zerg who goes for maxed roach and ling drops? I have been doing this style of fast third for a while now, and it seems to always straight up lose to that kind of build.
yep
i play vs liquid haypro
why did i get that he was dropping? no tech, not a lot of units( he was hidding them) and i saw his overlords and some units moving to the right i also could have assumed that he was going for a hidden spire, but i saw that he was making roaches and double evo chamber
Thanks, but what I am having trouble with is the doom drop. No upgrades, just pure 200/200 roach ling drop into the main. Its fine if I scout it, but if it happens without me intercepting it I will lose all of my main, and most of my army if I they can take position above my ramp before I can react.
On June 15 2012 23:10 Westy wrote: Any replays of you winning against a zerg who goes for maxed roach and ling drops? I have been doing this style of fast third for a while now, and it seems to always straight up lose to that kind of build.
yep
i play vs liquid haypro
why did i get that he was dropping? no tech, not a lot of units( he was hidding them) and i saw his overlords and some units moving to the right i also could have assumed that he was going for a hidden spire, but i saw that he was making roaches and double evo chamber
Thanks, but what I am having trouble with is the doom drop. No upgrades, just pure 200/200 roach ling drop into the main. Its fine if I scout it, but if it happens without me intercepting it I will lose all of my main, and most of my army if I they can take position above my ramp before I can react.
well i have to say, that you HAVE to scout it, otherwise it can really do a lot of damage if you don t scout it s a mistake, and mistakes are punished in sc2 sorry, but that s all advice i can give to you
On June 15 2012 01:29 cvgHuShang wrote: i feel like you just threw down the stargates before scouting anything in the ohana game. How did you know he was going muta O.o? That's the problem i have with this build atm, scouting muta in time if he hides the spire
so i sent my observer to him, then i checked his main first to see whether he has tech or anything, afterwards i saw that he was droning and not building units -->tech i counted his gas and still didn t see a tech from him so i went a gamble double stargate and continued scouting when i saw the spines and still noch tech i was 100%sure it was a hidden spire that s why i didn t cancel the stargates
right, but you're not going to gamble every game with 2 stargates otherwise you'll lose to 3 base max roach on most maps. In the games i watched i felt like you just gambled in all of them :/... besides, i don't even think you should be getting an observer.
I've been experimenting a lot since I last posted and it's WAY better to just skip the observer and get halucination. It's faster and it doesn't take up your immortal production time. In addition you can create like 1 collossi or 1 voidray to mess with your opponent ^^.
On June 04 2012 05:27 ChEDo wrote: Title seems misleading, I thought it was 1 base 4 gate robo expo so i was like O_O Good strategy, I do almost similar build and had great success with it :D I like how you point out the difficulty of it on certain
On June 04 2012 05:30 ThePlayer33 wrote: 4 gate robo off 1 base sounds like something nshs-tassadar would do
User was temp banned for this post.
I'm pretty sure the second guy was responding to the guy who posted directly before him (the first quote), he just didn't quote; I'm sure he did read the OP and knew it wasn't a 1 base, he was just making a joke. The chronology is right, at least . . .
im not too much a fan of builds like this. i find that defending large roach pushes are too difficult on most maps assuming the zerg is capable of splitting them and forcing you to do the same with your army.
and even if you can wall off certain areas, building toomany gateways will hurt the number of units you have. If they hit you early its really hard to maintain constant production and avoid trading units.
On June 15 2012 01:29 cvgHuShang wrote: i feel like you just threw down the stargates before scouting anything in the ohana game. How did you know he was going muta O.o? That's the problem i have with this build atm, scouting muta in time if he hides the spire
so i sent my observer to him, then i checked his main first to see whether he has tech or anything, afterwards i saw that he was droning and not building units -->tech i counted his gas and still didn t see a tech from him so i went a gamble double stargate and continued scouting when i saw the spines and still noch tech i was 100%sure it was a hidden spire that s why i didn t cancel the stargates
right, but you're not going to gamble every game with 2 stargates otherwise you'll lose to 3 base max roach on most maps. In the games i watched i felt like you just gambled in all of them :/... besides, i don't even think you should be getting an observer.
I've been experimenting a lot since I last posted and it's WAY better to just skip the observer and get halucination. It's faster and it doesn't take up your immortal production time. In addition you can create like 1 collossi or 1 voidray to mess with your opponent ^^.
you didn t read what i wrote i saw him droning and having 6 gases, he just can t go mass roaches (would be roaches + 4 gases)
On June 16 2012 20:45 sru wrote: What if he go hydra push? Like Tefel
than you can scout it and react as usual this guide is just about securing the expansion, there is no hydra timing that can kill you at minute 7.30 everything later is a standart macro game
and btw tefel opens with gas and 2 base with an 7 minute 3. base this guide is against gasless 3 base openings
On June 15 2012 01:29 cvgHuShang wrote: i feel like you just threw down the stargates before scouting anything in the ohana game. How did you know he was going muta O.o? That's the problem i have with this build atm, scouting muta in time if he hides the spire
so i sent my observer to him, then i checked his main first to see whether he has tech or anything, afterwards i saw that he was droning and not building units -->tech i counted his gas and still didn t see a tech from him so i went a gamble double stargate and continued scouting when i saw the spines and still noch tech i was 100%sure it was a hidden spire that s why i didn t cancel the stargates
right, but you're not going to gamble every game with 2 stargates otherwise you'll lose to 3 base max roach on most maps. In the games i watched i felt like you just gambled in all of them :/... besides, i don't even think you should be getting an observer.
I've been experimenting a lot since I last posted and it's WAY better to just skip the observer and get halucination. It's faster and it doesn't take up your immortal production time. In addition you can create like 1 collossi or 1 voidray to mess with your opponent ^^.
you didn t read what i wrote i saw him droning and having 6 gases, he just can t go mass roaches (would be roaches + 4 gases)
I read what you wrote perfectly, it isn't however, an acturate statement of what happened in your game. I watched the replay specifically for your reaction to his muta's and there was no reaction. You blindly placed down two stargates. In fact, you're observer hadn't even seen that he had gotten lair before you started placing down stargates(according to your vision). What I'm saying is, if he had gone for stephano roach on 3 base, I don't see how you could have survived after wasting 300/300 on infastructure that you weren't going to use.
Perhaps this is just a variation of how to open with this build and you create voidrays to deal with the roach pressure? I don't know, but I didn't see this type of transition in the other games so i can only assume that it was a coin flip. Don't tell me you saw his 6 gases and then realized it was spire.
I haven't seen your guides before, but i'm not one to just assume you're correct. If you're not even scouting and reacting to what your opponents do and instead flipping a coin I don't see how we can take this guide seriously. Although, i'm sure you have a really good answer for what you did. You just haven't told us yet, right ?
"that s why i didn t cancel the stargates" I don't think you read what he wrote perfectly. He's saying that he was suspicious (people can get suspicious feelings w/o scouting perfectly, that's how stephano plays--instinctual style), so he threw down 2x stargates and then when he knew for certain hidden spire, he didn't CANCEL them. If he saw something else he would have cancelled them and then it would have been 74/74 wasted, not 300/300.
On June 17 2012 05:20 CodECleaR wrote: "that s why i didn t cancel the stargates" I don't think you read what he wrote perfectly. He's saying that he was suspicious (people can get suspicious feelings w/o scouting perfectly, that's how stephano plays--instinctual style), so he threw down 2x stargates and then when he knew for certain hidden spire, he didn't CANCEL them. If he saw something else he would have cancelled them and then it would have been 74/74 wasted, not 300/300.
right, so he had intuition, so lets say he's making a 60% gamble instead of a 50% gamble. Either way he's not telling us what gave him this intuition, if he did which is what i would like to know about then it would make sense. As it is, throwing up 300/300 not 74/74... is resources not getting put into most importantly, sentries and immortals but also stalkers is a huge investment and there is no way that I see him holding a strong stephano roach type attack.
Besides, this is a guide, telling us 'o, you should react on intuition if he's going muta or roach' isn't helping anyone. I can tell bronze players that they're bad as much as I want but until I show them what they are doing wrong and how to improve it isn't really going to help now is it? On top of this, there are infestor roach builds that will take 6 gasses, so I don't see how him scouting 6 gas tells him for sure that it is spire anyways not that he scouted that in the first place.
edit: on your stephano point, you'll notice idra stating how bad of a teacher stephano is. 'the only way you can learn from stephano is by watching him'. I don't see how this point validates anything in his guide.
On June 17 2012 05:20 CodECleaR wrote: "that s why i didn t cancel the stargates" I don't think you read what he wrote perfectly. He's saying that he was suspicious (people can get suspicious feelings w/o scouting perfectly, that's how stephano plays--instinctual style), so he threw down 2x stargates and then when he knew for certain hidden spire, he didn't CANCEL them. If he saw something else he would have cancelled them and then it would have been 74/74 wasted, not 300/300.
first of all this is correct, i m playing instinctual
the next thing i watched the replay again and you wanted to know why i was suspicious if you take a look at my vision just when i was starting to build the stargates, i saw him building spines
and ohana is a mutalisk map, so i thought i ll just start the stargates just in case as above said, with that i can win games vs muta players, and if they don t go muta i can still cancel the stargates, for example if i see a infestation pit upgrading or as said 1000 times i see him building roach/ling but keep in mind, do players build spines if they go roach ling? no if they go infestor? no, just when they are teching to broodlords what s left? mutas
Cool, will try the build today. My PvZ is pretty good once I get to the multitasking stage so I'm always thankful for safe openings allowing me to get there ^_^
Gonna try to chrono out a warp prism sometime in between the immortals, I like to have one on the field in PvZ from the midgame on to keep the zerg a little bit worried, pressure expansions and maybe force some static defense. Shouldn't hurt me too much if I do the hallucination scouting right.
What would be the best following if you want to reach the 15min timings with colossi mass stalkers before broodlords ? Can you develop specific timings ? thanks !
I'd like to know what you do if your opponent rallies 12-24 slow lings to your third. As a Zerg player I see you cutting probes early, and I will happily make a round of slowlings. At the time you actually want to take your expansion you have so little units that slow lings will easily delay, and since it cost you economy we'll end up in a position where your doompush is delayed heavily. Often I can even get away with rallying a minor round of roaches there, making Zealot/Sentry pretty bad at breaking my contain, forcing immortals at which point I'll walk home.
What is your response to having slowlings at your third?
On June 17 2012 21:32 Xana wrote: I'd like to know what you do if your opponent rallies 12-24 slow lings to your third. As a Zerg player I see you cutting probes early, and I will happily make a round of slowlings. At the time you actually want to take your expansion you have so little units that slow lings will easily delay, and since it cost you economy we'll end up in a position where your doompush is delayed heavily. Often I can even get away with rallying a minor round of roaches there, making Zealot/Sentry pretty bad at breaking my contain, forcing immortals at which point I'll walk home.
What is your response to having slowlings at your third?
when your slow lings arrive my nexus is usually half done and i have 1 zealot+2 sentrys with my 4 gates almost up so i let my nexus tank and kill all lings when warpgate is done slowlings are so easy to kill i have +1 weapon then too
Nice guide... But i think u are a hacker i see 2 reeplays and u did the counter for build with no obs. Game vs Elvis: u scout with obs but he have the spire hiden, and u do 2 stargate... maybe luck? Game vs Haypro: when the 2 drops come ur base, u didnt scout, but u move all ur army to drop zone... maybe luck?
On June 17 2012 21:59 Mamoru wrote: Nice guide... But i think u are a hacker i see 2 reeplays and u did the counter for build with no obs. Game vs Elvis: u scout with obs but he have the spire hiden, and u do 2 stargate... maybe luck? Game vs Haypro: when the 2 drops come ur base, u didnt scout, but u move all ur army to drop zone... maybe luck?
... i dont gonna see other replays ..
srsly please read this whole thread about my scouting and gamesense and stop claiming everyone a hacker, you don t understand anything
I saw someone mention the Nestea build which I think includes a 5 minute gas for speed at around 7 minutes and I believe this is the main counter to this build, as your speed should be done just in time to deny the 3rd.
Anyway, that's what I've been doing for awhile now because a friend of mine showed me a very similar build with a super early 3rd. I think that's why Dimaga gets his early speed as well.
So yeah, what do you do if the zerg gets a 5 minute gas? Can you even scout that? Usually protoss I play don't go back to my base at that point because the zerg is establishing the 3rd. Also, I think a queen plus 1 or 2 lings could kill any probe trying to get in the main.
On June 17 2012 22:31 Mauzel wrote: I saw someone mention the Nestea build which I think includes a 5 minute gas for speed at around 7 minutes and I believe this is the main counter to this build, as your speed should be done just in time to deny the 3rd.
Anyway, that's what I've been doing for awhile now because a friend of mine showed me a very similar build with a super early 3rd. I think that's why Dimaga gets his early speed as well.
So yeah, what do you do if the zerg gets a 5 minute gas? Can you even scout that? Usually protoss I play don't go back to my base at that point because the zerg is establishing the 3rd. Also, I think a queen plus 1 or 2 lings could kill any probe trying to get in the main.
i ll make it short and i ll say you can t scout the gas and you might not be able to hold your 3. but if a zerg get s gas + lings he s investing so you can cancel your 3. and just sit back and expand with 7 gate robo again
On June 17 2012 22:31 Mauzel wrote: I saw someone mention the Nestea build which I think includes a 5 minute gas for speed at around 7 minutes and I believe this is the main counter to this build, as your speed should be done just in time to deny the 3rd.
Anyway, that's what I've been doing for awhile now because a friend of mine showed me a very similar build with a super early 3rd. I think that's why Dimaga gets his early speed as well.
So yeah, what do you do if the zerg gets a 5 minute gas? Can you even scout that? Usually protoss I play don't go back to my base at that point because the zerg is establishing the 3rd. Also, I think a queen plus 1 or 2 lings could kill any probe trying to get in the main.
i ll make it short and i ll say you can t scout the gas and you might not be able to hold your 3. but if a zerg get s gas + lings he s investing so you can cancel your 3. and just sit back and expand with 7 gate robo again
not really, you're pretty far behind with 7 gate robo if he already has mutas out (he can go up to 4-5 base) and you're still on 2 base with robo tech. (you can't do a timing attack because it'll be too late and zerg will happily base race)
On June 17 2012 22:31 Mauzel wrote: I saw someone mention the Nestea build which I think includes a 5 minute gas for speed at around 7 minutes and I believe this is the main counter to this build, as your speed should be done just in time to deny the 3rd.
Anyway, that's what I've been doing for awhile now because a friend of mine showed me a very similar build with a super early 3rd. I think that's why Dimaga gets his early speed as well.
So yeah, what do you do if the zerg gets a 5 minute gas? Can you even scout that? Usually protoss I play don't go back to my base at that point because the zerg is establishing the 3rd. Also, I think a queen plus 1 or 2 lings could kill any probe trying to get in the main.
i ll make it short and i ll say you can t scout the gas and you might not be able to hold your 3. but if a zerg get s gas + lings he s investing so you can cancel your 3. and just sit back and expand with 7 gate robo again
not really, you're pretty far behind with 7 gate robo if he already has mutas out (he can go up to 4-5 base) and you're still on 2 base with robo tech.
Nice guide. I started using something very very similar a few days ago though I get 1 obs instead of hallucination. I think I may get hallucination the next few games I play with it. From what I have seen you can hold with 1 robo and you can just thrown another down with the robo bay depending on their tech switch that you scout.
On June 17 2012 23:01 YolBolsun wrote: Nice guide. I started using something very very similar a few days ago though I get 1 obs instead of hallucination. I think I may get hallucination the next few games I play with it. From what I have seen you can hold with 1 robo and you can just thrown another down with the robo bay depending on their tech switch that you scout.
On June 17 2012 05:20 CodECleaR wrote: "that s why i didn t cancel the stargates" I don't think you read what he wrote perfectly. He's saying that he was suspicious (people can get suspicious feelings w/o scouting perfectly, that's how stephano plays--instinctual style), so he threw down 2x stargates and then when he knew for certain hidden spire, he didn't CANCEL them. If he saw something else he would have cancelled them and then it would have been 74/74 wasted, not 300/300.
right, so he had intuition, so lets say he's making a 60% gamble instead of a 50% gamble. Either way he's not telling us what gave him this intuition, if he did which is what i would like to know about then it would make sense. As it is, throwing up 300/300 not 74/74... is resources not getting put into most importantly, sentries and immortals but also stalkers is a huge investment and there is no way that I see him holding a strong stephano roach type attack.
Besides, this is a guide, telling us 'o, you should react on intuition if he's going muta or roach' isn't helping anyone. I can tell bronze players that they're bad as much as I want but until I show them what they are doing wrong and how to improve it isn't really going to help now is it? On top of this, there are infestor roach builds that will take 6 gasses, so I don't see how him scouting 6 gas tells him for sure that it is spire anyways not that he scouted that in the first place.
edit: on your stephano point, you'll notice idra stating how bad of a teacher stephano is. 'the only way you can learn from stephano is by watching him'. I don't see how this point validates anything in his guide.
The 300/300 investment is temporary, you cancel, get back money, and spend it because you are going immortal+tech+4gate (usually stalker/sentry). On the stephano point, IdrA isn't the only one who has given interviews and been asked questions about stephano. Stephano himself has said in interviews he doesn't know why a player is doing something, he just knows it. I'd like to make it clear i'm not defending this guide or saying the build is amazing, but rather acting as an interpreter for what the writer is saying based off of my understanding of this style of play. Also if you scout 6gas then roach attack will be delayed until zerg builds a few infestors to come with it. Read his next post to see why he thought mutas. Because 2x stargate is an instinctual reaction, I really don't approve of it and I prefer going templar tech once i scout spire because it's not a terrible investment if he ends up rushing greater spire or going double spire muta (with 2x upgrades, if you dont watch phoenix for more than 3seconds, goodbye). Also with early hallucination (right after gw research finishes, 1x chrono on gw research), you are guaranteed a scout of the spire, even if he hides it with creep poop in a corner, if you are diligent with scouting poser phoenix. The latest I've scouted the spire with hallucination is when it's 1/4th of the way done (assuming 3base spire, of course) and that's plenty of time to warp in more than enough stalkers, position units, build cannons, and tech to storm. Also with this build, if you intend to go the hallucination scouting route rather than the observer route, I feel like you should be more sentry heavy early on, making the forcefields potentially wasted a moot point. Just my 2cents from my quick 3rd build.
After playing a lot of games, you develop this intuition (especially against players of lesser skill) about what your opponent is doing. It's hard to explain what exactly tips you off. Frequently it's specific things you see that you unconsciously register as being a sign for some sort of build. Sometimes it's things as subtle as the way the SCV is scouting or the frequency of his zergling movements. Personally this kind of intuition has won me a handful of games, so I wouldn't doubt this guy based purely on this claim of maphacking.
That said, it might be better to see a "textbook game" rather than this intuitive reaction in a guide.
The difference is only 20-25 seconds which means youll get your 2 extra gas 20-25 seconds earlier which means before your nexus you can afford the gas to get more sentries as youll have 100 gas anyways leftover after the nexus. İ prefer it this way. İm former gm now 600 point masters.
On June 18 2012 01:18 Alex-Berker wrote: The difference is only 20-25 seconds which means youll get your 2 extra gas 20-25 seconds earlier which means before your nexus you can afford the gas to get more sentries as youll have 100 gas anyways leftover after the nexus. İ prefer it this way. İm former gm now 600 point masters.
well i m higher than you i don t like what you say, because you don t have the production for the gas what i want to say is, when you re expanding your 4 gates are not up, so why should you invest into gas when you don t tech or build sentrys right away? you also want more minerals to build a wall+x cannons
On June 18 2012 01:18 Alex-Berker wrote: The difference is only 20-25 seconds which means youll get your 2 extra gas 20-25 seconds earlier which means before your nexus you can afford the gas to get more sentries as youll have 100 gas anyways leftover after the nexus. İ prefer it this way. İm former gm now 600 point masters.
well i m higher than you i don t like what you say, because you don t have the production for the gas what i want to say is, when you re expanding your 4 gates are not up, so why should you invest into gas when you don t tech or build sentrys right away? you also want more minerals to build a wall+x cannons
Well, I don't think it's that bad actually, but if you're going to go for the faster nexus route then you should just go and get your third right after your warp gate and stalker and added +5 gates at the nexus. Then you can get your next 2 gasses and tech of choice . With this style though you won't have an observer to watch for where the roaches are. You'll have to rely on a halucination. You'll also have less immortals but more stalkers. I'm not really sure which ones better, there might be some good blink timeings with this one but the 4 gate immortal one is definitely safer.
On June 18 2012 01:18 Alex-Berker wrote: The difference is only 20-25 seconds which means youll get your 2 extra gas 20-25 seconds earlier which means before your nexus you can afford the gas to get more sentries as youll have 100 gas anyways leftover after the nexus. İ prefer it this way. İm former gm now 600 point masters.
well i m higher than you i don t like what you say, because you don t have the production for the gas what i want to say is, when you re expanding your 4 gates are not up, so why should you invest into gas when you don t tech or build sentrys right away? you also want more minerals to build a wall+x cannons
Well, I don't think it's that bad actually, but if you're going to go for the faster nexus route then you should just go and get your third right after your warp gate and stalker and added +5 gates at the nexus. Then you can get your next 2 gasses and tech of choice . With this style though you won't have an observer to watch for where the roaches are. You'll have to rely on a halucination. You'll also have less immortals but more stalkers. I'm not really sure which ones better, there might be some good blink timeings with this one but the 4 gate immortal one is definitely safer.
i already said in this thread, that you can go observer first in your robo and skip hallu that s the choice of the player but it would be nice if you could upload some replays of your version, just to compare and so on
On June 18 2012 01:18 Alex-Berker wrote: The difference is only 20-25 seconds which means youll get your 2 extra gas 20-25 seconds earlier which means before your nexus you can afford the gas to get more sentries as youll have 100 gas anyways leftover after the nexus. İ prefer it this way. İm former gm now 600 point masters.
well i m higher than you i don t like what you say, because you don t have the production for the gas what i want to say is, when you re expanding your 4 gates are not up, so why should you invest into gas when you don t tech or build sentrys right away? you also want more minerals to build a wall+x cannons
Well, I don't think it's that bad actually, but if you're going to go for the faster nexus route then you should just go and get your third right after your warp gate and stalker and added +5 gates at the nexus. Then you can get your next 2 gasses and tech of choice . With this style though you won't have an observer to watch for where the roaches are. You'll have to rely on a halucination. You'll also have less immortals but more stalkers. I'm not really sure which ones better, there might be some good blink timeings with this one but the 4 gate immortal one is definitely safer.
i already said in this thread, that you can go observer first in your robo and skip hallu that s the choice of the player
If he hides spire somewhere like corner of map I don't think it's possible to scout it in time and then the only reaction you can have is instinctual and i'm not sure that that's what any part of a guide should be based around. Halluc phoenix is fast and you can get 2-3 and scout everywhere, ensuring a tech choice or lack thereof.
Ah, replied before edit--after some DH matches are over and i log on, i'll upload some of my more recent games with robo + quick 3rd.
İll try out your way. Btw by points i mean ladder points this season. İm rank 1 masters with a 450point lead so i dont know whats more impressive. İ would favor saving robo for after the expansion. Anyways though maybe we can play sometime too ill definately check it out. Check my blog if you want to know more about me and from that experience i can say that definatey get nexus up before robo tech
On June 18 2012 01:18 Alex-Berker wrote: The difference is only 20-25 seconds which means youll get your 2 extra gas 20-25 seconds earlier which means before your nexus you can afford the gas to get more sentries as youll have 100 gas anyways leftover after the nexus. İ prefer it this way. İm former gm now 600 point masters.
well i m higher than you i don t like what you say, because you don t have the production for the gas what i want to say is, when you re expanding your 4 gates are not up, so why should you invest into gas when you don t tech or build sentrys right away? you also want more minerals to build a wall+x cannons
Well, I don't think it's that bad actually, but if you're going to go for the faster nexus route then you should just go and get your third right after your warp gate and stalker and added +5 gates at the nexus. Then you can get your next 2 gasses and tech of choice . With this style though you won't have an observer to watch for where the roaches are. You'll have to rely on a halucination. You'll also have less immortals but more stalkers. I'm not really sure which ones better, there might be some good blink timeings with this one but the 4 gate immortal one is definitely safer.
i already said in this thread, that you can go observer first in your robo and skip hallu that s the choice of the player but it would be nice if you could upload some replays of your version, just to compare and so on
I'm not referring to a robo 3 gate build though at all.I'm talking about fast 3 nexus with only 2 gas. You get it like 1:30 earlier
On June 18 2012 01:18 Alex-Berker wrote: The difference is only 20-25 seconds which means youll get your 2 extra gas 20-25 seconds earlier which means before your nexus you can afford the gas to get more sentries as youll have 100 gas anyways leftover after the nexus. İ prefer it this way. İm former gm now 600 point masters.
well i m higher than you i don t like what you say, because you don t have the production for the gas what i want to say is, when you re expanding your 4 gates are not up, so why should you invest into gas when you don t tech or build sentrys right away? you also want more minerals to build a wall+x cannons
Well, I don't think it's that bad actually, but if you're going to go for the faster nexus route then you should just go and get your third right after your warp gate and stalker and added +5 gates at the nexus. Then you can get your next 2 gasses and tech of choice . With this style though you won't have an observer to watch for where the roaches are. You'll have to rely on a halucination. You'll also have less immortals but more stalkers. I'm not really sure which ones better, there might be some good blink timeings with this one but the 4 gate immortal one is definitely safer.
i already said in this thread, that you can go observer first in your robo and skip hallu that s the choice of the player but it would be nice if you could upload some replays of your version, just to compare and so on
I'm not referring to a robo 3 gate build though at all.I'm talking about fast 3 nexus with only 2 gas. You get it like 1:30 earlier
yes and i don t know which build you re talking about, so please send me a replay i expand with 2 gases as well btw, if you read properly
On June 18 2012 01:18 Alex-Berker wrote: The difference is only 20-25 seconds which means youll get your 2 extra gas 20-25 seconds earlier which means before your nexus you can afford the gas to get more sentries as youll have 100 gas anyways leftover after the nexus. İ prefer it this way. İm former gm now 600 point masters.
well i m higher than you i don t like what you say, because you don t have the production for the gas what i want to say is, when you re expanding your 4 gates are not up, so why should you invest into gas when you don t tech or build sentrys right away? you also want more minerals to build a wall+x cannons
Well, I don't think it's that bad actually, but if you're going to go for the faster nexus route then you should just go and get your third right after your warp gate and stalker and added +5 gates at the nexus. Then you can get your next 2 gasses and tech of choice . With this style though you won't have an observer to watch for where the roaches are. You'll have to rely on a halucination. You'll also have less immortals but more stalkers. I'm not really sure which ones better, there might be some good blink timeings with this one but the 4 gate immortal one is definitely safer.
i already said in this thread, that you can go observer first in your robo and skip hallu that s the choice of the player but it would be nice if you could upload some replays of your version, just to compare and so on
I'm not referring to a robo 3 gate build though at all.I'm talking about fast 3 nexus with only 2 gas. You get it like 1:30 earlier
yes and i don t know which build you re talking about, so please send me a replay i expand with 2 gases as well btw, if you read properly
go look it up yourself if you're going to be rude like that.
On June 18 2012 01:18 Alex-Berker wrote: The difference is only 20-25 seconds which means youll get your 2 extra gas 20-25 seconds earlier which means before your nexus you can afford the gas to get more sentries as youll have 100 gas anyways leftover after the nexus. İ prefer it this way. İm former gm now 600 point masters.
well i m higher than you i don t like what you say, because you don t have the production for the gas what i want to say is, when you re expanding your 4 gates are not up, so why should you invest into gas when you don t tech or build sentrys right away? you also want more minerals to build a wall+x cannons
Well, I don't think it's that bad actually, but if you're going to go for the faster nexus route then you should just go and get your third right after your warp gate and stalker and added +5 gates at the nexus. Then you can get your next 2 gasses and tech of choice . With this style though you won't have an observer to watch for where the roaches are. You'll have to rely on a halucination. You'll also have less immortals but more stalkers. I'm not really sure which ones better, there might be some good blink timeings with this one but the 4 gate immortal one is definitely safer.
i already said in this thread, that you can go observer first in your robo and skip hallu that s the choice of the player but it would be nice if you could upload some replays of your version, just to compare and so on
I'm not referring to a robo 3 gate build though at all.I'm talking about fast 3 nexus with only 2 gas. You get it like 1:30 earlier
yes and i don t know which build you re talking about, so please send me a replay i expand with 2 gases as well btw, if you read properly
go look it up yourself if you're going to be rude like that.
wasn t meant to be rude, english is not my first language i don t even know which build your exactly talking about
On June 17 2012 21:59 Mamoru wrote: Nice guide... But i think u are a hacker i see 2 reeplays and u did the counter for build with no obs. Game vs Elvis: u scout with obs but he have the spire hiden, and u do 2 stargate... maybe luck? Game vs Haypro: when the 2 drops come ur base, u didnt scout, but u move all ur army to drop zone... maybe luck?
... i dont gonna see other replays ..
Wow, look dude. You don't have to see a spire to suspect mutas, if its getting towards mid-late game with lings only and hes mining alot of gas+spines. 90% chance of mutas, you never have to see the spire. Don't be an ass and accuse someone of hacking because you don't understand scouting.
On June 18 2012 10:46 Xahhk wrote: You saw like 2 spines in front of his base with your observer before putting down double stargate. The zerg player coiincidentally made 20 mutas (hid a proxy spire which you didn't scout). Why did you do that?
This is against that Elvis guy.
Also the zerg player had like 1 zergling out when you double stargated-are you just playing off the popular meta game on EU or something?
i don t like to answer the same question 1000 times, please read on the other pages, there are not 5000 pages, just 4 others
This build is really not safe on daybreak for example because you only have one observer and it is in zergs base to see if he goes fast hive / mutas etc so split attacks, run-by etc are so hard to stop, i think you need at least 2 observers. Parting did a much safer 3rd nexus at 8:30 in the GSL vs Symbol on Cloud Kingdom today. If this build became popular it would be way too easy to crush but now zergs dont abuse it cause they usually dont know what to do.
On June 20 2012 05:03 RealRook wrote: This build is really not safe on daybreak for example because you only have one observer and it is in zergs base to see if he goes fast hive / mutas etc so split attacks, run-by etc are so hard to stop, i think you need at least 2 observers. Parting did a much safer 3rd nexus at 8:30 in the GSL vs Symbol on Cloud Kingdom today. If this build became popular it would be way too easy to crush but now zergs dont abuse it cause they usually dont know what to do.
it is for sure safe on daybreak you can t think you play this build 1 time and then it works you have to practice that partings 3. is 1 minute later, you can t keep up with a zerg in eco if the zerg decides to fully drone with a 8.30 nexus
In my opinion this build is great if zerg decides to play roach heavy. Then you can split and defend relatively easy. But if zerg realizes what you are doing he can just expand and go for heavy muta play. For me the only reliable way to beat mutas is if you open stargate. Mass mutas are really hard to deal with even with high templar.
On June 21 2012 19:33 Brainiak wrote: In my opinion this build is great if zerg decides to play roach heavy. Then you can split and defend relatively easy. But if zerg realizes what you are doing he can just expand and go for heavy muta play. For me the only reliable way to beat mutas is if you open stargate. Mass mutas are really hard to deal with even with high templar.
Yep, I've just stolen a build from oz that he used on the gsl the other day. He gets twilight council after 3 gates and then adds the robo. This build way better against muta and you get +2 attack instead of armour so it's just a better build overall imo. I've been using it and prefer it WAY more. If you're interested it's oz vs violet in the gsl 1st game.
On June 21 2012 19:33 Brainiak wrote: In my opinion this build is great if zerg decides to play roach heavy. Then you can split and defend relatively easy. But if zerg realizes what you are doing he can just expand and go for heavy muta play. For me the only reliable way to beat mutas is if you open stargate. Mass mutas are really hard to deal with even with high templar.
Yep, I've just stolen a build from oz that he used on the gsl the other day. He gets twilight council after 3 gates and then adds the robo. This build way better against muta and you get +2 attack instead of armour so it's just a better build overall imo. I've been using it and prefer it WAY more. If you're interested it's oz vs violet in the gsl 1st game.
CreatorPrime does this build all the time on his stream and he was the first one to use it in a broadcasted game, vs Moon in the GSTL.
On June 21 2012 19:33 Brainiak wrote: In my opinion this build is great if zerg decides to play roach heavy. Then you can split and defend relatively easy. But if zerg realizes what you are doing he can just expand and go for heavy muta play. For me the only reliable way to beat mutas is if you open stargate. Mass mutas are really hard to deal with even with high templar.
Yep, I've just stolen a build from oz that he used on the gsl the other day. He gets twilight council after 3 gates and then adds the robo. This build way better against muta and you get +2 attack instead of armour so it's just a better build overall imo. I've been using it and prefer it WAY more. If you're interested it's oz vs violet in the gsl 1st game.
i am interested where can i find a vod or sth like that? i don t have a gsl pass
I'm not sure what exactly about the OP made me understand this matchup a lot better and this is hardly the place to discuss the matter. However, what I am sure about is that for the first time in months I'm confident when facing a zerg which does this type of build. Thank you for not only a build, but a good explanation of the matchup.
Current stats: 3-0 against zerg, mid-high plat.
Advice for all middle-ladder-dwellers out there: try it. Some build are only applicable at a higher level, this is quite ok at least from plat up .
On June 23 2012 06:04 moQbara wrote: I'm not sure what exactly about the OP made me understand this matchup a lot better and this is hardly the place to discuss the matter. However, what I am sure about is that for the first time in months I'm confident when facing a zerg which does this type of build. Thank you for not only a build, but a good explanation of the matchup.
Current stats: 3-0 against zerg, mid-high plat.
Advice for all middle-ladder-dwellers out there: try it. Some build are only applicable at a higher level, this is quite ok at least from plat up .
ive seen puck do a build sort of like this. He goes for a quick 2 gates and then expos off o that then he throws down a bunch more gates twilight robo and another forge, and a templar archives. Its a lot of tech but he uses robo for wp and only warps in zealots to snipe hatch/tech while all gas goes toward ups templar etc. Do you think that this style is a reliable way to play?
I've been doing this build too and this is a very strong build but u guys have to note something 1/ Around 14-15 mins is a good time to attack with this build 2/ DO NOT GET EAGER AND MOVE OUT WITH UR ARMY BEFORE Then, good Zerg will surround and murder u 3/ At the 14mins mark push with atleast 1 collo, or AOE units 4/ while pushing add 4 moregates it will help u over run zerg base 5/ U have to run ur 1st zealot to his 3rd to see if he is all in or not, some zerg will do 2 bases all in and can kill u ( at around 6-7 mins if see no 3rd it proberly a 2 bases play or all in) If any of those things are wrong just say ^.^
I love this build! really helped me get back on terms with zerg. with regards to the muta, as he mentions in OP you should scout it comfortably with the hallu phoenix giving enough time to prepare. The phoenix scouting is critical for me anyways. Thanks for a great build!
On July 05 2012 12:03 KinoKnighT wrote: I've been doing this build too and this is a very strong build but u guys have to note something 1/ Around 14-15 mins is a good time to attack with this build 2/ DO NOT GET EAGER AND MOVE OUT WITH UR ARMY BEFORE Then, good Zerg will surround and murder u 3/ At the 14mins mark push with atleast 1 collo, or AOE units 4/ while pushing add 4 moregates it will help u over run zerg base 5/ U have to run ur 1st zealot to his 3rd to see if he is all in or not, some zerg will do 2 bases all in and can kill u ( at around 6-7 mins if see no 3rd it proberly a 2 bases play or all in) If any of those things are wrong just say ^.^
well number 5 is wrong, because this build is designed against a 3 base gasless zerg, so you just use this build against 3 hatch builds also you shout scout with a probe and not with the zealot, the 3. hatch timing is extremly important the other points are correct and i m kinda using the same timings, but it s as always depending on my opponent
On July 05 2012 21:22 KinoKnighT wrote: well u can still do this build if zerg 2 base fast gas though just do the intuitive thing and with good zerg ur probe cannot scout between 6-7 mins
you have to scout at the 4 minute mark, any scout later is pointless and this build sucks vs 2 base gas builds, because they go for a tech build, either fast infestors or fast mutas those techs are too early for the toss to deal with, those mutas for example arrive 2 minutes earlier, you won t be able to defend them like usual
On July 09 2012 00:05 myRZeth wrote: i know the replays can t be downloaded anymore drop.sc is down i sadly deleted those replays from my pc that means i ll have to collect again
That is a shame it is down because I really wanted to see how you respond to Mutalisks. I always seem to take considerable damage from them when trying to take a third without a Stargate with a style extremely similar to this. I actually gave it up because of Mutalisks.
I assume your response to Spire tech is you scout with Hallucination then build defensive cannons and rush to Blink and then Storm? If I scout a bunch of gasses early and a lots of Lings I am able to deal with the Spire, but my problem always seems to be I see a bunch of Roaches and build Immortals/Sentries, then they switch to Mutalisks and unless I happen to scout the Spire transition (which is difficult because it seems like every Zerg builds Spore Crawlers near their mineral lines, and the Spire is often located there) I am caught without defensive cannons or Blink and take a massive amount of damage. Maybe I should just start building cannons proactively.
On July 09 2012 00:05 myRZeth wrote: i know the replays can t be downloaded anymore drop.sc is down i sadly deleted those replays from my pc that means i ll have to collect again
That is a shame it is down because I really wanted to see how you respond to Mutalisks. I always seem to take considerable damage from them when trying to take a third without a Stargate with a style extremely similar to this. I actually gave it up because of Mutalisks.
I assume your response to Spire tech is you scout with Hallucination then build defensive cannons and rush to Blink and then Storm? If I scout a bunch of gasses early and a lots of Lings I am able to deal with the Spire, but my problem always seems to be I see a bunch of Roaches and build Immortals/Sentries, then they switch to Mutalisks and unless I happen to scout the Spire transition (which is difficult because it seems like every Zerg builds Spore Crawlers near their mineral lines, and the Spire is often located there) I am caught without defensive cannons or Blink and take a massive amount of damage. Maybe I should just start building cannons proactively.
no my response is adding cannons as soon as i see the spire then i drop down 2 stargates and start +1 air weapons all you have to do is to defend his first 15-20 mutas with as less damage as possible so, you build cannons where he might come, it s often very obvious and you might also see where he s heading with your observer you add 5 stalkers to your cannon defence and defend with your first 4-x phoenix his mutas, after that it s just massing phoenix and scouting whether he goes corrupters or infestors then you can change your style, often ht tech afterwards is the best choice
also you said you can t scout the spire because the zerg builds spores if you go for hallu you will see the spire no matter what, because you can just fly over the spore and sac the hallucination with the observer you can scout how many gases he has roaches=4 gases ling roach=3 gases mutas=6gases
and always look whether he builds more lings than usual, it s an indicator that he s spending his gas on sth else
does this help you? my replays would explain that better i m sure
Hey dude. One thing I noticed on your replays is that you dont really have continuous probe production in the first 10 minutes. Is there any reason for that or is it just mistakes? Because I the Ohana game vs Elvis you have 45 vs 80 at one moment, and I dont think thats an advantage for you :p
If you could shed some light on it it would be awesome.
On July 09 2012 10:13 Daimai wrote: Hey dude. One thing I noticed on your replays is that you dont really have continuous probe production in the first 10 minutes. Is there any reason for that or is it just mistakes? Because I the Ohana game vs Elvis you have 45 vs 80 at one moment, and I dont think thats an advantage for you :p
If you could shed some light on it it would be awesome.
well i can t build probes constantly, because if i do so i m not safe anymore the thing is, he drones extremly hard and follows that up with a tech i m defending his tech efficently while probing up, as soon as i see him not trying to kill him i can build probes and try to catch up you simply can t be even vs zerg, it s impossible, i mean in dronecount
What do you guys think of 6-7 minute thirds vs gasless 3 base style? You can end up with 6 gas really fast which also allows for a ton of sentries, but less energy on them, but you can flood in with a ton of gates around 11 minutes.
On July 11 2012 03:03 CapTanObviOs wrote: What do you guys think of 6-7 minute thirds vs gasless 3 base style? You can end up with 6 gas really fast which also allows for a ton of sentries, but less energy on them, but you can flood in with a ton of gates around 11 minutes.
well my build is 7.15-7.30 anything earlier is in my opinion punishable by just making units as a toss you also need to add gates and stuff for production i really think this requires more testing
Would love some input on how to deal with drops vs this. Any time zerg gets drops and just drops his roach ling army on my sentry-heavy army, I'm not gonna have a very good time
After doing this for a few days on ladder(mid-master) I can say it definitely has potential. Great build - with proper execution I am able to beat almost everything zerg throws at me.
That being said some of your replays are kinda confusing.. Is your advice to put down 2 stargates and/or move stalkers into position for defending drops every time you get suspicious? I'm pretty sure these were not the first times anyone on ladder calls you a hacker if you do that consistently..
On July 11 2012 13:36 brain_storm wrote: After doing this for a few days on ladder(mid-master) I can say it definitely has potential. Great build - with proper execution I am able to beat almost everything zerg throws at me.
That being said some of your replays are kinda confusing.. Is your advice to put down 2 stargates and/or move stalkers into position for defending drops every time you get suspicious? I'm pretty sure these were not the first times anyone on ladder calls you a hacker if you do that consistently..
i m just moving my stalkers to my main if i scout the spire if i m assuming him going for a hidden spire im just putting down 2 stargates
and it actually was the 1. time anyone called me hacker :D
On July 12 2012 05:16 -MoOsE- wrote: So when you scout mutas you go 2 stargates instead of blink/ ht? Also what is your reaction to fast broods? ie 15 min ones
yep, i personaly prefer going phoenix, but you can also go blinkstalkers, but it s a lot harder with this kind of build broodlords mean infestor tech before if i see infestor tech i go twilight and robo bay, into a 3 base blinkstalker colossi all in but that s all up to you, you can do what you want, that s not part of my build anymore
Hi, appreciate the guide, I've tried this build and its good defensively, but how do you normally play against the more passive approach in response to your fast 3rd. (ie taking a fourth, going to infestors + hive with a lot of spines)?
Also, how many sentries do you normally make in total?
On July 11 2012 03:03 CapTanObviOs wrote: What do you guys think of 6-7 minute thirds vs gasless 3 base style? You can end up with 6 gas really fast which also allows for a ton of sentries, but less energy on them, but you can flood in with a ton of gates around 11 minutes.
well my build is 7.15-7.30 anything earlier is in my opinion punishable by just making units as a toss you also need to add gates and stuff for production i really think this requires more testing
I've been testing this quiete a lot and found it to only be safe on Entombed Valley, cause you can wall urself in completly at your third. I think on this particular map its better to go for a 3rd at 6.30 and then add your 3 additional gates at the entrance to the 3rd. (Take the Rocks down while doing so and of course mak a cannon behind your gates).
On other Maps you just die to early speedling attacks because it's alomost impossible to get out enough units in time to safe your 3rd without having it walled off.
It might be possibly on Daybreak though but that seems hard to me because the choke is really large.
if i see infestor tech i go twilight and robo bay, into a 3 base blinkstalker colossi all in but that s all up to you, you can do what you want, that s not part of my build anymore
Ok so you go 1 robo with 2 collusus I"m guessing? and then like 10 or so gates and +2 attack?
if i see infestor tech i go twilight and robo bay, into a 3 base blinkstalker colossi all in but that s all up to you, you can do what you want, that s not part of my build anymore
Ok so you go 1 robo with 2 collusus I"m guessing? and then like 10 or so gates and +2 attack?
exactly
i ll respond to you other guys as soon as i have time again, new replays will be uploaded in about 1-2 weeks sorry, but i m busy at the moment
Ok so I want to play macro style with with build against fast broodlords, and I keep gettting rolled. I am looking for help on the transitions. I feel like I'm close to holding off these brood pushes I just need to rework a couple of things.
Now I went for warp prism harass and took a 4th but I think the mothership was late, so maybe throw down the stargate earlier. And should I go for collosus too? Or just skip them and go for more archons? Finally, what time should I take my 4th if I see the z going for fast broods?
On July 17 2012 11:11 -MoOsE- wrote: Ok so I want to play macro style with with build against fast broodlords, and I keep gettting rolled. I am looking for help on the transitions. I feel like I'm close to holding off these brood pushes I just need to rework a couple of things.
Now I went for warp prism harass and took a 4th but I think the mothership was late, so maybe throw down the stargate earlier. And should I go for collosus too? Or just skip them and go for more archons? Finally, what time should I take my 4th if I see the z going for fast broods?
Thanks
to the rep, the build you played was fine, except that you should go observer first after your robo finished or you should go for an a lot earlier hallucination you scouted him too late, that s why your transition was late i usually prefer colossus over archons, but that s always up to the player if you see the zerg going fast blords, you can take the 4. as soon as your 3. is saturated the zerg is investing into tech, and you ll need 4 gases asap
On July 18 2012 06:12 Yuffie wrote: very nice build and good job repsonding to occuring questions. keep on your good work,
cheers
On July 18 2012 06:58 CynicalToss wrote: Thank you for the guide, I have been struggling in finding a comfortable opening against zerg's that doesn't just completely die to the roach timing.
nice guide as i am a 15 year old mid masters, on NA though, but usually my expo is planted down at 10-10:30, now i feel confident into taking an earlier expo, as zergs wont devote huge swarms of units that early into the game anyways, Ty :D
I think if you are going for the 4th in response to the quick broods you need to drop the stargate when you see the z has a 4th and an infestation pit or else the z can hit a timing before you have enough energy to vortex. What do yall think on this?
On July 19 2012 13:31 -MoOsE- wrote: I think if you are going for the 4th in response to the quick broods you need to drop the stargate when you see the z has a 4th and an infestation pit or else the z can hit a timing before you have enough energy to vortex. What do yall think on this?
i agree with you, but i have to say to myself, that i don t have enough experience in the lategame pvz i usually try to kill the zerg before greater spire is done
Very solid build. I especially like the solid gateway walls at the third to block the attack path. The Stargate transition after seeing just 3 spines and Lair on Ohana was particularly brilliant.
By massive do you mean at 12-13mins? The earlier you get your expo, the better off you are. I have held the drops off, although it is easier on some maps than others.
On July 23 2012 12:05 etherealfall wrote: By massive do you mean at 12-13mins? The earlier you get your expo, the better off you are. I have held the drops off, although it is easier on some maps than others.
I am max at 12-13 min (sometimes a bit later because i bring some banelings) and i drop everything in the protoss army. Most of the time the protoss don't even reach 150 pop.
On July 23 2012 12:05 etherealfall wrote: By massive do you mean at 12-13mins? The earlier you get your expo, the better off you are. I have held the drops off, although it is easier on some maps than others.
I am max at 12-13 min (sometimes a bit later because i bring some banelings) and i drop everything in the protoss army. Most of the time the protoss don't even reach 150 pop.
Ah. I havent had to deal with banelings, but with good sim city, I think a protoss can definitely hold it off with this build, providing good macro and active scouting. Any replays to show otherwise?
On July 23 2012 11:56 CakeInFire wrote: As a GM zerg i have something like 90% win against this build. How do you survive from massive drop ling/roach ? you have replay?
i played vs you on ladder and i lost vs it but only because i was out of position i scouted it, because you didn t have tech and your hatcherys were moving, so you were researching drops i knew what was coming but after minute 12 i was suspicious because i expected it earlier so i moved my obs away and i missed your overlords moving but i had an alot better army and would have won if i wouldn t have been standing at my 3. on daybreak
roach ling drops are definetly hard to deal with, because your blink is late but it s definetly possible
BIG UPDATE WILL COME SOON I HAVE SOME IMPROVEMENTS ON THE BUILD MORE DETAILS
give me at least 2 weeks, because i ll have to rework it and also safe some reps and stuff i also have to test it more
Hi, Nice guide, I've been messing with early 3 rd pvz and I think it is the best response to stephano 3 base no gas.
Question for you - do you ever think it is viable to get the nexus first @ 6:30 and the 3 gates at 7:00? I am experimenting with this but haven't encountered many good responses from zerg to punish it yet
On July 24 2012 10:14 LiSAuCE wrote: Let's say zerg was going for broodlords. What would be a good time to drop Stargate tech? Still on 3 bases or on four?
I just played a zerg who just massed broodlords and i didn't have mothership.....
In Day9's most recent PvZ daily he discusses robo/sentry > 3rd, and points to ~16:00 as the key attack timing to hit before broodlords vs a typical 3 base zerg style. While it isn't this exact build, you might find his discussion of the various phases interesting.
You will probably be 4 base by then if you are playing correctly, but you can start stargate before 4th if you scout quicker hive.
On July 24 2012 08:52 quillian wrote: Hi, Nice guide, I've been messing with early 3 rd pvz and I think it is the best response to stephano 3 base no gas.
Question for you - do you ever think it is viable to get the nexus first @ 6:30 and the 3 gates at 7:00? I am experimenting with this but haven't encountered many good responses from zerg to punish it yet
On July 24 2012 10:14 LiSAuCE wrote: Let's say zerg was going for broodlords. What would be a good time to drop Stargate tech? Still on 3 bases or on four?
I just played a zerg who just massed broodlords and i didn't have mothership.....
In Day9's most recent PvZ daily he discusses robo/sentry > 3rd, and points to ~16:00 as the key attack timing to hit before broodlords vs a typical 3 base zerg style. While it isn't this exact build, you might find his discussion of the various phases interesting.
On July 24 2012 10:14 LiSAuCE wrote: Let's say zerg was going for broodlords. What would be a good time to drop Stargate tech? Still on 3 bases or on four?
I just played a zerg who just massed broodlords and i didn't have mothership.....
In Day9's most recent PvZ daily he discusses robo/sentry > 3rd, and points to ~16:00 as the key attack timing to hit before broodlords vs a typical 3 base zerg style. While it isn't this exact build, you might find his discussion of the various phases interesting.
You will probably be 4 base by then if you are playing correctly, but you can start stargate before 4th if you scout quicker hive.
I will definitely watch this thanks so much quillian.
I have another question if you guys don't mind (PvZ is my most stale matchup, I just immortal all in 95 percent of the time): If I'm doing this 4 gate robo style, how do I scout for drops. Is overlord speed the ONLY thing to look for?? in PvT I can just place an obs just off my base and snipe 1-2 medivacs. Doesn't really work with mass ovies. I was thinking about getting obs speed and such, but I'm really at a lost on to how to stop mass drops.
On July 24 2012 10:14 LiSAuCE wrote: Let's say zerg was going for broodlords. What would be a good time to drop Stargate tech? Still on 3 bases or on four?
I just played a zerg who just massed broodlords and i didn't have mothership.....
In Day9's most recent PvZ daily he discusses robo/sentry > 3rd, and points to ~16:00 as the key attack timing to hit before broodlords vs a typical 3 base zerg style. While it isn't this exact build, you might find his discussion of the various phases interesting.
You will probably be 4 base by then if you are playing correctly, but you can start stargate before 4th if you scout quicker hive.
I didn't watch the daily, but I disagree with this statement. The generally accepted timing you have to hit is before15:00, as 15:00 is when the first 5ish broods pop. Successful pushes against completely passive Zerg play all hit between 14:00 and 15:00
On July 24 2012 10:14 LiSAuCE wrote: Let's say zerg was going for broodlords. What would be a good time to drop Stargate tech? Still on 3 bases or on four?
I just played a zerg who just massed broodlords and i didn't have mothership.....
In Day9's most recent PvZ daily he discusses robo/sentry > 3rd, and points to ~16:00 as the key attack timing to hit before broodlords vs a typical 3 base zerg style. While it isn't this exact build, you might find his discussion of the various phases interesting.
You will probably be 4 base by then if you are playing correctly, but you can start stargate before 4th if you scout quicker hive.
I will definitely watch this thanks so much quillian.
I have another question if you guys don't mind (PvZ is my most stale matchup, I just immortal all in 95 percent of the time): If I'm doing this 4 gate robo style, how do I scout for drops. Is overlord speed the ONLY thing to look for?? in PvT I can just place an obs just off my base and snipe 1-2 medivacs. Doesn't really work with mass ovies. I was thinking about getting obs speed and such, but I'm really at a lost on to how to stop mass drops.
you have to look for 2 hatcherys/lair moving that indicates 2 upgrades are going 2 upgrades just can be drop+speed
@gronk i agree with you, you re totally correct with the timing but i think the build is still the same, so e.g. my expo build then a 13 minute 3 base all in this is how i m playing just with colossus, because i think this is stronger against infestors if you don t have aoe it s very hard against ling infestor with sentry zealo immortal
On July 24 2012 10:14 LiSAuCE wrote: Let's say zerg was going for broodlords. What would be a good time to drop Stargate tech? Still on 3 bases or on four?
I just played a zerg who just massed broodlords and i didn't have mothership.....
In Day9's most recent PvZ daily he discusses robo/sentry > 3rd, and points to ~16:00 as the key attack timing to hit before broodlords vs a typical 3 base zerg style. While it isn't this exact build, you might find his discussion of the various phases interesting.
You will probably be 4 base by then if you are playing correctly, but you can start stargate before 4th if you scout quicker hive.
I didn't watch the daily, but I disagree with this statement. The generally accepted timing you have to hit is before15:00, as 15:00 is when the first 5ish broods pop. Successful pushes against completely passive Zerg play all hit between 14:00 and 15:00
He basically said scout between 11-13. if Hive is just starting or not started, you have 4 minutes. If it is building, you have 3 minutes. If it is done, you have 2 minutes. With this style the zerg should be building more roach/ling to deal with your blink stalker/immortal/sentry pressure at his third/forth, so the hive might be slowed a bit.
still, scout.
i think it (3rd base before gates) will be viable in hots, but not now
The reason I like it (aside from the economy) is you can wall your 3rd with the 3 gateways, which makes holding quick ling pressure way easier. 2 cannons behind 3 gates with sentries will deflect most stuff before 9-10 minutes.
On July 24 2012 10:14 LiSAuCE wrote: Let's say zerg was going for broodlords. What would be a good time to drop Stargate tech? Still on 3 bases or on four?
I just played a zerg who just massed broodlords and i didn't have mothership.....
In Day9's most recent PvZ daily he discusses robo/sentry > 3rd, and points to ~16:00 as the key attack timing to hit before broodlords vs a typical 3 base zerg style. While it isn't this exact build, you might find his discussion of the various phases interesting.
You will probably be 4 base by then if you are playing correctly, but you can start stargate before 4th if you scout quicker hive.
I didn't watch the daily, but I disagree with this statement. The generally accepted timing you have to hit is before15:00, as 15:00 is when the first 5ish broods pop. Successful pushes against completely passive Zerg play all hit between 14:00 and 15:00
i think it (3rd base before gates) will be viable in hots, but not now
The reason I like it (aside from the economy) is you can wall your 3rd with the 3 gateways, which makes holding quick ling pressure way easier. 2 cannons behind 3 gates with sentries will deflect most stuff before 9-10 minutes.
On July 24 2012 10:14 LiSAuCE wrote: Let's say zerg was going for broodlords. What would be a good time to drop Stargate tech? Still on 3 bases or on four?
I just played a zerg who just massed broodlords and i didn't have mothership.....
In Day9's most recent PvZ daily he discusses robo/sentry > 3rd, and points to ~16:00 as the key attack timing to hit before broodlords vs a typical 3 base zerg style. While it isn't this exact build, you might find his discussion of the various phases interesting.
You will probably be 4 base by then if you are playing correctly, but you can start stargate before 4th if you scout quicker hive.
I didn't watch the daily, but I disagree with this statement. The generally accepted timing you have to hit is before15:00, as 15:00 is when the first 5ish broods pop. Successful pushes against completely passive Zerg play all hit between 14:00 and 15:00
But that assumes a completely passive zerg, as you said yourself. If you watch the daily you'd see and hear how Sean is reasoning. As always, scout scout scout... A zerg that focused heavily on roach (12min timing etc) will be extremly vulnerable around 16-17 min rather than 15, since you will have a stronger army to stomp his roaches (and small amount of infestors) with, but yeah spinezerg needs to be hit earlier...
Been trying this build and I like it a lot. Only times I really lose is due to fast mutas. Main reason is because of my slow scouting I think. What time exactly do you get halluc? Also, do you chrono it out at all?
In general how do you spend your chronos after warpgate? Thanks a lot!
Im definitely going to try this build! Just one question: do you always go double stargate if you scout mutas? and if yes, then how many phoenix do you get? in my experience, if he goes just mass ling corruptor you cant really take a fourth. And if he goes really really fast hive, what do you do? tech to colossus stalker and eventual mothership and take a fourht? Thanks alot for the time you spent on this guide :D Dragon
On August 01 2012 04:16 Dragonadern wrote: Im definitely going to try this build! Just one question: do you always go double stargate if you scout mutas? and if yes, then how many phoenix do you get? in my experience, if he goes just mass ling corruptor you cant really take a fourth. And if he goes really really fast hive, what do you do? tech to colossus stalker and eventual mothership and take a fourht? Thanks alot for the time you spent on this guide :D Dragon
i started going 3 stargates when i scout it, as i said i m going to update the guide soon because if i go 3 stargates and my opponent switches to infestors i can go straight into carriers if he goes corrupters, you re perfectly fine, you can harass him with your few phoenix you have left
updated the guide, new banner, thx to my mate henryk i still have to add the changes i did to the build, but i don t find any decent replays if i find some i ll update it
thank you for your positive feedback, highly appreciated
new replay has been added my build into 3 stargate phoenix vs my opponents mutas into mass carrier because of his fast infestors and his quick hive tech relativly clearly played, should give you a good help to know what to do after killing his mutas you can also see how important it is to not overproduce phoenix and to scout his infestor transition
update new replay has been added it s a replay of my new version basically you put 2 probes into each gas and go up to 3 probes in gas just when you start your 3 gates also you go for a +1 zealot push fake http://drop.sc/235863
please watch this replay, it was very clearly played by me and you ll see the difference between my old version and my new one
I'm doing a very similar build with very high success (high platinum here), my PvZ winrate is currently at 90%.
I actually change my buildorder after scouting. With a fast 3rd of the Zerg (~4 - 5 minutes) I usually go straight into Robo and delay the following Gates & Twilight and favour very fast Immortal production as well as +1 armour. If the 3rd comes a bit later (~6 minutes) I favour the Gates & Twilight to get +2 attack and Blink Stalker asap. And I have to admit, I ALWAYS try to attack before 15 minutes with ~170 supply of mass Blink Stalkers, Immortals, Sentrys and DTs / Archons with +3 attack.
I quite like your difficulty ratings of the maps and have to agree with them a lot. Especially daybreak is a very hard map in PvZ when Zerg go for the Roach max. Your defence has to be on top there. Entombed valley, on the other hand, is a great macro PvZ map. A roach max is quite easy to defend there and even mutas aren't that effective there.
a. When should I absolutely have an observer by? b. Under what conditions should I get an obs FIRST out of my robo as is done in a few of the replays? c. When should I say the zerg is being passive if I'm not attacked? By the time the nexus finishes? By 9 minutes? By 10 min?
a. always get an obs first as it doesnt delay your immortals too long if you use chronoboost and you just die instantly to mutas if you cant scout them. b. see a c. Use your obs to find out wether he is teching or not. If you see an Infestation Pit or a Spire, you know there is no super big push coming.
On October 08 2012 01:59 NewEyes wrote: I would recommend to
a. always get an obs first as it doesnt delay your immortals too long if you use chronoboost and you just die instantly to mutas if you cant scout them. b. see a c. Use your obs to find out wether he is teching or not. If you see an Infestation Pit or a Spire, you know there is no super big push coming.
Thanks a ton dude, that sounds reasonable. I tried this build without that and kept losing to zergs who would just be like "kay. fast broods rofl". Immortals are rather lackluster against broods.
I am curious about the transition to lategame with this build .... do you try to hit a timing before broodlords with a couple of immortal and colossus ?? Cause i get that you scout with your hallucination if he goes for muta or infestors, but if he decides to stay defensives, with a couples of spines and infestors even if you did go for Ht/Colossus you can't really kill him, and the real probleme is once is broodlords are out, then that just gg right there unless you hit a real good vortex.
On October 10 2012 00:31 Empire.Mista wrote: I was using this build some time ago , gave it a go recently against stephano , he stillrolled me with million of units.
well i havn t done it against stephano, but i ve done it against Abstract, top 50gm europe, you might know him. and i ve always defended succesfully
i think you should easily be able to even defend vs stephano, it s not easy, it takes a lot of practice to defend vs it on a high level, i can talk about that from my own experience
On October 09 2012 23:53 HellRush wrote: I am curious about the transition to lategame with this build .... do you try to hit a timing before broodlords with a couple of immortal and colossus ?? Cause i get that you scout with your hallucination if he goes for muta or infestors, but if he decides to stay defensives, with a couples of spines and infestors even if you did go for Ht/Colossus you can't really kill him, and the real probleme is once is broodlords are out, then that just gg right there unless you hit a real good vortex.
-_-'
that s a problem of pvz not of my build ^^
i m usually going for the 3 base timing push, but i don t know, zergs learned to defend vs it
On October 10 2012 03:37 Empire.Mista wrote: Yeah abstract is greek like me , my university is at the city that he lives.
greeks are nice guys, you both are nice guys tell abstract to get active again :/
i m just having problems with extremly greedy zergs like dana for example, i can t punish them in a perfect time, i m currently trying to get a timing which i can hit vs them
I tried to do this kind of build a few times, and I just kept dying to roach max out builds. I dont see how this is any better than the 7 gate 2 base robo all in. It's like, I can either all in them at 9-10 min with an army on 2 base when they dont have hive tech, or I can all in them at 17 minutes with a similar army and let them get the perfect army. I'd rather the fight come down to mid-game macro and micro rather than vortex or die.
On October 10 2012 07:01 ishyishy wrote: I tried to do this kind of build a few times, and I just kept dying to roach max out builds. I dont see how this is any better than the 7 gate 2 base robo all in. It's like, I can either all in them at 9-10 min with an army on 2 base when they dont have hive tech, or I can all in them at 17 minutes with a similar army and let them get the perfect army. I'd rather the fight come down to mid-game macro and micro rather than vortex or die.
was that a serious post? this build is also able to transition into the lategame, if you want that transition or not, that s your choice
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OVTty.jpg)
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