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[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 200

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Fang Xianfu
Profile Joined April 2013
United Kingdom6 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-23 22:48:12
April 23 2013 22:12 GMT
#3981
First, looking at TRM alpha 1.0 on a UK layout, I'm struggling to understand why the upgrade keys are so different across the different buildings. For example - barracks and factory tech lab both use J but starport tech lab doesn't. Likewise the barracks and factory tech labs both have three upgrades but use JI# and J/I respectively.

It's similarly weird that the fusion core uses I and 8, and the ghost academy uses H and #. I would've expected that you would've determined which keys were easiest to press (say, J is easiest, then I, /, #, H and finally 8) and structures with two upgrades would use J and I, structures with 3 introduce /, four uses # as well, etc. Given what I've seen in the rest of this thread I can't imagine that this wasn't given a lot of thought, so what's the reasoning behind that?

Secondly, I couldn't find a a UK layout on github, and it looks from the alpha doc like the UK QWERTY layout (which moves the \| key to the left side of the keyboard and adds a key, #~ between ' and enter; Wikipedia's QWERTY page has pictures) has screwed up the apostrophe key. As you'll note above, things are on # for me using TRM that the doc says should be on ', and ' is bound to rotate camera left. I think that means that UK needs a new keyboard layout where the "Apostrophe" and "Grave" key names are reversed. I'm not sure where the "Grave" key is on the US layout, though, so it might make more sense to leave it unbound.

TL;DR: upgrade keys seem weirdly inconsistent, and there needs to be a UK QWERTY keyboard layout defined where Apostrophe in the source file is changed to Grave and perhaps Grave is changed to Apostrophe.
peter22
Profile Joined April 2013
Belarus25 Posts
April 24 2013 01:45 GMT
#3982
On April 23 2013 12:04 Whirligig wrote:
Can anyone explain to me the logic behind location cameras 7 & 8? I'm sure there is a good reason why it's so different but I can't work out how to use them as planned.

Something to do with creep spreading??


it was definitely better in the version before ...
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 02:51:47
April 24 2013 02:02 GMT
#3983

it was definitely better in the version before ...


Hi Peter,

I'm glad you have that opinion. Would you mind explaining why you think so?

Edit: @Jak, newest ZRM: quick view player is bound to ctrl w. Should be ctrl p, so probably a handedness error.

So is chat, lair, hive.
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 24 2013 13:55 GMT
#3984
gah! Blasted handedness errors!!

@peter22
its a pretty easy fix to change it back. Did you try the new way out in game?
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
April 24 2013 14:18 GMT
#3985
The others are not handedness, they are the same ones that have recurred with every 1.0 patch so far
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
thayneq
Profile Joined March 2013
96 Posts
April 24 2013 16:14 GMT
#3986
On April 24 2013 11:02 Ninjury_J wrote:
Show nested quote +

it was definitely better in the version before ...


Hi Peter,

I'm glad you have that opinion. Would you mind explaining why you think so?


Ninjury, you are far more tolerant than I am of ignorant people. :-) I will refrain from saying what I am thinking right now out of the slim chance that Peter may actually have something useful to add the conversation.

Peter, I'm listening. Proceed.
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
April 24 2013 17:24 GMT
#3987
@Jak
If you add totally new global keys to TheCoreSeed.ini, you also need to add them to the GENERAL_KEYS array in TheCoreRemapper.py. This is not ideal, but was necessary back when we had all the different types of mappings going on, and I didn't change it.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
April 24 2013 18:30 GMT
#3988
Good to know. Did I do that and create a problem?
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
April 24 2013 20:48 GMT
#3989
On April 24 2013 11:02 Ninjury_J wrote:
Edit: @Jak, newest ZRM: quick view player is bound to ctrl w. Should be ctrl p, so probably a handedness error.

@Jak -- I believe errors like the one Ninjury is describing are caused by that issue. I'm not 100% sure though
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
April 24 2013 22:31 GMT
#3990
On April 22 2013 07:07 Ninjury_J wrote:
Intelligentsia.... I got a chuckle out of that. Please don't mistake me for somehow being a guru at this, I am just passionate about it and try to try my best

Prelim: it is important to realize that anyone coming off of standard or grid likely has not had the use of all control groups. Ours are some of the best keys possible to hit, so we have access to all of them, and I think it is worth abusing.

Suggested control groups are hard. On one hand, we want to have the most used control groups on the most functional keys in conjunction with likely combinations of other cgs and abilities. In this paradigm, we want control groups to be rigid, so that you can associate a button with a unit/ combination of units. On the other hand, zerg has lots of control groupable units that all have very different functions. It also has the ability to use and have any combination of units at some point in a given long enough game. This means that we want flexible control groups which are game and situation dependent.

After watching replays of gms (not really watching... we were using ggtracker) to see what units are alive at the same time as other units, we tried to arrange the cgs following three principles. This is the "rigid version", (but just a suggestion):

1) ability units should be on the index finger whenever possible to allow for access to all abilities quickly.
2) highly synergistic combinations should be together or easily comboed.
3) priority for same fingered keys were determined by tech > resource value.

I'll outline what we did and why for zerg. The general logic applies to all the races, but if you would like to understand the t and p specifics, you should ask Jak. Also, bear in mind that this is my interpretation, and I could be very wrong. I will go in order of unit, and then say a word about structures.

P for hatches and shift P for queens are hopefully best explained by being awesome.

; for lings/ ultra. ; is the next best control group, lings are used more frequently then any other unit, and are used in every game, almost.

L for roaches/hydra. Great to have next to lings, since roaches and hydras make up the "army" units, most of the time. Roached have no abilities on the middle finger. Hydras have clear synergy with roaches. Same abilities, except no burrow move.

0 for banes. easy to combine with lings. Its middle finger ability is not time sensitive, and it is on a different row than the ling cg, so one will not press the wrong one by mistake.

9 for mutas. A no-ability unit that requires as most efficiency/speed as possible. Allows for easy combo with lings and banes. (Ideally we would have the three units be on three fingers. I am toying with the idea of 8 or k as a control group but i don't think it is worth it.)

- for Infestors. Best index key after ;

[ for vipers. Best index key after -. Allows evos on it as well which i will get to later.

' for corruptors and overseers. Not sure if one or either deserves their own cg, but they fly, have odd but useful abilities, and are necessary in many late games to deal with air and invis. I also dont know what else they would group well with otherwise.

= for Swarm hosts. Swarm hosts have four abilities, so need to be on index.

0 for broods. "But Ninjury, banes are on 0. You done goofed...". I know. We are by now running out of cgs, and through the ggtracker adventure, it seems like this is the best concession. If anyone had any other ideas for banes or hosts, I would love to hear em.

And ; for ultras: by late game, ultra might as well go with lings. Since lings are faster, after the cg is sent you can ctrl click the ultras or lings and manipulate manually. Again, running out of "rigid room".

A note on queens: Queens have 3 abilities which give them completely different functions. "inject queens" are special and get their own super modified control group. Lucky ladies. "creep queens" use "creep option 7", and therefore do not get control groups, until they become... "Battle queens!" Battle queens get put with broods cuz they are slow... maybe with lots of creep they should go into rangeland with hydras and roaches on L... not sure on this one.

Buildings go with "their" units to check upgrades in battle conveniently. This also reduces the use of next and previous subgroup on a ten-selection long upgrade group. It comes with 2 known downsides that I think are totally worth it. 1) With less than x units where x is between 1 and 4 depending on the unit, center on selection and double tap will return to the building. Sometimes. Annoying, but just use the mini map in these situations, imo. 2) If you try to a move without looking at the cg, and don't have any units, you may get an upgrade by accident. This is not a real problem, since if you did not have a building on the cg and tried to select and empty cg, you would still do something you may not want to (since you will have something selected before hand). If this second point doesn't make sense to you, it is cuz I am not explaining it well. Let me know and I will try again.

Evos go on [ cuz it is a good key, has three "abilities", and does not get occupied until hive tech. They are also the best building to mass for vipers, as I understand it.

I hope this helps. As you can see, it is quite tentative and very intuitive. The science behind it is mediocre at best, imo. Again, this is all my interpretation. While the facts about the layout are (I think) correct, my reasoning may be faulty. Jak made the final calls, so he may have some different reasoning than I do.

Please let me know if there are any questions you have, and definitely shout out any improvements we can make... I'm confident this is nowhere near perfect yet.


pretty sound logic all around. the only thing I take issue with is the combo of ultras and lings on ";" Ultras getting stuck behind lings is actually a pretty big problem. moving the group around will set you up for failure as the lings will get wherever you're going first, and will always end up in front. I think you're better off putting the ultras with broodlords and banes on "0". the ultras don't get stuck on banes (they explode) and heaving them under your broods inn a lategame army is a pretty good position (great if stalkers blink under there). also ultras tank well for banelings and have similar speed.
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
Borskey
Profile Joined February 2012
160 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 23:45:10
April 24 2013 23:41 GMT
#3991
On April 25 2013 01:14 thayneq wrote:
Ninjury, you are far more tolerant than I am of ignorant people. :-) I will refrain from saying what I am thinking right now out of the slim chance that Peter may actually have something useful to add the conversation.

Peter, I'm listening. Proceed.


Come on man, what's the purpose of this post? To make snide remarks?

On April 24 2013 10:45 peter22 wrote:
it was definitely better in the version before ...


I can't tell what you mean by "the version before", as the free cams for Zerg have changed a bunch of times recently.
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
April 25 2013 00:58 GMT
#3992
@Lobotomist,

Hey that's not such a bad idea. Anyone else wanna throw in some ideas?
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
DarkOwnage
Profile Joined April 2013
United States13 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-25 01:59:28
April 25 2013 01:58 GMT
#3993
On April 23 2013 22:26 DarkOwnage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 16:45 Hancho wrote:
On April 23 2013 10:36 DarkOwnage wrote:
On April 23 2013 02:29 JaKaTaK wrote:
DarkOwnage, could you explain in more detail what you mean?


I could write a quick basic program that would check to see if the user has the latest version. If they do not it would simply prompt the user if they wanted to update? If they choose yes, than it will download the latest version into the users appropriate hotkeys folder. I could even open the hotkeys folder after it gets placed there.

The design is completely subjective but this would seriously be a simple program to create. Very light weight and fast.

how do you know if a new version is available?


I am glad you asked!

There will be TWO XML documents. One XML document will be on the server (the keyboard layout download page) and the other XML document will be in the same location as my executable. I will download that file from the server and compare it to the XML document on the users computer. If it's different, I just simply replace it with the one from the server.

This XML document will also contain: the date it was released, the version, and release notes. This data will be displayed to the user when they are asked if they want to download the latest version.

How do I know which layout you will be using? The user will specify it in their saved settings (another XML document that doesn't get synchronized).

Very simple, but it will require the people who make the changes to the layouts to update the XML document on the server after each change.


Does this sound useful at all? I won't begin the development unless I know for sure that the people who maintain TheCore will take the XML updating seriously lol. And in all honesty, even if only one person uses it than it's still an accomplishment for me .
Josealtron
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States219 Posts
April 25 2013 02:25 GMT
#3994
Maybe I'm just stupid, but...I don't understand how to use the Alpha 1.0 Core build at all. With the stable build I just downloaded the hotkey file and was fine but on the alpha build I can't download anything. I took the hotkey file on there and copy pasted it into a txt document and ran it on SC2, but some of the hotkeys were for mouse buttons(and I did RRS, with no M at the end. are mouse buttons a requirement in the new build of the Core? My mouse has none.) I think I'm just totally missing something.
"If you give up on yourself, you give up on the world."
thayneq
Profile Joined March 2013
96 Posts
April 25 2013 03:08 GMT
#3995
On April 25 2013 08:41 Borskey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 01:14 thayneq wrote:
Ninjury, you are far more tolerant than I am of ignorant people. :-) I will refrain from saying what I am thinking right now out of the slim chance that Peter may actually have something useful to add the conversation.

Peter, I'm listening. Proceed.


Come on man, what's the purpose of this post? To make snide remarks?


That wasn't a snide remark. A snide remark would be something like what I was originally going to post, but decided to give the benefit of the doubt out of the respect I have for this group of people. :-). Can we move on please? Thanks!



On a totally different topic, did we ever get anywhere with the idea of a "Core Tips and Tricks" collection page where we can gather all the wonderful highlights from this 200 page thread? There are some real gems in here (Many of my previous posts have attempted to capture many of them).
thayneq
Profile Joined March 2013
96 Posts
April 25 2013 03:11 GMT
#3996
On April 25 2013 11:25 Josealtron wrote:
Maybe I'm just stupid, but...I don't understand how to use the Alpha 1.0 Core build at all. With the stable build I just downloaded the hotkey file and was fine but on the alpha build I can't download anything. I took the hotkey file on there and copy pasted it into a txt document and ran it on SC2, but some of the hotkeys were for mouse buttons(and I did RRS, with no M at the end. are mouse buttons a requirement in the new build of the Core? My mouse has none.) I think I'm just totally missing something.


You're not stupid! You're venturing into 1.0alpha territory, that's all.

The mouse buttons (side) are being used for next/previous subgroup. Jak is consolidating the versions so there is no longer an "mouse buttons" vs "no mouse buttons" version. I don't know the latest and greatest plan for how to support previous and next subgroup for folks without side mouse buttons. I know Jak is going to address that when 1.0 goes live soon. Someone else care to chime in?
thayneq
Profile Joined March 2013
96 Posts
April 25 2013 03:13 GMT
#3997
another random starcraft question.... have you guys noticed that you can pile overlords on top of your tech buildings making them very difficult to spot? How are folks getting around this, say, if they are trying to scout or attack your critical tech structures? Using zoom wheel??
Ninjury_J
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada408 Posts
April 25 2013 03:51 GMT
#3998
@thayneq,

I think a page like that would be an excellent addition to this project. I know Jak is super busy atm. Are you interested in starting a public or semipublic doc?

And yeah zoom wheel / rotate I guess.
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."- Sun Tzu
Hancho
Profile Joined July 2012
Germany89 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-25 09:46:43
April 25 2013 07:57 GMT
#3999
On April 25 2013 10:58 DarkOwnage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 22:26 DarkOwnage wrote:
On April 23 2013 16:45 Hancho wrote:
On April 23 2013 10:36 DarkOwnage wrote:
On April 23 2013 02:29 JaKaTaK wrote:
DarkOwnage, could you explain in more detail what you mean?


I could write a quick basic program that would check to see if the user has the latest version. If they do not it would simply prompt the user if they wanted to update? If they choose yes, than it will download the latest version into the users appropriate hotkeys folder. I could even open the hotkeys folder after it gets placed there.

The design is completely subjective but this would seriously be a simple program to create. Very light weight and fast.

how do you know if a new version is available?


I am glad you asked!

There will be TWO XML documents. One XML document will be on the server (the keyboard layout download page) and the other XML document will be in the same location as my executable. I will download that file from the server and compare it to the XML document on the users computer. If it's different, I just simply replace it with the one from the server.

This XML document will also contain: the date it was released, the version, and release notes. This data will be displayed to the user when they are asked if they want to download the latest version.

How do I know which layout you will be using? The user will specify it in their saved settings (another XML document that doesn't get synchronized).

Very simple, but it will require the people who make the changes to the layouts to update the XML document on the server after each change.


Does this sound useful at all? I won't begin the development unless I know for sure that the people who maintain TheCore will take the XML updating seriously lol. And in all honesty, even if only one person uses it than it's still an accomplishment for me .


i think it would be cool if you use github to check the current version.
The XML document can be in the root directory or
maybe you can parse the version number from the filenames.

I see problems:
atm the version number will not increased by little bug fixes
and there is only one version number for all layouts.

EDIT: the first thing that comes to my mind
a verstion.txt in the github root:
every row describe one version and which layouts are affected by the update.
the newest/current version is in the last row.
<version number>,[<zerg>,<terran>,<protoss>,<random>],[<right>,<left>],[<small>,<medium>,<large>]
(there must be at least one true value in the square brackets)

example:
1.0.1,y,y,y,y,y,y,y,y,y
1.0.2,y,n,n,n,y,n,n,y,n
1.0.3,y,y,y,y,y,y,y,n,n


1.0.1 - update affect all layouts
1.0.2 - update from 1.0.1 affect ZRM
1.0.3 - update from 1.0.2 affect all small layouts
fengshaun
Profile Joined April 2012
149 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-25 08:25:00
April 25 2013 08:23 GMT
#4000
how about a simple script that updates your copy?

initialize:
$ git clone <github_repo> ~/thecore

update:
$ git pull
$ cp thecore/path/to/preferred/layout.SC2Hotkeys ~/My\ Documents/Starcraft\ II/path/to/profile/hotkeys/layout.SC2Hotkeys

save it as thecore.bat and double-click. Done!
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