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On May 15 2012 19:32 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 03:04 EatThePath wrote:On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:On May 15 2012 01:33 IPA wrote:
Such ingratitude toward a player who is better than 99.875% of the players on TL who decided to come on to the Strategy forum and share his thoughts. Disagreement is fine; to pretend like Mista is a random diamond player whose thoughts and builds have no merit is beyond absurd.
As a Z player, I love reading these threads to see what Ps might do to counter roach-heavy style. Fascinating. Thanks Mista and please don't mind the peanut gallery. judging from the build order making 10 gates robo sitting on 2base for 14:30 then attacking and calls it mindgames he kind of sounds like a diamond player even rotterdams 2base 1stargate 2 robo build makes more sense than this where you force hydras with the stargate and if he goes spire tech instead you focus on only immortals 10gateways are actually not needed for 2base, neither is 56 probes. when koreans 2base its almost always max 16+16+12 ~44 workers. they also always would attack before zerg gets maxed out and 3k in the bank sounds like a build from 2010 The reason you are allowed to spill empty criticism without mod action is because you have the authority bought by competitive results. It's not really about the truth of the statements one way or the other, it's the self-righteous presentation with no pretense at a reasoned argument. If you want to drop by and act that way, people will say "that's Morrow, he must have a point" and they'd be at least half right. If random scrub says exactly the same thing, we have nothing to go on except his point blank contradictions, which are meaningless, and obviously that is useless posting at best, possibly negative posting if it scares away high level posters. We assume posts from high level players have value; again this seems like a simplification fit for people who can't analyze for themselves. On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:cut down gates to a number of 6~7 attack with 2 colossus and range and 1 warp prism and dont go over 44 workers and it seems just better in every way.
the other one is with 3 immortals If the assumption is that the zerg player will be making lings and roaches anyway, there is no reason to move out with a flimsy army that won't accomplish anything specifically other than "hope I win or do enough damage that it was worth it". If you wait for a big ball of units (including some immortals) you will be able to kill zerg units so much more cost effectively, and more importantly preserving your unit count. Anyway the specific comparison doesn't matter, OP build is completely different idea than an asap 2 base timing. @grubby and silvertine and monk (and some others): pleasure to read your posts  lol, you say morrow spills "empty criticism" but you dont address the actual points he makes about the strategy, like the overproduction of gateways. Even disregarding the names your post is "emptier" than his. I dont like his harsh tone either but he does also have real criticism and even disregarding the names, his post is lesss "empty" than yours.
You don't even understand what I was saying, and you go out of your way to tell me I'm wrong. Instead of getting my point, you illustrated it. Clever.
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Watched the replays. Seems like a strong all-in.
I think those are the main differences I could notice, compared to the "standard" immortals/blink stalkers all-in:
- low sentry count: only 2 sentries are made in the early game for defensive purposes. The saved gas is instead invested in faster tech. Low army at the beginning. Pretty greedy.
- very fast upgrades: chronoing upgrades non-stop, going quick double-forge. The main idea is to have 2 or 3 upgrades of advance compared to the Zerg, to make up for the lack of a fast third and trade efficiently.
- 10 gates: actually makes sense if you want to reinforce with round cycles of 10 zealots. Pure zealots builds can get up to 5 gates on 1 saturated base, so I'm not surprised you'd get 10 on 2 bases. You reinforce with zealots as a meat shield and against lings. You stop robo production as soon as the all-in starts. You only add additional gates at the last minute, to be ready when the all-in starts ( ie. no you're not on 10 gates for most of the game ! you can't produce stalkers out of 10 gates.. ).
- timing: delayed compared to the standard all-in. You try to push when you get to 3/2 and right before he techs to broods and saturates his fourth.
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This is a cute idea that abuses the common thought process of Zerg players. They think the attack is coming at 10 minutes, so they start pumping out units to max at 11:30. Then they're stuck on roach tech for the next few minutes and your 14:30 timing kills them before they complete their switch to broodlords.
I think this is definitely beatable with mass spines and roach+corruptor. What Z really needs to do is stall your push until they finish their tech transition. Another way to beat this build would be to base trade with a spine wall and possibly OL drops. And of course, if Z makes a read that you won't be pushing out until after 13 minutes, they can tech up to infestor-BL much faster. An 18 minute infestor-BL transition can turn into 14 minutes pretty easily if Z knows they'll be left untouched.
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Since this attack comes pretty late. It might actually be worth it to go beyond optimal saturation of 44 probes. Although I think 56 is too much. Is this build really optimized for that many probes on a 2 base all-in? You still get an economic boost even if it is slightly less efficient. I mean if you cut say 6 probes and 2 gates would you be able to get this push going slightly faster? I might have to try it.
I am also really dubious about having 10 gates which might only be worth it if you never make Stalkers during the all-in or if your macro slips up in the heat of the momment.
If you build that many probes for example you could instead make an expansion while you push out using that money you cut from making 2 extra gateways. Then you can actually transition out of it this push if you manage to do enough damage but not kill them.
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As a zerg player I would just go for 15 spines at my 3rd and at my natural if the protoss has not expanded at 13 minutes. Do you go for blink to counter that? It should be possible, but it is a hardcore all in. A base trade with all roaches should also be possible if I have 30 spines.
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On May 16 2012 00:23 RainF4ll wrote:
As a zerg player I would just go for 15 spines at my 3rd and at my natural if the protoss has not expanded at 13 minutes. Do you go for blink to counter that? It should be possible, but it is a hardcore all in. A base trade with all roaches should also be possible if I have 30 spines.
A grandmaster zerg attempted that in one of the replays he posted, it didnt work to well. I had a zerg attempt the same thing on Daybreak and I got through pretty quickly, although it was closer then I would have liked, granted im no GM but I am top 8 masters on NA, for whatever thats worth. I just love to see builds like these posted here, its a new way of thinking and helps to progress the meta game.
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nice build, its the same concept of a build i used some months ago. wp harass off 2 base into a 2 colosus all in with some ups. i would get blink and 1 1 with a higher sentry count. but this is even more savage with that double forge ups and 3 extra gates and colo. I used to hit an earlier timing though. the wp harrass is esential to disrupt his macro, keep him in his base while ur weak and scout his tech so u can deviate in time.
im wondering, would it be viable to drop a 10:30-11:00 min third to bait the roach max? i mean just a nexus and a pilon and cancelling it when u see he is maxing on them roaches.
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So why are people being warned for even mild criticism if this build? Lol I read ridiculously harsh criticism of some of Tang's build criticism...some who hadn't even read the original post. And yet people are getting warned here because they suggested it might be a little late and vulnerable to Mutas...which TheMista even admits himself? No edits on the posts or anything either. So who with warning/banning privileges has personal ties to TheMista?
That said, the build seems legit, if not a bit dependent on luck in knowing exactly what the other person scouted...the tech switch to immortals if you know they scouted is pretty smart though. Stephano must have experienced a slew of creative 2 base all-ins (IPL FC included), because he has been working on quicker Hive tech and foregoing the 3-base roach build a lot lately.
-->Oh and Morrow apparently thinks this build is trash, lol...so I guess it's not even as legit as I was giving it credit for...whoever warned the people on page 1 needs to warn a lot of the other posters...Morrow included, if you want to be consistent...what a fucking joke.
User was warned for this post
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Cool build I'm already scared to face it.
I've been wondering about implement drop and speed for overlords into the stephano style.
Have you faced any sort of drop play from zergs??
How about a zerg who fakes mutalisks, tries to deny scouting with overseer and gets a lot of hydralisks? Perhaps that could work (I try to find a use for hydralisks all the time, they're my favourite unit :D)
Since you adapt to muta's by only getting one collussi and no upgrades.
Or a combination of hydra's + drop?
Anyways I'm really scared to face that build on ladder. I'm not even good vs collussi in the first place 
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Hey Mista, good build! Just watched the replays and it seems legit. It doesn't particularly fit my style as I'm not much of an all-in player but still, worth trying. BTW, good job the other day on the showmatch against white-ra, I enjoyed it quite a bit . Good luck in the future!
People, if you want to decide if you continue with this build or not during scouting, keep in mind that stephano's spam roaches build plant's the roach warren at around the 7-8 minute mark. If you don't see that, don't expect mass roaches at the 12 minute mark. Which means that you can expand and/or transition to more standard play.
Cheers
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All you guys being so rude to one of the few Pro's who actually post here. This guy is pro for a reason, and one of the best players in the world. Be more respectful, if you want to disagree then do so , but coming in here into his threat that he was kind enough to take the time to write and trolling is uncalled for. Be more respectfull, was a nice post.
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On May 14 2012 16:33 Complete wrote:
10 gates, robo, 2 forge+TC/robo bay for a 2 base strat? Seems excessive.
Only 2 sentries?
I guess I need to watch the replays. But I don't really see what's stopping him from waiting until you leave your base, hitting you with maxed roach/ling, killing half your army, and then remaxing while you're moving accross the map to clean you up easily. Zerg will have like 3 minutes of larva injects/money savings from a roach spam strat.
I could see it working if he tried to roach spam in your natural, but I'm really not sure why he would if he see's you haven't taken a 3rd.
I don't like the idea of colossus for 2 base allins against high eco zerg builds either. Anything that gives zerg the ability to trade semi-cost effectively iin the mid-game is a huge win for them, especially if it's a high gas/tech unit like collo. This is also basically all-in if you haven't taken a 3rd by the 15 minute mark, stressing even higher the need for cost efficiency.
He's not gonna kill half of that army with only roaches and lings. Chances are he's going to kill about a 4th of it if he is lucky. Zeglings are rendered useless by the colossus and mass roaches sure aren't going to do well against 5+ immortals.
Roach max is by far the weakest max army in the game. It's not even going to put a dent into a 3-2 protoss army with immortals and colossus in it.
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On May 16 2012 00:15 kcdc wrote:
This is a cute idea that abuses the common thought process of Zerg players. They think the attack is coming at 10 minutes, so they start pumping out units to max at 11:30. Then they're stuck on roach tech for the next few minutes and your 14:30 timing kills them before they complete their switch to broodlords.
I think this is definitely beatable with mass spines and roach+corruptor. What Z really needs to do is stall your push until they finish their tech transition. Another way to beat this build would be to base trade with a spine wall and possibly OL drops. And of course, if Z makes a read that you won't be pushing out until after 13 minutes, they can tech up to infestor-BL much faster. An 18 minute infestor-BL transition can turn into 14 minutes pretty easily if Z knows they'll be left untouched.
I dunno. I think you're overestimating the power of roaches vs this kind of army. Roaches that can't even move freely because of spines being in the way is not going to be able to flank properly. Spines + roaches shouldn't be able to hold this push in any number unless you have like 3 layers of spines which would cost about 4k minerals to make. Usually to stop a colossus push with spines you need infestors + a few corruptors. If the zerg really does commit to the roach max then he wont have gas to make both of those.
Also protoss that has blink doesn't need to trade units to kill spines. He will just blink back hurt stalkers while colossus and immortals goes in on the spines.
I fail to see how anything other than a base trade (maybe with drops) would be able to beat this build after the zerg allready committed to mass roach. If zerg spots this and takes faster 6 gas and a faster 4th base for eventual 8 gas then maybe he can defend this if he stops roaches early enough. But then again, if you're playing like stephano you're gonna have 2-0 ranged upgrades and thus probably no more than 1-1 melee / carapace when the 3-2 protoss army comes.
Obviously you could muta switch if you knew this was coming early enough and pretty much shut down the build hard.
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Very simple strat to be honest, and I wasn't Really sold until I saw the replay vs Stephano. And wow, you've beaten the Korean demolishing Z-is-OP-in-ZvP God of Zerg, congratz :D Now granted, it's a strat that is designed to counter that specfic style, and Stephano went unusually ling heavy in that game, however, I think it would work as well against roaches or whatever. You made Stephano's army look like a normal zerg army, lol.
And I think if he goes mutas, so what. Go base race. What's his PATHETIC ling/spine wall gunna do vs. that deathball. Sure, your base will be gone, but keep enough stalkers and you'll win out in the end. Cannon up your natural if you must. What people seem to miss is that if zerg goes mutas they actually suck in a straight engagement for two reasons: head to head fight they aren't too bad, but they CAN'T kill the toss' base AND kill the toss army at the same time. And ling spine vs a deathball like that is a joke, whilst mutas may be trashing your base. So yeh, I think you have a really solid, well thought out and most importantly proven strategy here, wow man. Gratz :D !
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On May 16 2012 22:17 hillman wrote:
So why are people being warned for even mild criticism if this build? Lol I read ridiculously harsh criticism of some of Tang's build criticism...some who hadn't even read the original post. And yet people are getting warned here because they suggested it might be a little late and vulnerable to Mutas...which TheMista even admits himself? No edits on the posts or anything either. So who with warning/banning privileges has personal ties to TheMista?
That said, the build seems legit, if not a bit dependent on luck in knowing exactly what the other person scouted...the tech switch to immortals if you know they scouted is pretty smart though. Stephano must have experienced a slew of creative 2 base all-ins (IPL FC included), because he has been working on quicker Hive tech and foregoing the 3-base roach build a lot lately.
-->Oh and Morrow apparently thinks this build is trash, lol...so I guess it's not even as legit as I was giving it credit for...whoever warned the people on page 1 needs to warn a lot of the other posters...Morrow included, if you want to be consistent...what a fucking joke.
User was warned for this post
^ i can't tell if this mod has a sense of humor or just doesn't want to be questioned :D
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game against Stephano wasn't even close lol.
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I love the Stephano style. I cannon up and take a 3rd and 4th with void rays lol.
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The game against Stephano took place when he was streaming. That day was a funny day. Stephano was asking people in chat to suggest units he would use in the coming game. There was a game when he made 24 infestors. There was a game where he made 120 drones. He won some, he lost some, but still went up to second on the EU ladder that day from fourth.
In this particular game on Shakuras against Mista, Stephano went ling heavy, hardly any roaches at all. A bit atypical for him. He also did not even try to scout the Protoss base with an overload/overseer at all. 2 mistakes on his part which were highlighted in the stream chat after the game. Well done to Mista for managing to get a clean win though. The Stephano style is more currently associated with heavy Roach play generally, and specifically with a max out on roaches on 11-12 minutes though, rather than mainly using lings as in this game against Mista. Also this game was played before the recent Overlord buff which makes scouting by Zergs easier to execute. We will have to see how this effects the metagame generally and this build specifically.
Personally, I think it is great that Mista is sharing various strategies here for everyone to discuss. It will be interesting to see whether he can make a name for himself in tournaments going forward.
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EPT
