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Who am I ?
+ Show Spoiler +
Introduction to the build
+ Show Spoiler +After playing countless zerg players , playing the so called stephano style (maxing really fast with roach ling) came to the conclusion that maybe a maxed zerg with roach and ling might not be such a bad thing ! So i combined many of my builds to a new really strong timing build , wich requires a lot of map awareness and mindgames!.
Why it works?
+ Show Spoiler +This build is made to counter zergs that go fast 3rd base and will max roach ling because they dont scout a fast 3rd base from the protoss player (Yes its a 2 base timing push) . As soon as the zerg realises that you dont intend to take a 3rd base he will try to flood you and thats where it gets nasty ! He cant flood you because you will not move from your base untill you have 3-2 upgrades and 160-170 pop army at 14.30 mins !
This build also applies pressure and gives scouting information early on , because it involves prism harash that will make the zerg player a bit more afraid of an all in.
Mindgames
+ Show Spoiler +As i said above this build contains a lot of mind games
The best part of it is the mixture of collosus in your army combosition!
Collosus are so good against everything apart corruptors , so basecally if he scouts your collosus he cant know how many you are going to make!
You will try to deny all scout attempts from the zerg player who will be in alert and will desperatly try to get some information because he doesnt know what you are doing , try to hide the collosus tech/units if he spots the bay early make 1 rest immortals , he will make 8-12 corruptors , if he doesnt scout it then make 2-3 and rest immortals.Its really importand that your robo units mix in your deathball are counter to his main army ball.
The Build
+ Show Spoiler +Any standart FFE is fine but i prefer this one.
9 pylon
18 nexus
18 forge ( 3 cb for +1 attack)
18 gateway
18 pylon
18 cannon
19 1st gas
19 2cond gas
24 core (3 cb)
36 robo (prism,obs,immortal)
3rd gas
38 +2 gates
42 4th gas
twlight council 2cond forge (blink)
robo bay
+3 gateways
+3 gateways
+1 gateway
Push at 14.30 with 3-2 upgrades and 165-170 pop army.
Tips so the build works better
+ Show Spoiler +- Make 2 early sentries and keep them untill the push so they can have 4 forcefields each
- Use prism to harash , take watch towers , and scout the zerg players , try not to lose your zealots !
-dont make more than 56 probes
- Try to deny all scouting from the zerg player dont let him know what you are doing
- Try to get a good position in the big fight your army is supperior to his and with a good engagement you will probably lose 20 pop max.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
I will try to update this build with more replays and more tricks/moves while the time goes , meanwhile XD
https://twitter.com/#!/EmpireMista
http://www.facebook.com/EmpireMista
http://www.twitch.tv/gr8themista
http://www.team-empire.org/?theme=7
Any feedback would be awesome!
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10 gates, robo, 2 forge+TC/robo bay for a 2 base strat? Seems excessive.
Only 2 sentries?
I guess I need to watch the replays. But I don't really see what's stopping him from waiting until you leave your base, hitting you with maxed roach/ling, killing half your army, and then remaxing while you're moving accross the map to clean you up easily. Zerg will have like 3 minutes of larva injects/money savings from a roach spam strat.
I could see it working if he tried to roach spam in your natural, but I'm really not sure why he would if he see's you haven't taken a 3rd.
I don't like the idea of colossus for 2 base allins against high eco zerg builds either. Anything that gives zerg the ability to trade semi-cost effectively iin the mid-game is a huge win for them, especially if it's a high gas/tech unit like collo. This is also basically all-in if you haven't taken a 3rd by the 15 minute mark, stressing even higher the need for cost efficiency.
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You wont use robo after you leave your base you will relly replenishing your army purely from your gates with zealot/stalkers.
With good control he cant even kill 1/3 of your army off creep.
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show match vs stephano please! =] b07!
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I don't get how you ever beat a muta transition that he almost certainly will do when he sees no allin coming. He can easily base trade you for the free win with mutas.
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Its really hard for a zerg to go mutalisk when he doesnt see a 3rd base from protoss.
And you title says Anti stephano style , but even if he goes mutalisk you will scout it with your prism and obs.
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Thank you for the well written guide, TheMista. I find pointing towards 2 base timings interesting at a time where many Protoss have tried to get a quick third. I just would like two ask two questions.
How are you supposed to deny all scouting given how fast overseers are?
How does this style perform against alternative Z strategies? You seem to take it as granted that Z is playing for a big bust at 12 min, which does not need to be the case at all. Z could also opt for putting pressure on your third with his midgame army, while quickly teching and upgrading. While your army is certainly superior to pure roach linge, at the time of your push Z can easily have infestor, corruptor, (hydras), while at the same time being not terribly far away from hive tech. In fact, when P is staying on two bases for too long, it seems straightforward to go for a higher tech army, while at the same time having the clear macro lead.
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Put your stalkers in good spots to deny scouting.
It will take sometime for the zerg to realise what is going on your army will win everything except mutalisk (purely because of tradebase) and maybe baneling drops.
Prism will make sure to scout the zerg combosition and to keep zerg under pressure.
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I do not think you have given my argument enough considerations. What you propose is a two base timing push that exploits Z massing quickly, but the claim that it beats any army composition of Z at that time seems exaggerated. I mean, it is not like we haven't had two base deathball styles before, so it is hard to see what should be different this time.
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So you're counting on the zerg not pincering with overlords to scout? Looks beyond gimicky =\ no way in hell you should need the 10 gates unless you're banking ofc which you shouldn't be since you won't be maxxing out.
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with proper building (tech placement) you can prevent scouting and even if he does scout your bay you can make 1 collosus only , infestors are good yes but he cant know when you are going to attack so he needs to make units and your army is far stronger than his.he wont have time to get broodlords out .
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On May 14 2012 16:38 DaRandomGuy wrote:
show match vs stephano please! =] b07!
This.I would love to see that in action against Stephano.
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Since you have a lot of blink stalkers you wont be able to always make units when you have the warp ready so you need some extra gates to get the extra units ,
Your tech wont be that early to be scouted by overlords , and as soon as you get your +2 gates and warp in your prism lots you can make 4 stalkers and deny ovs and then throw bay twlight second forge.
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Ok then...after work im gona study the hell out of it....Gratz for beating Stephano....you got yourself a new fan here good sir.
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Sounds like a solid strategy, good description. Will try it out, next time i roll a PvZ
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On May 14 2012 16:56 C[h]ili wrote:
You seem to take it as granted that Z is playing for a big bust at 12 min, which does not need to be the case at all.
It's funny when people think Stephano style is "a huge bust". No zerg will try to attack if the protoss doesn't take a third, unless he has 0 units.
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Stephano style is flooding his opponent with roach ling.
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Looks like a rly late 2 base all in that is going to die vs muta play
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If you scout spire with obs/prism you can grab a quick third and play with blink  its not that you have to do a 2 base all in , the good thing with this is that you dont commit to an all in because you can scout before you decide to stay 2 base.
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This is not a good 'solution'. Sometimes you may win against zerg with it but it's a bad strat overall. Your waiting very long and all zerg has to do is survive your attack to get a free win as you're only left on 1 base by that point (first mines out around 14-15 mins).
Just roach corruptor into remax with roaches with some spines should hold this off easily.
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On May 14 2012 17:52 syriuszonito wrote:
Looks like a rly late 2 base all in that is going to die vs muta play
He made it very clear that the strat is intended to counter the roach max. Switching from 3 base roach/ling max into mutas is very difficult. The Zerg player will have absolutely no gas banked and only be on 4 geysers. They would have to be very quick in determining that the protoss is not taking a third and is going colossi. Even then the zerg's only chance would be to base race because there's no way you're going to defend that push without fungal/spine/corruptor, it doesn't matter how many mutas you have.
The protoss sits in base massing units and then a walks with colossi across the map. The zerg has to identify what you're doing(which is not easy), make the correct decision to completely deviate from their strategy and then defend well with fungal/spine/corruptor. Far superior zergs constantly lose to terribads using this strategy so I would say it's quite effective.
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If it was so easy don't you think Stephano would have won ? This is a good build and if zerg don't scout properly ( it's really hard because as you can see Mista did a great job for deny it with blink stalker ) it's hard without a good army composition.
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On May 14 2012 18:08 Markwerf wrote:
Just roach corruptor into remax with roaches with some spines should hold this off easily.
Roach/corruptor generally, and especially in this case, gets murdered by death balls. The absolute only way to defend it in this situation is with fungal/spine/corruptors.
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This seems really strong, can you share some replays of you losing?
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172 food with 4 colossi at enemy nat at about 14:25, this looks like an extremely strong push, hopefully this build wont catch on. I would really hate to face this on ladder since not everyone can macro like Stephano and even he got pretty crushed
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its funny how people say its a bad strategy when he beat stephano with it.
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If the zerg is maxed on roaches, he ain't getting mutas for a bit.
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On May 14 2012 18:22 piiiT wrote:
its funny how people say its a bad strategy when he beat stephano with it.
Well, stephano was asked to play that game ling heavy by the stream. So that was just Stephano doing what ppl wanted to see on stream.
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On May 14 2012 18:29 Natespank wrote:
If the zerg is maxed on roaches, he ain't getting mutas for a bit.
Zerg wouldn't be anywhere close to maxing when transitioning to mutas, would probably be at like 130-140 fd. There are lots of other problems with the idea of switching to mutas though.
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Awesome Mista, you surely earned a lot of points by adding this guide.
Just please add a [G] Tag, so it'll be easier to find in the future.
This is extremely powerful push, designed to crush maxed roach-ling army.
4 colossi, blink, 3-2 grades... it's gonna hit as hard, as a sledgehammer to the face.
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Nice guide!
I am wondering: how do you deal with roaches run bys?
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There has been an incredibly disturbing trend lately of protosses doing nothing but sitting on 2 bases for 15 minutes to make the best possible 2 base composition and pushing out. It's entirely all in, but it's incredibly hard to squeeze in the correct composition to stop something like this as zerg. You're basically given a small window of time to correctly assess the situation and build a wall of spines and get your corruptors + infestors out. While hoping he doesn't decide to push earlier.
If you accidentally put too much into a roach based army earlier in the game, you simply can't gather enough resources to stop it afterwards. It's incredibly frustrating. ZvP is so boring.
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On May 14 2012 18:33 cephalalgia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 18:22 piiiT wrote:
its funny how people say its a bad strategy when he beat stephano with it. Well, stephano was asked to play that game ling heavy by the stream. So that was just Stephano doing what ppl wanted to see on stream.
Yeah would like to see this against the real roach-ling style.
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Okay so this is quite funny you post on "how to beat stephano style" and then posting replay of stephano NOT doing his normal style... how are you sure this even would work against it ? quite joke man
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haha, this is good idea. but can u play for this vs. stephano?! if you win this is great then
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thats awesome. im a zerg player and i HATE stephano style. its so lazy. one thing though...
i got a m8 who makes the so called "YuffFe". the build has two variantes ( A and B ) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE
if he scouts early gas he take makes Variant A and makes a forge. If he scouts no gas he makes variant B, where he immidiatly takes a gas and makes core to produce stalkers and always keeps attacking with them.it forces SO many lings and he can scout what the zerg is really up to. without speed the zerg should hardly be able to secure the third without staying on 35 probes till the 8 minute mark.
with this agressive style the 11-12 min maxout will be slowed down to about 14-15 minute-maxout
which means you can take a quick third ( 9 minutes, if possible ) And be able to totally secure it with units. And: if he maxes out with roaches you will have immidiatly a force which can CRUSH it which wins you the game.
so much on theory..
stalker + zealot harass ( up to 3 stalkers i think in the end of the harass ) is not very easy to do.
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I played a similar collosus build before 2 month. It had a high succsess rate but back in that time the zergs played mutas quite often and i often lost due basetrade. How does this build deals with the mutalisk problem?!
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On May 14 2012 19:10 MooLen wrote:
I played a similar collosus build before 2 month. It had a high succsess rate but back in that time the zergs played mutas quite often and i often lost due basetrade. How does this build deals with the mutalisk problem?!
A few answers to that throughout the thread.
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Wow guys. Nice seeing little amateurs giving lessons to a pro level player coming to share a build.
No wonder no more pros even bother to read these forums. So STFU, watch the replays and fuck learn something.
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If I was a mod, I would ban half the people that posted into this thread. By seeing people entering this topic, and just posting, for the sake of posting and bitching about how this build is not viable, even if the person that published it use it on high gm, I wonder no more about the why people are not posting new guides.
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I want to see ling bling roach against this.. with 2 sentries and a zerg who sandwiches you with 40 blings
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(In my opinion), there is nothing wrong with a guy who has actual experience playing Europe's GM Zergs, who posts a build that has worked on occasion (even if it's only on occasion!), who tries to offer general help. It's easy to poke holes in builds or call it bad because of your opinion of how the game should be played, but also irrelevant to actual results. Sure, this is not an all-purpose build, but then again no build is. I've seen little appreciation and much theory crafting (some of it probably correct, others wrong). I would be scared to post a build if the reception would be mostly negative.
If someone posted a Diamond build without replays, then okay I get it. But he's beaten Stephano. Sure, it's only ladder, but it's something. I want to be one element of grateful reception at least. Thanks for posting this thread Mista ^^
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Am I the only one that goes fast third in response? @_@
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On May 14 2012 19:10 MooLen wrote:
I played a similar collosus build before 2 month. It had a high succsess rate but back in that time the zergs played mutas quite often and i often lost due basetrade. How does this build deals with the mutalisk problem?!
Well, it doesn't deal with the mutalisk problem. The zealot/prism harassment means you get a full scout of the zerg and his tech. If you see him being on 2 geysers at 9-10 minutes, or see an infestation pit or see a big roach army then you should probably not worry about mutalisks and go on with your build. If you see many geysers taken and a spire morphing or at least no infestation pit morphing, then you should take your third. You massively upgraded immortal/blink stalker force should help you take it safely and transition from there to a macro game.
Seems like a really strong push that requires a perfect combination of roach/spine/infestor/corruptor to be dealth with. The problem is that it is really tough to scout, there is no tell besides the colossi (which could be hidden) and the double forge upgrading constantly (which is pretty hard to scout). I forsee more zergs blindly going ~10 spines at the front (plus infestor tech) regardless of other scouting information when the toss hasn't expanded by 10-11 minutes. An army like Mista's cannot be cleared by a normal 200 zerg army, even if you are not cought in the hive transition.
I would suggest to the OP to add some replays of him transitioning to 3 base after scouting spire, in order to make the guide complete. Also I pray to god that not many people read this thread and start raping zergs around in ladder
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On May 14 2012 19:20 Douillos wrote:
Wow guys. Nice seeing little amateurs giving lessons to a pro level player coming to share a build.
No wonder no more pros even bother to read these forums. So STFU, watch the replays and fuck learn something.
This is so true. This game is so much more complicated than theorycrafters make it out to be. This guy is better than (possibly) everyone who has commented so far, and therefore almost certainly has a much higher level understanding of the game.
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On May 14 2012 19:40 Grubby wrote:
(In my opinion), there is nothing wrong with a guy who has actual experience playing Europe's GM Zergs, who posts a build that has worked on occasion (even if it's only on occasion!), who tries to offer general help. It's easy to poke holes in builds or call it bad because of your opinion of how the game should be played, but also irrelevant to actual results. Sure, this is not an all-purpose build, but then again no build is. I've seen little appreciation and much theory crafting (some of it probably correct, others wrong). I would be scared to post a build if the reception would be mostly negative.
If someone posted a Diamond build without replays, then okay I get it. But he's beaten Stephano. Sure, it's only ladder, but it's something. I want to be one element of grateful reception at least. Thanks for posting this thread Mista ^^
Don't encourage him Grubby, I don't want to play against this anymore than I already have ;_____;
In response to the build, how well do mutas ACTUALLY do against this? People seem to be getting offended that mutas are being suggested as a response but I feel like you could honestly just counter attack him to death and hide a few expos, especially if you got drop tech to ferry your units around. Obviously you can scout the mutas and make the decision to alter your build but even then I feel like once you go 2 base colossus with this, if you decide to take a third you'd be behind.
I played against a Protoss today that did this and I just set up a massive flank of roach ling with queens and like 10 spines and crushed this, but I feel like this was just luck and the guy was bad, and you need either mutas or infestors. I'm wondering how you guys think this is beatable, seeing as we're all undoubtedly going to be playing against a lot of this in the next week or so.
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Typical strat that only works in SC2 imo. Protoss sits in his base, builds up big army and attacks... Very creative x_x
This would never work in BW, that's why SC2 isn't as good yet!
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On May 14 2012 18:05 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 17:52 syriuszonito wrote:
Looks like a rly late 2 base all in that is going to die vs muta play Why do people always post stuff like this? If you scout Mutalisks, DO SOMETHING ELSE. Is it that hard? There is no "one-size-fits-all" build.
Wow, just wow. You are going to scout mutalisks around 12 min, that means you have already invested too much in your 2 base "pressure" and you cant just switch to something else.
As for the guys saying "he stated that its a counter to 12 min roach max", Its rather unlikely that a zerg will blindly go for it. You scout no third from toss, see colossus tech with overseer and switch to mutas, whats the problem?
Sorry if I sound negative but I thought constructive criticism would be more beneficial to the thread than another "gj amazing build"
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If the zerg scouts the bay you make only 1 collosus and you can skip the upgrades aswell , if he goes mutalisk he will already have gone 160 if not 180 pop with roach ling to defend the push.
You have 2 choices
1) You push
2) You get a 3rd and deal with mutalisk with your 3-2 stalkers vs his 0-0 mutalisk and you have your 4-5 immortlas and 1 collosus with cannons to defend your 3rd get 200/200 get 4rth base and push at 16-17 min
Since now only nerchio did mutalisk against me and i lost the game leaving him with some mutalisk alive and no bases.
the rest massed 200/200 roaches and infestors and lost badly.
I also lost some games vs bane drops but i also had bad unit control in that games.
http://drop.sc/179497 Loss vs Nerchio (Mutalisk)
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How is this any different from the standard Protoss 2-base progression, which is to get blink and robo tech? I just don't get it. I mean, I see that the nexus/forge/gate are going down at 18, but I don't really see much deviation besides that. And how is this specifically anti-Stephano-style? What am I missing? The second Forge?
I'm not slandering the player or the build, but I cannot see what is distinctive about this build order, all the way through the point where Blink and a Robo Bay are slammed down.
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On May 14 2012 20:10 ELYSiUMlol wrote:
In response to the build, how well do mutas ACTUALLY do against this? People seem to be getting offended that mutas are being suggested as a response but I feel like you could honestly just counter attack him to death and hide a few expos, especially if you got drop tech to ferry your units around. Obviously you can scout the mutas and make the decision to alter your build but even then I feel like once you go 2 base colossus with this, if you decide to take a third you'd be behind
I don't think relying on a base trade is practical. His force will be so far superior to yours that he can even leave quite a bit of it to defend. And with most natural layouts the combination of good building placement+force fields will make it difficult to break in. The Stephano build really can't transition to mutas anyway. By the time you know what's coming you'll have 4 gases instead of the 6 you need and virtually no gas banked.
The only way zerg can stop this is with infestor/corruptor/spine defense.
On May 14 2012 20:17 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 18:05 Sated wrote:On May 14 2012 17:52 syriuszonito wrote:
Looks like a rly late 2 base all in that is going to die vs muta play Why do people always post stuff like this? If you scout Mutalisks, DO SOMETHING ELSE. Is it that hard? There is no "one-size-fits-all" build. Wow, just wow. You are going to scout mutalisks around 12 min, that means you have already invested too much in your 2 base "pressure" and you cant just switch to something else.
It's not that simple at all. The zerg is using a build which transitions horribly into mutalisks for reasons that I've already mentioned.
As for the guys saying "he stated that its a counter to 12 min roach max", Its rather unlikely that a zerg will blindly go for it. You scout no third from toss, see colossus tech with overseer and switch to mutas, whats the problem?
I'm talking about Stephano's build altogether, not actually maxing blindly.
On May 14 2012 20:38 ineversmile wrote:
How is this any different from the standard Protoss 2-base progression, which is to get blink and robo tech? I just don't get it. I mean, I see that the nexus/forge/gate are going down at 18, but I don't really see much deviation besides that. And how is this specifically anti-Stephano-style? What am I missing? The second Forge?
I'm not slandering the player or the build, but I cannot see what is distinctive about this build order, all the way through the point where Blink and a Robo Bay are slammed down.
The fact that you're not taking a third and yet wait so long to push is what really makes it unique.
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On May 14 2012 20:30 TheMista wrote:If the zerg scouts the bay you make only 1 collosus and you can skip the upgrades aswell , if he goes mutalisk he will already have gone 160 if not 180 pop with roach ling to defend the push. You have 2 choices 1) You push 2) You get a 3rd and deal with mutalisk with your 3-2 stalkers vs his 0-0 mutalisk and you have your 4-5 immortlas and 1 collosus with cannons to defend your 3rd get 200/200 get 4rth base and push at 16-17 min Since now only nerchio did mutalisk against me and i lost the game leaving him with some mutalisk alive and no bases. the rest massed 200/200 roaches and infestors and lost badly. I also lost some games vs bane drops but i also had bad unit control in that games. http://drop.sc/179497 Loss vs Nerchio (Mutalisk)
1) I dont think a push with 1 colossus and gateway army is gonna work against a maxed zerg
2) Ofc you can but its going to be a delayed third and imo you are gonna end up behind
@Silvertine
this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it?
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Thanks for your post Mista! It s nice to see a strat shared by a proplayer
I will watch your replays closely!
Also, Grubby, if you have some strat to share, please do so! Keep in mind that a lot of people on TL are lurkers (like me) and appreciate the threads even without leaving a comment.
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On May 14 2012 20:49 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 20:30 TheMista wrote:If the zerg scouts the bay you make only 1 collosus and you can skip the upgrades aswell , if he goes mutalisk he will already have gone 160 if not 180 pop with roach ling to defend the push. You have 2 choices 1) You push 2) You get a 3rd and deal with mutalisk with your 3-2 stalkers vs his 0-0 mutalisk and you have your 4-5 immortlas and 1 collosus with cannons to defend your 3rd get 200/200 get 4rth base and push at 16-17 min Since now only nerchio did mutalisk against me and i lost the game leaving him with some mutalisk alive and no bases. the rest massed 200/200 roaches and infestors and lost badly. I also lost some games vs bane drops but i also had bad unit control in that games. http://drop.sc/179497 Loss vs Nerchio (Mutalisk) 1) I dont think a push with 1 colossus and gateway army is gonna work against a maxed zerg 2) Ofc you can but its going to be a delayed third and imo you are gonna end up behind @Silvertine this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it?
You're wrong, watch the replays, the build is good. Good thing to have in a BoX.
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this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it?
I'm not questioning the build, it's brilliant. It's the fact that you want to transition to mutas from it that's crazy. Going mutas is ideal off of 2 bases, you only have one area to defend with spines(as this is the only possible way to defend going mutas) and you can bank up gas since you're not using it on roaches to defend. When you attempt going mutas off of 3 base it gets very messy. You will be on 4 gases instead of 6 and absolutely all of it with have gone into upgrades and the mass of roaches you've begun building up. So you have no gas banked and you have to wait for 2 geysers to finish to really start harvesting the amount you need.
You should have a decent amount of 0-0 mutas(maybe 16), roaches, lings, and spines against his deathball with 3-2 upgrades. There's no question that it will be absolutely demolished in a direct battle and remaxing won't even be relevant because he'll survive with 170+ food. The only option you would have is base trading and I don't think that's very practical for reasons I gave earlier.
You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes.
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you dont have an observer with the army? if you push and he has burrow that would be sad. Its a strong 2 base all in but there is no reason a good zerg should lose agaisnt this if he goes roaches. Stephano made a ton of zerglings blindly, that was kind of unfortunate for him, but that replay is not stephano style. I watched another replay on shakuras, where the zerg just build corrupters and spines. he lost the game barely but thats because he controlled his army not good enough. What if a zerg has 4 bases and just builds spines all over the place and his army goes for base trade? the zerg army with corrupters can defend your attack with spines. Not saying you cant win with this build but the titel says anti stephano style but its just a 2 base all in, there is no transition or lets say you are not doing this build because he made so many roaches, but because you saw 3 base. you are commiting to this build blindly after builduing the second forge and robo bay, but then your warp prism is just on the way and so you are not sure if the zerg goes for roaches.
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Thank you for the build, Mista. I may play Zerg, but it's cool to see the metagame expand in different directions. Also, I know I've gotta try as hard as hell to actually scout what the P is doing now.
What do you consider the best Zerg comp to beat your P comp? A few infestors with banelings drops? Infestors and corruptors? Pure burrowed roach slowing you down from the door of your base to until you reach the Zerg 3rd?
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On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:
You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes.
You are correct about hte resoponce, but! this build is a ersponce to defined style. infestor-corrupter is good, but after scouting it, i would mostly go for a 3rd, and push later with templar-tech.
Grubby is absolutely right, there is no one-build-fits-all, It's a matter of understanding and scouting.
Fast 3 hatch - > scout - > roach -> prepare this buld -> scout -> more roach -> execute build
Fast 3 hatch - > scout - > roach -> prepare this buld -> scout -> infestor + spire -> transition into else
And to people saying that stephano made little roach - > 4 colossi with 3 attack and descent micro can vaporize insane amount of roaches, they don't counter this. (well maybe if you make 300/200 of them =))
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On May 14 2012 21:05 gitarrojoe wrote:
you dont have an observer with the army? if you push and he has burrow that would be sad.
He probably won't have tunneling claws and if you scout it you can just add an observer afterwards. I don't even see how unburrow could possibly help against that deathball. The whole idea is to defend behind the spines using fungals+corruptors. Unburrowing a ton of roaches right onto his army isn't going to do anything.
Its a strong 2 base all in but there is no reason a good zerg should lose agaisnt this if he goes roaches.
Good zergs lose to this constantly.
Stephano made a ton of zerglings blindly, that was kind of unfortunate for him, but that replay is not stephano style
People keep pointing this out but roaches aren't even what you aim for against this composition. They will be taking up a significant amount of food(at a time when you will be maxed) and gas and won't be that useful. You're just trying to hold your ground with spines/fungals and then you have the corruptors to snipe colossi when they try to siege the spines. Any roaches that cross the line will just get obliterated so they aren't that relevant.
What if a zerg has 4 bases and just builds spines all over the place and his army goes for base trade?
That could be told to a zerg in virtually any situation. Just out mine him the opponent, get tons of spines and base trade if he attacks. Unfortunately it's not that simple.
you are commiting to this build blindly after builduing the second forge and robo bay, but then your warp prism is just on the way and so you are not sure if the zerg goes for roaches.
Zerg can not just blindly go three bases without roaches. Any sort of warp gate timing would murder it.
On May 14 2012 21:13 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:
You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes.
You are correct about hte resoponce, but! this build is a ersponce to defined style
It's the normal transition from Stephano's build when you don't see a third. So I am responding to the defined style being discussed.
infestor-corrupter is good, but after scouting it, i would mostly go for a 3rd, and push later with templar-tech.
There's no way you could do that off of this build but in general that's a logical reaction.
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On May 14 2012 20:49 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 20:30 TheMista wrote:If the zerg scouts the bay you make only 1 collosus and you can skip the upgrades aswell , if he goes mutalisk he will already have gone 160 if not 180 pop with roach ling to defend the push. You have 2 choices 1) You push 2) You get a 3rd and deal with mutalisk with your 3-2 stalkers vs his 0-0 mutalisk and you have your 4-5 immortlas and 1 collosus with cannons to defend your 3rd get 200/200 get 4rth base and push at 16-17 min Since now only nerchio did mutalisk against me and i lost the game leaving him with some mutalisk alive and no bases. the rest massed 200/200 roaches and infestors and lost badly. I also lost some games vs bane drops but i also had bad unit control in that games. http://drop.sc/179497 Loss vs Nerchio (Mutalisk) 1) I dont think a push with 1 colossus and gateway army is gonna work against a maxed zerg 2) Ofc you can but its going to be a delayed third and imo you are gonna end up behind @Silvertine this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it?
Did you even watch the replays?
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On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it? I'm not questioning the build, it's brilliant. It's the fact that you want to transition to mutas from it that's crazy. Going mutas is ideal off of 2 bases, you only have one area to defend with spines(as this is the only possible way to defend going mutas) and you can bank up gas since you're not using it on roaches to defend. When you attempt going mutas off of 3 base it gets very messy. You will be on 4 gases instead of 6 and absolutely all of it with have gone into upgrades and the mass of roaches you've begun building up. So you have no gas banked and you have to wait for 2 geysers to finish to really start harvesting the amount you need. You should have a decent amount of 0-0 mutas(maybe 16), roaches, lings, and spines against his deathball with 3-2 upgrades. There's no question that it will be absolutely demolished in a direct battle and remaxing won't even be relevant because he'll survive with 170+ food. The only option you would have is base trading and I don't think that's very practical for reasons I gave earlier. You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes.
Why would I need to commit to mass roaches? I think its safe to assume that you are going to get the overseer scout at 10 min. Once you see the robo bay you can instantly take extra 2 gases, drone to the optimal number and cut the roach production. Till 14:30 you are gonna be maxed with more than 20 1-0 mutas, lings and few roaches. While I am not sure if you can win a direct fight with some spines behind, basetrade scenario looks like an easy win.
@Douillos
yes did watch the one vs nerchio and he basically did what I just said, worked fine?
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On May 14 2012 21:28 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it? I'm not questioning the build, it's brilliant. It's the fact that you want to transition to mutas from it that's crazy. Going mutas is ideal off of 2 bases, you only have one area to defend with spines(as this is the only possible way to defend going mutas) and you can bank up gas since you're not using it on roaches to defend. When you attempt going mutas off of 3 base it gets very messy. You will be on 4 gases instead of 6 and absolutely all of it with have gone into upgrades and the mass of roaches you've begun building up. So you have no gas banked and you have to wait for 2 geysers to finish to really start harvesting the amount you need. You should have a decent amount of 0-0 mutas(maybe 16), roaches, lings, and spines against his deathball with 3-2 upgrades. There's no question that it will be absolutely demolished in a direct battle and remaxing won't even be relevant because he'll survive with 170+ food. The only option you would have is base trading and I don't think that's very practical for reasons I gave earlier. You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes. Why would I need to commit to mass roaches?
At that point you have already begun to mass roaches, probably to about 140 food at least. They are needed in order to build up to the max 12 minute push and also to defend vs a wide variety of earlier protoss timings.
I think its safe to assume that you are going to get the overseer scout at 10 min. Once you see the robo bay you can instantly take extra 2 gases, drone to the optimal number and cut the roach production. Till 14:30 you are gonna be maxed with more than 20 1-0 mutas, lings and few roaches. While I am not sure if you can win a direct fight with some spines behind, basetrade scenario looks like an easy win.
20 1-0 mutas at 14:30 when you're totally gas starved and only just began harvesting 6 gas at around 11 min? I don't think so. And again, it doesn't matter because any amount of mutas is going to get ravaged by a 3-2 deathball. This leaves you only the option of base trading which isn't practical for reasons I've already given.
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Looks interesting... Gonna try it for sure
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On May 14 2012 21:41 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 21:28 syriuszonito wrote:On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it? I'm not questioning the build, it's brilliant. It's the fact that you want to transition to mutas from it that's crazy. Going mutas is ideal off of 2 bases, you only have one area to defend with spines(as this is the only possible way to defend going mutas) and you can bank up gas since you're not using it on roaches to defend. When you attempt going mutas off of 3 base it gets very messy. You will be on 4 gases instead of 6 and absolutely all of it with have gone into upgrades and the mass of roaches you've begun building up. So you have no gas banked and you have to wait for 2 geysers to finish to really start harvesting the amount you need. You should have a decent amount of 0-0 mutas(maybe 16), roaches, lings, and spines against his deathball with 3-2 upgrades. There's no question that it will be absolutely demolished in a direct battle and remaxing won't even be relevant because he'll survive with 170+ food. The only option you would have is base trading and I don't think that's very practical for reasons I gave earlier. You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes. Why would I need to commit to mass roaches? At that point you have already begun to mass roaches, probably to about 140 food at least. They are needed in order to build up to the max 12 minute push and also to defend vs a wide variety of earlier protoss timings. Show nested quote +I think its safe to assume that you are going to get the overseer scout at 10 min. Once you see the robo bay you can instantly take extra 2 gases, drone to the optimal number and cut the roach production. Till 14:30 you are gonna be maxed with more than 20 1-0 mutas, lings and few roaches. While I am not sure if you can win a direct fight with some spines behind, basetrade scenario looks like an easy win. 20 1-0 mutas at 14:30 when you're totally gas starved and only just began harvesting 6 gas at around 11 min? I don't think so. And again, it doesn't matter because any amount of mutas is going to get ravaged by a 3-2 deathball. This leaves you only the option of base trading which isn't practical for reasons I've already given.
Did you watch the replay vs nerchio?
-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min
-You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas
-I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario
I advise you to watch the replay vs nerchio, he counters the build pretty damn good (ends up with 30+ mutas before attack comes to his base, there is no way toss can split his army to fight that many mutas with ling support)
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-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min
That's totally standard in the build.
-You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas
You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic.
I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario
How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous.
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On May 14 2012 22:08 Silvertine wrote:That's totally standard in the build. Show nested quote +-You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic. How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous.
Sorry to say but you are completely wrong in every point you made, test it in a custom game if you are not able to see it otherwise.
User was warned for this post
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On May 14 2012 22:21 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:08 Silvertine wrote:-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min That's totally standard in the build. -You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic. I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous. Sorry to say but you are completely wrong in every point you made, test it in a custom game if you are not able to see it otherwise.
You haven't tested it, you're just making baseless assumptions.
I'll take it you just conceded all the other points. It doesn't seem like you really have any substantive argument against this particular build. Anyone can come into the thread and simply go "Oh he went colossi? OK go mutas and base trade". It's bronze league logic that does nothing to further the discussion.
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the zerg army, mass roach witch corrupter +queens/spines can hold this push! no infestors, and base trade is practical because zerg just needs to kill pylons and nexus to dmg economy so hard he can just turn around and kill the army if it pushes into the spines. if protoss splitts the army correctly zerg hast to splitt aswelll, but it is still managable. i dont think this is a counter to stephanos build, its just an option that can work if not scoutet. and that is stephanos thing, to not scout, thats gonna bite him in this situation. however the build stephano plays can transition into a decent defending position against this all in.
to point out why i think the zerg army can hold. one of the replays is on shakuras and the zerg playes with spines and corrupters. although he loses a lot of units while running around on the map he is able to nearly defend the push. if u want the corrupters they kill 1 collosus and then turn away, big mismicro!. if the zerg player wouldve flanked from the third and natural with spines and corrupter support he couldve crushed the attacked. another factor agaisnt the zerg, was the fact he just took a 4th base instead of make more spines/drones early on.
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On May 14 2012 22:26 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:21 syriuszonito wrote:On May 14 2012 22:08 Silvertine wrote:-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min That's totally standard in the build. -You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic. I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous. Sorry to say but you are completely wrong in every point you made, test it in a custom game if you are not able to see it otherwise. You haven't tested it, you're just making baseless assumptions. I'll take it you just conceded all the other points. It doesn't seem like you really have any substantive argument against this particular build. Anyone can come into the thread and simply go "Oh he went colossi? OK go mutas and base trade". It's bronze league logic that does nothing to further the discussion.
I dont need to do testings to know that 140+ food at 10:00 is an unrealistic scenario and that by collecting 6 gases for 4 mins you get enough to build a spire, weapon upgrade and 20+ mutas. I think in previous posts I exaplained why I think this build is not the best one, hell, you even got a replay vs nerchio to proove it. Dunno about your league but its you who looks closer to bronze.
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On May 14 2012 18:48 Odal wrote:
If you accidentally put too much into a roach based army earlier in the game, you simply can't gather enough resources to stop it afterwards. It's incredibly frustrating. ZvP is so boring.
What do you expect Protoss players to do? If you max out on Tier 1 units with the intention of denying a third base, there are two natural counters, either find a way to go the third base up earlier or later so it is safe vs the max Tier 1 push or sit on two bases and build a nasty deathball and all-in because your opponent invested so much in maxing out on early game units.
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On May 14 2012 22:33 gitarrojoe wrote:
the zerg army, mass roach witch corrupter +queens/spines can hold this push! no infestors
That's completely ridiculous. What are you basing that off of?
and base trade is practical because zerg just needs to kill pylons and nexus to dmg economy so hard he can just turn around and kill the army if it pushes into the spines
Of course, that would be the aim in any base trade scenario. The problem is getting to the nexus. And base trading is going to be 100x more difficult for you since you chose roaches instead of lings/muta to do it with. It's far more difficult to have just roaches out on the map waiting to counter because of their inferior mobility. Any significant amount would be at risk to the protoss simply chasing them down with blink+colossi support.
Again, basically any situation with a zerg you can say "well just base trade". It isn't that simple in practice and you have to actually explain why you think it would work in a specific situation.
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On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it? I'm not questioning the build, it's brilliant. It's the fact that you want to transition to mutas from it that's crazy. Going mutas is ideal off of 2 bases, you only have one area to defend with spines(as this is the only possible way to defend going mutas) and you can bank up gas since you're not using it on roaches to defend. When you attempt going mutas off of 3 base it gets very messy. You will be on 4 gases instead of 6 and absolutely all of it with have gone into upgrades and the mass of roaches you've begun building up. So you have no gas banked and you have to wait for 2 geysers to finish to really start harvesting the amount you need. You should have a decent amount of 0-0 mutas(maybe 16), roaches, lings, and spines against his deathball with 3-2 upgrades. There's no question that it will be absolutely demolished in a direct battle and remaxing won't even be relevant because he'll survive with 170+ food. The only option you would have is base trading and I don't think that's very practical for reasons I gave earlier. You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes.
You dont seem to understand what you are writing about. Muta strenght is exactly that you wont have to engage his deathball 3-2. Stephano style opening is so good becouse it is flexible and capable on switching to mass muta. The whole gas you invest into roach tech is 100 (for +1) and 100 for speed (which you can actually cut but its damn risky unless you know he is doing deathball turtle thing). You are at that point at 3 bases and have almost perfect drone saturation. Infestor corruptor + spines is propably even more gas intense then muta switch.
Now about the actualy build - it seems very strong, if its not identified correctly. It also seems to not be so good on bigger maps with loads of surface area, couse with that ammount of gas invested into tech + robo tech you wont seem to have reasonable ammount of sentries unless you want to delay your push even more.
Also i think roach/bane (with either drops or FEW infestor's support) or that early 3 base baneling bust would be quite strong versus this considering how much you invest in early tech.
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On May 14 2012 22:42 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:33 gitarrojoe wrote:
the zerg army, mass roach witch corrupter +queens/spines can hold this push! no infestors That's completely ridiculous. What are you basing that off of? Show nested quote +and base trade is practical because zerg just needs to kill pylons and nexus to dmg economy so hard he can just turn around and kill the army if it pushes into the spines Of course, that would be the aim in any base trade scenario. The problem is getting to the nexus. And base trading is going to be 100x more difficult for you since you chose roaches instead of lings/muta to do it with. It's far more difficult to have just roaches out on the map waiting to counter because of their inferior mobility. Any significant amount would be at risk to the protoss simply chasing them down with blink+colossi support. Again, basically any situation with a zerg you can say "well just base trade". It isn't that simple in practice and you have to actually explain why you think it would work in a specific situation.
Okay so you are complaining about people making false assumptions while you're just doing the same...
as i mentioned one replay shows how strong roach corrupter with spines can be.
base trade is a tough spot for both players, so lets say you are in a BoX and you want to take a game with this style, but zerg players figured out that a base trade can still lead to a win. the protoss player is not in the comanding position anymore and his all in stategy has a lower percentage (you need to be lucky) to suceed. thats a reason to not all in!
a base trade could work if the protoss has no observer to watch map and if he doesnt splitt his army, so zerg can build up a number of spine crawlers. if protoss goes for the main, just make them at the third. now if the zerg player reads the build correctly he will already have spines up at both ramps or both expansions. u can see that in the replay. again there is no observer, so if protoss splitts his army some roaches could attack a part of the army
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Super excited to study this - ive been experimenting with two base robo/immortal all ins again since roach style has become so popular. Wonder when zergs will switch back to muta oO
Thanks for this guide Mista!
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Would you mind adding the approximate timings to the elements in your build order. Either in supply count or game time. Preferably game time.
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Looks A+ man, will be giving this a try.
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United States8476 Posts
Thanks for the build, Mista! It's always nice to have pros contributing to the forums.
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On May 14 2012 22:36 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:26 Silvertine wrote:On May 14 2012 22:21 syriuszonito wrote:On May 14 2012 22:08 Silvertine wrote:-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min That's totally standard in the build. You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic. I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous. Sorry to say but you are completely wrong in every point you made, test it in a custom game if you are not able to see it otherwise. You haven't tested it, you're just making baseless assumptions. I'll take it you just conceded all the other points. It doesn't seem like you really have any substantive argument against this particular build. Anyone can come into the thread and simply go "Oh he went colossi? OK go mutas and base trade". It's bronze league logic that does nothing to further the discussion. I dont need to do testings to know that 140+ food at 10:00 is an unrealistic scenario
It isn't at all and that's a fact. My macro isn't great and I do it constantly with this build. I see other Zerg players who stream get to 140 at 10 mins all the time. And the exact number isn't even important. The point was that you have to already be massing up roaches before you scout that this build is coming. Thus you are gas starved, making the muta transition very difficult.
and that by collecting 6 gases for 4 mins you get enough to build a spire, weapon upgrade and 20+ mutas.
No, and it isn't 4 minutes. Again, you're making the very silly assumption that you will immediately scout the robo bay with your overseer. Then even if you do you won't have 200 gas instantly if you are macroing correctly. Then you add on the build time of the spire. Already that has you well past 11 minutes, and that's under the absolute perfect conditions. It could very well be that you don't get that scout off for much longer since he puts such emphasis on denying it with stalkers+placement.
I think in previous posts I exaplained why I think this build is not the best one, hell, you even got a replay vs nerchio to proove it.
It proves nothing you've said..
Dunno about your league but its you who looks closer to bronze.
GM, how about you?
On May 14 2012 22:48 Narw wrote:
You dont seem to understand what you are writing about.
You say, and then give absolutely no contradictions to anything I stated.
Also i think roach/bane (with either drops or FEW infestor's support) or that early 3 base baneling bust would be quite strong versus this considering how much you invest in early tech.
How does the 3 base baneling bust have anything to do with this? It's totally irrelevant, there's absolutely no specific weakness to it in this build.
On May 14 2012 22:52 gitarrojoe wrote:
as i mentioned one replay shows how strong roach corrupter with spines can be.
Why on earth would you not add infestors? Why would you be dumping all of your gas only into only corruptors when the standard choice of defense is both? You have to be able to defend the gate units as well, and that's why you need fungal.
base trade is a tough spot for both players, so lets say you are in a BoX and you want to take a game with this style, but zerg players figured out that a base trade can still lead to a win. the protoss player is not in the comanding position anymore and his all in stategy has a lower percentage (you need to be lucky) to suceed. thats a reason to not all in!
Again, completely baseless.
a base trade could work if the protoss has no observer to watch map and if he doesnt splitt his army, so zerg can build up a number of spine crawlers. if protoss goes for the main, just make them at the third. now if the zerg player reads the build correctly he will already have spines up at both ramps or both expansions. u can see that in the replay. again there is no observer, so if protoss splitts his army some roaches could attack a part of the army
OK, that's wonderful. I've yet to hear an actual explanation as to why base trading, in this particular situation, would be in the zerg's favor. We all understand the advantage of having tons of spines in a base trade. Unfortunately when the opponent has that many colossi and a 3/2 deathball, and you have no fungal, and plenty of your units are counterattacking, they are going to just absolutely walk through them.
Base trading is done either as a last resort or because there is a specific reason that it's advantageous for you. You can't just propose a strategy and then when people explain that it will get murdered say "Well just base trade".
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Can we please stop the useless namecalling and alpha(fe)male behaviour? Obviously this build has pros and cons but that doesnt mean you shpuld look down on those with different opinions.
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On May 14 2012 23:15 Aelonius wrote:
Can we please stop the useless namecalling and alpha(fe)male behaviour? Obviously this build has pros and cons but that doesnt mean you shpuld look down on those with different opinions.
It has nothing to do with being alpha, he challenged me to give my league and I did.
I'm not looking down upon them for having different opinions. What's annoying is that there have been maybe 4 GM players in this thread who have all said that it's a legitimate build. Then people, with no actual argument against it, feel perfectly comfortable shitting all over it.
I have to echo the sentiment of some of the earlier posts in this thread: When this is the type of ignorant reaction you get it dissuades pro players from posting great guides. And that's something that Grubby alluded to:
On May 14 2012 19:40 Grubby wrote:
I've seen little appreciation and much theory crafting (some of it probably correct, others wrong). I would be scared to post a build if the reception would be mostly negative.
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Why all the negativity, especially on the first pages? Considering the amount of complaints by protoss players about the Stephano style zergs in this forum I would have thought that a counter build by a pro would be welcomed with open arms.
I'm not saying you can't give constructive criticism or question things but let's say you are worried about the zerg reacting to it in some specific way: You can ASK how he would scout and handle it rather than basically saying that the build sucks because zerg can do this or that.
I don't play protoss outside of monobattles so I'm not going to pretend to understand everything but this guy obviously knows what he's talking about. Try to keep it positive so that he and others like him will keep contributing.
Of course there's no single build you can just execute blindly without your opponent having a chance to counter it and there shouldn't be unless you play terran. Haha ok that last part was a joke, I have a lot more problems in ZvP than ZvT! The Stephano ZvP style also requires you to scout and react to your opponent or you could die to a whole bunch of stuff as I'm living (dead?) proof of.
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Yes, we should have instead more GM US Tosses like you who tend to claim that Muta play from zerg is best from 2 bases, that Stephano build opening style is having trouble transitioning into mass Mutalisk play and while i wont have gas to do that Muta i can magicly find gas and time and safely just do corruptor infestor spine vs this(could you point me about what exactly will prevent toss from just you know, a moving a bit earlier seeing i have absolutly nothing on map and nothing to harras his main) . Yes dude, im absolutly clueless, i have no real arguments and you are shitting all over me.
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On May 14 2012 23:15 Aelonius wrote:
Can we please stop the useless namecalling and alpha(fe)male behaviour? Obviously this build has pros and cons but that doesnt mean you shpuld look down on those with different opinions.
i agree, sad that some people just cant discuss but tell others they are wrong in everything they say.
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On May 14 2012 23:14 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:36 syriuszonito wrote:On May 14 2012 22:26 Silvertine wrote:On May 14 2012 22:21 syriuszonito wrote:On May 14 2012 22:08 Silvertine wrote:-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min That's totally standard in the build. You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic. I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous. Sorry to say but you are completely wrong in every point you made, test it in a custom game if you are not able to see it otherwise. You haven't tested it, you're just making baseless assumptions. I'll take it you just conceded all the other points. It doesn't seem like you really have any substantive argument against this particular build. Anyone can come into the thread and simply go "Oh he went colossi? OK go mutas and base trade". It's bronze league logic that does nothing to further the discussion. I dont need to do testings to know that 140+ food at 10:00 is an unrealistic scenario It isn't at all and that's a fact. My macro isn't great and I do it constantly with this build. I see other Zerg players who stream get to 140 at 10 mins all the time. And the exact number isn't even important. The point was that you have to already be massing up roaches before you scout that this build is coming. Thus you are gas starved, making the muta transition very difficult. Show nested quote +and that by collecting 6 gases for 4 mins you get enough to build a spire, weapon upgrade and 20+ mutas. No, and it isn't 4 minutes. Again, you're making the very silly assumption that you will immediately scout the robo bay with your overseer. Then even if you do you won't have 200 gas instantly if you are macroing correctly. Then you add on the build time of the spire. Already that has you well past 11 minutes, and that's under the absolute perfect conditions. It could very well be that you don't get that scout off for much longer since he puts such emphasis on denying it with stalkers+placement. Show nested quote +I think in previous posts I exaplained why I think this build is not the best one, hell, you even got a replay vs nerchio to proove it. It proves nothing you've said.. GM, how about you? Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:48 Narw wrote:
You dont seem to understand what you are writing about. You say, and then give absolutely no contradictions to anything I stated. Show nested quote +Also i think roach/bane (with either drops or FEW infestor's support) or that early 3 base baneling bust would be quite strong versus this considering how much you invest in early tech. How does the 3 base baneling bust have anything to do with this? It's totally irrelevant, there's absolutely no specific weakness to it in this build. Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:52 gitarrojoe wrote:
as i mentioned one replay shows how strong roach corrupter with spines can be. Why on earth would you not add infestors? Why would you be dumping all of your gas only into only corruptors when the standard choice of defense is both? You have to be able to defend the gate units as well, and that's why you need fungal. Show nested quote +base trade is a tough spot for both players, so lets say you are in a BoX and you want to take a game with this style, but zerg players figured out that a base trade can still lead to a win. the protoss player is not in the comanding position anymore and his all in stategy has a lower percentage (you need to be lucky) to suceed. thats a reason to not all in! Again, completely baseless. Show nested quote +a base trade could work if the protoss has no observer to watch map and if he doesnt splitt his army, so zerg can build up a number of spine crawlers. if protoss goes for the main, just make them at the third. now if the zerg player reads the build correctly he will already have spines up at both ramps or both expansions. u can see that in the replay. again there is no observer, so if protoss splitts his army some roaches could attack a part of the army OK, that's wonderful. I've yet to hear an actual explanation as to why base trading, in this particular situation, would be in the zerg's favor. We all understand the advantage of having tons of spines in a base trade. Unfortunately when the opponent has that many colossi and a 3/2 deathball, and you have no fungal, and plenty of your units are counterattacking, they are going to just absolutely walk through them. Base trading is done either as a last resort or because there is a specific reason that it's advantageous for you. You can't just propose a strategy and then when people explain that it will get murdered say "Well just base trade".
Well that says a lot about US gm. I am 1.1k master eu
Back to topic, I even bothered to play a custom game. Result is 21 mutas with +1 at 14:30 after massing roaches till 10 min.
As someone already stated the whole point about getting mutas is getting mobility and a possiblity to basetrade. I dont know your reasons to be afraid of basetrading with huge muta flock and lings but thats one of the biggest benefits of this style
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On May 14 2012 23:39 syriuszonito wrote:
Back to topic, I even bothered to play a custom game. Result is 21 mutas with +1 at 14:30 after massing roaches till 10 min.
I'm positive that you didn't make nearly enough roaches, seeing as that you have had so much confusion over why they're even necessary. How many did you have?
I'll just repeat this yet again since you're so unwilling to respond to it: You're making the very silly assumption that you will immediately scout the robo bay with your overseer. Then even if you do you won't have 200 gas instantly if you are macroing correctly. Then you add on the build time of the spire. Already that has you well past 11 minutes, and that's under the absolute perfect conditions. It could very well be that you don't get that scout off for much longer since he puts such emphasis on denying it with stalkers+placement.
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On May 14 2012 23:39 syriuszonito wrote:
...
Just stop, please.
Nevermind what ladder rank you are, ranting isn't contributing this thread, nor it contibutes community overall.
So again, please stop.
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Protosses complain about Stephano style, guy beats the maestro (too soon?^^) himself, random guys bitch around his strat is bad?
WTF?
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Hehe funny I just downloaded the replays at drop.sc and also saw the game vs Nerchio you lost. But I think it´s a pretty solid build!
Greetings.
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Can't he just basetrade you with mutas and win easily?
Like the game vs nerchio, I don't think it's possible to go 2base all-in in that scenario.
User was warned for this post
Edit: O sorry mr.moderator, I didn't realize pointing out a critical weakness which the op doesn't talk about at all and loses to in one of his replays is considered bad posting. It's quite ridiculous that all these people are getting warned for posting criticism that is 100% correct, do you want us to just say he's right because he plays for empire?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 14 2012 23:44 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 23:39 syriuszonito wrote:
Back to topic, I even bothered to play a custom game. Result is 21 mutas with +1 at 14:30 after massing roaches till 10 min. I'm positive that you didn't make nearly enough roaches, seeing as that you have had so much confusion over why they're even necessary. How many did you have? I'll just repeat this yet again since you're so unwilling to respond to it: You're making the very silly assumption that you will immediately scout the robo bay with your overseer. Then even if you do you won't have 200 gas instantly if you are macroing correctly. Then you add on the build time of the spire. Already that has you well past 11 minutes, and that's under the absolute perfect conditions. It could very well be that you don't get that scout off for much longer since he puts such emphasis on denying it with stalkers+placement.
total of 36 roaches at 11 min (31 at 10:00)
The assumption to get the robo bay scout at 10 min is not silly, in fact you can get the overseer scout much earlier so please dont bitch about it. If you would bother to watch the rep you could notice that he does not have enough units to stop the scout.
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What if the crab people attack your base?
Seriously, the OP has said a hundred times that you will scout any such transition with your prism/obs and can prepare accordingly. You have a twilight council and +2/+2 on the way before the spire morphs and can just take a third.
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On May 14 2012 23:44 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 23:39 syriuszonito wrote:
Back to topic, I even bothered to play a custom game. Result is 21 mutas with +1 at 14:30 after massing roaches till 10 min. I'm positive that you didn't make nearly enough roaches, seeing as that you have had so much confusion over why they're even necessary. How many did you have? I'll just repeat this yet again since you're so unwilling to respond to it: You're making the very silly assumption that you will immediately scout the robo bay with your overseer. Then even if you do you won't have 200 gas instantly if you are macroing correctly. Then you add on the build time of the spire. Already that has you well past 11 minutes, and that's under the absolute perfect conditions. It could very well be that you don't get that scout off for much longer since he puts such emphasis on denying it with stalkers+placement.
Overseer can easily arrive at 9-9:30 mins mark and at that time there are 2-3 stakers on map, if not warp prism can be spotted also around 9. Poke at front can spot immortal and barely any gateway units. Those things add.
Just becouse someone writes build is based on denaying scouting dosnt means its optimized around denaying scouting.
Strong 2 base all in IF unscouted vs ground army, unless proved other way by replay of how this is dealing vs competent muta play i will assume this dosnt deal with muta play.
On May 15 2012 00:06 chestnutcc wrote:
What if the crab people attack your base?
Seriously, the OP has said a hundred times that you will scout any such transition with your prism/obs and can prepare accordingly. You have a twilight council and +2/+2 on the way before the spire morphs and can just take a third.
OP also wrote that only time someone (nerchio) did muta play vs him he lost.
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In the game vs stephano, it wasn't really the mass upgrade roach play people are complaining about. he had 150 zerglings, and no ranged attack upgrades. grats on beating him, but none of the games I've watched address the maxed roach army.
edti: watched vortx game, features mass roach. Seems like your advantage is in upgrades. None of these zergs have been past 1/1 when you hit. is this by design or a failing on their part?
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On May 14 2012 20:30 TheMista wrote:If the zerg scouts the bay you make only 1 collosus and you can skip the upgrades aswell , if he goes mutalisk he will already have gone 160 if not 180 pop with roach ling to defend the push. You have 2 choices 1) You push 2) You get a 3rd and deal with mutalisk with your 3-2 stalkers vs his 0-0 mutalisk and you have your 4-5 immortlas and 1 collosus with cannons to defend your 3rd get 200/200 get 4rth base and push at 16-17 min Since now only nerchio did mutalisk against me and i lost the game leaving him with some mutalisk alive and no bases. the rest massed 200/200 roaches and infestors and lost badly. I also lost some games vs bane drops but i also had bad unit control in that games. http://drop.sc/179497 Loss vs Nerchio (Mutalisk)
This is what the OP wrote. He didn't say he lost to mutas, he said the one time someone went mutas against him, it happened to be a loss. He also provides suggestions.
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In this thread, pro-gamer, who has beaten stephano with his build comes and shares it with TL. Instead of any resident gosus debating the merits of the build one way or the other, random scrubs who aren't even masters tell him its a dumb build without any replays or trying it themselves. what in the flying fuck. this is why no one half decent even bothers to post here anymore.
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Not my style of play but thanks a lot for sharing, Mista
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On May 15 2012 00:42 m3rciless wrote:
In this thread, pro-gamer, who has beaten stephano with his build comes and shares it with TL. Instead of any resident gosus debating the merits of the build one way or the other, random scrubs who aren't even masters tell him its a dumb build without any replays or trying it themselves. what in the flying fuck. this is why no one half decent even bothers to post here anymore.
+20
User was warned for this post
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I don't get how this is gonna get owned by mutas, you have freakin' 10 gates that can produce 2-2 and soon 3-2 blink stalkers. If you see mass muta, cut the immortals?
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In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty.
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On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty.
this. the guide is illogical and spreads misinformation.
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That game vs Stephano was not him playing normally as he was just doing what fans wanted. He took a really late 4th and was really slow on his tech.
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Lol I watched your game against stephano where you did this build when you talked about it on Feasts stream. Was a nice play and I'm suprised stephano was kind of BM about it O.o. And to those of you complaint it's not viable he only says the build is good against Stephanos roach/ling build not mutas or anything else so your better off reading what he has said the build can possibly work against. Not other builds like mutas that he lost against on ladder because maybe he was just testing to see how it would fair against it. Koreans do the same thing they'll have their practice partner run the same build until they can find every flaw to beat it. Mista is doing the opposite running the same build and just letting it play out to see its weeknesses. Ladder is how people experiment which is why barcodes showed up (irrelevant sorry). So don't bash Mista for going on ladder and experimenting like everyone to try and get more than 1 build that will beat Stephanos style.
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On May 15 2012 00:42 m3rciless wrote:
In this thread, pro-gamer, who has beaten stephano with his build comes and shares it with TL. Instead of any resident gosus debating the merits of the build one way or the other, random scrubs who aren't even masters tell him its a dumb build without any replays or trying it themselves. what in the flying fuck. this is why no one half decent even bothers to post here anymore.
Amen brother!
On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
If the zerg responds as it is customary theese days, with either fast hive or a max roach/infestor army, then he is dead. The only proper response is mutas and going for spine walls and preparing for a basetrade.
Therefore the build works really good sometimes and can fail at other times. What is different with OP's build is the really good upgrades and the warp prism harassment that allows for complete scouting information.
Go watch the replays and see that the prism could have scouted 4gas at 8min and 6gas at 9:30. This should make you cancel the build and take a third. You are going to abort 2base play by 9:30. It is not too late by any means. You have immortals and excellently upgraded stalkers that can fight when the mutas arrive. In the case you have aborted at 8min then you don't know if it is muta or infestor but at 9:15 the spire is planted and you should be able to tell your third will be safe from a max roach push.
So, to sum up, while I absolutely despise the style of play OP suggests, I can see why the build works. I can see why it is a valid choice of a build, not a go-to build for every game. Do the world a favour and don't start bashing on cannon rushing or proxy rax because you can be scouted and loose the game. Every build serves it's purpose.
And this particular one has the purpose of killing a 12min max, a fast hive, a late spire, a ling based defense, a classic roach-hydra, pretty much everything a zerg normally does. It does not do well vs muta/ling or fast spire with infestor/spine/corruptor. It is not a classic deathball build in the sense you can scout and abort (take a 3rd) if there is a spire (or just too many geysers taken).
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I've been having so much trouble with PvZ lately, thanks for this build!
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On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty.
The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play.
The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do.
tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against.
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In the game against Nerchio on Daybreak, what do you think you couldve done better? Or is his reaction to your play the counter/correct choice?
In the cases when the zerg goes muta do you think it would be better to add archon/ht (as you already have the twilight council) and cut back colossus/immortals?
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Such ingratitude toward a player who is better than 99.875% of the players on TL who decided to come on to the Strategy forum and share his thoughts. Disagreement is fine; to pretend like Mista is a random diamond player whose thoughts and builds have no merit is beyond absurd.
As a Z player, I love reading these threads to see what Ps might do to counter roach-heavy style. Fascinating. Thanks Mista and please don't mind the peanut gallery.
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On May 15 2012 01:33 IPA wrote:
Such ingratitude toward a player who is better than 99.875% of the players on TL who decided to come on to the Strategy forum and share his thoughts. Disagreement is fine; to pretend like Mista is a random diamond player whose thoughts and builds have no merit is beyond absurd.
As a Z player, I love reading these threads to see what Ps might do to counter roach-heavy style. Fascinating. Thanks Mista and please don't mind the peanut gallery.
judging from the build order making 10 gates robo sitting on 2base for 14:30 then attacking and calls it mindgames he kind of sounds like a diamond player
even rotterdams 2base 1stargate 2 robo build makes more sense than this where you force hydras with the stargate and if he goes spire tech instead you focus on only immortals
10gateways are actually not needed for 2base, neither is 56 probes. when koreans 2base its almost always max 16+16+12 ~44 workers. they also always would attack before zerg gets maxed out and 3k in the bank
sounds like a build from 2010
cut down gates to a number of 6~7 attack with 2 colossus and range and 1 warp prism and dont go over 44 workers and it seems just better in every way.
the other one is with 3 immortals
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the forsen replay has a funny dialogue though
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On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 01:33 IPA wrote:
Such ingratitude toward a player who is better than 99.875% of the players on TL who decided to come on to the Strategy forum and share his thoughts. Disagreement is fine; to pretend like Mista is a random diamond player whose thoughts and builds have no merit is beyond absurd.
As a Z player, I love reading these threads to see what Ps might do to counter roach-heavy style. Fascinating. Thanks Mista and please don't mind the peanut gallery. judging from the build order making 10 gates robo sitting on 2base for 14:30 then attacking and calls it mindgames he kind of sounds like a diamond player even rotterdams 2base 1stargate 2 robo build makes more sense than this where you force hydras with the stargate and if he goes spire tech instead you focus on only immortals 10gateways are actually not needed for 2base, neither is 56 probes. when koreans 2base its almost always max 16+16+12 ~44 workers. they also always would attack before zerg gets maxed out and 3k in the bank sounds like a build from 2010 cut down gates to a number of 6~7 attack with 2 colossus and range and 1 warp prism and dont go over 44 workers and it seems just better in every way. the other one is with 3 immortals
There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. This is much better against that than a fast 2 base allin. If you're going to do a late attack, it would be really silly to stay on 44 probes the whole time, so he gets more, which allows him to support more gateways. 10 is a bit much, but I guess since you are bound to miss some warp ins it's okay.
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On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against.
Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy.
Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true.
There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling.
You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go.
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On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote:Show nested quote +There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go.
This build is an allin, and all allins rely on your opponent playing badly and responding incorrectly. Nobody has said this is a stable build you can use 5 times in a row vs the same opponent, because that's not the case, it's a nice build for a BoX that abuses the stuff a lot of Zergs do nowadays.
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On May 15 2012 02:00 aintthatfunny wrote:
There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. This is much better against that than a fast 2 base allin. If you're going to do a late attack, it would be really silly to stay on 44 probes the whole time, so he gets more, which allows him to support more gateways. 10 is a bit much, but I guess since you are bound to miss some warp ins it's okay.
You cannot be serious.... what good is going beyond 44 probes on 2 bases without an intention of taking a 3rd?
10 gates + 3/2 ups + robo/bay/range on 2 bases is just not realistic. You can barely support 8 gates with a gateway all in, and now we want to add in robo with collosi, and 3/2 ups + 2 more gates. I think morrow said it best a few posts ago, might as well just go for the old collosi timing push with a more refined build. Doesn't mean you cannot incorporate warp prism for the "mind games". But that much production with 56 probes on 2 bases is just....
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On May 14 2012 19:40 Grubby wrote:
(In my opinion), there is nothing wrong with a guy who has actual experience playing Europe's GM Zergs, who posts a build that has worked on occasion (even if it's only on occasion!), who tries to offer general help. It's easy to poke holes in builds or call it bad because of your opinion of how the game should be played, but also irrelevant to actual results. Sure, this is not an all-purpose build, but then again no build is. I've seen little appreciation and much theory crafting (some of it probably correct, others wrong). I would be scared to post a build if the reception would be mostly negative.
If someone posted a Diamond build without replays, then okay I get it. But he's beaten Stephano. Sure, it's only ladder, but it's something. I want to be one element of grateful reception at least. Thanks for posting this thread Mista ^^
Glad to read this after all the stupid low leagues, smurf trying to show his builds, and haters, from page 1 and 2.
Nice build, and good guide/read. Keep it up ^^
Edit.: I just finished reading the whole thread. I can't believe the level of hate i read. The build have flaws? Sure.
But if Z plays perfect, will always win ZvP cose from 8:00 and on, Z have much more production, eco and army without to even have to learn several builds, multi task harass or anything.
ALL 2 BASE P BUILDS HAVE SOLID COUNTERS FROM Z. So as a 2 base build among many others in the P arsenal, is a good, exotic option (and countereable)
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United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote:On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. Show nested quote +There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go.
Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work.
This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas.
Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm).
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On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 01:33 IPA wrote:
Such ingratitude toward a player who is better than 99.875% of the players on TL who decided to come on to the Strategy forum and share his thoughts. Disagreement is fine; to pretend like Mista is a random diamond player whose thoughts and builds have no merit is beyond absurd.
As a Z player, I love reading these threads to see what Ps might do to counter roach-heavy style. Fascinating. Thanks Mista and please don't mind the peanut gallery. judging from the build order making 10 gates robo sitting on 2base for 14:30 then attacking and calls it mindgames he kind of sounds like a diamond player even rotterdams 2base 1stargate 2 robo build makes more sense than this where you force hydras with the stargate and if he goes spire tech instead you focus on only immortals 10gateways are actually not needed for 2base, neither is 56 probes. when koreans 2base its almost always max 16+16+12 ~44 workers. they also always would attack before zerg gets maxed out and 3k in the bank sounds like a build from 2010
The reason you are allowed to spill empty criticism without mod action is because you have the authority bought by competitive results. It's not really about the truth of the statements one way or the other, it's the self-righteous presentation with no pretense at a reasoned argument. If you want to drop by and act that way, people will say "that's Morrow, he must have a point" and they'd be at least half right. If random scrub says exactly the same thing, we have nothing to go on except his point blank contradictions, which are meaningless, and obviously that is useless posting at best, possibly negative posting if it scares away high level posters. We assume posts from high level players have value; again this seems like a simplification fit for people who can't analyze for themselves.
On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:cut down gates to a number of 6~7 attack with 2 colossus and range and 1 warp prism and dont go over 44 workers and it seems just better in every way.
the other one is with 3 immortals
If the assumption is that the zerg player will be making lings and roaches anyway, there is no reason to move out with a flimsy army that won't accomplish anything specifically other than "hope I win or do enough damage that it was worth it". If you wait for a big ball of units (including some immortals) you will be able to kill zerg units so much more cost effectively, and more importantly preserving your unit count. Anyway the specific comparison doesn't matter, OP build is completely different idea than an asap 2 base timing.
@grubby and silvertine and monk (and some others): pleasure to read your posts
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Thanks for all the comments guys good/bad i really apprieciete them
I will try to play this build a lot in ladder or in customs but unfortunately i get 1/6 games vs zerg in ladder.
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even though i think my early 3. in pvz is better than the build you recommend i want to thank you for trying to help us
i really appreciate that a pro is posting here
i think i will try to do a guide for my pvz in about 2 weeks
but nice that you try to help, don t stop to update this and post new ones
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On May 15 2012 02:49 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote:On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote:On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work. This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas. Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm).
What exactly you are arguing here about? Semantics? Stephano style is using 3 hatches to get get eco lead, roach warren and evo to be safe and then he used to transition where ever he wanted. Be it spire play/double spire play, max out on roaches or tons other transitions. This style was popularized in western scene by him so i consider it Stephano style (i guess DRG was doing that in korea as similar time).
The core stays - ability to get uncontested economy and tech to whatever he wants if not harrased and ability to deny early timing pushes/pressure if needed.
And no, this build dosn't tries to vigourius deny overlord scouting with 2 stalkers at 9 mins mark. So if you want to defend something just becouse you think its cool some pro player wrote on strategy section feel free to watch replay first so you actually have actual information.
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What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes.
In this thread, the Stephano style is defined to be the roach max out, as Monk indicated. If you have your own idea of what it is, you're barking up the wrong tree.
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Thanks for the guide, Mista, but I do have a few questions:
If you're moving out around 14:30 with a 160~ supply army, the Zerg player has presumably 2 chances to engage with 200/200 Roach/Ling to weaken and kill your army. The first is when you move out from your natural, and when you're in a relatively open area Zerg will engage from as many angles as possible to shave some of your supply and make you use forcefields. Then Zerg will remax as you move across the map and meet you a second time on creep. Assuming the Zerg player doesn't attempt to transition to Muta, Hydra, or Infestor, can't they overcome this 2base style with pure 4-5 hatchery Roach?
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United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 03:44 Narw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:49 NrGmonk wrote:On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote:On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote:On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work. This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas. Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm). What exactly you are arguing here about? Semantics? Stephano style is using 3 hatches to get get eco lead, roach warren and evo to be safe and then he used to transition where ever he wanted. Be it spire play/double spire play, max out on roaches or tons other transitions. This style was popularized in western scene by him so i consider it Stephano style (i guess DRG was doing that in korea as similar time). The core stays - ability to get uncontested economy and tech to whatever he wants if not harrased and ability to deny early timing pushes/pressure if needed. And no, this build dosn't tries to vigourius deny overlord scouting with 2 stalkers at 9 mins mark. So if you want to defend something just becouse you think its cool some pro player wrote on strategy section feel free to watch replay first so you actually have actual information.
Even though you personally consider standard 3 base hatch macro play "stephano style", that's not what most people consider "stephano style" and not what the OP is refering to when he says "stephano style". If you accept that, then you haven't really refuted any of my points that I made in my post. To rephrase my point, the OP isn't saying he counters 3 base macro play; he's saying his build counters blind 65 drone 4 hatch 4 gas max on roach ling into attack the protoss.
The part about denying overlord scouting is in the OP, even if he doesn't adhere to it as much as he should.
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On May 15 2012 03:44 Narw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:49 NrGmonk wrote:On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote:On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote:On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work. This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas. Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm). What exactly you are arguing here about? Semantics? Stephano style is using 3 hatches to get get eco lead, roach warren and evo to be safe and then he used to transition where ever he wanted. Be it spire play/double spire play, max out on roaches or tons other transitions.
That's not exactly what most people mean when they say Stephano-style. While it does involve a fast third against FFE, it is more of reference to the very aggressive max-out style, constantly trading and denying the protoss third base.
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I can understand your points that i consider stephano style openings something different, but at same time i still do not get how this build is stronger then lets say 11-12 mins warp prism/immortal/sentry push (which is actually safe against muta transition couse it hits way earlier) and how it can work against roach/bling (which if you really do fail to identify the build early enough you should transition into).
(i can understand how it can work vs that on shakuras where even with limited sentry energy you can get game ending position between zerg bases)
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United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 04:20 Narw wrote:
I can understand your points that i consider stephano style openings something different, but at same time i still do not get how this build is stronger then lets say 11-12 mins warp prism/immortal/sentry push (which is actually safe against muta transition couse it hits way earlier) and how it can work against roach/bling (which if you really do fail to identify the build early enough you should transition into).
(i can understand how it can work vs that on shakuras where even with limited sentry energy you can get game ending position between zerg bases)
That's a completely different point than anything you previously addressed.
I already explained the logic and rational behind his build here:
Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work.
This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas.
Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm).
That's what makes it different from a standard immortal/prism all-in. No one's saying this build is better or even solid. It's a completely different type of all-in that has a different way of thinking and tries to exploit something completely different than an immortal all-in. Re-read the last 2 paragraphs if you still don't get it.
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Russian Federation396 Posts
i love how people are complaining that this build is bad,
1. Hes a higher level player then probably 95% of people in this thread (He just recently beat White-Ra in a bo7/9 i dont remember among other notable players). He has a huge list of achievements and interviews. Mista is an established player. And imo this should be highlighted
2. He has a ton of replays showing how it works
Will definitely try this out, thank you Mista
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idk how so many people can doubt a guide written by a top EU GM professional player... lol half of you are probably in gold league tops
Personally looking forward to trying this out, looks like its good for some ladder points :D
On May 15 2012 04:46 JitnikoVi wrote:i love how people are complaining that this build is bad, 1. Hes a higher level player then probably 99% of people in this thread (He just recently beat White-Ra in a bo7/9 i dont remember among other notable players). He has a huge list of achievements and interviews. Mista is an established player. And imo this should be highlighted 2. He has a ton of replays showing how it works Will definitely try this out, thank you Mista
I fixed that for you
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kinda funny how all the lower level players bashing on the higher level player on builds when traditionally its the better player bashing on the plat level build.
Nowhere has this build been stated to be an "all purpose ladder" build. Its just a specific build vs a specific style of play. In the same sense where "nexus first or command center first" isnt a completely better build since you are vulnerable to certain phase of game.
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Russian Federation396 Posts
On May 15 2012 04:59 AGIANTSMURF wrote:idk how so many people can doubt a guide written by a top EU GM professional player... lol half of you are probably in gold league tops Personally looking forward to trying this out, looks like its good for some ladder points :D Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 04:46 JitnikoVi wrote:i love how people are complaining that this build is bad, 1. Hes a higher level player then probably 100% of people in this thread (He just recently beat White-Ra in a bo7/9 i dont remember among other notable players). He has a huge list of achievements and interviews. Mista is an established player. And imo this should be highlighted 2. He has a ton of replays showing how it works Will definitely try this out, thank you Mista I fixed that for you
Hah thx i didnt want to blatantly state it like that
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On May 15 2012 05:09 TheMista wrote:http://drop.sc/179637 vs Mouzbigs scouted early spire and got 3rd base leading to an epic 30 min game !
sick, this should silence all the fools who complained about muta :D
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nice! another way for protoss to gamble! make him see colossus tech and hope he makes lots of corrupters!
you dont beat a macro strategy with a cute little build involving mindgames, you beat it by playing well. if you are on top of building placement, macro, and scouting, you can beat 200/200 roaches at 11 minutes regardless of what your build is.
User was warned for this post
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I am sure you didnt read any of the discussion.
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On May 14 2012 16:44 TheMista wrote:
Its really hard for a zerg to go mutalisk when he doesnt see a 3rd base from protoss.
And you title says Anti stephano style , but even if he goes mutalisk you will scout it with your prism and obs.
3 hatch style is reactive. If someone sees you turtling on 2 base past 10 minutes why would they not tech to infestors or mutas and prepare for a colossus all-in? I'm sure this build is fine if your opponents are blindly maxing on roaches and neglecting tech, but it's definitely not a consistent style and it's not even as tricky or scary as other 2 base all-ins, so I'm not sure what the value of using this in a boX series would be.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 15 2012 02:49 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote:On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote:On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote:
In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants.
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic.
OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game.
So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work. This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas. Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm).
I totally didnt understand this build until reading this post, so thank you very much
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@oOOoOphidian: Did you even try to look at any of the replays :/ ?
Thanks for the build Mista, I'm enjoying your replays atm .
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United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 06:06 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 16:44 TheMista wrote:
Its really hard for a zerg to go mutalisk when he doesnt see a 3rd base from protoss.
And you title says Anti stephano style , but even if he goes mutalisk you will scout it with your prism and obs. 3 hatch style is reactive. If someone sees you turtling on 2 base past 10 minutes why would they not tech to infestors or mutas and prepare for a colossus all-in? I'm sure this build is fine if your opponents are blindly maxing on roaches and neglecting tech, but it's definitely not a consistent style and it's not even as tricky or scary as other 2 base all-ins, so I'm not sure what the value of using this in a boX series would be.
Read my large post in this thread.
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On May 15 2012 03:19 TheMista wrote:Thanks for all the comments guys good/bad i really apprieciete them I will try to play this build a lot in ladder or in customs but unfortunately i get 1/6 games vs zerg in ladder.
lol, still positive among all the hate.
Ok, sounds pretty straightforward. Yes, this build will work against Stephano's general style. No, if you see mutas coming and you don't transition, this build will not work. No, the Op never claimed it would.
Thanks for the build Mista, will try it out tonight.
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do you think if zerg scouts on third by toss by 12 or so minutes when they are maxed on roach and cant attack into you they can just throw up 10 spines and start teching infestors+hive. Im sure enough spines with infestor tech can hold the push
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In almost all maps there is more than 2 ways to get into zergs base to cover all the sides he needs 20-30 spines wich is impossible to do .
You can also fake a 3rd base. and cancel it
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Thanks Mista for the build, and Monk for bringing reason to this thread. Between the two of you there is a lot of valuable information to be gleaned here.
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On May 15 2012 07:05 TheMista wrote:
In almost all maps there is more than 2 ways to get into zergs base to cover all the sides he needs 20-30 spines wich is impossible to do .
You can also fake a 3rd base. and cancel it
so basically you just play the same for the first 10-12 minutes then based on what you scout you either take a third if they go anything but roach max or all in them if they roach max. Sounds pretty solid. Gonna try it out
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On May 15 2012 06:37 moQbara wrote:@oOOoOphidian: Did you even try to look at any of the replays :/ ? Thanks for the build Mista, I'm enjoying your replays atm .
Yes, I did. The opponents didn't play reactively and were often caught trying to tech to brood lords or similarly poor choices against a 2 base all-in. I'll grant that this is a stronger all-in than the stalker/sentry/immortal builds (though the point of those should simply be to take a third base quickly, but some people turn it into a 2 base timing), but it has the same weaknesses. I don't mean to be rude, as I recognize that he's a high level player, but 2 base colossus all-ins are not new and utilizing a warp prism doesn't change what it is weak against.
I'm mostly pointing these things out because the guide is very light on content and doesn't address any of this aside from "colossus kills roaches, hey look I beat stephano once when he went infestor ling." I'm sure more content would help people who both wish to execute this build without losing all the time to people who don't max on roaches and to people who want to beat this all-in.
I do want to point out though that this does accomplish its goal of beating a blind stephano roach player. Stephano himself often neglects scouting to extremes on ladder and in tournaments, so I could understand him losing to this occasionally, along with many players who probably also play that blind style.
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On May 15 2012 05:20 AGIANTSMURF wrote:sick, this should silence all the fools who complained about muta :D
Yes, if there was at least single mutalisk made that match maybe it would silence the fools.
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I dont know why arent all the "omg why are you scrubs criticizing god tier lvl player guide" comments warned, you guys bring absolotely nothing useful to this thread. If you feel like your game knowledge is not good enough to comment, fine, but dont assume all the others are like you. Just because the guide was written by a semi pro player does not mean its flawless. All I am trying to say (and few other guys) is that while it is a great way to punish a blind 12 min roach ling maxout, it will put you behind if the opponent reacts properly, amen.
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On May 15 2012 08:48 syriuszonito wrote:
I dont know why arent all the "omg why are you scrubs criticizing god tier lvl player guide" comments warned, you guys bring absolotely nothing useful to this thread. If you feel like your game knowledge is not good enough to comment, fine, but dont assume all the others are like you. Just because the guide was written by a semi pro player does not mean its flawless. All I am trying to say (and few other guys) is that while it is a great way to punish a blind 12 min roach ling maxout, it will put you behind if the opponent reacts properly, amen.
Reacting properly is the difficult part. Protoss has a ton of all-ins that require different reactions. If everyone could "react properly" then there's no need to play sc2 anymore because it becomes a highly elaborate game of rock-paper-scissors. Just because the guide was written by a semi pro player does not mean its flawless, but has merit behind it and better than all the "guides" created by players who are absolutely crap at the game.
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United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 08:48 syriuszonito wrote:
I dont know why arent all the "omg why are you scrubs criticizing god tier lvl player guide" comments warned, you guys bring absolotely nothing useful to this thread. If you feel like your game knowledge is not good enough to comment, fine, but dont assume all the others are like you. Just because the guide was written by a semi pro player does not mean its flawless. All I am trying to say (and few other guys) is that while it is a great way to punish a blind 12 min roach ling maxout, it will put you behind if the opponent reacts properly, amen.
Because they're not doing anything to detract from the discussion and most are offering words of encouragement to the OP. In contrast, most people criticizing the OP either don't understand the strategy or didn't read too much into the guide. If you have a problem with forum moderation, bring it up in website feedback.
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I just got crushed by this build its pretty strong. I saw that he had no third so I just maxed with infestor roach. My roaches were 2/2 and he just demolished me. I even had a good concave and used up all my infestor energy. To me it seems like a testament to the strength of protoss units, cost effectiveness, especially with upgrades. I think you need really quick broodlords to counter this if you try to roach max you are in trouble, even with that I'm not to sure.
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I'm sorry, I'll try and make this post the least bit redundant, but this is an extremely greedy build which is heavily based on metagaming your opponent, and to top it off, it was the creator of the build that you metagamed, somebody which you can just view 100's of his vods to perfect, and the real joke is that it was on shakuras as well which heavily favours 2 base play. I don't see any practical use in this build other then a gimmicky strategy you can use if you are playing stephano in an actual tournament game.
I don't think this should have been posted at all.
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First let me say thank you for such a great guide, very solid strategy. I won 4 games tonight using it vs zerg, high master on NA. I did not lose once, but I am looking forward to using it all day tomorrow and see how I do. So far very impressive and so funny how mad zerg gets. I guess its cheese now to only take 1 expansion?? LoL, I got some bad BM.
Let me ask you a few questions if you don't mind.
On the game you lost to all those mutas, do you think if you went Phoenix with range upgrade you could have won that one?
And what would you have to see for you to switch over to a regular 3 base play? Do you always execute this vs 3 bases? I would love to hear your thoughts on ways to vary the build or transition out of it depending on certain scenarios.
I will let you know as I play more games if I see any glaring holes or weaknesses but look solid, and is pretty fun. At first I read it and I didn't think it would even work , but I stand corrected. Thanks for guide.
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On May 15 2012 02:23 DeanMalinco wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:00 aintthatfunny wrote:
There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. This is much better against that than a fast 2 base allin. If you're going to do a late attack, it would be really silly to stay on 44 probes the whole time, so he gets more, which allows him to support more gateways. 10 is a bit much, but I guess since you are bound to miss some warp ins it's okay. You cannot be serious.... what good is going beyond 44 probes on 2 bases without an intention of taking a 3rd? 10 gates + 3/2 ups + robo/bay/range on 2 bases is just not realistic. You can barely support 8 gates with a gateway all in, and now we want to add in robo with collosi, and 3/2 ups + 2 more gates. I think morrow said it best a few posts ago, might as well just go for the old collosi timing push with a more refined build. Doesn't mean you cannot incorporate warp prism for the "mind games". But that much production with 56 probes on 2 bases is just....
Are you serious? Think about what you are saying please. When you do 1 base colossus allin you stay on 20 probes? Do you stay on 2 gateways, and not get 2 more later? Really?
No you don't, so please stop posting nonsense.
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A very interesting build indeed, I've been looking for builds against Z since its my worse matchup! (Still in top plat lvl)
I will definitely try this out a lot in ladder after I watch you replays and its very nice to see a pro posting guides and beating Stephano as well!
~AJ
I have a question though, how can you figure out how many probes you have? Some games I end up making too many probes (90+) And I dont really know when to stop or know that its the right amount.
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On May 15 2012 10:25 PapiQuAke wrote:
A very interesting build indeed, I've been looking for builds against Z since its my worse matchup! (Still in top plat lvl)
I will definitely try this out a lot in ladder after I watch you replays and its very nice to see a pro posting guides and beating Stephano as well!
~AJ
I have a question though, how can you figure out how many probes you have? Some games I end up making too many probes (90+) And I dont really know when to stop or know that its the right amount.
There is nothing to tell you exactly but you can box probes at each base to know. On one base or two bases you want about 20 probes on minerals on each basy usually, any more you want 16 probes on minerals for each base. Just box each base and when you have enough transfer rally point so you dont get any more.
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^ I see thank you!!
I watch the Mista vs Forsen game and its very hilarious :D
It seems I kinda liked the Warp Prism harass and I will surely start doing this a lot!
Thanks for the great start Mista!!
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as previously said. dont expect zerg to try and kill you when you're doing a 2base allin. they'll defend and kill you once you push.
User was warned for this post
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On May 15 2012 03:04 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:On May 15 2012 01:33 IPA wrote:
Such ingratitude toward a player who is better than 99.875% of the players on TL who decided to come on to the Strategy forum and share his thoughts. Disagreement is fine; to pretend like Mista is a random diamond player whose thoughts and builds have no merit is beyond absurd.
As a Z player, I love reading these threads to see what Ps might do to counter roach-heavy style. Fascinating. Thanks Mista and please don't mind the peanut gallery. judging from the build order making 10 gates robo sitting on 2base for 14:30 then attacking and calls it mindgames he kind of sounds like a diamond player even rotterdams 2base 1stargate 2 robo build makes more sense than this where you force hydras with the stargate and if he goes spire tech instead you focus on only immortals 10gateways are actually not needed for 2base, neither is 56 probes. when koreans 2base its almost always max 16+16+12 ~44 workers. they also always would attack before zerg gets maxed out and 3k in the bank sounds like a build from 2010 The reason you are allowed to spill empty criticism without mod action is because you have the authority bought by competitive results. It's not really about the truth of the statements one way or the other, it's the self-righteous presentation with no pretense at a reasoned argument. If you want to drop by and act that way, people will say "that's Morrow, he must have a point" and they'd be at least half right. If random scrub says exactly the same thing, we have nothing to go on except his point blank contradictions, which are meaningless, and obviously that is useless posting at best, possibly negative posting if it scares away high level posters. We assume posts from high level players have value; again this seems like a simplification fit for people who can't analyze for themselves. Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:cut down gates to a number of 6~7 attack with 2 colossus and range and 1 warp prism and dont go over 44 workers and it seems just better in every way.
the other one is with 3 immortals If the assumption is that the zerg player will be making lings and roaches anyway, there is no reason to move out with a flimsy army that won't accomplish anything specifically other than "hope I win or do enough damage that it was worth it". If you wait for a big ball of units (including some immortals) you will be able to kill zerg units so much more cost effectively, and more importantly preserving your unit count. Anyway the specific comparison doesn't matter, OP build is completely different idea than an asap 2 base timing. @grubby and silvertine and monk (and some others): pleasure to read your posts
lol, you say morrow spills "empty criticism" but you dont address the actual points he makes about the strategy, like the overproduction of gateways.
Even disregarding the names your post is "emptier" than his.
I dont like his harsh tone either but he does also have real criticism and even disregarding the names, his post is lesss "empty" than yours.
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I think this thread has just nailed the coffin in what ever respect some people still had for the strategy section.
People who A) dont know how to read, B) dont know the game C) are plainrght disrespectful to one of the RARE pro players who actually post here, should really refrain from posting on this website.
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On May 15 2012 19:32 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 03:04 EatThePath wrote:On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:On May 15 2012 01:33 IPA wrote:
Such ingratitude toward a player who is better than 99.875% of the players on TL who decided to come on to the Strategy forum and share his thoughts. Disagreement is fine; to pretend like Mista is a random diamond player whose thoughts and builds have no merit is beyond absurd.
As a Z player, I love reading these threads to see what Ps might do to counter roach-heavy style. Fascinating. Thanks Mista and please don't mind the peanut gallery. judging from the build order making 10 gates robo sitting on 2base for 14:30 then attacking and calls it mindgames he kind of sounds like a diamond player even rotterdams 2base 1stargate 2 robo build makes more sense than this where you force hydras with the stargate and if he goes spire tech instead you focus on only immortals 10gateways are actually not needed for 2base, neither is 56 probes. when koreans 2base its almost always max 16+16+12 ~44 workers. they also always would attack before zerg gets maxed out and 3k in the bank sounds like a build from 2010 The reason you are allowed to spill empty criticism without mod action is because you have the authority bought by competitive results. It's not really about the truth of the statements one way or the other, it's the self-righteous presentation with no pretense at a reasoned argument. If you want to drop by and act that way, people will say "that's Morrow, he must have a point" and they'd be at least half right. If random scrub says exactly the same thing, we have nothing to go on except his point blank contradictions, which are meaningless, and obviously that is useless posting at best, possibly negative posting if it scares away high level posters. We assume posts from high level players have value; again this seems like a simplification fit for people who can't analyze for themselves. On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:cut down gates to a number of 6~7 attack with 2 colossus and range and 1 warp prism and dont go over 44 workers and it seems just better in every way.
the other one is with 3 immortals If the assumption is that the zerg player will be making lings and roaches anyway, there is no reason to move out with a flimsy army that won't accomplish anything specifically other than "hope I win or do enough damage that it was worth it". If you wait for a big ball of units (including some immortals) you will be able to kill zerg units so much more cost effectively, and more importantly preserving your unit count. Anyway the specific comparison doesn't matter, OP build is completely different idea than an asap 2 base timing. @grubby and silvertine and monk (and some others): pleasure to read your posts lol, you say morrow spills "empty criticism" but you dont address the actual points he makes about the strategy, like the overproduction of gateways. Even disregarding the names your post is "emptier" than his. I dont like his harsh tone either but he does also have real criticism and even disregarding the names, his post is lesss "empty" than yours.
You don't even understand what I was saying, and you go out of your way to tell me I'm wrong. Instead of getting my point, you illustrated it. Clever.
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Watched the replays. Seems like a strong all-in.
I think those are the main differences I could notice, compared to the "standard" immortals/blink stalkers all-in:
- low sentry count: only 2 sentries are made in the early game for defensive purposes. The saved gas is instead invested in faster tech. Low army at the beginning. Pretty greedy.
- very fast upgrades: chronoing upgrades non-stop, going quick double-forge. The main idea is to have 2 or 3 upgrades of advance compared to the Zerg, to make up for the lack of a fast third and trade efficiently.
- 10 gates: actually makes sense if you want to reinforce with round cycles of 10 zealots. Pure zealots builds can get up to 5 gates on 1 saturated base, so I'm not surprised you'd get 10 on 2 bases. You reinforce with zealots as a meat shield and against lings. You stop robo production as soon as the all-in starts. You only add additional gates at the last minute, to be ready when the all-in starts ( ie. no you're not on 10 gates for most of the game ! you can't produce stalkers out of 10 gates.. ).
- timing: delayed compared to the standard all-in. You try to push when you get to 3/2 and right before he techs to broods and saturates his fourth.
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This is a cute idea that abuses the common thought process of Zerg players. They think the attack is coming at 10 minutes, so they start pumping out units to max at 11:30. Then they're stuck on roach tech for the next few minutes and your 14:30 timing kills them before they complete their switch to broodlords.
I think this is definitely beatable with mass spines and roach+corruptor. What Z really needs to do is stall your push until they finish their tech transition. Another way to beat this build would be to base trade with a spine wall and possibly OL drops. And of course, if Z makes a read that you won't be pushing out until after 13 minutes, they can tech up to infestor-BL much faster. An 18 minute infestor-BL transition can turn into 14 minutes pretty easily if Z knows they'll be left untouched.
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Since this attack comes pretty late. It might actually be worth it to go beyond optimal saturation of 44 probes. Although I think 56 is too much. Is this build really optimized for that many probes on a 2 base all-in? You still get an economic boost even if it is slightly less efficient. I mean if you cut say 6 probes and 2 gates would you be able to get this push going slightly faster? I might have to try it.
I am also really dubious about having 10 gates which might only be worth it if you never make Stalkers during the all-in or if your macro slips up in the heat of the momment.
If you build that many probes for example you could instead make an expansion while you push out using that money you cut from making 2 extra gateways. Then you can actually transition out of it this push if you manage to do enough damage but not kill them.
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As a zerg player I would just go for 15 spines at my 3rd and at my natural if the protoss has not expanded at 13 minutes. Do you go for blink to counter that? It should be possible, but it is a hardcore all in. A base trade with all roaches should also be possible if I have 30 spines.
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On May 16 2012 00:23 RainF4ll wrote:
As a zerg player I would just go for 15 spines at my 3rd and at my natural if the protoss has not expanded at 13 minutes. Do you go for blink to counter that? It should be possible, but it is a hardcore all in. A base trade with all roaches should also be possible if I have 30 spines.
A grandmaster zerg attempted that in one of the replays he posted, it didnt work to well. I had a zerg attempt the same thing on Daybreak and I got through pretty quickly, although it was closer then I would have liked, granted im no GM but I am top 8 masters on NA, for whatever thats worth. I just love to see builds like these posted here, its a new way of thinking and helps to progress the meta game.
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nice build, its the same concept of a build i used some months ago. wp harass off 2 base into a 2 colosus all in with some ups. i would get blink and 1 1 with a higher sentry count. but this is even more savage with that double forge ups and 3 extra gates and colo. I used to hit an earlier timing though. the wp harrass is esential to disrupt his macro, keep him in his base while ur weak and scout his tech so u can deviate in time.
im wondering, would it be viable to drop a 10:30-11:00 min third to bait the roach max? i mean just a nexus and a pilon and cancelling it when u see he is maxing on them roaches.
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So why are people being warned for even mild criticism if this build? Lol I read ridiculously harsh criticism of some of Tang's build criticism...some who hadn't even read the original post. And yet people are getting warned here because they suggested it might be a little late and vulnerable to Mutas...which TheMista even admits himself? No edits on the posts or anything either. So who with warning/banning privileges has personal ties to TheMista?
That said, the build seems legit, if not a bit dependent on luck in knowing exactly what the other person scouted...the tech switch to immortals if you know they scouted is pretty smart though. Stephano must have experienced a slew of creative 2 base all-ins (IPL FC included), because he has been working on quicker Hive tech and foregoing the 3-base roach build a lot lately.
-->Oh and Morrow apparently thinks this build is trash, lol...so I guess it's not even as legit as I was giving it credit for...whoever warned the people on page 1 needs to warn a lot of the other posters...Morrow included, if you want to be consistent...what a fucking joke.
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Cool build I'm already scared to face it.
I've been wondering about implement drop and speed for overlords into the stephano style.
Have you faced any sort of drop play from zergs??
How about a zerg who fakes mutalisks, tries to deny scouting with overseer and gets a lot of hydralisks? Perhaps that could work (I try to find a use for hydralisks all the time, they're my favourite unit :D)
Since you adapt to muta's by only getting one collussi and no upgrades.
Or a combination of hydra's + drop?
Anyways I'm really scared to face that build on ladder. I'm not even good vs collussi in the first place 
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Hey Mista, good build! Just watched the replays and it seems legit. It doesn't particularly fit my style as I'm not much of an all-in player but still, worth trying. BTW, good job the other day on the showmatch against white-ra, I enjoyed it quite a bit . Good luck in the future!
People, if you want to decide if you continue with this build or not during scouting, keep in mind that stephano's spam roaches build plant's the roach warren at around the 7-8 minute mark. If you don't see that, don't expect mass roaches at the 12 minute mark. Which means that you can expand and/or transition to more standard play.
Cheers
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All you guys being so rude to one of the few Pro's who actually post here. This guy is pro for a reason, and one of the best players in the world. Be more respectful, if you want to disagree then do so , but coming in here into his threat that he was kind enough to take the time to write and trolling is uncalled for. Be more respectfull, was a nice post.
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On May 14 2012 16:33 Complete wrote:
10 gates, robo, 2 forge+TC/robo bay for a 2 base strat? Seems excessive.
Only 2 sentries?
I guess I need to watch the replays. But I don't really see what's stopping him from waiting until you leave your base, hitting you with maxed roach/ling, killing half your army, and then remaxing while you're moving accross the map to clean you up easily. Zerg will have like 3 minutes of larva injects/money savings from a roach spam strat.
I could see it working if he tried to roach spam in your natural, but I'm really not sure why he would if he see's you haven't taken a 3rd.
I don't like the idea of colossus for 2 base allins against high eco zerg builds either. Anything that gives zerg the ability to trade semi-cost effectively iin the mid-game is a huge win for them, especially if it's a high gas/tech unit like collo. This is also basically all-in if you haven't taken a 3rd by the 15 minute mark, stressing even higher the need for cost efficiency.
He's not gonna kill half of that army with only roaches and lings. Chances are he's going to kill about a 4th of it if he is lucky. Zeglings are rendered useless by the colossus and mass roaches sure aren't going to do well against 5+ immortals.
Roach max is by far the weakest max army in the game. It's not even going to put a dent into a 3-2 protoss army with immortals and colossus in it.
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On May 16 2012 00:15 kcdc wrote:
This is a cute idea that abuses the common thought process of Zerg players. They think the attack is coming at 10 minutes, so they start pumping out units to max at 11:30. Then they're stuck on roach tech for the next few minutes and your 14:30 timing kills them before they complete their switch to broodlords.
I think this is definitely beatable with mass spines and roach+corruptor. What Z really needs to do is stall your push until they finish their tech transition. Another way to beat this build would be to base trade with a spine wall and possibly OL drops. And of course, if Z makes a read that you won't be pushing out until after 13 minutes, they can tech up to infestor-BL much faster. An 18 minute infestor-BL transition can turn into 14 minutes pretty easily if Z knows they'll be left untouched.
I dunno. I think you're overestimating the power of roaches vs this kind of army. Roaches that can't even move freely because of spines being in the way is not going to be able to flank properly. Spines + roaches shouldn't be able to hold this push in any number unless you have like 3 layers of spines which would cost about 4k minerals to make. Usually to stop a colossus push with spines you need infestors + a few corruptors. If the zerg really does commit to the roach max then he wont have gas to make both of those.
Also protoss that has blink doesn't need to trade units to kill spines. He will just blink back hurt stalkers while colossus and immortals goes in on the spines.
I fail to see how anything other than a base trade (maybe with drops) would be able to beat this build after the zerg allready committed to mass roach. If zerg spots this and takes faster 6 gas and a faster 4th base for eventual 8 gas then maybe he can defend this if he stops roaches early enough. But then again, if you're playing like stephano you're gonna have 2-0 ranged upgrades and thus probably no more than 1-1 melee / carapace when the 3-2 protoss army comes.
Obviously you could muta switch if you knew this was coming early enough and pretty much shut down the build hard.
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Very simple strat to be honest, and I wasn't Really sold until I saw the replay vs Stephano. And wow, you've beaten the Korean demolishing Z-is-OP-in-ZvP God of Zerg, congratz :D Now granted, it's a strat that is designed to counter that specfic style, and Stephano went unusually ling heavy in that game, however, I think it would work as well against roaches or whatever. You made Stephano's army look like a normal zerg army, lol.
And I think if he goes mutas, so what. Go base race. What's his PATHETIC ling/spine wall gunna do vs. that deathball. Sure, your base will be gone, but keep enough stalkers and you'll win out in the end. Cannon up your natural if you must. What people seem to miss is that if zerg goes mutas they actually suck in a straight engagement for two reasons: head to head fight they aren't too bad, but they CAN'T kill the toss' base AND kill the toss army at the same time. And ling spine vs a deathball like that is a joke, whilst mutas may be trashing your base. So yeh, I think you have a really solid, well thought out and most importantly proven strategy here, wow man. Gratz :D !
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On May 16 2012 22:17 hillman wrote:
So why are people being warned for even mild criticism if this build? Lol I read ridiculously harsh criticism of some of Tang's build criticism...some who hadn't even read the original post. And yet people are getting warned here because they suggested it might be a little late and vulnerable to Mutas...which TheMista even admits himself? No edits on the posts or anything either. So who with warning/banning privileges has personal ties to TheMista?
That said, the build seems legit, if not a bit dependent on luck in knowing exactly what the other person scouted...the tech switch to immortals if you know they scouted is pretty smart though. Stephano must have experienced a slew of creative 2 base all-ins (IPL FC included), because he has been working on quicker Hive tech and foregoing the 3-base roach build a lot lately.
-->Oh and Morrow apparently thinks this build is trash, lol...so I guess it's not even as legit as I was giving it credit for...whoever warned the people on page 1 needs to warn a lot of the other posters...Morrow included, if you want to be consistent...what a fucking joke.
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^ i can't tell if this mod has a sense of humor or just doesn't want to be questioned :D
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game against Stephano wasn't even close lol.
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I love the Stephano style. I cannon up and take a 3rd and 4th with void rays lol.
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The game against Stephano took place when he was streaming. That day was a funny day. Stephano was asking people in chat to suggest units he would use in the coming game. There was a game when he made 24 infestors. There was a game where he made 120 drones. He won some, he lost some, but still went up to second on the EU ladder that day from fourth.
In this particular game on Shakuras against Mista, Stephano went ling heavy, hardly any roaches at all. A bit atypical for him. He also did not even try to scout the Protoss base with an overload/overseer at all. 2 mistakes on his part which were highlighted in the stream chat after the game. Well done to Mista for managing to get a clean win though. The Stephano style is more currently associated with heavy Roach play generally, and specifically with a max out on roaches on 11-12 minutes though, rather than mainly using lings as in this game against Mista. Also this game was played before the recent Overlord buff which makes scouting by Zergs easier to execute. We will have to see how this effects the metagame generally and this build specifically.
Personally, I think it is great that Mista is sharing various strategies here for everyone to discuss. It will be interesting to see whether he can make a name for himself in tournaments going forward.
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I wholeheartedly would like to thank Mista for sharing his build. Regardless of how many people feel the need to discredit or poke holes in the build, for a pro player to share some of his "tech" with the community is extremely refreshing, and I really do thank you for it.
I think there are some main points about the build which a lot of people seem to be forgetting. This is designed to work against the "Roach max" build, and if the Zerg player identifies this build and changes tactics, well, the Protoss is going to have to change up his strategy as well. Builds don't have to be set in stone like a lot of people think. There were many games where I went in thinking I'd be going for some kind of composition but based on what happened during the game, my plan got altered quite dramatically. This is no different.
The second point that I think is a little understated is that even if the Zerg changes tech and goes a different route (depending on how far in he realizes or decides to switch) you still will have a lot of infrastructure and a lot of tech set up and good to go. Protoss has to spend a LOT of money on upgrades and structures, and with that out of the way, even if you're taking a late expo you won't have to be spending that money on all these upgrades because they're already done. I feel like a lot of casters in vods will overemphasize advantages in game based solely on economy... When tech in itself can be a really key advantage. Once you have invested in all these upgrades and tech, that's money you (hopefully) won't need to spend again and can now spend on bulking up your army.
So to make a long story short, I really like this build and I'm very grateful that Mista chose to share it. It is definitely a niche build, but a well needed one. Also the thing is, a single build like this has the potential to shift metagames... Once a known "counter" to the roach 11-12min maxout has been absorbed and used by the community, people on the ladder will favor that style less and less... Similar to how the Protoss 3gate expand was phased out due to Zergs adapting and breaking it, if Protoss has learned how to break a Zerg doing this style, it will just fade into memory (hopefully).
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get 2 cannons at front, because i constantly get all ined on ladder, mid diamond to mid master level, they dont even scout my buildings but they roahc ling all in, and usually 2 cannons isn't enough...:/ any advice mista?
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my bad: shouldnt of presumed.
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United States8476 Posts
On May 18 2012 12:12 birdseed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 10:28 Fortis-Et-Fidus wrote:
get 2 cannons at front, because i constantly get all ined on ladder, mid diamond to mid master level, they dont even scout my buildings but they roahc ling all in, and usually 2 cannons isn't enough...:/ any advice mista?
User was warned for this post The reason you got warned is because the answer is implied by the OP and you gave bad advice. This build is meant to go against the stephano style roach max which requires 3hatch before gas. This means that if you don't scout 3hatch before gas you should not do this build. If you use the search feature I'd bet you can find threads where people give advice about playing against 2 base zerg (which means faster tech or an all in).
No, the reason he got warned was that he went completely off topic, using this thread as an opportunity to ask Mista an unrelated question.
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Thank you mista! this build is actually pretty good. I'm a mid masters terran player who recently switched to toss : P and after losing 3 games in a row to my mid/top masters zerg friend, (him going stephano style), I found this guide and used it on him, and low and behold it worked. Mindgames played a huge part and a lot came down to his corruptor timing, which was just a tad bit late. All in all, seems to be a good build, thanks for sharing it.
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I wanted to say thanks also, for sharing this build. I saw this post today, watched the replays, and gave it a try. I've walked all over my roach maxing opponents. Thanks!
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Dropping a 2 base protoss player not a good idea.
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With an observer and a prism out is it possible to go for drops without me seeing it ? therefore i will have units ready to defend the drop.
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Hey mista, nice guide u have here.
Looks like a strong build, How do you deal with people who will get like 6/7 festors at home and then basetrade you with roaches?
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If the map sufficiently spacious couldn't the zerg expand to far bases for 4th and 5th. And then just base race you when youtry to attack? Obviously its not a perfect counter but I always thought base race to be a zerg weapon not used well enough
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I think more then 3 replays would be nice...
User was warned for this post. There are 7 replays in the OP......
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The greatest thing about this build imo is that it disguises itself as an immortal all in if you deny scouting properly. So the zerg will be mortally afraid of taking a fast 4th and get those important 8 gas. If a zerg is 100% sure that this build is coming then he could probably just mass drone/spine and take 4th really early so that he can get spine+infestor+corruptor up in time to combat this. But you can't just blindly do that because its an instant loss against any early 2 base timing.
I think zergs are gonna have to have an exact 4th base timing when protoss shows no sign of attacking beyond some kind of time limit.
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Funny how a good pro player, granted - not the most famous, but still good, posts a strategy that he is using against "Stephano style" and we has a bunch of lower end players, homemade experts telling him it's a bad build.
I for one can say this. I had around 65-70% win ratio in pvz for ages, had this matchup in my pocket. Then I had my finals so couldn't play and when I got back to playing, shiiii, my best matchup had gone down the sink. I just couldn't beat Stephano style, currently I have a 80% win rate in pvp, 57% win rate in pvt but only 30% win rate in pvz. I tried this build and it worked perfectly, I denied scouting, he didn't know when I was moving out, he figured out what was going on too late and his blind response to some 10-11 minute push out from me failed him and I crushed him. Then the same happened next game.
Thank you man, you have just saved my pvz.
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I've lost to P doing something like this (turtle for 14 or 15 minutes and then pushout with Collosuses or a bunch of immortals) and I generally do the "stephano build". I'm high diamond. This build seems to work on maps where it's easy for Protoss to hold their natural with sentries (e.g., Ohana or Shakuras) but on Daybreak I've been able to kill it with superior production by simply breaking down their wall at around the 12 minute mark and eventually overwhelming their forces before a bunch of colossus can come out. If you're doing the Stephano build you'll have about 60 drones at 8 minutes and a fourth base before the 10 minute mark. If you see a warp prism you can safely drone to 65-70 in case you want to play for the later game. With patience, if you simply keep teching up (and killing or sacrificing supply as needed to replace roaches with infestors and corruptors), it seems like it would be hard for P to march across the map and beat 2 maxed out Zerg armies, but what seems hard and it was is hard in practice are obviously two different things.
Sorry for being lazy, but could you direct me to a game where you beat 2 maxed out zerg armies? (Or could someone who's watched the games do so.) I need to see it to believe it
Edit: I should add that when I lose to the build, i attribute it to the fact that I am idiot who insists on throwing half his army away by trying to force his way up the ramp to the nat on Shakuras and repeatedly losing half of his army until the Protoss is near maxed and I die.
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Pretty strong timing push, but i think it doesn't work twice against the same zerg player (on really high level). Your only little aggression is the warpprism which is not too scary :p. If the zerg sees that you are so extremly passiv for such a long time he can build like no units and play extremly greedy. By the time the push hits he'll have 20 spines, infestors and broodlords out which deals with that push pretty ez.
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On May 19 2012 04:40 The_Darkness wrote:I've lost to P doing something like this (turtle for 14 or 15 minutes and then pushout with Collosuses or a bunch of immortals) and I generally do the "stephano build". I'm high diamond. This build seems to work on maps where it's easy for Protoss to hold their natural with sentries (e.g., Ohana or Shakuras) but on Daybreak I've been able to kill it with superior production by simply breaking down their wall at around the 12 minute mark and eventually overwhelming their forces before a bunch of colossus can come out. If you're doing the Stephano build you'll have about 60 drones at 8 minutes and a fourth base before the 10 minute mark. If you see a warp prism you can safely drone to 65-70 in case you want to play for the later game. With patience, if you simply keep teching up (and killing or sacrificing supply as needed to replace roaches with infestors and corruptors), it seems like it would be hard for P to march across the map and beat 2 maxed out Zerg armies, but what seems hard and it was is hard in practice are obviously two different things. Sorry for being lazy, but could you direct me to a game where you beat 2 maxed out zerg armies? (Or could someone who's watched the games do so.) I need to see it to believe it Edit: I should add that when I lose to the build, i attribute it to the fact that I am idiot who insists on throwing half his army away by trying to force his way up the ramp to the nat on Shakuras and repeatedly losing half of his army until the Protoss is near maxed and I die.
I don't think you understand what the point of the build is if you think you can trade units before the actual battle. The whole point is that if you spend money on more than 20 roaches you are most likely not going to afford the gas units you need to defend the push. Also if you stop drones at 60 vs this you won't afford mass spines in time either.
The whole point of this build is that you need to start reacting to it about 3-4 minutes before it hits and it's very hard for a zerg to decide if they should be safe against this build or safe against a normal sentry heavy immortal push.
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Just wanted to stop by and thank Mista for sharing his build. I am just starting online play so I don't have any strategic insight worth sharing of course  . However, in an effort to improve my macro I've been following filtersc's thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330787
and this build is fantastic for a Protoss version!
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On May 20 2012 01:41 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 04:40 The_Darkness wrote:I've lost to P doing something like this (turtle for 14 or 15 minutes and then pushout with Collosuses or a bunch of immortals) and I generally do the "stephano build". I'm high diamond. This build seems to work on maps where it's easy for Protoss to hold their natural with sentries (e.g., Ohana or Shakuras) but on Daybreak I've been able to kill it with superior production by simply breaking down their wall at around the 12 minute mark and eventually overwhelming their forces before a bunch of colossus can come out. If you're doing the Stephano build you'll have about 60 drones at 8 minutes and a fourth base before the 10 minute mark. If you see a warp prism you can safely drone to 65-70 in case you want to play for the later game. With patience, if you simply keep teching up (and killing or sacrificing supply as needed to replace roaches with infestors and corruptors), it seems like it would be hard for P to march across the map and beat 2 maxed out Zerg armies, but what seems hard and it was is hard in practice are obviously two different things. Sorry for being lazy, but could you direct me to a game where you beat 2 maxed out zerg armies? (Or could someone who's watched the games do so.) I need to see it to believe it Edit: I should add that when I lose to the build, i attribute it to the fact that I am idiot who insists on throwing half his army away by trying to force his way up the ramp to the nat on Shakuras and repeatedly losing half of his army until the Protoss is near maxed and I die. I don't think you understand what the point of the build is if you think you can trade units before the actual battle. The whole point is that if you spend money on more than 20 roaches you are most likely not going to afford the gas units you need to defend the push. Also if you stop drones at 60 vs this you won't afford mass spines in time either. The whole point of this build is that you need to start reacting to it about 3-4 minutes before it hits and it's very hard for a zerg to decide if they should be safe against this build or safe against a normal sentry heavy immortal push.
I don't think you understand what I wrote, or you're trying to troll me. I made two separate points: 1) You can often simply overwhelm the Protoss at their wall. This is map dependent since it depends on how much surface area there is but it's generally doable on, e.g., Daybreak. But sometimes you can't, which leads to point 2: Even if you don't scout that they're doing this "build", a build like this isn't that hard to spot. If the Protoss hasn't expanded, then he's all-inning; you don't need to scout anything to determine that other than the fact that he doesn't have a third base. This point does not turn on trading before the final battle. If you have between 60 and 70 drones and you're maxed at 12 you will have enough bank to afford another army in three to four minutes (5700 to 7600 min, 1200-1600 gas (actually probably more gas -- I'm assuming you stay on four gases) and 50 to 60 additional larvae, take away some gas for further upgrades and tech and some minerals for additional hatcheries and spines; you can easily afford spines if you're mining approximately 2K minerals a minute).
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You sir are a hero to my profile
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I just want to say, this build is absolutely amazing and while im a mid diamond player, I just beat a top diamond and mid masters zerg with this. With good positioning, I don't see how this build will die unless all in'd early game
Thanks a bunch!
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After trying it a bit I love this all in.
What do you think about templar tech with this? I find colossus build too slow to reinforce, so after the first 3 or 4 switching to archon might be better?
Edit : also wanted to note, one subtle thing you can do is occasionally move a probe to your third and build a pylon. The zerg will usually send some roach ling to shut down your "expansion". This can make them cocky about their advantage and less sure of the all in ( this is speculation on their thinking, but they seem to be more greedy and less ready)
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I just started experimenting with this build now. I would like to say thank you for sharing this . I am always open minded to new strategies and this will be one that I will enjoy using. By the way , do you stream at all ?
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Thank you for this guide Mista !
I had a really hard time against Stephano style, but now Im crushing everyone Got promoted tnx to this guide
Keep it up ! :D
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I'm still catching up on the state of zvp since starting back up, but I just watched this game on stephano's stream from his perspective, and he really seemed to have absolutely no idea what you were doing at all the entire game.
http://www.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/317466122 (It's at 20:30)
He seemed content knowing you were on 2 bases, seeing an immortal and a few sentries, and knowing your gas timings. He happily took a fourth and droned his face off. He shut down your warp prism harass for the most part but just seemed underprepared for your attack. I don't know if part of your plan for the warp prism harass was just to get him to make a lot more lings?
Is it normal for zergs to play this much in the dark? Was it cockiness on his part (he was talking some friendly smack at the beginning) or something else I just wasn't picking up on?
You pretty much moved across the map with a death ball and popped him in the mouth.
As zerg, what exactly should I do if you sit on 2-base and max? I should drone up my third and then just max on roaches? I feel like you could be attacking at any time from 8 minutes to the 14 you move out at, any of which would be too risky to try and tech up.
edit: after reading this thread in full, it seems like I should just go mutas via nerchio replay?
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Hey, just wanted to pop in and say this build kicks ass! I just tried it out in Diamond against a Zerg who did the super fast roach max out, and at the 15 minute mark with 3 colossi and 1/1 upgrades (I did it really sloppily!) I rampaged through Zerg's 4th and 3rd bases, only falling back to defend his hail-mary Roach counter rather than killing his natural and main. After I launched the attack I double-expanded and started producing probes again. Zerg's economy was super crippled, and although he had the tech in place for the 18 minute brood lord infestor transition he didn't have the econ to do it and I rolled over his main with blink stalker + colossus.
As long as you double-expand during/after the attack does a ton of damage, it can transition to a macro game, I think.
I assume if I scout muta I go ahead and cannon up my bases before the move-out? He shouldn't be able to touch me before I leave my base, since I'd have blink and stalkers turtled in my base, so I just want to prevent a base trade scenario.
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What stops the Zerg from base-trading with you? As in, couldn't he just wait for you to leave and own your 2 bases with mass roach?
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I started playing with this build yesterday (only diamond though, I still have some macro issues) but wanted to mention a couple things I noticed.
First of all, it really seems like the key to this whole thing is doing solid damage with the WP. Every game where I was able to get a few drone kills and the zerg didn't react properly with queens and his roach positioning, the game was essentially over before I even pushed out with my army.
Also, you mention hiding the colossus, but equally as important imo is hiding the robo as much as possible, because a suspicious player who switches to muta will just straight up kill you. Basically, once they finish their spire, it seems like you have about a 1 1/2-2 minute window to move out or you will lose.
You might have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but what have you done in games where you thought your opponent was going max roach but then decided to spam a bunch of mutas instead? Sorry if this is a bad question. Thank you so much for posting this build Mista.
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Considering you are deciding to turtle on 2 bases, have you messed around with having a macro nexus?
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On May 31 2012 20:16 Shallot wrote:
I started playing with this build yesterday (only diamond though, I still have some macro issues) but wanted to mention a couple things I noticed.
First of all, it really seems like the key to this whole thing is doing solid damage with the WP. Every game where I was able to get a few drone kills and the zerg didn't react properly with queens and his roach positioning, the game was essentially over before I even pushed out with my army.
Also, you mention hiding the colossus, but equally as important imo is hiding the robo as much as possible, because a suspicious player who switches to muta will just straight up kill you. Basically, once they finish their spire, it seems like you have about a 1 1/2-2 minute window to move out or you will lose.
You might have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but what have you done in games where you thought your opponent was going max roach but then decided to spam a bunch of mutas instead? Sorry if this is a bad question. Thank you so much for posting this build Mista.
I didn't get to see the nerchio replay. But yes, this doesn't seem to work very well against ling/muta builds. Esp 2 hatch muta. But 2 hatch muta has always been a good counter for quick 2 base/colo timings. From what I can tell, if you scout he is doing something other than stephano style, you should add like 5 more sentrys and take your third if the map allows it, similar to how MC beat Stephano at the Red Bull Lan. I think MC plays a very good econ style vs this type of play that can hold up to muta though.
I appreciate the guide, but i just dont know if I have the scouting to beat muta switches. I really like MC's quick third base because then mutas aren't a huge issue, because I find quick 3 base with canons pretty much can negate muta openings. If you dont get that third base though muta openings just punish us so bad.
Good Guide, if i scout 3 hatch that isn't going heavy gas i'll be sure to try and do it.
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Mista, thanks for this build. In last time, i struggeld a lot vs Zerg. They all played roaches, so i had not that many chances. Today i got 5 zergs, i always played this build, and i always won...so thanks for sharing it!
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I don't know if it has been said yet....soo many pages.... But would it be viable to incorporate a stargate ( just one ) just in case you do in fact scout the mutas so you can produce pheonix?
Seems like it's a good idea if you can fit it in
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On May 31 2012 05:19 Borkbokbork wrote:
What stops the Zerg from base-trading with you? As in, couldn't he just wait for you to leave and own your 2 bases with mass roach?
Zerg has about 9 buildings, you have about 30
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On May 22 2012 03:49 quillian wrote:
After trying it a bit I love this all in.
What do you think about templar tech with this? I find colossus build too slow to reinforce, so after the first 3 or 4 switching to archon might be better?
Edit : also wanted to note, one subtle thing you can do is occasionally move a probe to your third and build a pylon. The zerg will usually send some roach ling to shut down your "expansion". This can make them cocky about their advantage and less sure of the all in ( this is speculation on their thinking, but they seem to be more greedy and less ready)
The number of Templar you can have at that time cannot handle roach, or burrowed roach. Also if you go Templar instead of Colossus you need more sentries than you would if you had gone Colossus. To be as efficient as a colossus you need about 3 or more templar, assuming the templar never die.
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If you get that much at 14:30, what happens when he shows up at 12:30? how do you defend for 2 minutes before your actual stuff kicks in?
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On June 01 2012 11:06 Kornholi0 wrote:
If you get that much at 14:30, what happens when he shows up at 12:30? how do you defend for 2 minutes before your actual stuff kicks in?
You sit at your natural choke point, with cannons and sentries, and let his roaches funnel into your colossus lasers of death.
Hey, has anybody here gotten a GG from a Zerg after beating them with this build? I've got none so far after like 4 games >:D
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hey GomJabbar, thi build its similar to the "naniwa's 2 base all in" that you posted several months ago, but waiting more time for the push isn't?
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I actually saw mista use this build in ipl tac i think and it worked almost perfectly. The zerg had a ton of spines, roaches, infestors and 4 bases and nearly died. But mista hesitated for a bit and slowed down. Losing the game. But that game convinced me the build is viable. Nice huild i would say
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EPT
