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Canada151 Posts
I wholeheartedly would like to thank Mista for sharing his build. Regardless of how many people feel the need to discredit or poke holes in the build, for a pro player to share some of his "tech" with the community is extremely refreshing, and I really do thank you for it.
I think there are some main points about the build which a lot of people seem to be forgetting. This is designed to work against the "Roach max" build, and if the Zerg player identifies this build and changes tactics, well, the Protoss is going to have to change up his strategy as well. Builds don't have to be set in stone like a lot of people think. There were many games where I went in thinking I'd be going for some kind of composition but based on what happened during the game, my plan got altered quite dramatically. This is no different.
The second point that I think is a little understated is that even if the Zerg changes tech and goes a different route (depending on how far in he realizes or decides to switch) you still will have a lot of infrastructure and a lot of tech set up and good to go. Protoss has to spend a LOT of money on upgrades and structures, and with that out of the way, even if you're taking a late expo you won't have to be spending that money on all these upgrades because they're already done. I feel like a lot of casters in vods will overemphasize advantages in game based solely on economy... When tech in itself can be a really key advantage. Once you have invested in all these upgrades and tech, that's money you (hopefully) won't need to spend again and can now spend on bulking up your army.
So to make a long story short, I really like this build and I'm very grateful that Mista chose to share it. It is definitely a niche build, but a well needed one. Also the thing is, a single build like this has the potential to shift metagames... Once a known "counter" to the roach 11-12min maxout has been absorbed and used by the community, people on the ladder will favor that style less and less... Similar to how the Protoss 3gate expand was phased out due to Zergs adapting and breaking it, if Protoss has learned how to break a Zerg doing this style, it will just fade into memory (hopefully).
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get 2 cannons at front, because i constantly get all ined on ladder, mid diamond to mid master level, they dont even scout my buildings but they roahc ling all in, and usually 2 cannons isn't enough...:/ any advice mista?
User was warned for this post
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my bad: shouldnt of presumed.
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United States8477 Posts
On May 18 2012 12:12 birdseed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 10:28 Fortis-Et-Fidus wrote:
get 2 cannons at front, because i constantly get all ined on ladder, mid diamond to mid master level, they dont even scout my buildings but they roahc ling all in, and usually 2 cannons isn't enough...:/ any advice mista?
User was warned for this post The reason you got warned is because the answer is implied by the OP and you gave bad advice. This build is meant to go against the stephano style roach max which requires 3hatch before gas. This means that if you don't scout 3hatch before gas you should not do this build. If you use the search feature I'd bet you can find threads where people give advice about playing against 2 base zerg (which means faster tech or an all in).
No, the reason he got warned was that he went completely off topic, using this thread as an opportunity to ask Mista an unrelated question.
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Thank you mista! this build is actually pretty good. I'm a mid masters terran player who recently switched to toss : P and after losing 3 games in a row to my mid/top masters zerg friend, (him going stephano style), I found this guide and used it on him, and low and behold it worked. Mindgames played a huge part and a lot came down to his corruptor timing, which was just a tad bit late. All in all, seems to be a good build, thanks for sharing it.
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I wanted to say thanks also, for sharing this build. I saw this post today, watched the replays, and gave it a try. I've walked all over my roach maxing opponents. Thanks!
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Dropping a 2 base protoss player not a good idea.
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With an observer and a prism out is it possible to go for drops without me seeing it ? therefore i will have units ready to defend the drop.
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Hey mista, nice guide u have here.
Looks like a strong build, How do you deal with people who will get like 6/7 festors at home and then basetrade you with roaches?
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If the map sufficiently spacious couldn't the zerg expand to far bases for 4th and 5th. And then just base race you when youtry to attack? Obviously its not a perfect counter but I always thought base race to be a zerg weapon not used well enough
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I think more then 3 replays would be nice...
User was warned for this post. There are 7 replays in the OP......
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The greatest thing about this build imo is that it disguises itself as an immortal all in if you deny scouting properly. So the zerg will be mortally afraid of taking a fast 4th and get those important 8 gas. If a zerg is 100% sure that this build is coming then he could probably just mass drone/spine and take 4th really early so that he can get spine+infestor+corruptor up in time to combat this. But you can't just blindly do that because its an instant loss against any early 2 base timing.
I think zergs are gonna have to have an exact 4th base timing when protoss shows no sign of attacking beyond some kind of time limit.
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Funny how a good pro player, granted - not the most famous, but still good, posts a strategy that he is using against "Stephano style" and we has a bunch of lower end players, homemade experts telling him it's a bad build.
I for one can say this. I had around 65-70% win ratio in pvz for ages, had this matchup in my pocket. Then I had my finals so couldn't play and when I got back to playing, shiiii, my best matchup had gone down the sink. I just couldn't beat Stephano style, currently I have a 80% win rate in pvp, 57% win rate in pvt but only 30% win rate in pvz. I tried this build and it worked perfectly, I denied scouting, he didn't know when I was moving out, he figured out what was going on too late and his blind response to some 10-11 minute push out from me failed him and I crushed him. Then the same happened next game.
Thank you man, you have just saved my pvz.
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United States910 Posts
I've lost to P doing something like this (turtle for 14 or 15 minutes and then pushout with Collosuses or a bunch of immortals) and I generally do the "stephano build". I'm high diamond. This build seems to work on maps where it's easy for Protoss to hold their natural with sentries (e.g., Ohana or Shakuras) but on Daybreak I've been able to kill it with superior production by simply breaking down their wall at around the 12 minute mark and eventually overwhelming their forces before a bunch of colossus can come out. If you're doing the Stephano build you'll have about 60 drones at 8 minutes and a fourth base before the 10 minute mark. If you see a warp prism you can safely drone to 65-70 in case you want to play for the later game. With patience, if you simply keep teching up (and killing or sacrificing supply as needed to replace roaches with infestors and corruptors), it seems like it would be hard for P to march across the map and beat 2 maxed out Zerg armies, but what seems hard and it was is hard in practice are obviously two different things.
Sorry for being lazy, but could you direct me to a game where you beat 2 maxed out zerg armies? (Or could someone who's watched the games do so.) I need to see it to believe it
Edit: I should add that when I lose to the build, i attribute it to the fact that I am idiot who insists on throwing half his army away by trying to force his way up the ramp to the nat on Shakuras and repeatedly losing half of his army until the Protoss is near maxed and I die.
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Pretty strong timing push, but i think it doesn't work twice against the same zerg player (on really high level). Your only little aggression is the warpprism which is not too scary :p. If the zerg sees that you are so extremly passiv for such a long time he can build like no units and play extremly greedy. By the time the push hits he'll have 20 spines, infestors and broodlords out which deals with that push pretty ez.
User was warned for this post
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On May 19 2012 04:40 The_Darkness wrote:I've lost to P doing something like this (turtle for 14 or 15 minutes and then pushout with Collosuses or a bunch of immortals) and I generally do the "stephano build". I'm high diamond. This build seems to work on maps where it's easy for Protoss to hold their natural with sentries (e.g., Ohana or Shakuras) but on Daybreak I've been able to kill it with superior production by simply breaking down their wall at around the 12 minute mark and eventually overwhelming their forces before a bunch of colossus can come out. If you're doing the Stephano build you'll have about 60 drones at 8 minutes and a fourth base before the 10 minute mark. If you see a warp prism you can safely drone to 65-70 in case you want to play for the later game. With patience, if you simply keep teching up (and killing or sacrificing supply as needed to replace roaches with infestors and corruptors), it seems like it would be hard for P to march across the map and beat 2 maxed out Zerg armies, but what seems hard and it was is hard in practice are obviously two different things. Sorry for being lazy, but could you direct me to a game where you beat 2 maxed out zerg armies? (Or could someone who's watched the games do so.) I need to see it to believe it Edit: I should add that when I lose to the build, i attribute it to the fact that I am idiot who insists on throwing half his army away by trying to force his way up the ramp to the nat on Shakuras and repeatedly losing half of his army until the Protoss is near maxed and I die.
I don't think you understand what the point of the build is if you think you can trade units before the actual battle. The whole point is that if you spend money on more than 20 roaches you are most likely not going to afford the gas units you need to defend the push. Also if you stop drones at 60 vs this you won't afford mass spines in time either.
The whole point of this build is that you need to start reacting to it about 3-4 minutes before it hits and it's very hard for a zerg to decide if they should be safe against this build or safe against a normal sentry heavy immortal push.
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EPT
