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On May 15 2012 03:19 TheMista wrote:Thanks for all the comments guys good/bad i really apprieciete them  I will try to play this build a lot in ladder or in customs but unfortunately i get 1/6 games vs zerg in ladder.
lol, still positive among all the hate.
Ok, sounds pretty straightforward. Yes, this build will work against Stephano's general style. No, if you see mutas coming and you don't transition, this build will not work. No, the Op never claimed it would.
Thanks for the build Mista, will try it out tonight.
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do you think if zerg scouts on third by toss by 12 or so minutes when they are maxed on roach and cant attack into you they can just throw up 10 spines and start teching infestors+hive. Im sure enough spines with infestor tech can hold the push
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In almost all maps there is more than 2 ways to get into zergs base to cover all the sides he needs 20-30 spines wich is impossible to do .
You can also fake a 3rd base. and cancel it
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Thanks Mista for the build, and Monk for bringing reason to this thread. Between the two of you there is a lot of valuable information to be gleaned here.
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On May 15 2012 07:05 TheMista wrote:
In almost all maps there is more than 2 ways to get into zergs base to cover all the sides he needs 20-30 spines wich is impossible to do .
You can also fake a 3rd base. and cancel it
so basically you just play the same for the first 10-12 minutes then based on what you scout you either take a third if they go anything but roach max or all in them if they roach max. Sounds pretty solid. Gonna try it out
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On May 15 2012 06:37 moQbara wrote:@oOOoOphidian: Did you even try to look at any of the replays :/ ? Thanks for the build Mista, I'm enjoying your replays atm .
Yes, I did. The opponents didn't play reactively and were often caught trying to tech to brood lords or similarly poor choices against a 2 base all-in. I'll grant that this is a stronger all-in than the stalker/sentry/immortal builds (though the point of those should simply be to take a third base quickly, but some people turn it into a 2 base timing), but it has the same weaknesses. I don't mean to be rude, as I recognize that he's a high level player, but 2 base colossus all-ins are not new and utilizing a warp prism doesn't change what it is weak against.
I'm mostly pointing these things out because the guide is very light on content and doesn't address any of this aside from "colossus kills roaches, hey look I beat stephano once when he went infestor ling." I'm sure more content would help people who both wish to execute this build without losing all the time to people who don't max on roaches and to people who want to beat this all-in.
I do want to point out though that this does accomplish its goal of beating a blind stephano roach player. Stephano himself often neglects scouting to extremes on ladder and in tournaments, so I could understand him losing to this occasionally, along with many players who probably also play that blind style.
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On May 15 2012 05:20 AGIANTSMURF wrote:sick, this should silence all the fools who complained about muta :D
Yes, if there was at least single mutalisk made that match maybe it would silence the fools.
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I dont know why arent all the "omg why are you scrubs criticizing god tier lvl player guide" comments warned, you guys bring absolotely nothing useful to this thread. If you feel like your game knowledge is not good enough to comment, fine, but dont assume all the others are like you. Just because the guide was written by a semi pro player does not mean its flawless. All I am trying to say (and few other guys) is that while it is a great way to punish a blind 12 min roach ling maxout, it will put you behind if the opponent reacts properly, amen.
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On May 15 2012 08:48 syriuszonito wrote:
I dont know why arent all the "omg why are you scrubs criticizing god tier lvl player guide" comments warned, you guys bring absolotely nothing useful to this thread. If you feel like your game knowledge is not good enough to comment, fine, but dont assume all the others are like you. Just because the guide was written by a semi pro player does not mean its flawless. All I am trying to say (and few other guys) is that while it is a great way to punish a blind 12 min roach ling maxout, it will put you behind if the opponent reacts properly, amen.
Reacting properly is the difficult part. Protoss has a ton of all-ins that require different reactions. If everyone could "react properly" then there's no need to play sc2 anymore because it becomes a highly elaborate game of rock-paper-scissors. Just because the guide was written by a semi pro player does not mean its flawless, but has merit behind it and better than all the "guides" created by players who are absolutely crap at the game.
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United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 08:48 syriuszonito wrote:
I dont know why arent all the "omg why are you scrubs criticizing god tier lvl player guide" comments warned, you guys bring absolotely nothing useful to this thread. If you feel like your game knowledge is not good enough to comment, fine, but dont assume all the others are like you. Just because the guide was written by a semi pro player does not mean its flawless. All I am trying to say (and few other guys) is that while it is a great way to punish a blind 12 min roach ling maxout, it will put you behind if the opponent reacts properly, amen.
Because they're not doing anything to detract from the discussion and most are offering words of encouragement to the OP. In contrast, most people criticizing the OP either don't understand the strategy or didn't read too much into the guide. If you have a problem with forum moderation, bring it up in website feedback.
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I just got crushed by this build its pretty strong. I saw that he had no third so I just maxed with infestor roach. My roaches were 2/2 and he just demolished me. I even had a good concave and used up all my infestor energy. To me it seems like a testament to the strength of protoss units, cost effectiveness, especially with upgrades. I think you need really quick broodlords to counter this if you try to roach max you are in trouble, even with that I'm not to sure.
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I'm sorry, I'll try and make this post the least bit redundant, but this is an extremely greedy build which is heavily based on metagaming your opponent, and to top it off, it was the creator of the build that you metagamed, somebody which you can just view 100's of his vods to perfect, and the real joke is that it was on shakuras as well which heavily favours 2 base play. I don't see any practical use in this build other then a gimmicky strategy you can use if you are playing stephano in an actual tournament game.
I don't think this should have been posted at all.
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First let me say thank you for such a great guide, very solid strategy. I won 4 games tonight using it vs zerg, high master on NA. I did not lose once, but I am looking forward to using it all day tomorrow and see how I do. So far very impressive and so funny how mad zerg gets. I guess its cheese now to only take 1 expansion?? LoL, I got some bad BM.
Let me ask you a few questions if you don't mind.
On the game you lost to all those mutas, do you think if you went Phoenix with range upgrade you could have won that one?
And what would you have to see for you to switch over to a regular 3 base play? Do you always execute this vs 3 bases? I would love to hear your thoughts on ways to vary the build or transition out of it depending on certain scenarios.
I will let you know as I play more games if I see any glaring holes or weaknesses but look solid, and is pretty fun. At first I read it and I didn't think it would even work , but I stand corrected. Thanks for guide.
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On May 15 2012 02:23 DeanMalinco wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 02:00 aintthatfunny wrote:
There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. This is much better against that than a fast 2 base allin. If you're going to do a late attack, it would be really silly to stay on 44 probes the whole time, so he gets more, which allows him to support more gateways. 10 is a bit much, but I guess since you are bound to miss some warp ins it's okay. You cannot be serious.... what good is going beyond 44 probes on 2 bases without an intention of taking a 3rd? 10 gates + 3/2 ups + robo/bay/range on 2 bases is just not realistic. You can barely support 8 gates with a gateway all in, and now we want to add in robo with collosi, and 3/2 ups + 2 more gates. I think morrow said it best a few posts ago, might as well just go for the old collosi timing push with a more refined build. Doesn't mean you cannot incorporate warp prism for the "mind games". But that much production with 56 probes on 2 bases is just....
Are you serious? Think about what you are saying please. When you do 1 base colossus allin you stay on 20 probes? Do you stay on 2 gateways, and not get 2 more later? Really?
No you don't, so please stop posting nonsense.
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A very interesting build indeed, I've been looking for builds against Z since its my worse matchup! (Still in top plat lvl)
I will definitely try this out a lot in ladder after I watch you replays and its very nice to see a pro posting guides and beating Stephano as well!
~AJ
I have a question though, how can you figure out how many probes you have? Some games I end up making too many probes (90+) And I dont really know when to stop or know that its the right amount.
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On May 15 2012 10:25 PapiQuAke wrote:
A very interesting build indeed, I've been looking for builds against Z since its my worse matchup! (Still in top plat lvl)
I will definitely try this out a lot in ladder after I watch you replays and its very nice to see a pro posting guides and beating Stephano as well!
~AJ
I have a question though, how can you figure out how many probes you have? Some games I end up making too many probes (90+) And I dont really know when to stop or know that its the right amount.
There is nothing to tell you exactly but you can box probes at each base to know. On one base or two bases you want about 20 probes on minerals on each basy usually, any more you want 16 probes on minerals for each base. Just box each base and when you have enough transfer rally point so you dont get any more.
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^ I see thank you!!
I watch the Mista vs Forsen game and its very hilarious :D
It seems I kinda liked the Warp Prism harass and I will surely start doing this a lot!
Thanks for the great start Mista!!
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as previously said. dont expect zerg to try and kill you when you're doing a 2base allin. they'll defend and kill you once you push.
User was warned for this post
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On May 15 2012 03:04 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:On May 15 2012 01:33 IPA wrote:
Such ingratitude toward a player who is better than 99.875% of the players on TL who decided to come on to the Strategy forum and share his thoughts. Disagreement is fine; to pretend like Mista is a random diamond player whose thoughts and builds have no merit is beyond absurd.
As a Z player, I love reading these threads to see what Ps might do to counter roach-heavy style. Fascinating. Thanks Mista and please don't mind the peanut gallery. judging from the build order making 10 gates robo sitting on 2base for 14:30 then attacking and calls it mindgames he kind of sounds like a diamond player even rotterdams 2base 1stargate 2 robo build makes more sense than this where you force hydras with the stargate and if he goes spire tech instead you focus on only immortals 10gateways are actually not needed for 2base, neither is 56 probes. when koreans 2base its almost always max 16+16+12 ~44 workers. they also always would attack before zerg gets maxed out and 3k in the bank sounds like a build from 2010 The reason you are allowed to spill empty criticism without mod action is because you have the authority bought by competitive results. It's not really about the truth of the statements one way or the other, it's the self-righteous presentation with no pretense at a reasoned argument. If you want to drop by and act that way, people will say "that's Morrow, he must have a point" and they'd be at least half right. If random scrub says exactly the same thing, we have nothing to go on except his point blank contradictions, which are meaningless, and obviously that is useless posting at best, possibly negative posting if it scares away high level posters. We assume posts from high level players have value; again this seems like a simplification fit for people who can't analyze for themselves. Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:cut down gates to a number of 6~7 attack with 2 colossus and range and 1 warp prism and dont go over 44 workers and it seems just better in every way.
the other one is with 3 immortals If the assumption is that the zerg player will be making lings and roaches anyway, there is no reason to move out with a flimsy army that won't accomplish anything specifically other than "hope I win or do enough damage that it was worth it". If you wait for a big ball of units (including some immortals) you will be able to kill zerg units so much more cost effectively, and more importantly preserving your unit count. Anyway the specific comparison doesn't matter, OP build is completely different idea than an asap 2 base timing. @grubby and silvertine and monk (and some others): pleasure to read your posts
lol, you say morrow spills "empty criticism" but you dont address the actual points he makes about the strategy, like the overproduction of gateways.
Even disregarding the names your post is "emptier" than his.
I dont like his harsh tone either but he does also have real criticism and even disregarding the names, his post is lesss "empty" than yours.
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I think this thread has just nailed the coffin in what ever respect some people still had for the strategy section.
People who A) dont know how to read, B) dont know the game C) are plainrght disrespectful to one of the RARE pro players who actually post here, should really refrain from posting on this website.
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