EPT[G] PvZ Anti stephano style build by EmpireMista - Page 6
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic. OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game. So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. | ||
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote: In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants. Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic. OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game. So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. this. the guide is illogical and spreads misinformation. | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
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Random_Guy09
Canada1010 Posts
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Notfragile
Greece713 Posts
On May 15 2012 00:42 m3rciless wrote: In this thread, pro-gamer, who has beaten stephano with his build comes and shares it with TL. Instead of any resident gosus debating the merits of the build one way or the other, random scrubs who aren't even masters tell him its a dumb build without any replays or trying it themselves. what in the flying fuck. this is why no one half decent even bothers to post here anymore. Amen brother! On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote: Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic. If the zerg responds as it is customary theese days, with either fast hive or a max roach/infestor army, then he is dead. The only proper response is mutas and going for spine walls and preparing for a basetrade. Therefore the build works really good sometimes and can fail at other times. What is different with OP's build is the really good upgrades and the warp prism harassment that allows for complete scouting information. Go watch the replays and see that the prism could have scouted 4gas at 8min and 6gas at 9:30. This should make you cancel the build and take a third. You are going to abort 2base play by 9:30. It is not too late by any means. You have immortals and excellently upgraded stalkers that can fight when the mutas arrive. In the case you have aborted at 8min then you don't know if it is muta or infestor but at 9:15 the spire is planted and you should be able to tell your third will be safe from a max roach push. So, to sum up, while I absolutely despise the style of play OP suggests, I can see why the build works. I can see why it is a valid choice of a build, not a go-to build for every game. Do the world a favour and don't start bashing on cannon rushing or proxy rax because you can be scouted and loose the game. Every build serves it's purpose. And this particular one has the purpose of killing a 12min max, a fast hive, a late spire, a ling based defense, a classic roach-hydra, pretty much everything a zerg normally does. It does not do well vs muta/ling or fast spire with infestor/spine/corruptor. It is not a classic deathball build in the sense you can scout and abort (take a 3rd) if there is a spire (or just too many geysers taken). | ||
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:01 Narw wrote: In this thread a pro gamer posts a deathball style build that kinda died off about 6 months ago due to how vulnerable they were to muta style base trades. Point out that this is a build that seems really vulnerable to that. Be called scrub but people that just dont seem to comprahend that some things just magicly dont change. There is nothing in this build that makes it different from those death ball style pushes earlier. Only thing that changed that zerg takes even earlier 3rd those days and will have even more mutas and resources for spines/banes/bases/w/e he wants. Nerchio replay is perfect example of how to deal with it. OP writes that he lost and Nerchio had few mutas left. No, he didnt have few mutas left. He had 24 mutas left and 800 gas and minerals in bank. He woudl't even need to base trade, he could have just prolly morphed as many banes as he could and a move over this and he would still have tons of stuff left with sacrifacing what, 1 base. No you cant just write "i will sit on my 2 bases for 16 mins and then i will well, take 3rd and 4th and max and hope for best" vs muta/bling play. This isnt even wishfull thinking, this is just unrealistic. OP is progamer who won vs stephano who played very badly and had no idea what's comming at him till it was too late. OP faced another pro gamer and was destroyed using this build. Build that died due to being so vulnerable vs the exact thing that happened in that game. So please do refrain from calling me a scrub unless you are actually capable of using your own brain to point flaws which aare obvious. Ty. The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. | ||
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Swagtacular
United States101 Posts
In the cases when the zerg goes muta do you think it would be better to add archon/ht (as you already have the twilight council) and cut back colossus/immortals? | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
As a Z player, I love reading these threads to see what Ps might do to counter roach-heavy style. Fascinating. Thanks Mista and please don't mind the peanut gallery. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:33 IPA wrote: Such ingratitude toward a player who is better than 99.875% of the players on TL who decided to come on to the Strategy forum and share his thoughts. Disagreement is fine; to pretend like Mista is a random diamond player whose thoughts and builds have no merit is beyond absurd. As a Z player, I love reading these threads to see what Ps might do to counter roach-heavy style. Fascinating. Thanks Mista and please don't mind the peanut gallery. judging from the build order making 10 gates robo sitting on 2base for 14:30 then attacking and calls it mindgames he kind of sounds like a diamond player even rotterdams 2base 1stargate 2 robo build makes more sense than this where you force hydras with the stargate and if he goes spire tech instead you focus on only immortals 10gateways are actually not needed for 2base, neither is 56 probes. when koreans 2base its almost always max 16+16+12 ~44 workers. they also always would attack before zerg gets maxed out and 3k in the bank sounds like a build from 2010 cut down gates to a number of 6~7 attack with 2 colossus and range and 1 warp prism and dont go over 44 workers and it seems just better in every way. the other one is with 3 immortals | ||
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zskfrdo
17 Posts
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aintthatfunny
193 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote: judging from the build order making 10 gates robo sitting on 2base for 14:30 then attacking and calls it mindgames he kind of sounds like a diamond player even rotterdams 2base 1stargate 2 robo build makes more sense than this where you force hydras with the stargate and if he goes spire tech instead you focus on only immortals 10gateways are actually not needed for 2base, neither is 56 probes. when koreans 2base its almost always max 16+16+12 ~44 workers. they also always would attack before zerg gets maxed out and 3k in the bank sounds like a build from 2010 cut down gates to a number of 6~7 attack with 2 colossus and range and 1 warp prism and dont go over 44 workers and it seems just better in every way. the other one is with 3 immortals There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. This is much better against that than a fast 2 base allin. If you're going to do a late attack, it would be really silly to stay on 44 probes the whole time, so he gets more, which allows him to support more gateways. 10 is a bit much, but I guess since you are bound to miss some warp ins it's okay. | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:31 chestnutcc wrote: The title says anti stephano style. The muta trend in PvZ seen at the end of last year was 2 base muta transitions, not 3 base, which used to die to Naniwa style colossus pushes. Then Stephano style roaches crushed such timings, and nobody went straight to spire off 3 bases. The OP addresses this fact and says that the zerg has to be at 160 supply or so to defend against the impending push. This is NOT the old 2 base muta into mass expo contain style play. The OP addresses specifically the Stephano roach max out, he states he does not have much experience against mutas, but he presumes that the muta numbers will be limited due to the supply required to fend off this push and offers suggestions on what you can do. tl;dr: He addresses only the stephano style, so why are you shitting all over his build by saying its countered by something else which it doesnt claim to counter and doesnt have much experience against. Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. | ||
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aintthatfunny
193 Posts
On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote: You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. This build is an allin, and all allins rely on your opponent playing badly and responding incorrectly. Nobody has said this is a stable build you can use 5 times in a row vs the same opponent, because that's not the case, it's a nice build for a BoX that abuses the stuff a lot of Zergs do nowadays. | ||
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DeanMalinco
United States43 Posts
On May 15 2012 02:00 aintthatfunny wrote: There are a lot of zergs who blindly and brainlessly just make a lot of roachling. This is much better against that than a fast 2 base allin. If you're going to do a late attack, it would be really silly to stay on 44 probes the whole time, so he gets more, which allows him to support more gateways. 10 is a bit much, but I guess since you are bound to miss some warp ins it's okay. You cannot be serious.... what good is going beyond 44 probes on 2 bases without an intention of taking a 3rd? 10 gates + 3/2 ups + robo/bay/range on 2 bases is just not realistic. You can barely support 8 gates with a gateway all in, and now we want to add in robo with collosi, and 3/2 ups + 2 more gates. I think morrow said it best a few posts ago, might as well just go for the old collosi timing push with a more refined build. Doesn't mean you cannot incorporate warp prism for the "mind games". But that much production with 56 probes on 2 bases is just.... | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On May 14 2012 19:40 Grubby wrote: (In my opinion), there is nothing wrong with a guy who has actual experience playing Europe's GM Zergs, who posts a build that has worked on occasion (even if it's only on occasion!), who tries to offer general help. It's easy to poke holes in builds or call it bad because of your opinion of how the game should be played, but also irrelevant to actual results. Sure, this is not an all-purpose build, but then again no build is. I've seen little appreciation and much theory crafting (some of it probably correct, others wrong). I would be scared to post a build if the reception would be mostly negative. If someone posted a Diamond build without replays, then okay I get it. But he's beaten Stephano. Sure, it's only ladder, but it's something. I want to be one element of grateful reception at least. Thanks for posting this thread Mista ^^ Glad to read this after all the stupid low leagues, smurf trying to show his builds, and haters, from page 1 and 2. Nice build, and good guide/read. Keep it up ^^ Edit.: I just finished reading the whole thread. I can't believe the level of hate i read. The build have flaws? Sure. But if Z plays perfect, will always win ZvP cose from 8:00 and on, Z have much more production, eco and army without to even have to learn several builds, multi task harass or anything. ALL 2 BASE P BUILDS HAVE SOLID COUNTERS FROM Z. So as a 2 base build among many others in the P arsenal, is a good, exotic option (and countereable) | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 15 2012 02:10 Narw wrote: Stephano style is not roach max out. It's flexible build that allows you to transition into what you need upon information you gather. Stephano style is basicly opening on 3 hatches very early against FFE, make a roach warren and evo chamber and then having possibility to pump units if early 2 base push comes/deny 3rd with roaches/lings if it dosnt. If nothing of this happen zerg should not make too many roaches, couse there is no need to. You can easily transition from that opening into muta/ling/bling play (like Nerchio does in a replay that was posted) while still being relativly safe. Note how few sentries this build uses, note how heavy teching is happening. Even if zerg goes muta play there is no way you can punish him, he will punish you for being so greedy while still having superior economy. Thats why this build is what i wrote what it is like 3 times already. Strong all in vs ground based army IF UNSCOUTED. I dont think that builds should be reliable on that coinflip mechanic, and i dont agree with advertising this build as anti stephano style build, couse it's just not true. You should never assume your opponent will play badly/respond incorrectly. This is just not the way to go. Sigh. Let me explain something that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Lots of people have the misconception that "Stephano Style" is just 3 hatch vs FFE into aptly timed roach warren/evo to defend all-ins and pressures into a transition into anything. This is not true and it is an analogous misconception to people who think "Bisu Build" is FFE into stargate. The 3 hatch macro style I previously described is super standard and done by all zergs. What makes it "Stephano style" is that the build he popularized always cuts drones at around 65 and gas at around 4. Then, he masses roaches and lings no matter what, usually maxing between 11-12 minutes. If you watch a lot of his games and his stream, you'll notice that if even his opponent doesn't attack, he will try to trade armies so that your maxed 2 base all-in does not work. This is where this build shines. Usually with a 2 base all-in, you will move out around the 10 minute mark at the latest, maybe a bit later if you're doing a delayed colossi all-in. However, this build vigorously tries to deny overlord scouting and tries to really turtle and move out much later, only when you can trade extremely efficiently versus a zerg who's maxed on only roach ling. Then, you'll be able to defeat the remax as well, being that the zerg only stayed on 65 drones and 4 gas. Yes, your opponent can go mutas off 6 gas and try to base trade and maybe get advantage. Yes, he can go roach corruptor on 6 gas. However, the OP does not market his build as an all-around solid style that can deal with everything. He markets it as a "anti Stephano style", even if it might be a bit blind and relies on him to play this particular style(not a particularly bad bet since it's by far the most popular style atm). | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote: judging from the build order making 10 gates robo sitting on 2base for 14:30 then attacking and calls it mindgames he kind of sounds like a diamond player even rotterdams 2base 1stargate 2 robo build makes more sense than this where you force hydras with the stargate and if he goes spire tech instead you focus on only immortals 10gateways are actually not needed for 2base, neither is 56 probes. when koreans 2base its almost always max 16+16+12 ~44 workers. they also always would attack before zerg gets maxed out and 3k in the bank sounds like a build from 2010 The reason you are allowed to spill empty criticism without mod action is because you have the authority bought by competitive results. It's not really about the truth of the statements one way or the other, it's the self-righteous presentation with no pretense at a reasoned argument. If you want to drop by and act that way, people will say "that's Morrow, he must have a point" and they'd be at least half right. If random scrub says exactly the same thing, we have nothing to go on except his point blank contradictions, which are meaningless, and obviously that is useless posting at best, possibly negative posting if it scares away high level posters. We assume posts from high level players have value; again this seems like a simplification fit for people who can't analyze for themselves. On May 15 2012 01:39 MorroW wrote:cut down gates to a number of 6~7 attack with 2 colossus and range and 1 warp prism and dont go over 44 workers and it seems just better in every way. the other one is with 3 immortals If the assumption is that the zerg player will be making lings and roaches anyway, there is no reason to move out with a flimsy army that won't accomplish anything specifically other than "hope I win or do enough damage that it was worth it". If you wait for a big ball of units (including some immortals) you will be able to kill zerg units so much more cost effectively, and more importantly preserving your unit count. Anyway the specific comparison doesn't matter, OP build is completely different idea than an asap 2 base timing. @grubby and silvertine and monk (and some others): pleasure to read your posts  | ||
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Empire.Mista
Greece150 Posts
I will try to play this build a lot in ladder or in customs but unfortunately i get 1/6 games vs zerg in ladder. | ||
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