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On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:
You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes.
You are correct about hte resoponce, but! this build is a ersponce to defined style. infestor-corrupter is good, but after scouting it, i would mostly go for a 3rd, and push later with templar-tech.
Grubby is absolutely right, there is no one-build-fits-all, It's a matter of understanding and scouting.
Fast 3 hatch - > scout - > roach -> prepare this buld -> scout -> more roach -> execute build
Fast 3 hatch - > scout - > roach -> prepare this buld -> scout -> infestor + spire -> transition into else
And to people saying that stephano made little roach - > 4 colossi with 3 attack and descent micro can vaporize insane amount of roaches, they don't counter this. (well maybe if you make 300/200 of them =))
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On May 14 2012 21:05 gitarrojoe wrote:
you dont have an observer with the army? if you push and he has burrow that would be sad.
He probably won't have tunneling claws and if you scout it you can just add an observer afterwards. I don't even see how unburrow could possibly help against that deathball. The whole idea is to defend behind the spines using fungals+corruptors. Unburrowing a ton of roaches right onto his army isn't going to do anything.
Its a strong 2 base all in but there is no reason a good zerg should lose agaisnt this if he goes roaches.
Good zergs lose to this constantly.
Stephano made a ton of zerglings blindly, that was kind of unfortunate for him, but that replay is not stephano style
People keep pointing this out but roaches aren't even what you aim for against this composition. They will be taking up a significant amount of food(at a time when you will be maxed) and gas and won't be that useful. You're just trying to hold your ground with spines/fungals and then you have the corruptors to snipe colossi when they try to siege the spines. Any roaches that cross the line will just get obliterated so they aren't that relevant.
What if a zerg has 4 bases and just builds spines all over the place and his army goes for base trade?
That could be told to a zerg in virtually any situation. Just out mine him the opponent, get tons of spines and base trade if he attacks. Unfortunately it's not that simple.
you are commiting to this build blindly after builduing the second forge and robo bay, but then your warp prism is just on the way and so you are not sure if the zerg goes for roaches.
Zerg can not just blindly go three bases without roaches. Any sort of warp gate timing would murder it.
On May 14 2012 21:13 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:
You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes.
You are correct about hte resoponce, but! this build is a ersponce to defined style
It's the normal transition from Stephano's build when you don't see a third. So I am responding to the defined style being discussed.
infestor-corrupter is good, but after scouting it, i would mostly go for a 3rd, and push later with templar-tech.
There's no way you could do that off of this build but in general that's a logical reaction.
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On May 14 2012 20:49 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 20:30 TheMista wrote:If the zerg scouts the bay you make only 1 collosus and you can skip the upgrades aswell , if he goes mutalisk he will already have gone 160 if not 180 pop with roach ling to defend the push. You have 2 choices 1) You push 2) You get a 3rd and deal with mutalisk with your 3-2 stalkers vs his 0-0 mutalisk and you have your 4-5 immortlas and 1 collosus with cannons to defend your 3rd get 200/200 get 4rth base and push at 16-17 min Since now only nerchio did mutalisk against me and i lost the game leaving him with some mutalisk alive and no bases. the rest massed 200/200 roaches and infestors and lost badly. I also lost some games vs bane drops but i also had bad unit control in that games. http://drop.sc/179497 Loss vs Nerchio (Mutalisk) 1) I dont think a push with 1 colossus and gateway army is gonna work against a maxed zerg 2) Ofc you can but its going to be a delayed third and imo you are gonna end up behind @Silvertine this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it?
Did you even watch the replays?
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On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it? I'm not questioning the build, it's brilliant. It's the fact that you want to transition to mutas from it that's crazy. Going mutas is ideal off of 2 bases, you only have one area to defend with spines(as this is the only possible way to defend going mutas) and you can bank up gas since you're not using it on roaches to defend. When you attempt going mutas off of 3 base it gets very messy. You will be on 4 gases instead of 6 and absolutely all of it with have gone into upgrades and the mass of roaches you've begun building up. So you have no gas banked and you have to wait for 2 geysers to finish to really start harvesting the amount you need. You should have a decent amount of 0-0 mutas(maybe 16), roaches, lings, and spines against his deathball with 3-2 upgrades. There's no question that it will be absolutely demolished in a direct battle and remaxing won't even be relevant because he'll survive with 170+ food. The only option you would have is base trading and I don't think that's very practical for reasons I gave earlier. You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes.
Why would I need to commit to mass roaches? I think its safe to assume that you are going to get the overseer scout at 10 min. Once you see the robo bay you can instantly take extra 2 gases, drone to the optimal number and cut the roach production. Till 14:30 you are gonna be maxed with more than 20 1-0 mutas, lings and few roaches. While I am not sure if you can win a direct fight with some spines behind, basetrade scenario looks like an easy win.
@Douillos
yes did watch the one vs nerchio and he basically did what I just said, worked fine?
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On May 14 2012 21:28 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it? I'm not questioning the build, it's brilliant. It's the fact that you want to transition to mutas from it that's crazy. Going mutas is ideal off of 2 bases, you only have one area to defend with spines(as this is the only possible way to defend going mutas) and you can bank up gas since you're not using it on roaches to defend. When you attempt going mutas off of 3 base it gets very messy. You will be on 4 gases instead of 6 and absolutely all of it with have gone into upgrades and the mass of roaches you've begun building up. So you have no gas banked and you have to wait for 2 geysers to finish to really start harvesting the amount you need. You should have a decent amount of 0-0 mutas(maybe 16), roaches, lings, and spines against his deathball with 3-2 upgrades. There's no question that it will be absolutely demolished in a direct battle and remaxing won't even be relevant because he'll survive with 170+ food. The only option you would have is base trading and I don't think that's very practical for reasons I gave earlier. You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes. Why would I need to commit to mass roaches?
At that point you have already begun to mass roaches, probably to about 140 food at least. They are needed in order to build up to the max 12 minute push and also to defend vs a wide variety of earlier protoss timings.
I think its safe to assume that you are going to get the overseer scout at 10 min. Once you see the robo bay you can instantly take extra 2 gases, drone to the optimal number and cut the roach production. Till 14:30 you are gonna be maxed with more than 20 1-0 mutas, lings and few roaches. While I am not sure if you can win a direct fight with some spines behind, basetrade scenario looks like an easy win.
20 1-0 mutas at 14:30 when you're totally gas starved and only just began harvesting 6 gas at around 11 min? I don't think so. And again, it doesn't matter because any amount of mutas is going to get ravaged by a 3-2 deathball. This leaves you only the option of base trading which isn't practical for reasons I've already given.
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Looks interesting... Gonna try it for sure 
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On May 14 2012 21:41 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 21:28 syriuszonito wrote:On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it? I'm not questioning the build, it's brilliant. It's the fact that you want to transition to mutas from it that's crazy. Going mutas is ideal off of 2 bases, you only have one area to defend with spines(as this is the only possible way to defend going mutas) and you can bank up gas since you're not using it on roaches to defend. When you attempt going mutas off of 3 base it gets very messy. You will be on 4 gases instead of 6 and absolutely all of it with have gone into upgrades and the mass of roaches you've begun building up. So you have no gas banked and you have to wait for 2 geysers to finish to really start harvesting the amount you need. You should have a decent amount of 0-0 mutas(maybe 16), roaches, lings, and spines against his deathball with 3-2 upgrades. There's no question that it will be absolutely demolished in a direct battle and remaxing won't even be relevant because he'll survive with 170+ food. The only option you would have is base trading and I don't think that's very practical for reasons I gave earlier. You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes. Why would I need to commit to mass roaches? At that point you have already begun to mass roaches, probably to about 140 food at least. They are needed in order to build up to the max 12 minute push and also to defend vs a wide variety of earlier protoss timings. Show nested quote +I think its safe to assume that you are going to get the overseer scout at 10 min. Once you see the robo bay you can instantly take extra 2 gases, drone to the optimal number and cut the roach production. Till 14:30 you are gonna be maxed with more than 20 1-0 mutas, lings and few roaches. While I am not sure if you can win a direct fight with some spines behind, basetrade scenario looks like an easy win. 20 1-0 mutas at 14:30 when you're totally gas starved and only just began harvesting 6 gas at around 11 min? I don't think so. And again, it doesn't matter because any amount of mutas is going to get ravaged by a 3-2 deathball. This leaves you only the option of base trading which isn't practical for reasons I've already given.
Did you watch the replay vs nerchio?
-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min
-You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas
-I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario
I advise you to watch the replay vs nerchio, he counters the build pretty damn good (ends up with 30+ mutas before attack comes to his base, there is no way toss can split his army to fight that many mutas with ling support)
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-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min
That's totally standard in the build.
-You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas
You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic.
I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario
How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous.
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On May 14 2012 22:08 Silvertine wrote:That's totally standard in the build. Show nested quote +-You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic. How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous.
Sorry to say but you are completely wrong in every point you made, test it in a custom game if you are not able to see it otherwise.
User was warned for this post
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On May 14 2012 22:21 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:08 Silvertine wrote:-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min That's totally standard in the build. -You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic. I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous. Sorry to say but you are completely wrong in every point you made, test it in a custom game if you are not able to see it otherwise.
You haven't tested it, you're just making baseless assumptions.
I'll take it you just conceded all the other points. It doesn't seem like you really have any substantive argument against this particular build. Anyone can come into the thread and simply go "Oh he went colossi? OK go mutas and base trade". It's bronze league logic that does nothing to further the discussion.
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the zerg army, mass roach witch corrupter +queens/spines can hold this push! no infestors, and base trade is practical because zerg just needs to kill pylons and nexus to dmg economy so hard he can just turn around and kill the army if it pushes into the spines. if protoss splitts the army correctly zerg hast to splitt aswelll, but it is still managable. i dont think this is a counter to stephanos build, its just an option that can work if not scoutet. and that is stephanos thing, to not scout, thats gonna bite him in this situation. however the build stephano plays can transition into a decent defending position against this all in.
to point out why i think the zerg army can hold. one of the replays is on shakuras and the zerg playes with spines and corrupters. although he loses a lot of units while running around on the map he is able to nearly defend the push. if u want the corrupters they kill 1 collosus and then turn away, big mismicro!. if the zerg player wouldve flanked from the third and natural with spines and corrupter support he couldve crushed the attacked. another factor agaisnt the zerg, was the fact he just took a 4th base instead of make more spines/drones early on.
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On May 14 2012 22:26 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:21 syriuszonito wrote:On May 14 2012 22:08 Silvertine wrote:-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min That's totally standard in the build. -You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic. I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous. Sorry to say but you are completely wrong in every point you made, test it in a custom game if you are not able to see it otherwise. You haven't tested it, you're just making baseless assumptions. I'll take it you just conceded all the other points. It doesn't seem like you really have any substantive argument against this particular build. Anyone can come into the thread and simply go "Oh he went colossi? OK go mutas and base trade". It's bronze league logic that does nothing to further the discussion.
I dont need to do testings to know that 140+ food at 10:00 is an unrealistic scenario and that by collecting 6 gases for 4 mins you get enough to build a spire, weapon upgrade and 20+ mutas. I think in previous posts I exaplained why I think this build is not the best one, hell, you even got a replay vs nerchio to proove it. Dunno about your league but its you who looks closer to bronze.
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On May 14 2012 18:48 Odal wrote:
If you accidentally put too much into a roach based army earlier in the game, you simply can't gather enough resources to stop it afterwards. It's incredibly frustrating. ZvP is so boring.
What do you expect Protoss players to do? If you max out on Tier 1 units with the intention of denying a third base, there are two natural counters, either find a way to go the third base up earlier or later so it is safe vs the max Tier 1 push or sit on two bases and build a nasty deathball and all-in because your opponent invested so much in maxing out on early game units.
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On May 14 2012 22:33 gitarrojoe wrote:
the zerg army, mass roach witch corrupter +queens/spines can hold this push! no infestors
That's completely ridiculous. What are you basing that off of?
and base trade is practical because zerg just needs to kill pylons and nexus to dmg economy so hard he can just turn around and kill the army if it pushes into the spines
Of course, that would be the aim in any base trade scenario. The problem is getting to the nexus. And base trading is going to be 100x more difficult for you since you chose roaches instead of lings/muta to do it with. It's far more difficult to have just roaches out on the map waiting to counter because of their inferior mobility. Any significant amount would be at risk to the protoss simply chasing them down with blink+colossi support.
Again, basically any situation with a zerg you can say "well just base trade". It isn't that simple in practice and you have to actually explain why you think it would work in a specific situation.
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On May 14 2012 21:03 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +this is the most standard opening from zerg atm, could you please explain to me why would it be so horrible to transition from it? I'm not questioning the build, it's brilliant. It's the fact that you want to transition to mutas from it that's crazy. Going mutas is ideal off of 2 bases, you only have one area to defend with spines(as this is the only possible way to defend going mutas) and you can bank up gas since you're not using it on roaches to defend. When you attempt going mutas off of 3 base it gets very messy. You will be on 4 gases instead of 6 and absolutely all of it with have gone into upgrades and the mass of roaches you've begun building up. So you have no gas banked and you have to wait for 2 geysers to finish to really start harvesting the amount you need. You should have a decent amount of 0-0 mutas(maybe 16), roaches, lings, and spines against his deathball with 3-2 upgrades. There's no question that it will be absolutely demolished in a direct battle and remaxing won't even be relevant because he'll survive with 170+ food. The only option you would have is base trading and I don't think that's very practical for reasons I gave earlier. You seem to have a respect for standard play, so why not choose the standard response? Infestor/spine/corruptor is almost always the reaction to 2 base colossi pushes.
You dont seem to understand what you are writing about. Muta strenght is exactly that you wont have to engage his deathball 3-2. Stephano style opening is so good becouse it is flexible and capable on switching to mass muta. The whole gas you invest into roach tech is 100 (for +1) and 100 for speed (which you can actually cut but its damn risky unless you know he is doing deathball turtle thing). You are at that point at 3 bases and have almost perfect drone saturation. Infestor corruptor + spines is propably even more gas intense then muta switch.
Now about the actualy build - it seems very strong, if its not identified correctly. It also seems to not be so good on bigger maps with loads of surface area, couse with that ammount of gas invested into tech + robo tech you wont seem to have reasonable ammount of sentries unless you want to delay your push even more.
Also i think roach/bane (with either drops or FEW infestor's support) or that early 3 base baneling bust would be quite strong versus this considering how much you invest in early tech.
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On May 14 2012 22:42 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:33 gitarrojoe wrote:
the zerg army, mass roach witch corrupter +queens/spines can hold this push! no infestors That's completely ridiculous. What are you basing that off of? Show nested quote +and base trade is practical because zerg just needs to kill pylons and nexus to dmg economy so hard he can just turn around and kill the army if it pushes into the spines Of course, that would be the aim in any base trade scenario. The problem is getting to the nexus. And base trading is going to be 100x more difficult for you since you chose roaches instead of lings/muta to do it with. It's far more difficult to have just roaches out on the map waiting to counter because of their inferior mobility. Any significant amount would be at risk to the protoss simply chasing them down with blink+colossi support. Again, basically any situation with a zerg you can say "well just base trade". It isn't that simple in practice and you have to actually explain why you think it would work in a specific situation.
Okay so you are complaining about people making false assumptions while you're just doing the same...
as i mentioned one replay shows how strong roach corrupter with spines can be.
base trade is a tough spot for both players, so lets say you are in a BoX and you want to take a game with this style, but zerg players figured out that a base trade can still lead to a win. the protoss player is not in the comanding position anymore and his all in stategy has a lower percentage (you need to be lucky) to suceed. thats a reason to not all in!
a base trade could work if the protoss has no observer to watch map and if he doesnt splitt his army, so zerg can build up a number of spine crawlers. if protoss goes for the main, just make them at the third. now if the zerg player reads the build correctly he will already have spines up at both ramps or both expansions. u can see that in the replay. again there is no observer, so if protoss splitts his army some roaches could attack a part of the army
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Super excited to study this - ive been experimenting with two base robo/immortal all ins again since roach style has become so popular. Wonder when zergs will switch back to muta oO
Thanks for this guide Mista!
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Would you mind adding the approximate timings to the elements in your build order. Either in supply count or game time. Preferably game time.
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Looks A+ man, will be giving this a try.
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United States8476 Posts
Thanks for the build, Mista! It's always nice to have pros contributing to the forums.
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EPT
