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On May 14 2012 22:36 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:26 Silvertine wrote:On May 14 2012 22:21 syriuszonito wrote:On May 14 2012 22:08 Silvertine wrote:-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min That's totally standard in the build. You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic. I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous. Sorry to say but you are completely wrong in every point you made, test it in a custom game if you are not able to see it otherwise. You haven't tested it, you're just making baseless assumptions. I'll take it you just conceded all the other points. It doesn't seem like you really have any substantive argument against this particular build. Anyone can come into the thread and simply go "Oh he went colossi? OK go mutas and base trade". It's bronze league logic that does nothing to further the discussion. I dont need to do testings to know that 140+ food at 10:00 is an unrealistic scenario
It isn't at all and that's a fact. My macro isn't great and I do it constantly with this build. I see other Zerg players who stream get to 140 at 10 mins all the time. And the exact number isn't even important. The point was that you have to already be massing up roaches before you scout that this build is coming. Thus you are gas starved, making the muta transition very difficult.
and that by collecting 6 gases for 4 mins you get enough to build a spire, weapon upgrade and 20+ mutas.
No, and it isn't 4 minutes. Again, you're making the very silly assumption that you will immediately scout the robo bay with your overseer. Then even if you do you won't have 200 gas instantly if you are macroing correctly. Then you add on the build time of the spire. Already that has you well past 11 minutes, and that's under the absolute perfect conditions. It could very well be that you don't get that scout off for much longer since he puts such emphasis on denying it with stalkers+placement.
I think in previous posts I exaplained why I think this build is not the best one, hell, you even got a replay vs nerchio to proove it.
It proves nothing you've said..
Dunno about your league but its you who looks closer to bronze.
GM, how about you?
On May 14 2012 22:48 Narw wrote:
You dont seem to understand what you are writing about.
You say, and then give absolutely no contradictions to anything I stated.
Also i think roach/bane (with either drops or FEW infestor's support) or that early 3 base baneling bust would be quite strong versus this considering how much you invest in early tech.
How does the 3 base baneling bust have anything to do with this? It's totally irrelevant, there's absolutely no specific weakness to it in this build.
On May 14 2012 22:52 gitarrojoe wrote:
as i mentioned one replay shows how strong roach corrupter with spines can be.
Why on earth would you not add infestors? Why would you be dumping all of your gas only into only corruptors when the standard choice of defense is both? You have to be able to defend the gate units as well, and that's why you need fungal.
base trade is a tough spot for both players, so lets say you are in a BoX and you want to take a game with this style, but zerg players figured out that a base trade can still lead to a win. the protoss player is not in the comanding position anymore and his all in stategy has a lower percentage (you need to be lucky) to suceed. thats a reason to not all in!
Again, completely baseless.
a base trade could work if the protoss has no observer to watch map and if he doesnt splitt his army, so zerg can build up a number of spine crawlers. if protoss goes for the main, just make them at the third. now if the zerg player reads the build correctly he will already have spines up at both ramps or both expansions. u can see that in the replay. again there is no observer, so if protoss splitts his army some roaches could attack a part of the army
OK, that's wonderful. I've yet to hear an actual explanation as to why base trading, in this particular situation, would be in the zerg's favor. We all understand the advantage of having tons of spines in a base trade. Unfortunately when the opponent has that many colossi and a 3/2 deathball, and you have no fungal, and plenty of your units are counterattacking, they are going to just absolutely walk through them.
Base trading is done either as a last resort or because there is a specific reason that it's advantageous for you. You can't just propose a strategy and then when people explain that it will get murdered say "Well just base trade".
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Can we please stop the useless namecalling and alpha(fe)male behaviour? Obviously this build has pros and cons but that doesnt mean you shpuld look down on those with different opinions.
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On May 14 2012 23:15 Aelonius wrote:
Can we please stop the useless namecalling and alpha(fe)male behaviour? Obviously this build has pros and cons but that doesnt mean you shpuld look down on those with different opinions.
It has nothing to do with being alpha, he challenged me to give my league and I did.
I'm not looking down upon them for having different opinions. What's annoying is that there have been maybe 4 GM players in this thread who have all said that it's a legitimate build. Then people, with no actual argument against it, feel perfectly comfortable shitting all over it.
I have to echo the sentiment of some of the earlier posts in this thread: When this is the type of ignorant reaction you get it dissuades pro players from posting great guides. And that's something that Grubby alluded to:
On May 14 2012 19:40 Grubby wrote:
I've seen little appreciation and much theory crafting (some of it probably correct, others wrong). I would be scared to post a build if the reception would be mostly negative.
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Why all the negativity, especially on the first pages? Considering the amount of complaints by protoss players about the Stephano style zergs in this forum I would have thought that a counter build by a pro would be welcomed with open arms.
I'm not saying you can't give constructive criticism or question things but let's say you are worried about the zerg reacting to it in some specific way: You can ASK how he would scout and handle it rather than basically saying that the build sucks because zerg can do this or that.
I don't play protoss outside of monobattles so I'm not going to pretend to understand everything but this guy obviously knows what he's talking about. Try to keep it positive so that he and others like him will keep contributing.
Of course there's no single build you can just execute blindly without your opponent having a chance to counter it and there shouldn't be unless you play terran. Haha ok that last part was a joke, I have a lot more problems in ZvP than ZvT! The Stephano ZvP style also requires you to scout and react to your opponent or you could die to a whole bunch of stuff as I'm living (dead?) proof of.
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Yes, we should have instead more GM US Tosses like you who tend to claim that Muta play from zerg is best from 2 bases, that Stephano build opening style is having trouble transitioning into mass Mutalisk play and while i wont have gas to do that Muta i can magicly find gas and time and safely just do corruptor infestor spine vs this(could you point me about what exactly will prevent toss from just you know, a moving a bit earlier seeing i have absolutly nothing on map and nothing to harras his main) . Yes dude, im absolutly clueless, i have no real arguments and you are shitting all over me.
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On May 14 2012 23:15 Aelonius wrote:
Can we please stop the useless namecalling and alpha(fe)male behaviour? Obviously this build has pros and cons but that doesnt mean you shpuld look down on those with different opinions.
i agree, sad that some people just cant discuss but tell others they are wrong in everything they say.
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On May 14 2012 23:14 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:36 syriuszonito wrote:On May 14 2012 22:26 Silvertine wrote:On May 14 2012 22:21 syriuszonito wrote:On May 14 2012 22:08 Silvertine wrote:-Its rather unlikely you are gonna have 140+ food at 10 min That's totally standard in the build. You're harvesting 4 gases since 10 min and the extra 2 since 10:30, you can do the math if you dont believe me you will have enough for 20+ mutas You're wrong about that. If you're pumping roaches correctly you won't even have 200 gas instantly for a spire. Then you factor in the spire cost, the high build time of the spire and the fact that you were starting with next to no gas at all. Also, you're assuming that the first overseer won't be denied and will just instantly scout the robo bay. With all the emphasis he puts on denying it that's pretty optimistic. I consider basetrade to be very practical in this scenario How so? His force is so far superior to yours that he can even leave some of it behind to defend. And simply counterattacking the natural isn't so easy. With good build placement, force fields and some stalkers it's not going to be easy for lings and mutas to just crash in. A strategy where you have to bank on the base trade going your way is ridiculous. Sorry to say but you are completely wrong in every point you made, test it in a custom game if you are not able to see it otherwise. You haven't tested it, you're just making baseless assumptions. I'll take it you just conceded all the other points. It doesn't seem like you really have any substantive argument against this particular build. Anyone can come into the thread and simply go "Oh he went colossi? OK go mutas and base trade". It's bronze league logic that does nothing to further the discussion. I dont need to do testings to know that 140+ food at 10:00 is an unrealistic scenario It isn't at all and that's a fact. My macro isn't great and I do it constantly with this build. I see other Zerg players who stream get to 140 at 10 mins all the time. And the exact number isn't even important. The point was that you have to already be massing up roaches before you scout that this build is coming. Thus you are gas starved, making the muta transition very difficult. Show nested quote +and that by collecting 6 gases for 4 mins you get enough to build a spire, weapon upgrade and 20+ mutas. No, and it isn't 4 minutes. Again, you're making the very silly assumption that you will immediately scout the robo bay with your overseer. Then even if you do you won't have 200 gas instantly if you are macroing correctly. Then you add on the build time of the spire. Already that has you well past 11 minutes, and that's under the absolute perfect conditions. It could very well be that you don't get that scout off for much longer since he puts such emphasis on denying it with stalkers+placement. Show nested quote +I think in previous posts I exaplained why I think this build is not the best one, hell, you even got a replay vs nerchio to proove it. It proves nothing you've said.. GM, how about you? Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:48 Narw wrote:
You dont seem to understand what you are writing about. You say, and then give absolutely no contradictions to anything I stated. Show nested quote +Also i think roach/bane (with either drops or FEW infestor's support) or that early 3 base baneling bust would be quite strong versus this considering how much you invest in early tech. How does the 3 base baneling bust have anything to do with this? It's totally irrelevant, there's absolutely no specific weakness to it in this build. Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 22:52 gitarrojoe wrote:
as i mentioned one replay shows how strong roach corrupter with spines can be. Why on earth would you not add infestors? Why would you be dumping all of your gas only into only corruptors when the standard choice of defense is both? You have to be able to defend the gate units as well, and that's why you need fungal. Show nested quote +base trade is a tough spot for both players, so lets say you are in a BoX and you want to take a game with this style, but zerg players figured out that a base trade can still lead to a win. the protoss player is not in the comanding position anymore and his all in stategy has a lower percentage (you need to be lucky) to suceed. thats a reason to not all in! Again, completely baseless. Show nested quote +a base trade could work if the protoss has no observer to watch map and if he doesnt splitt his army, so zerg can build up a number of spine crawlers. if protoss goes for the main, just make them at the third. now if the zerg player reads the build correctly he will already have spines up at both ramps or both expansions. u can see that in the replay. again there is no observer, so if protoss splitts his army some roaches could attack a part of the army OK, that's wonderful. I've yet to hear an actual explanation as to why base trading, in this particular situation, would be in the zerg's favor. We all understand the advantage of having tons of spines in a base trade. Unfortunately when the opponent has that many colossi and a 3/2 deathball, and you have no fungal, and plenty of your units are counterattacking, they are going to just absolutely walk through them. Base trading is done either as a last resort or because there is a specific reason that it's advantageous for you. You can't just propose a strategy and then when people explain that it will get murdered say "Well just base trade".
Well that says a lot about US gm. I am 1.1k master eu
Back to topic, I even bothered to play a custom game. Result is 21 mutas with +1 at 14:30 after massing roaches till 10 min.
As someone already stated the whole point about getting mutas is getting mobility and a possiblity to basetrade. I dont know your reasons to be afraid of basetrading with huge muta flock and lings but thats one of the biggest benefits of this style
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On May 14 2012 23:39 syriuszonito wrote:
Back to topic, I even bothered to play a custom game. Result is 21 mutas with +1 at 14:30 after massing roaches till 10 min.
I'm positive that you didn't make nearly enough roaches, seeing as that you have had so much confusion over why they're even necessary. How many did you have?
I'll just repeat this yet again since you're so unwilling to respond to it: You're making the very silly assumption that you will immediately scout the robo bay with your overseer. Then even if you do you won't have 200 gas instantly if you are macroing correctly. Then you add on the build time of the spire. Already that has you well past 11 minutes, and that's under the absolute perfect conditions. It could very well be that you don't get that scout off for much longer since he puts such emphasis on denying it with stalkers+placement.
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On May 14 2012 23:39 syriuszonito wrote:
...
Just stop, please.
Nevermind what ladder rank you are, ranting isn't contributing this thread, nor it contibutes community overall.
So again, please stop.
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Protosses complain about Stephano style, guy beats the maestro (too soon?^^) himself, random guys bitch around his strat is bad?
WTF?
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Hehe funny  I just downloaded the replays at drop.sc and also saw the game vs Nerchio you lost. But I think it´s a pretty solid build!
Greetings.
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Can't he just basetrade you with mutas and win easily?
Like the game vs nerchio, I don't think it's possible to go 2base all-in in that scenario.
User was warned for this post
Edit: O sorry mr.moderator, I didn't realize pointing out a critical weakness which the op doesn't talk about at all and loses to in one of his replays is considered bad posting. It's quite ridiculous that all these people are getting warned for posting criticism that is 100% correct, do you want us to just say he's right because he plays for empire?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 14 2012 23:44 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 23:39 syriuszonito wrote:
Back to topic, I even bothered to play a custom game. Result is 21 mutas with +1 at 14:30 after massing roaches till 10 min. I'm positive that you didn't make nearly enough roaches, seeing as that you have had so much confusion over why they're even necessary. How many did you have? I'll just repeat this yet again since you're so unwilling to respond to it: You're making the very silly assumption that you will immediately scout the robo bay with your overseer. Then even if you do you won't have 200 gas instantly if you are macroing correctly. Then you add on the build time of the spire. Already that has you well past 11 minutes, and that's under the absolute perfect conditions. It could very well be that you don't get that scout off for much longer since he puts such emphasis on denying it with stalkers+placement.
total of 36 roaches at 11 min (31 at 10:00)
The assumption to get the robo bay scout at 10 min is not silly, in fact you can get the overseer scout much earlier so please dont bitch about it. If you would bother to watch the rep you could notice that he does not have enough units to stop the scout.
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What if the crab people attack your base?
Seriously, the OP has said a hundred times that you will scout any such transition with your prism/obs and can prepare accordingly. You have a twilight council and +2/+2 on the way before the spire morphs and can just take a third.
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On May 14 2012 23:44 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 23:39 syriuszonito wrote:
Back to topic, I even bothered to play a custom game. Result is 21 mutas with +1 at 14:30 after massing roaches till 10 min. I'm positive that you didn't make nearly enough roaches, seeing as that you have had so much confusion over why they're even necessary. How many did you have? I'll just repeat this yet again since you're so unwilling to respond to it: You're making the very silly assumption that you will immediately scout the robo bay with your overseer. Then even if you do you won't have 200 gas instantly if you are macroing correctly. Then you add on the build time of the spire. Already that has you well past 11 minutes, and that's under the absolute perfect conditions. It could very well be that you don't get that scout off for much longer since he puts such emphasis on denying it with stalkers+placement.
Overseer can easily arrive at 9-9:30 mins mark and at that time there are 2-3 stakers on map, if not warp prism can be spotted also around 9. Poke at front can spot immortal and barely any gateway units. Those things add.
Just becouse someone writes build is based on denaying scouting dosnt means its optimized around denaying scouting.
Strong 2 base all in IF unscouted vs ground army, unless proved other way by replay of how this is dealing vs competent muta play i will assume this dosnt deal with muta play.
On May 15 2012 00:06 chestnutcc wrote:
What if the crab people attack your base?
Seriously, the OP has said a hundred times that you will scout any such transition with your prism/obs and can prepare accordingly. You have a twilight council and +2/+2 on the way before the spire morphs and can just take a third.
OP also wrote that only time someone (nerchio) did muta play vs him he lost.
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In the game vs stephano, it wasn't really the mass upgrade roach play people are complaining about. he had 150 zerglings, and no ranged attack upgrades. grats on beating him, but none of the games I've watched address the maxed roach army.
edti: watched vortx game, features mass roach. Seems like your advantage is in upgrades. None of these zergs have been past 1/1 when you hit. is this by design or a failing on their part?
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On May 14 2012 20:30 TheMista wrote:If the zerg scouts the bay you make only 1 collosus and you can skip the upgrades aswell , if he goes mutalisk he will already have gone 160 if not 180 pop with roach ling to defend the push. You have 2 choices 1) You push 2) You get a 3rd and deal with mutalisk with your 3-2 stalkers vs his 0-0 mutalisk and you have your 4-5 immortlas and 1 collosus with cannons to defend your 3rd get 200/200 get 4rth base and push at 16-17 min Since now only nerchio did mutalisk against me and i lost the game leaving him with some mutalisk alive and no bases. the rest massed 200/200 roaches and infestors and lost badly. I also lost some games vs bane drops but i also had bad unit control in that games. http://drop.sc/179497 Loss vs Nerchio (Mutalisk)
This is what the OP wrote. He didn't say he lost to mutas, he said the one time someone went mutas against him, it happened to be a loss. He also provides suggestions.
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In this thread, pro-gamer, who has beaten stephano with his build comes and shares it with TL. Instead of any resident gosus debating the merits of the build one way or the other, random scrubs who aren't even masters tell him its a dumb build without any replays or trying it themselves. what in the flying fuck. this is why no one half decent even bothers to post here anymore.
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Not my style of play but thanks a lot for sharing, Mista
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On May 15 2012 00:42 m3rciless wrote:
In this thread, pro-gamer, who has beaten stephano with his build comes and shares it with TL. Instead of any resident gosus debating the merits of the build one way or the other, random scrubs who aren't even masters tell him its a dumb build without any replays or trying it themselves. what in the flying fuck. this is why no one half decent even bothers to post here anymore.
+20
User was warned for this post
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EPT
