EPTOn June 10 2012 16:22 PoYo! wrote:
Just qualified for IeSF world championship with your hotkey setup! :D
Just qualified for IeSF world championship with your hotkey setup! :D
PoYo[G] TheCore Lite - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 25
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Akinokaze
Australia326 Posts
PoYo | ||
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j.k.l
112 Posts
I can't use thecore cause taking out keys is out of the question for me. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On September 23 2012 10:29 j.k.l wrote: is this better than darkgrid excluding thecore? I can't use thecore cause taking out keys is out of the question for me. Yup | ||
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j.k.l
112 Posts
Foxy says his layout is better. Omg i wish you guys just made an ultimate layout for non core users | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On September 23 2012 13:11 j.k.l wrote: Foxy says his layout is better. Omg i wish you guys just made an ultimate layout for non core users Take out the keys, or buy a new keyboard, or make your own layout using the data we've collected? You do realize how much time and effort it would take to create and support another layout... right? | ||
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Karnul
United States39 Posts
1. DarkGrid was based off Blizzard's Grid layout, optimized to make more sense, and added a layered camera layout. 2. Chameleon 3. Both Foxy and Jak recommend TheCore over all. TheCore's layout (relative location of control groups, macro, abilities, etc) more closely resembles Chameleon's layout. Edit: My bad for stating my impression as a fact. Corrected for clarity. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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Czarnodziej
Poland624 Posts
On September 25 2012 11:57 JaKaTaK wrote: The home row is based on the idea of using the same home row as the left hand uses in typing. That is a good approach for the typists. Not gamers. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On September 25 2012 23:56 Czarnodziej wrote: That is a good approach for the typists. Not gamers. Agreed. For give my ignorance of years ago. | ||
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enanoretozon
Panama57 Posts
On September 25 2012 23:56 Czarnodziej wrote: That is a good approach for the typists. Not gamers. Actually the SC hotkey usage pattern more closely resembles typing than in other games, particularly those that use WASD or similar groups for movement. The home row also has its advantages over other common setups: easier access to modifier keys than setups based on the number row or the QWERTY row, tactile anchoring via the bumps in F and J, fully employs existing muscle memory. Typing muscle memory should not be underestimated IMO as it is the product of many, many years of repetition. | ||
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Czarnodziej
Poland624 Posts
On September 26 2012 00:58 enanoretozon wrote: Actually the SC hotkey usage pattern more closely resembles typing than in other games, particularly those that use WASD or similar groups for movement. The home row also has its advantages over other common setups: easier access to modifier keys than setups based on the number row or the QWERTY row, tactile anchoring via the bumps in F and J, fully employs existing muscle memory. Typing muscle memory should not be underestimated IMO as it is the product of many, many years of repetition. Go figure. Funny thing is that knowledge was thrown into a trashcan when The Core was developed. And you would be surprised how many people actually place their fingers on asdf jkl; . One hint: not as many as you would think. | ||
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enanoretozon
Panama57 Posts
What I mean is that all these popular layouts are an improvement over the default, but I believe the difference between them is not as big as people seem to make. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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enanoretozon
Panama57 Posts
While the commands might not be in some ideal position, they serve their purpose just as well. After a certain point it becomes more about what your brain decides to do with your keypresses than about the ideal physical mechanic. After using all 3, I honestly don't see how can The Core be so far ahead as you mention. If you could elaborate why, I'd be grateful. | ||
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Karnul
United States39 Posts
I've been thinking of ways to get around this. Either more use of modifiers, or putting non-vital/infrequent actions on my Naga mouse buttons (I don't like having macro hotkeys on the mouse buttons. I use them so often in action cycles, I feel it's best to keep those constantly repeated, cycled actions on the keyboard).), or shift the hand another column over into a SDFG position (but it's a stretch to hit control). I toyed with putting alt, shift and control keys on the side Naga buttons, but stopped before I got used to it because I'm not sure that's tournament legal even though Naga's Synapse drivers allow this by default. Plus if I ever play at a friend's, I would need to have my mouse with me and their permission to install Synapse drivers. | ||
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Czarnodziej
Poland624 Posts
On September 26 2012 23:48 Karnul wrote: I think the main issue that TheCore gets around is that there aren't enough keys around the standard left hand position to hotkey *everything* efficiently. False assumption proven wrong many times. | ||
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FoxyMayhem
624 Posts
But it's not 90%, it's 40%, because, as we discovered when developing TheCore, there is so much more to improve than we had even first realized. It's drilling 3 miles deep, it's using optimizations impossible anywhere else on the keyboard, it's customization for each race and hand size. We eventually hit diminishing returns, but we drilled a lot deeper before we got there. I worked on Darkgrid for hundreds of hours, it was very dear to me. TheCore turned out to be so much better, I hardly think about Darkgrid anymore, despite how invested I was. It's old, clunky news. | ||
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enanoretozon
Panama57 Posts
On September 27 2012 04:07 FoxyMayhem wrote: Enanoretozon, I'd agree with you and diminish returns normally, and that is true to some extent. But we need to frame this differently, because it's not just refining a few things standard or Chameleon did well, it's reinventing. It's like when you're drilling to oil, standard is 1/4 mile underground, Darkgrid/Chameleon go much deeper, like 1 1/2 miles. That's the 90% you're talking about. But it's not 90%, it's 40%, because, as we discovered when developing TheCore, there is so much more to improve than we had even first realized. It's drilling 3 miles deep, it's using optimizations impossible anywhere else on the keyboard, it's customization for each race and hand size. We eventually hit diminishing returns, but we drilled a lot deeper before we got there. I worked on Darkgrid for hundreds of hours, it was very dear to me. TheCore turned out to be so much better, I hardly think about Darkgrid anymore, despite how invested I was. It's old, clunky news. I understand what your're saying but I'd like to hear some specifics. So far it has all been kinda hand-wavy, with all due respect. I've been through the design and development documents and the videos. I'd like to be convinced through reason and argument that TC's way is as far ahead as you guys say. I'll start by listing some points I believe show that the gap is not that big: I see some improvements in ergonomy with the whole angle the keyboard deal. I see some refinements, like you build a depot with ['][J] which gives a keypress to opposite fingers. That also exists in Chameleon where you press [V][A]. Maybe TC expands those patterns to other combinations, that's cool. The layered cameras are in Cham and DG. The control group/ability separation exists in Cham and DG. Thumb for modifiers. I do that with ALT in Cham for the cameras and I never had any problems using modifiers the others with my pinky. I can hit shift and control reliably. I've been doing it for over 30 years while typing and almost as many years while gaming. I understand that the rep analysis yielded some interesting data on the frequency of command usage and for example shift being the most used one. However if one can hit shift reliably, accurately and without an inordinate amount of hand stress the benefit of having it on the thumb diminishes. After all one should take frequent breaks and strech one's hands, that's basic good practice with all work one does with one's hands, be it playing the piano, guitar, typing or issuing build commands. I'd argue that unless one sets out to play many hours without breaks having shift on the thumb is not that big of a deal. Both DG and Cham provide access to every command I can think of not further than 1 key stretch away with the exception in Cham being Y/N for lift/land. I can use all 8 cameras, all 10 groups, every unit ability. What else is there? | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
A key that is beneath your finger is 4-5x faster to press than one that is 1 key distance away. Also, the thumb on the modifiers and the home key position create the highest number of fast to press keys than either darkgrid or chameleon. This makes everything you do faster. We'll be making explaination videos on why TheCore is more efficient with the release of 1.0. We're working as hard as we can to get everything out asap, but there is a lot of work involved, and we appreciate your patience. | ||
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enanoretozon
Panama57 Posts
Ok, let's take a look at speed: Since you've done more measurements I shall take your word that pressing a key under the finger is 4x faster than having to move 1 over. Every layout has 5 keys that are resting keys, ie the home row where you don't have to move to press them plus something you press with your thumb. This applies to The Core as well with JIOP. In Cham that's ASDF. For the sake of making the point let's ignore for now that repeat actions (ie building several things consecutively) get a partial benefit of resting keys after the 1st action. Now let's take a look at the top 20 abilities for terran according to your data document: 315324 A J Attack object 143917 A J Marine 93206 S I SCV 48063 V ' Build Basic 25624 A J MULE 24907 S I Marauder 21521 A J Supply Depot 21062 S I Use Stimpack 19911 Y K Lift off / Land 11440 S J Siege Tank 11089 S I Return cargo 10508 Z M Hold position 10161 S J Medivac 9996 A I Hellion 9995 S I Siege Mode 9674 S J Lower Supply Depot 8581 V K Unload 8545 2 H Stop 8028 Q M PF 7827 W M Scanner Sweep The first column is the action count, 2nd is the default Chameleon hotkey, 3rd is The Core. Take into account that of these 20 the top 10 comprise 88.5% of the total and the top 5 76.4%. That's a very steep drop. Now let's see how many of those top 20 are in a resting key for each: 13 for each layout. Both layouts have the 4th more used ability Build Basic on a non-resting key, both roughly at the same distance and angle. Both even seem to use the same finger for the same things. I don't see any significant advantage in that regard for TheCore. Now let's take a look at the thumb for modifiers: Which of the top 10 actions that comprise almost 90% of them typically use a modifier? None really. Sometimes one queue attacks with tanks on banelings but typical micro as far as I've seen does not include a lot of queue-attacking. The rest are training units and some build keys. Putting tanks on siege mode comes at #15 at 1.2% of total actions. Keep in mind we're talking about queue sieging. Regular sieging is as fast on Cham as on TheCore. How much does that 1.2% contribute to my overall apm? Say I have 200 apm of which 100 are keyboard actions, 4x shift-siege grants me 4 extra apm, assuming I really do fill that space with other actions (hopefully non-redundant actions at that). That's a ~2% increase in an ideal case scenario where I'm constantly and perfectly pumping actions, I don't have to wait for units to move, do their animations, etc. To say that an engagement and therefore a game outcome rests on 4x faster *queue sieging* honestly sounds like reaching unless we're talking about the very best pros. Let's take for example Lucifron vs Stephano in the recent WCS where Lucifron was caught unsieged and lost his mech army in Ohana I believe. Even if he would have won that particular engagement due to a blazing 4x shift-siege, there's a whole bunch of things that contributed to his loss in a considerably more significant way, like not building detection. Another thing where modifiers are used is in control group management (adding or redefining). I'm looking at the replay of Taeja vs ForGG final game. Of the 3150 group hotkeys that taeja issued in a 26 minute game only 138 were group management keys. That's about 4.3%. Mvp vs Nerchio last game 23 minutes, 84 out of 3031 that's 2.7%. This is another case of an action being faster having a less significant effect overall than one might think. To conclude: After a point success hangs in one's brain, not the physical mechanics, and I believe that point is vert well within what DarkGrid and Chameleon provide. Not to say TheCore offers no improvement, some people really want to focus and get that last few percent but I argue that for the majority of the people including high level players they get a lot more bang for the buck training their brain rather than their fingers. This last bit is hard to swallow for most normal human beings because it's easier to think that the culprit is in our technique. Diminishing returns. | ||
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