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On May 17 2012 20:36 cosimorondo wrote:
One thing that stands out as unacceptable, for me, personally, about using Drag Scroll, is the need to constantly pick up your mouse* and re-position it in order to keep your mouse in the center of your mouse pad, whereas this is not necessary using the conventional method.
Like I said before, increasing the sensitivity of the drag scroll almost entirely eliminates this problem. At 100% sensitivity, I can accurately swing my camera between my main, nat, third, and usually my forth with a singly mouse swing. Mind you, I also play with a fingertip grip, so this swing is quite small, maybe 4ish inches. If that's not enough for you, use the minimap, or more importantly, you should be using hotkeys. Increasing drag sensitivity eliminates the need for your mouse to hit the edges of your screen, so you can lower your overall sensitivity for increased micro/game accuracy. Increasing edge scroll does increase camera speed, but only makes the severity of the x/y axis jumpiness described by both Kaitlyn and I.
Also, another point for the efficiency of drag scroll, you can easily center your screen on whatever you want to be looking at, and your cursor will stay at the center of the screen, ready to select whatever you need. Again, more efficient then edge scrolling past the object, then having to move the cursor back to the middle of the screen.
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On May 18 2012 03:06 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 19:45 Xenq wrote:
Thanks for the tips re: Center on Current Selection.
When you finish up are you going to release the data you have compiled from the replays? It sounds interesting and I wouldn't mind a look. I should be finishing up the tables today. Please keep in mind, if we do decide to release them for everyone to look at that this is far from final, and starting to make criticisms now would be a waste of time, as we are still in the process of creating this layout. This is super alpha, everything is subject to change. That being said, I think that it would be cool to release the data in a google doc or something  Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 22:50 matrius wrote:Haha, Kaitlin, you are taking JaKaTaK questioning much too personally. However, I agree with you in the logic of it  I think its good that JaKaTaK is trying hard to be objective, and I am definitely planning on moving to his new keyboard layout when it comes out, as mine is pretty much crap. When you suggested your way of scrolling, I (because I'm not trying to build the uber keyboard layout, JaKaTaK is...) I was already sold. Thank you for the suggestion, I'm definitely going to do it your way when I do my keyboard switch! Its awesome, I wish I had thought of it! JaKaTaK - I'm convinced that mousing to the edge of the screen to scroll the window is not productive, that pressing a key and then moving your mouse to change the viewport of the map is more efficient. You obviously don't have to move the mouse as far, so the question is is a key press to activate the drag scroll mode faster than moving the cursor to the side of the screen. I don't think there is much arguing that you can do, a key press is going to be faster. And the increased accuracy is a real bonus as well (ie. you control the direction better). I definitely will want to do it this way, even though I bet it'll take some getting used to... Thanks! Thank you for understanding what I mean. I am very interested in investigating the pros and cons of mouse scroll vs drag scroll. The increased accuracy is definitely an interesting point, but if you can be as accurate at 1000dpi as 1500dpi, why not play at 1500? There is a point where too much sensitivity will begin to hurt your hand by putting too much stress on the fine motor skill muscles in your hand, but my question still stands as I believe that 1500dpi does not cross this threshold. Speed and Accuracy are often on a see-saw; you lose one to gain the other, the goal i think is to find the balance where their sum is the greatest. However, this is an incredibly hard question to answer and each persons hand is different. Any ideas? Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 01:45 SmuZ wrote:
In my opinion, this isn't that good. I think that people with no experience won't search for such like this, because they don't know where to or they don't even imagine that this kind of thing exists. Than comes the fact that starcraft 2 population grows slower than in the first seasons and somone from higher leagues wont switch for a new hotkey. It can take a while to get it working.It looks like this hotkey keeps your fingers so closed, it would be enough to switch everything from YHN or maybe UJM to something closer to be easier to use, for ex. I saw once or twice Stephano using his custom hotkey. I appreciate your work but is this cost effective ? However your job looks amazing bro ! Keep it up! This is interesting to me because people have posted that Stephano uses grid and either neglect to mention that he has altered it, or do not know. I am finding it hard to understand your language, but I am doing my best. What do you mean by "won't search for such like this" and "this isn't good" and "it would be enough to switch everything from YHN or maybe UJM to something closer to be easier to use" I apologize for missing your meaning here. Our goal is to find the most efficient hotkey layout possible. If it is good enough to give players an edge in their games, not to try and convince all the pros and everyone else that they should make the switch. We believe that the efficiency of the layout will speak for itself; players who want to have the advantage of a more efficient layout will switch, those who don't will not. It is impossible to make a layout that is both easy to switch to and optimally efficient, when you add to one, you sacrifice from the other. On one hand you will have, sticking to a standard or lightly modified layout, and on the other will be Chameleon and Storm. The choice is always for each individual player to make, I can't perform inception
Nobody needs to walk on eggshells. My responses weren't emotional, they were peppered with some degree of sarcasm, however, because I think we can all agree that patience is not infinite. I find it helpful before I click that 'Post' button to ask myself two questions:
1. Do I come off like a complete asshole with what I've just written, and
2. Have I made any obviously stupid comments or requests for proof of something that is completely obvious on its face.
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On May 18 2012 06:04 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 03:06 JaKaTaK wrote:On May 17 2012 19:45 Xenq wrote:
Thanks for the tips re: Center on Current Selection.
When you finish up are you going to release the data you have compiled from the replays? It sounds interesting and I wouldn't mind a look. I should be finishing up the tables today. Please keep in mind, if we do decide to release them for everyone to look at that this is far from final, and starting to make criticisms now would be a waste of time, as we are still in the process of creating this layout. This is super alpha, everything is subject to change. That being said, I think that it would be cool to release the data in a google doc or something On May 17 2012 22:50 matrius wrote:Haha, Kaitlin, you are taking JaKaTaK questioning much too personally. However, I agree with you in the logic of it I think its good that JaKaTaK is trying hard to be objective, and I am definitely planning on moving to his new keyboard layout when it comes out, as mine is pretty much crap. When you suggested your way of scrolling, I (because I'm not trying to build the uber keyboard layout, JaKaTaK is...) I was already sold. Thank you for the suggestion, I'm definitely going to do it your way when I do my keyboard switch! Its awesome, I wish I had thought of it! JaKaTaK - I'm convinced that mousing to the edge of the screen to scroll the window is not productive, that pressing a key and then moving your mouse to change the viewport of the map is more efficient. You obviously don't have to move the mouse as far, so the question is is a key press to activate the drag scroll mode faster than moving the cursor to the side of the screen. I don't think there is much arguing that you can do, a key press is going to be faster. And the increased accuracy is a real bonus as well (ie. you control the direction better). I definitely will want to do it this way, even though I bet it'll take some getting used to... Thanks! Thank you for understanding what I mean. I am very interested in investigating the pros and cons of mouse scroll vs drag scroll. The increased accuracy is definitely an interesting point, but if you can be as accurate at 1000dpi as 1500dpi, why not play at 1500? There is a point where too much sensitivity will begin to hurt your hand by putting too much stress on the fine motor skill muscles in your hand, but my question still stands as I believe that 1500dpi does not cross this threshold. Speed and Accuracy are often on a see-saw; you lose one to gain the other, the goal i think is to find the balance where their sum is the greatest. However, this is an incredibly hard question to answer and each persons hand is different. Any ideas? On May 18 2012 01:45 SmuZ wrote:
In my opinion, this isn't that good. I think that people with no experience won't search for such like this, because they don't know where to or they don't even imagine that this kind of thing exists. Than comes the fact that starcraft 2 population grows slower than in the first seasons and somone from higher leagues wont switch for a new hotkey. It can take a while to get it working.It looks like this hotkey keeps your fingers so closed, it would be enough to switch everything from YHN or maybe UJM to something closer to be easier to use, for ex. I saw once or twice Stephano using his custom hotkey. I appreciate your work but is this cost effective ? However your job looks amazing bro ! Keep it up! This is interesting to me because people have posted that Stephano uses grid and either neglect to mention that he has altered it, or do not know. I am finding it hard to understand your language, but I am doing my best. What do you mean by "won't search for such like this" and "this isn't good" and "it would be enough to switch everything from YHN or maybe UJM to something closer to be easier to use" I apologize for missing your meaning here. Our goal is to find the most efficient hotkey layout possible. If it is good enough to give players an edge in their games, not to try and convince all the pros and everyone else that they should make the switch. We believe that the efficiency of the layout will speak for itself; players who want to have the advantage of a more efficient layout will switch, those who don't will not. It is impossible to make a layout that is both easy to switch to and optimally efficient, when you add to one, you sacrifice from the other. On one hand you will have, sticking to a standard or lightly modified layout, and on the other will be Chameleon and Storm. The choice is always for each individual player to make, I can't perform inception Nobody needs to walk on eggshells. My responses weren't emotional, they were peppered with some degree of sarcasm, however, because I think we can all agree that patience is not infinite. I find it helpful before I click that 'Post' button to ask myself two questions: 1. Do I come off like a complete asshole with what I've just written, and 2. Have I made any obviously stupid comments or requests for proof of something that is completely obvious on its face.
Did you mean to quote my other response that was directed to you?
I certainly agree with you that patience is not (an) infinite (resource in a human being.)
2. Have I made any obviously stupid comments or requests for proof of something that is completely obvious on its face.
Using obvious twice in the same sentence is redundant and gives the impression that you either have poor English skills or insults the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with what you decided was obvious and is above proof, reason, or consideration. Knowledge is also not an infinite resource in a human being.
I find it helpful before I click that 'Post' button to ask myself two questions.
1. Is what I said as true and as accurate as I can make it at this time.
2. Am I making any assumptions that I can avoid?
3. Is what I am posting actually adding to the discussion in a constructive way? (for clarification, I feel it is constructive for us to come to an understanding of each other so that we can share our knowledge for the benefit of the community)
On May 18 2012 03:35 bgalang92 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 20:36 cosimorondo wrote:
One thing that stands out as unacceptable, for me, personally, about using Drag Scroll, is the need to constantly pick up your mouse* and re-position it in order to keep your mouse in the center of your mouse pad, whereas this is not necessary using the conventional method. Like I said before, increasing the sensitivity of the drag scroll almost entirely eliminates this problem. At 100% sensitivity, I can accurately swing my camera between my main, nat, third, and usually my forth with a singly mouse swing. Mind you, I also play with a fingertip grip, so this swing is quite small, maybe 4ish inches. If that's not enough for you, use the minimap, or more importantly, you should be using hotkeys. Increasing drag sensitivity eliminates the need for your mouse to hit the edges of your screen, so you can lower your overall sensitivity for increased micro/game accuracy. Increasing edge scroll does increase camera speed, but only makes the severity of the x/y axis jumpiness described by both Kaitlyn and I. Also, another point for the efficiency of drag scroll, you can easily center your screen on whatever you want to be looking at, and your cursor will stay at the center of the screen, ready to select whatever you need. Again, more efficient then edge scrolling past the object, then having to move the cursor back to the middle of the screen.
You make a very good case for drag scroll. I am definitely going to start experimenting with it. Thanks :D
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On May 18 2012 03:35 bgalang92 wrote:
Like I said before, increasing the sensitivity of the drag scroll almost entirely eliminates this problem. At 100% sensitivity, I can accurately swing my camera between my main, nat, third, and usually my forth with a singly mouse swing. Mind you, I also play with a fingertip grip, so this swing is quite small, maybe 4ish inches.
I think you misinterpreted my meaning, which I attribute entirely to a lack of a refined explanation on my part.
Starting with your cursor in the middle of the screen, and your mouse in the middle of your mouse pad, when you drag scroll to go a screen over, (4ish inches or whatever the case may be) your mouse is suddenly at the extremity of your mouse pad(depending on its size) while your cursor is still in the middle of your screen. Depending on your set-up (certainly on mine!).
This necessitates mouse dead time while you physically pick up the mouse off of the pad and place it back in the center of the mouse pad.
This is not the case when you use the edge of the screen to scroll because you make your motion to the right for instance, and then when you have achieved the desired screen location make a motion back to the left to return to the center of the screen and the center of your mouse pad.
Hence, in my opinion, greater efficiency.
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You can just bind mouse 3 to the drag scroll in sc2. No need to bind alt to mouse and then alt to drag.
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On May 18 2012 06:49 JaKaTaK wrote:
I find it helpful before I click that 'Post' button to ask myself two questions.
1. Is what I said as true and as accurate as I can make it at this time.
2. Am I making any assumptions that I can avoid?
3. Is what I am posting actually adding to the discussion in a constructive way? (for clarification, I feel it is constructive for us to come to an understanding of each other so that we can share our knowledge for the benefit of the community)
I like you. You're a funny guy. My point is that sometimes people can contribute ideas that should be obvious. When I tried to make the point that depressing my thumb for drag scroll and moving the mouse in exactly the direction I wanted to move the screen and only in the amount I wanted it to move was better than moving the mouse all the way to the edge, and edge scrolling on one axis for an imprecise period of time, followed by the same thing on another edge to move along that axis, followed by returning the mouse to the center, you challenged me on it. I don't know how to explain it other than saying it should be completely obvious, so I got frustrated. You are developing a system wherein you measure the distance between knuckles and penalize keystrokes that require pinky action, but you can't see that moving the mouse the entire length of the screen in both directions is inferior to a button click and a slight movement ?
People in this thread have no problem asking clarifying questions about posts I've made and I go into great detail to help them. Yet, your responses to my suggestions are to challenge and debate no matter how objectively obviously true they are to everyone else.
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On May 18 2012 07:16 vaderseven wrote:
You can just bind mouse 3 to the drag scroll in sc2. No need to bind alt to mouse and then alt to drag.
You are correct. However, binding Alt to the mouse enables an entire system of 'layering', which in my system at least, eliminates all keyboard hand movement and contortion.
Also, is mouse 3 the middle mouse button ? I have tried to give that button function, any function, in my layout, but it's shown itself to be difficult for me to work with. The reason I use the side button is because holding your thumb firmly against the mouse is natural when moving the mouse, and that is exactly what is associated with every use I have for Alt in my system. It enables all the camera movement functionality, as well as some doubling up of certain other functionalities. Trying to move my mouse with the middle mouse button has proven futile for me. Also, I've discovered since I have scroll wheel programmed for control groups, sometimes trying to click down on the middle mouse button presents conflicting problems with the mouse wheel scroll ability.
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On May 18 2012 07:03 cosimorondo wrote:
This necessitates mouse dead time while you physically pick up the mouse off of the pad and place it back in the center of the mouse pad.
Valid point, I do agree with you here, but this does not happen every time you use drag scroll, only when you use drag scroll to reach the very limits of your mouse pad's range, something you should rarely if ever do anyway, especially with the combined used of the minimap click. Oftentimes, you can drag scroll an inch or two, and have enough mouse room to still execute any task you need to do. Again, this is with drag sensitivity at 100%! Try it. Seriously. I dismissed drag scroll until I increased the speed, it's an entirely different experience.
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On May 18 2012 07:03 cosimorondo wrote:
I think you misinterpreted my meaning, which I attribute entirely to a lack of a refined explanation on my part.
Starting with your cursor in the middle of the screen, and your mouse in the middle of your mouse pad, when you drag scroll to go a screen over, (4ish inches or whatever the case may be) your mouse is suddenly at the extremity of your mouse pad(depending on its size) while your cursor is still in the middle of your screen. Depending on your set-up (certainly on mine!).
This necessitates mouse dead time while you physically pick up the mouse off of the pad and place it back in the center of the mouse pad.
This is not the case when you use the edge of the screen to scroll because you make your motion to the right for instance, and then when you have achieved the desired screen location make a motion back to the left to return to the center of the screen and the center of your mouse pad.
Hence, in my opinion, greater efficiency.
Assume the desired start and end points of the mouse in our hypothetical is the exact center of the mousepad. Assume that the mouse scroll and drag scroll setting %s are identical. I think this is a fair starting point to compare the two. With drag scrolling, the screen moves beginning at the middle of the mouse pad. Also, the screen scrolls in the exact direction desired. If you want to move a 45 degree angle, you do that, starting at the middle of the mouse pad. Using mouse scrolling, your mouse has to move the cursor all the way to the edge before the screen starts. Then you engage in what I call 'banging' against the wall to get the appropriate amount of scrolling. If you go to far, then to the other edge, but we'll leave that out . Now, that scroll has been on one axis. Then, you have to hit the other axis to go up / down. Same process. Once you've reached the desired screen position, you still need to relocate your mouse to the middle of the mouse pad. I would argue (and have argued) that the mouse moves less in the overall scenario with drag scrolling. The lifting of the mouse to return it is certainly a counterpoint, but unless you are using a 50 lb. mouse, is it much harder to lift and move the mouse a shorter distance than it is to slide it ?
Also, let's consider the necessity of always returning the mouse to the center of the mousepad. That's an assumption to make a fair comparison, but in actual gameplay, is that a necessary step ? Can we only play with the mouse in the center ? What if our next action is to move the camera back ? For example, I want to place a pylon in a particular location, but immediately after, I want the probe to return to its original location. In my play, I would use a camera location, but if it's at a base without a location saved, then one would expect the logical follow up action would be to drag scroll back in the exact opposite direction. So, in that particular case, there is no mandated lifting and returning associated with drag scroll, in fact, it is a clear win over the comparable mouse scroll which would require the same edge scrolling back in the other direction.
Ultimately, in gameplay, there are going to be so many scenarios to the point where you can't make exact determinations that one is better than another. Heck, using drag scrolling doesn't preclude the use of mouse scrolling. But I don't think it's wrong to say that ergonomically-speaking, drag scrolling is more efficient simply because less mouse movement is better than more. Now, it's possible that it's better gameplay to use the less ergonomically friendly method, but that's a different question. If were basing a decision on ergonomics, drag scrolling seems to be clearly superior to mouse scrolling.
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On May 18 2012 07:24 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 07:16 vaderseven wrote:
You can just bind mouse 3 to the drag scroll in sc2. No need to bind alt to mouse and then alt to drag. You are correct. However, binding Alt to the mouse enables an entire system of 'layering', which in my system at least, eliminates all keyboard hand movement and contortion. Also, is mouse 3 the middle mouse button ? I have tried to give that button function, any function, in my layout, but it's shown itself to be difficult for me to work with. The reason I use the side button is because holding your thumb firmly against the mouse is natural when moving the mouse, and that is exactly what is associated with every use I have for Alt in my system. It enables all the camera movement functionality, as well as some doubling up of certain other functionalities. Trying to move my mouse with the middle mouse button has proven futile for me. Also, I've discovered since I have scroll wheel programmed for control groups, sometimes trying to click down on the middle mouse button presents conflicting problems with the mouse wheel scroll ability.
It depends on the mouse driver and the mouse.
For me, I had an older mouse where the first side button was 1 and the 2nd was 3. The two main buttons were 4 and 5. Hated that mouse.
Currently my side buttons are 4 and 5. I use button 5 for drag scroll and have for a long time.
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Copied the file into notepad but its not showing up in the drop down menu. Did the same thing for darkgrid and it worked. Not sure what the problem is 
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On May 18 2012 07:18 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 06:49 JaKaTaK wrote:
I find it helpful before I click that 'Post' button to ask myself two questions.
1. Is what I said as true and as accurate as I can make it at this time.
2. Am I making any assumptions that I can avoid?
3. Is what I am posting actually adding to the discussion in a constructive way? (for clarification, I feel it is constructive for us to come to an understanding of each other so that we can share our knowledge for the benefit of the community)
I like you. You're a funny guy. My point is that sometimes people can contribute ideas that should be obvious. When I tried to make the point that depressing my thumb for drag scroll and moving the mouse in exactly the direction I wanted to move the screen and only in the amount I wanted it to move was better than moving the mouse all the way to the edge, and edge scrolling on one axis for an imprecise period of time, followed by the same thing on another edge to move along that axis, followed by returning the mouse to the center, you challenged me on it. I don't know how to explain it other than saying it should be completely obvious, so I got frustrated. You are developing a system wherein you measure the distance between knuckles and penalize keystrokes that require pinky action, but you can't see that moving the mouse the entire length of the screen in both directions is inferior to a button click and a slight movement ? People in this thread have no problem asking clarifying questions about posts I've made and I go into great detail to help them. Yet, your responses to my suggestions are to challenge and debate no matter how objectively obviously true they are to everyone else.
Lol. I meant three questions. That's pretty hilarious/ironic.
I never actually disagreed with the drag scroll idea. I also didn't agree with it. I just feel that it is less black and white than you feel it is. The question (as someone else brought up) is, "does it take longer to press a button and drag scroll the mouse, or to move the mouse to the edge of the screen." What did make me curious was that you provided a less clear explanation than you normally do; which was littered with unnecessary adjectives that make your point seem more valid, but add no actual substance to your argument.
As for the drag scroll, keep in mind, my Alt is my mouse back button, so it's not really on the keyboard. I find it much better than the mouse cursor banging against the side of the screen crap I see everybody do. All I have to do is depress my thumb on the side and any mouse movement moves the screen. Instead of banging the right side of the screen a few times, followed by the top of the screen, I simply depress my thumb and move my mouse diagonal a little bit. Much easier. Comparing it to the middle mouse button is also relevant, but I find the middle mouse button a bit cumbersome to depress during gameplay, so I don't even have it bound to anything, although I use scrolling up and down for 2 control groups.
depressing my thumb for drag scroll and moving the mouse in exactly the direction I wanted to move the screen and only in the amount I wanted it to move was better than moving the mouse all the way to the edge, and edge scrolling on one axis for an imprecise period of time, followed by the same thing on another edge to move along that axis, followed by returning the mouse to the center, you challenged me on it.
If you compare the language of the first quote and the second quote it is much more clear what you mean in the second, and you aren't insulting anyone who disagrees with you.
I will challenge you and anyone else on anything. An idea unable to stand up to challenges is not much of an idea in my opinion. Also, as I said before, I'm curious to know your thought process. I want to know all of the reasons you've found drag scroll to be more efficient, not just the obvious ones (and I try not to assume the only thoughts in someones head are the obvious ones). I will continue to challenge you and everyone else, and I hope that in turn you challenge me, because that is one of the most effective ways to learn IMO. But its not necessary to have subjective language in your explanation, it makes your point seem weaker than it is. Now that I am revisiting the post, I can see that your explanation was there, but I missed it because the way you delivered your point was distracting to me, totally my fault. I look forward to your future posts, prepare to be challenged :D
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On May 18 2012 08:19 Spiner wrote:Copied the file into notepad but its not showing up in the drop down menu. Did the same thing for darkgrid and it worked. Not sure what the problem is
I'm pretty sure it doesn't say copy this into notepad anywhere in the OP. I'd quote it for you, but its almost show time, so just go to the bottom of the OP and make sure you're downloading a file and putting it in the right place
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When you say that it is "almost" show time, are you implying that you and FoXyMayHem are within a hair's breadth of releasing a beta version of the Hotkey Setup That Was Felt Around The World?
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No, he does a stream show. It's referred to earlier in the thread.
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On May 02 2012 05:58 TotoroHren wrote:
I can say that this is totaly bullscheisse. Dude this is so stupid lol. Trust me all of you this wont work well don't even try. I am top master player so dont rage plz.
User was warned for this post
lol
Anyway OP thanks for this so much. def gonna try it. might take me to gm :D
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When You will have the New Keys Ready For Testing? im playing whit ur keys and is asome but if u have something better when i can get it ?
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Well, a lot of work was put into this. From a first look I can see a lot of potential in maximising efficiency. I've been looking for a way to increase my gameplay's efficiency and I believe this might be just the tool I need.
I am going to learn this set-up and master it within one week; then I will return and give all of my constructive feedback once I have tested the material.
Thanks again and good luck in your endeavors!
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so do you have any timeframe for the new layout? read that it was supposed to be out for beta this week, is this correct? I am really looking forward to that release!
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On May 18 2012 21:13 unicornofdoom wrote:so do you have any timeframe for the new layout? read that it was supposed to be out for beta this week, is this correct? I am really looking forward to that release!
On May 18 2012 13:05 charlie187 wrote:When You will have the New Keys Ready For Testing? im playing whit ur keys and is asome but if u have something better when i can get it ?
We ran into some awesome new stuff that will make the layout even better, but it also meant we had to rework all of the hotkeys and make some new considerations. Soon is the best I can do for you. I'm putting 3-5 hours per day into this, it's as much as I can do for now.
On May 18 2012 14:44 Alcibiades1991 wrote:
Well, a lot of work was put into this. From a first look I can see a lot of potential in maximising efficiency. I've been looking for a way to increase my gameplay's efficiency and I believe this might be just the tool I need.
I am going to learn this set-up and master it within one week; then I will return and give all of my constructive feedback once I have tested the material.
Thanks again and good luck in your endeavors!
On May 18 2012 12:35 Abort Retry Fail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:58 TotoroHren wrote:
I can say that this is totaly bullscheisse. Dude this is so stupid lol. Trust me all of you this wont work well don't even try. I am top master player so dont rage plz.
User was warned for this post lol Anyway OP thanks for this so much. def gonna try it. might take me to gm :D
Thank you guys! Very excited to hear your feedback. Also, you may have heard foxy and i are working on a new layout, if you use a laptop keyboard instead of a plugged in keyboard stick with this one, if not, i promise to make the new one worth the wait.
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EPT
