|
This is a comment about use of drag scroll.
Always when we are trying to improve our game we need to make sure that what we are doing is actually worth the effort. I am a strong advocate of changing to some custom hotkey setup, but if the end result isnt worth the pain of the losses required to make the change then it isnt logical to make the change.
So we have to consider accurately where whether we will get the benefit we are looking for. In this case that is efficiency and comfort in the actions performed.
So any problem/benefit i find with any mouse use in terms of efficiency is found by the following consideration:
What did i just do with my mouse
What am i combining with the mouse thing i'm doing
What do i want to do next.
How hard is it to do all these things in combination.
For me, using a mouse button in combination with a mouse action can be a small problem. Its not much but when i need to commit some of my right hand to pressing a button while i use the same hand to move the mouse then i am slightly compromising the accuracy of the right hand movement by making it also do an entirely different movement. If i had my mouse firmly attached to my hand then i wouldnt need to use my fingers to keep firm and precise grip on the mouse to ensure accurate and speedy action.
Also it is clear that anything you do with the mouse takes longer that anything you do with the keyboard. (try clicking on all your bases with larvae injects using minimap and compare it to layered camera hotkeys (thanks foxy for that one!).
So, if you want to use drag scrolling, I suggest considering putting the drag scrolling key on the keyboard. And if you want to put a mouse button to use (thinking about Kaitlin here) then ensure that the next thing you do requires keys rather than mouse precision. (eg. your production cycle rather than casting a time critical spell in a micro battle) (again thanks Foxy for pointing this one out to me).
Best wishes and great love to our community
ZombieDenden
|
On May 19 2012 04:27 ZombieDenden wrote:Show nested quote +
This is a comment about use of drag scroll.
Always when we are trying to improve our game we need to make sure that what we are doing is actually worth the effort. I am a strong advocate of changing to some custom hotkey setup, but if the end result isnt worth the pain of the losses required to make the change then it isnt logical to make the change.
So we have to consider accurately where whether we will get the benefit we are looking for. In this case that is efficiency and comfort in the actions performed.
So any problem/benefit i find with any mouse use in terms of efficiency is found by the following consideration:
What did i just do with my mouse
What am i combining with the mouse thing i'm doing
What do i want to do next.
How hard is it to do all these things in combination.
For me, using a mouse button in combination with a mouse action can be a small problem. Its not much but when i need to commit some of my right hand to pressing a button while i use the same hand to move the mouse then i am slightly compromising the accuracy of the right hand movement by making it also do an entirely different movement. If i had my mouse firmly attached to my hand then i wouldnt need to use my fingers to keep firm and precise grip on the mouse to ensure accurate and speedy action.
Also it is clear that anything you do with the mouse takes longer that anything you do with the keyboard. (try clicking on all your bases with larvae injects using minimap and compare it to layered camera hotkeys (thanks foxy for that one!).
So, if you want to use drag scrolling, I suggest considering putting the drag scrolling key on the keyboard. And if you want to put a mouse button to use (thinking about Kaitlin here) then ensure that the next thing you do requires keys rather than mouse precision. (eg. your production cycle rather than casting a time critical spell in a micro battle) (again thanks Foxy for pointing this one out to me).
Best wishes and great love to our community
ZombieDenden
Well said. Thanks for that :D
|
On May 19 2012 04:27 ZombieDenden wrote:
This is a comment about use of drag scroll.
Always when we are trying to improve our game we need to make sure that what we are doing is actually worth the effort. I am a strong advocate of changing to some custom hotkey setup, but if the end result isnt worth the pain of the losses required to make the change then it isnt logical to make the change.
So we have to consider accurately where whether we will get the benefit we are looking for. In this case that is efficiency and comfort in the actions performed.
So any problem/benefit i find with any mouse use in terms of efficiency is found by the following consideration:
What did i just do with my mouse
What am i combining with the mouse thing i'm doing
What do i want to do next.
How hard is it to do all these things in combination.
For me, using a mouse button in combination with a mouse action can be a small problem. Its not much but when i need to commit some of my right hand to pressing a button while i use the same hand to move the mouse then i am slightly compromising the accuracy of the right hand movement by making it also do an entirely different movement. If i had my mouse firmly attached to my hand then i wouldnt need to use my fingers to keep firm and precise grip on the mouse to ensure accurate and speedy action.
Also it is clear that anything you do with the mouse takes longer that anything you do with the keyboard. (try clicking on all your bases with larvae injects using minimap and compare it to layered camera hotkeys (thanks foxy for that one!).
So, if you want to use drag scrolling, I suggest considering putting the drag scrolling key on the keyboard. And if you want to put a mouse button to use (thinking about Kaitlin here) then ensure that the next thing you do requires keys rather than mouse precision. (eg. your production cycle rather than casting a time critical spell in a micro battle) (again thanks Foxy for pointing this one out to me).
Best wishes and great love to our community
ZombieDenden
I agree completely with your analysis of the considerations in using mouse buttons vs. keyboard buttons. In fact, it's precisely the reason I do not have a single use for clicking the scroll wheel in my setup. Because it's simply too cumbersome to do anything before or after it, let alone in combination. Also, in previous iterations of 'Base J', I assigned lesser used control groups to scrolling forward or back on the mouse wheel while the Mouse Back button was held in. I even found this to be more cumbersome than desired, so I abandoned that.
I also have been very cognizant of applications where I layer with 'Alt', which for me is activated with the mouse back button. I have made numerous tweaks and changes to my layout over the course of the past year, to find small improvements, or shore up on areas that were a little weak. One specifically was the Alt + scroll usage.
To your suggestion of considering putting drag scroll on the keyboard, trust me, it's gone through my head on more than one occasion, and I've played around with a few modifications with exactly that. I've found them not to be an improvement, and here's why. When 'drag scroll' is active, whether it's on the mouse or keyboard, the mouse cursor disappears. This fact has had significant influence in my decision to apply all the camera functionality to use of the Alt modifier which does double duty as drag scroll. If I have to lose the cursor, then I can only apply actions that don't require a cursor, and that is saving and recalling camera locations, hopping to the last alert, and activating idle worker. So, in every use of my 'drag scroll' activation button, my screen is moving somewhere. I have no need for mouse clicks, but only mouse movement sometimes. I have found it no more difficult to move my mouse with the side button held down than some key on the keyboard. My thumb is already resting on that button, whereas a keyboard key, I would have to move a finger to reach something, unless I want to give up what I call prime 'real estate' to a key that takes away my cursor.
I have to disagree with the bolded parts in your post though. First, I don't see converting to a new system as weighing 'the pain of the losses' to the end result. I simply look at it as whether it will make my gameplay better after converting. For someone who plays for fun, will their gameplay experience be more fun. For a professional, will their ability increase with the improved layout. It's not a question of how many games you lose in the conversion. It's simply a matter of when I fully convert, will I be better of than I would have been had I not converted.
The second bolded part, I only think your statement is too broad. I agree that moving the mouse to execute a particular action is slower than being able to use the keyboard to execute that action. In fact, that's why I'm so heavily active in camera location usage. Actually, it's part of the argument in favor of 'drag scrolling' vs. edge scrolling. Let mouse movement in drag scrolling. But there are things that can be executed with the mouse that are no slower than a keyboard, and in some cases faster, e.g. using the scroll wheel for infested terrans, for example. I believe when properly considered, using the buttons on the side of the mouse, as long as they are not inhibiting surrounding action, such as mouse clicking, can be performed on par as if they are on the keyboard. I will definitely agree, however, that in a situation where I expect to be trying to right click or left click, with accuracy and speed, I do NOT want to be messing with any other buttons on the mouse. But as long as you take those into account, the mouse buttons are a wonderful tool in the 'Hotkey Customization Toolbox'.
|
On May 19 2012 04:27 ZombieDenden wrote:
Always when we are trying to improve our game we need to make sure that what we are doing is actually worth the effort.
Well said sirrah.
For me, using a mouse button in combination with a mouse action can be a small problem. Its not much but when i need to commit some of my right hand to pressing a button while i use the same hand to move the mouse then i am slightly compromising the accuracy of the right hand movement by making it also do an entirely different movement. If i had my mouse firmly attached to my hand then i wouldnt need to use my fingers to keep firm and precise grip on the mouse to ensure accurate and speedy action.
This is the crux of the issue for me. It has been said that it can be adjusted for, or that you can play with your hand in a different position if drag scrolling requires it, but the anchor for my mouse hand does not move after a game begins. It would be not only impractical, but uncomfortable to try and play with my hand in a contorted position simply for the sake of using drag scroll.
|
On May 19 2012 09:05 cosimorondo wrote:
the anchor for my mouse hand does not move after a game begins. It would be not only impractical, but uncomfortable to try and play with my hand in a contorted position simply for the sake of using drag scroll.
This is exactly why I won't be using it personally, but not everyone has an anchor for their mouse hand. Although, I do think that it is more accurate to do so.
I have to disagree with the bolded parts in your post though. First, I don't see converting to a new system as weighing 'the pain of the losses' to the end result. I simply look at it as whether it will make my gameplay better after converting. For someone who plays for fun, will their gameplay experience be more fun. For a professional, will their ability increase with the improved layout. It's not a question of how many games you lose in the conversion. It's simply a matter of when I fully convert, will I be better of than I would have been had I not converted.
The second bolded part, I only think your statement is too broad. I agree that moving the mouse to execute a particular action is slower than being able to use the keyboard to execute that action. In fact, that's why I'm so heavily active in camera location usage. Actually, it's part of the argument in favor of 'drag scrolling' vs. edge scrolling. Let mouse movement in drag scrolling. But there are things that can be executed with the mouse that are no slower than a keyboard, and in some cases faster, e.g. using the scroll wheel for infested terrans, for example. I believe when properly considered, using the buttons on the side of the mouse, as long as they are not inhibiting surrounding action, such as mouse clicking, can be performed on par as if they are on the keyboard. I will definitely agree, however, that in a situation where I expect to be trying to right click or left click, with accuracy and speed, I do NOT want to be messing with any other buttons on the mouse. But as long as you take those into account, the mouse buttons are a wonderful tool in the 'Hotkey Customization Toolbox'.
I very much agree with all of this. I was much less critical especially with the "first bolded part". The idea of using the side mouse button, and the point of the cursor disappearing is really important IMO. The probability of having to unanchor my hand in the middle of a game is my biggest deterrent. I will have to play around to see how often this will actually happen in a game.
|
Can you guys go into more detail about this mouse hand anchoring ? I don't follow.
|
![[image loading]](http://www.assh.org/Public/HandConditions/PublishingImages/Surface.jpg)
The weight of my hand/wrist mostly rests on the part of the illustration labeled the hypothenar, and where the hypothenar rests on the table/mousepad does not change during the duration of the game. My mouse sensitivity is such that I can "draw" a circle that touches the edges of my screen with a circle on the mousepad that is approximately a radius or an inch or an inch and a half.
People who use lower sensitivity mice tend to use their shoulder as the anchor, moving their house hand around much more freely.
|
Edit: ninja'ed
They use the "claw (correction: fingertip) grip" way of holding a mouse, where the wrist (edit: Cos is more specific) sets on the mouse pad (or wrist support) and never moves. All of the movement is performed by the claw-like grip of the fingers. It's incredibly accurate and fast, but less ergonomic and makes pressing side mouse buttons very impractical, since all of their fingers are dedicated to mouse position control.
I use the palm grip, where my hand wrests on the mouse and mouse control is not handled by articulating finders, but mostly wrist and arm movement with the elbow as an anchor. This make pressing side mouse buttons a snap. Most PC shooter gamers use the palm grip with the shoulder as an anchor.
|
I actually play FPS a lot but i use the claw grip.
Edit: jakatak, im really looking forward to your new hotkey layout.
Edit2: i really like Jakatak Righty, my avg apm went from ~100 to ~300.
|
On May 19 2012 14:37 superbarnie wrote:
I actually play FPS a lot but i use the claw grip.
Edit: jakatak, im really looking forward to your new hotkey layout.
Edit2: i really like [Chameleon], my avg apm went from ~100 to ~300.
Daaaayyyyyuuuumm. That's going in the hall of fame :D 300% increase in apm is always nice :D
EDITED for name change
|
Can anyone speak for how this works once used?
|
I disagree with there being any problem with the drag scroll on the mouse. While accessing production control groups on the side buttons of a mouse may be very difficult for some, (personally I use a fingertip grip, so the use of my side buttons forces me to partially lose grip on my mouse, something that may be okay for production, but not drag scrolling) drag scrolling should not be an issue. While clicking with the scroll wheel may feel weird, once used to it you lose no efficiency by using it. Simply by shifting your pointer finger over half an inch you can depress the scroll wheel without manipulating your overall grip on the mouse. It's as natural as left or right clicking to me after just a little practice.
|
On May 20 2012 05:47 zmansman17 wrote:
Can anyone speak for how this works once used?
Did you read the post directly above you?
On May 20 2012 05:59 bgalang92 wrote:
I disagree with there being any problem with the drag scroll on the mouse. While accessing production control groups on the side buttons of a mouse may be very difficult for some, (personally I use a fingertip grip, so the use of my side buttons forces me to partially lose grip on my mouse, something that may be okay for production, but not drag scrolling) drag scrolling should not be an issue. While clicking with the scroll wheel may feel weird, once used to it you lose no efficiency by using it. Simply by shifting your pointer finger over half an inch you can depress the scroll wheel without manipulating your overall grip on the mouse. It's as natural as left or right clicking to me after just a little practice.
My issue with this is that you have to take your finger off of one of the two most pressed buttons in the game. (no data about mouse clicks yet, but that's my guess) Is it worth it? I am still not sure, but taking your finger off of either primary mouse buttons is something to take into consideration.
|
Are there plans for race specific hotkey setups? It seems to me that optimizing for random players would produce sub-optimal results for the individual races.
|
You guys are killing me making me wait for this hotkey setup...
|
Haven't played a single game in like a week. Feels like a waste to practice mechanics when I know I'll have to relearn everything soon.
Please hurry :D
|
My issue with this is that you have to take your finger off of one of the two most pressed buttons in the game
Then put the function on one of the sidebuttons so that it is a bonus for people who want to play with mouse buttons while the really important stuff stays on the keyboard.
|
On May 20 2012 23:56 IlK wrote:Show nested quote +My issue with this is that you have to take your finger off of one of the two most pressed buttons in the game Then put the function on one of the sidebuttons so that it is a bonus for people who want to play with mouse buttons while the really important stuff stays on the keyboard.
Completely agreed. I was arguing against drag scroll on the scroll wheel. Good point.
On May 20 2012 23:23 Tzuborg wrote:
Haven't played a single game in like a week. Feels like a waste to practice mechanics when I know I'll have to relearn everything soon.
Please hurry :D
We'll be releasing some of the data we're working with in order to help you out with your wait. I know the feeling. I've hardly been playing as well, but it looks like this will take a while. I would suggest continuing to play, you can always advance the parts of the game that aren't mechanics while you wait :D
On May 20 2012 18:05 Natespank wrote:
You guys are killing me making me wait for this hotkey setup...
I know man... I know, but it's a waste of time to release something as fucked up as the incarnation of the layout we're working with. We just got finished unit/building abilities. Still trying to get the control groups just right, and just starting the other "Global" keybinds. When we release the spreadsheet you'll understand more :D.
On May 20 2012 14:38 cosimorondo wrote:
Are there plans for race specific hotkey setups? It seems to me that optimizing for random players would produce sub-optimal results for the individual races.
Yes, we're releasing the random ones first, followed by the race specific ones, followed by the hand size specific ones(if we get as far as hand size specific models.) We also are considering doing custom layouts in the future, still uncertain about that one as it is time consuming as fuck.
Thanks for the interest :D I'll try and release some data as soon as possible!
|
i'm actually glad you're not releasing it before it's done, just saying.
|
United Arab Emirates9 Posts
hey just wanted to say i switched this this and its finally starting to improve (compared to the default hotkeys). took 2 weeks to get used to and i play random so i had to relearn everything. i still have problems with the c/v for building espcially barracks/factories/starports since there pretty much the exact same finger placement (i find it almost impossible to remember if im over the c/v key). similarly evo/forge/ebay/armory/twilight take me double takes to make sure i hit the keys. Not that i wont get used to it but that's been my main problem with it.
loving the camera hotkeys especially, the normal f keys are hell on your hands. alt is so much more natural.
also...why is warp gate shift+control+] that like the worst possible combo ive ever seen. i had to change it to caps lock
hope the new one your working on isn't too different than this one
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
