On May 16 2012 22:22 PoYo! wrote: Playing with it for over a week now. For the terran hotkeys I suggest changing either "Y" for Halt, or Y for lift/land. When your building is finishing and you want it to lift instantly, if both are on the same hotkey you can't spam lift while it's still building. I'm also using ` as a screen hotkey (not using "Center on current selection"). I use ERTGB (in that priority order) for units, DF for cc/production, 3 for an scv that has to build something (3 -> V/C is the easiest compared to the other control groups), 4 for upgrades (ebays/tech lab), 5 for depots (to lift/lower quickly, although i haven't used that for real yet). Also not sure why salvage bunker was so far away (N), I changed it to Q. I'm pretty used to it right now, I'm winning again in the GM league. Still not 100% used to it, noticeable in panic situations where pulling scvs and repairing and stuff is required. I'm glad I switched though.
Wow, GM, I'm honored. I need to rework the layered camera method on this layout. Turns out if you rebind center on current selection as alt, and make setting you base cameras (screen hotkeys that center on your bases) to alt+button it will kind of "auto-center" your base as you go to set the camera. Saves time and space; we were really excited when we found that one out :D The issue with having halt and lift/land as different buttons is that all the buildings that have halt don't have lift/land, and all the buildings that don't have lift/land have halt. So its a real space saver to have them as the same key. However, based on the data we've been aggregating lift/land actually takes a higher priority than we thought so we won't be having that problem in the new layout, and I'll be patching Chameleon once we finish the new layout to reflect everything we learned in the new project. I put salvage bunker further away because I figured it was a hard button to press by mistake, and if you did accidentally salvage your bunker it could lose you the game. Obviously you play with more precision that most players so rebinding it is definitely a good idea.
Thanks for the feedback.
On May 16 2012 17:51 Xenq wrote: Thanks for all your hard work. I've been meaning to learn a new setup for awhile and this could be the encouragement I need
I was wondering if you had put much thought into the inject method? My experience using the Base Camera method is that it is sub-optimal with more than 3 bases (or as soon as you add a macro hatch). If I wanted to assign 3 control groups to queens do you have any advice which keys I should use. By using that method I might be able to reassign Capslock also.
One other thing - should I be using Centre on Current Selection? I'm trying to think of when I would have something selected that's not already grouped and coming up blank.
I misunderstood the Darkgrid layered inject method. Now that I understand it, I'll be revamping the layout so that it works better with that inject method, which is much better, IMO than using the basecam method. Center on Current Selection also will be moved to alt as part of the inject method/screen hotkey setup I mentioned above :D
I don't understand what you mean by "not already grouped and coming up blank" could you elaborate?
On May 16 2012 22:10 Surili wrote: This sounds interesting, although to be honest i am pretty happy with my hotkey set up, which is a slight modification of the Cartesian Hotkey Setup that Shurafa posted around this time last year, and i have been doing that ever since. I don't think i would ever spend enough time switching again, as i am now used to this one, and it does the same job as your really, although admittedly not as efficiently.
I agree that its not as efficient. It has a very interesting 1+2+1 split for the fingers, instead of using one side for the control groups and one side for the abilites, it uses the outside fingers for control groups and has the ability keys all over the place. Very interesting, as you could make it so that a certain control group on the left side would only be followed by abilities on the right side to avoid finger repetition. However, using shift and ctrl for control groups on the left side is a pain in the ass and is why I will not be implementing this split in Chameleon. However, this may be useful in the the layouts, time to do more testing! :D
Cheers for the response. I was just curious if you'd noticed what situations in the replays players are using the Center on Current Selection button? I can't think of a use for it and I'm wondering if I can incorporate it somehow.
On May 16 2012 22:58 Xenq wrote: Cheers for the response. I was just curious if you'd noticed what situations in the replays players are using the Center on Current Selection button? I can't think of a use for it and I'm wondering if I can incorporate it somehow.
Its very useful in the Darkgrid inject method:
To improve upon this, change the "center on current section" to the same key that sets your camera keys (Ctrl or shift in the case of Darkgrid's particular setup, but whatever modifier you plan to use will work fine) and when you set a camera location for a base it will automatically be centered on the hatch/cc/nex because the first key you pressed in the two key combination also functions to center your camera on what is selected! Get it? It's super nifty
Edit: aside from that if you put it on a nice key (nicer than `) it will be faster than double pressing a CG to center on it, but that's only if you have the room for it, and when designing this layout I gave center on current selection the lowest priority. The main use I've found for that key is for setting camera locations (base or proxy locations mostly). I can't think of any others right now.
Unfortunately in a replay file it records all camera movements as cameramovements, so clicking on the minimap will leave the same data in a replay file as using a screen hotkey to get there. Hopefully there will be a time when we have found a way around this, or blizzard changes it in their replay files for HotS (unlikely), but as of now there's no way of knowing.
On May 16 2012 22:58 Xenq wrote: Cheers for the response. I was just curious if you'd noticed what situations in the replays players are using the Center on Current Selection button? I can't think of a use for it and I'm wondering if I can incorporate it somehow.
To improve upon this, change the "center on current section" to the same key that sets your camera keys (Ctrl or shift in the case of Darkgrid's particular setup, but whatever modifier you plan to use will work fine) and when you set a camera location for a base it will automatically be centered on the hatch/cc/nex because the first key you pressed in the two key combination also functions to center your camera on what is selected! Get it? It's super nifty
Edit: aside from that if you put it on a nice key (nicer than `) it will be faster than double pressing a CG to center on it, but that's only if you have the room for it, and when designing this layout I gave center on current selection the lowest priority. The main use I've found for that key is for setting camera locations (base or proxy locations mostly). I can't think of any others right now.
Unfortunately in a replay file it records all camera movements as cameramovements, so clicking on the minimap will leave the same data in a replay file as using a screen hotkey to get there. Hopefully there will be a time when we have found a way around this, or blizzard changes it in their replay files for HotS (unlikely), but as of now there's no way of knowing.
I can help some with the 'Center on Current Selection' dialog.
First, I use it frequently when playing Protoss for chronoboosting a particular building that is in a control group, but not the only building in a control group. That is, when I want to chrono my Robotics Facility, but it's grouped with my gateways, starport, whatever. I activate the control group, click the wireframe of the Robo, Center on Selection, then activate my Nexus control group and chronoboost. It's the exact same process for any building I chronoboost, as they are all control grouped, but not alone, in my setup. For that reason, my 'Center on Selection' key is adjacent to my Nexus control group key in my setup.
Second, another main use is used in conjunction with re-setting camera locations. At the beginning of each game, I preliminarily set all my 8 locations, 4 of which are where I'm going to have bases. At the point where I expand to those points, after I have the CC / Nexus / Hatch planted, I center and re-save the location. Not entirely necessary, but I'm OCD like that.
Third and probably most importantly, the use of the Alt modifier for 'Center on Selection' is interesting. I wouldn't be able to in mine because Alt is used for much more than Camera Locations, but if that's the only time you use Alt in your layout, then it's ok. However, it might restrict future modifications. In this new layout, how do you activate such things as 'Idle Worker', 'Warp Gates', 'Last Alert', 'Cancel (generally Escape, but rebindable), and 'Drag Scroll'. I use Alt for all these, as well as several layered control groups, which is exactly why, in my setup, using Alt for 'Center on Selection' would be problematic. The screen would move when I didn't want it to .
Before actually writing this, I thought I had more usage of 'Center on Selection' and I use it frequently, but it's ultimately used for only a few different things in my play, albeit with high frequency, especially as Protoss. However, with HoTS coming soon, the other races may have more uses.
The problem with layering commands under alt is that, if they're not on the rest position or a comfortable reach, it's often slower (and sometimes less ergonomic) than reaching a bit further for a single key press. Since we have 5-6 layered cameras, there's a lot less comfortable reaches for the things you mention. However, I do like your thinking. Warp gates are the only key of those listed that might work better in the new layout with it being layered, we'll have to take a closer look. But things like last alert need to be fast, and Idle worker, needs so be comboed with Ctrl a lot. Holding Ctrl+Alt requires massive hand movement (comparatively) and significant hand rotation, so there's a good chance just putting it on a key with a bit more reach that combos well with ctrl will be better.
But, thanks to you, we will give it a deeper look. <3
Given that you're considering layering warp gates with Alt, you might also consider creating a bit of a combination of functions. By that, I mean, since you're using Alt for a camera location, and for warp gates, you can activate warp gates AND move to a warp in location (camera location) by clicking two keys together, in combination with Alt. My point is, if there is a key available that is easy to click while also clicking a camera save hotkey, that would be extra nice. Protoss players could then think of the finger pattern and it would simultaneously not only activate the warp gates, but move the camera to the warp in location. As an example, I have Alt + C + V together to accomplish this in my current setup. For me, though, Alt is on my mouse, which eliminates any problems with layering.
On May 16 2012 22:58 Xenq wrote: Cheers for the response. I was just curious if you'd noticed what situations in the replays players are using the Center on Current Selection button? I can't think of a use for it and I'm wondering if I can incorporate it somehow.
To improve upon this, change the "center on current section" to the same key that sets your camera keys (Ctrl or shift in the case of Darkgrid's particular setup, but whatever modifier you plan to use will work fine) and when you set a camera location for a base it will automatically be centered on the hatch/cc/nex because the first key you pressed in the two key combination also functions to center your camera on what is selected! Get it? It's super nifty
Edit: aside from that if you put it on a nice key (nicer than `) it will be faster than double pressing a CG to center on it, but that's only if you have the room for it, and when designing this layout I gave center on current selection the lowest priority. The main use I've found for that key is for setting camera locations (base or proxy locations mostly). I can't think of any others right now.
Unfortunately in a replay file it records all camera movements as cameramovements, so clicking on the minimap will leave the same data in a replay file as using a screen hotkey to get there. Hopefully there will be a time when we have found a way around this, or blizzard changes it in their replay files for HotS (unlikely), but as of now there's no way of knowing.
I can help some with the 'Center on Current Selection' dialog.
First, I use it frequently when playing Protoss for chronoboosting a particular building that is in a control group, but not the only building in a control group. That is, when I want to chrono my Robotics Facility, but it's grouped with my gateways, starport, whatever. I activate the control group, click the wireframe of the Robo, Center on Selection, then activate my Nexus control group and chronoboost. It's the exact same process for any building I chronoboost, as they are all control grouped, but not alone, in my setup. For that reason, my 'Center on Selection' key is adjacent to my Nexus control group key in my setup.
Second, another main use is used in conjunction with re-setting camera locations. At the beginning of each game, I preliminarily set all my 8 locations, 4 of which are where I'm going to have bases. At the point where I expand to those points, after I have the CC / Nexus / Hatch planted, I center and re-save the location. Not entirely necessary, but I'm OCD like that.
Third and probably most importantly, the use of the Alt modifier for 'Center on Selection' is interesting. I wouldn't be able to in mine because Alt is used for much more than Camera Locations, but if that's the only time you use Alt in your layout, then it's ok. However, it might restrict future modifications. In this new layout, how do you activate such things as 'Idle Worker', 'Warp Gates', 'Last Alert', 'Cancel (generally Escape, but rebindable), and 'Drag Scroll'. I use Alt for all these, as well as several layered control groups, which is exactly why, in my setup, using Alt for 'Center on Selection' would be problematic. The screen would move when I didn't want it to .
Before actually writing this, I thought I had more usage of 'Center on Selection' and I use it frequently, but it's ultimately used for only a few different things in my play, albeit with high frequency, especially as Protoss. However, with HoTS coming soon, the other races may have more uses.
The chronoboost trick is soooo being incorporated into my play asap. That's awesome. Is your nexus control group pressed with a different finger than your center camera button?
I don't use "warp in" or "last alert" or "drag scroll". That's really interesting... binding drag scroll to the keyboard. What advantage do you have over mouse scroll?
On May 17 2012 12:17 JaKaTaK wrote: The chronoboost trick is soooo being incorporated into my play asap. That's awesome. Is your nexus control group pressed with a different finger than your center camera button?
I don't use warp games or last alert or drag scroll. That's really interesting... binding drag scroll to the keyboard. What advantage do you have over mouse scroll?
Well, assuming my fingers were on ASDF (which they aren't, but that's not relevant), my chronoboost sequence is EF, executed as you would in normal typing 'ef'. When I use the 'Center on Selection' technique, it's W3EF (chronoboosting production) or E3EF (chronoboosting research), with a mouse click in the wireframe preceding the 3. The 3 and E are both activated with the middle finger, but it's as efficient as necessary, since I have the time in between moving my mouse from the wireframe to the middle of the screen to execute it. The EF is absolutely the fastest combination for me, so that's nearly instantaneous. Surprisingly, since I use it so much, I am more comfortable with EF than I am with DF.
As for the drag scroll, keep in mind, my Alt is my mouse back button, so it's not really on the keyboard. I find it much better than the mouse cursor banging against the side of the screen crap I see everybody do. All I have to do is depress my thumb on the side and any mouse movement moves the screen. Instead of banging the right side of the screen a few times, followed by the top of the screen, I simply depress my thumb and move my mouse diagonal a little bit. Much easier. Comparing it to the middle mouse button is also relevant, but I find the middle mouse button a bit cumbersome to depress during gameplay, so I don't even have it bound to anything, although I use scrolling up and down for 2 control groups. Keep in mind, such configuration requires mouse driver changes, so while it's perfectly legal as far as Blizzard is concerned, tournaments may have their own restrictions.
Kaitlin, this chronoboost sequence you've thought up seems great, but I'm confused with your keybindings. What are W and 3 in your hotkey setup? I presume E is nexus and F is chrono? Where does center camera selection come in? I jumped in right at the end here so my apologies if this was already covered in previous posts.
On May 17 2012 12:17 JaKaTaK wrote: The chronoboost trick is soooo being incorporated into my play asap. That's awesome. Is your nexus control group pressed with a different finger than your center camera button?
I don't use warp games or last alert or drag scroll. That's really interesting... binding drag scroll to the keyboard. What advantage do you have over mouse scroll?
Well, assuming my fingers were on ASDF (which they aren't, but that's not relevant), my chronoboost sequence is EF, executed as you would in normal typing 'ef'. When I use the 'Center on Selection' technique, it's W3EF (chronoboosting production) or E3EF (chronoboosting research), with a mouse click in the wireframe preceding the 3. The 3 and E are both activated with the middle finger, but it's as efficient as necessary, since I have the time in between moving my mouse from the wireframe to the middle of the screen to execute it. The EF is absolutely the fastest combination for me, so that's nearly instantaneous. Surprisingly, since I use it so much, I am more comfortable with EF than I am with DF.
As for the drag scroll, keep in mind, my Alt is my mouse back button, so it's not really on the keyboard. I find it much better than the mouse cursor banging against the side of the screen crap I see everybody do. All I have to do is depress my thumb on the side and any mouse movement moves the screen. Instead of banging the right side of the screen a few times, followed by the top of the screen, I simply depress my thumb and move my mouse diagonal a little bit. Much easier. Comparing it to the middle mouse button is also relevant, but I find the middle mouse button a bit cumbersome to depress during gameplay, so I don't even have it bound to anything, although I use scrolling up and down for 2 control groups. Keep in mind, such configuration requires mouse driver changes, so while it's perfectly legal as far as Blizzard is concerned, tournaments may have their own restrictions.
On your first point, I still hold that using the same finger is less efficient than using alternating fingers.
On your second point, it seems like all of the evidence you presented is feeling based, using words like banging and crap to make mouse scrolling feel inferior, and words like simply, and easier to make drag scrolling seem superior. Do you have any objective evidence to support your feeling that drag scroll is more efficient?
(also, you need no 3rd party program to bind your mouse key to be drag scroll)
On May 17 2012 13:13 JaKaTaK wrote: Do you have any objective evidence to support your feeling that drag scroll is more efficient?
I never used to drag scroll, but I got into the habit of doing it recently, along with using layered camera keys. With the sensitivity turned up to 100% on drag scrolling, I almost never edge scroll. If you think about it, it's just terribly inefficient. You have to move your mouse all the way to the edge before any movement starts, and only then, you can really only go in one direction reliably, and going diagonally ends up alternating between the vertical and horizontal axis until you get to where you want. With drag scroll, your screen moves instantly, and with an exact precision with your mouse's movement. With drag scroll, I can reliably snap straight to any location on almost one half of a map with a single, quick wrist movement.
Also, now that I think about it, a side benefit of drag scrolling allows you to lower your overall mouse sensitivity for increased accuracy, since you no longer have to reach out to the edge of your screen to scroll. I used to play at around 50% accuracy with a 1600 dpi mouse, switched up to a 2000 dpi mouse, but dropped my sensitivity to around 29%, with drag scrolling speed at 100%.
On May 17 2012 12:17 JaKaTaK wrote: The chronoboost trick is soooo being incorporated into my play asap. That's awesome. Is your nexus control group pressed with a different finger than your center camera button?
I don't use warp games or last alert or drag scroll. That's really interesting... binding drag scroll to the keyboard. What advantage do you have over mouse scroll?
Well, assuming my fingers were on ASDF (which they aren't, but that's not relevant), my chronoboost sequence is EF, executed as you would in normal typing 'ef'. When I use the 'Center on Selection' technique, it's W3EF (chronoboosting production) or E3EF (chronoboosting research), with a mouse click in the wireframe preceding the 3. The 3 and E are both activated with the middle finger, but it's as efficient as necessary, since I have the time in between moving my mouse from the wireframe to the middle of the screen to execute it. The EF is absolutely the fastest combination for me, so that's nearly instantaneous. Surprisingly, since I use it so much, I am more comfortable with EF than I am with DF.
As for the drag scroll, keep in mind, my Alt is my mouse back button, so it's not really on the keyboard. I find it much better than the mouse cursor banging against the side of the screen crap I see everybody do. All I have to do is depress my thumb on the side and any mouse movement moves the screen. Instead of banging the right side of the screen a few times, followed by the top of the screen, I simply depress my thumb and move my mouse diagonal a little bit. Much easier. Comparing it to the middle mouse button is also relevant, but I find the middle mouse button a bit cumbersome to depress during gameplay, so I don't even have it bound to anything, although I use scrolling up and down for 2 control groups. Keep in mind, such configuration requires mouse driver changes, so while it's perfectly legal as far as Blizzard is concerned, tournaments may have their own restrictions.
On your first point, I still hold that using the same finger is less efficient than using alternating fingers.
On your second point, it seems like all of the evidence you presented is feeling based, using words like banging and crap to make mouse scrolling feel inferior, and words like simply, and easier to make drag scrolling seem superior. Do you have any objective evidence to support your feeling that drag scroll is more efficient?
(also, you need no 3rd party program to bind your mouse key to be drag scroll)
Ok, on the first point, I don't argue that it's more efficient than having two different fingers to hit the two keys, only that it's "as efficient as necessary". By that I mean how quickly you are able to 'Center on Selection', 'Select Nexus Control Group', 'Activate Chronoboost' is not important as long as you can do it in the time it takes you to move the mouse from the wireframe to the middle of the screen. I am able to execute it quicker, even though I use the same finger for 3E, than I can move the mouse pointer that distance. So, it's not the absolute, most efficient placement, but I lose no efficiency unless I get my mouse movement faster. I can still click 3EF faster, and I suspect most others can as well. Maybe you should do some kind of ergonomical analysis comparing those actions to be sure. With all the complication you are taking into account in coming up with such a well-considered hotkey layout, perhaps you should consider also a concept like 'bottlenecks'. That is, it doesn't matter how efficient a particular combination is, if they are constrained by an unrelated bottleneck anyways, in this case the bottleneck is the required movement of the mouse. To illustrate, you could make an illegal macro to execute the 'Center on Selection', 'Activate Nexus', 'Activate Chronoboost', and it wouldn't speed up your gameplay one bit because you still have to move the mouse to finish. Get the idea ?
One the second point, I know you watch and hold him in high regard, so let's review what Day9 has said about scrolling with your mouse. To paraphrase he says it's bad, don't do it. Daily #252 (cited in my signature thingie) specifically spells out that it is bad mechanics. My usage of the term 'banging' refers to the mouse cursor being moved to the very edge of the screen to 'mouse scroll' the screen. There is no derogatory intent in that term, it's simply just like banging against a wall, the edge of the screen being the wall and the mouse cursor movement as 'banging'. As far as objective evidence, does common sense count ? When people 'bang' (I use that term because I know how much you love it now) their mouse against the side of the screen to scroll, do they know precisely how much their screen is going to move ? Because when I watch people stream, they frequently have to 'bang' more than once to get the appropriate scrollage, and then of couse, they need to change axis and do the same thing against the top or bottom of the screen. Now, in the last paragraph we learned that moving the mouse cursor from the edge of the screen to the center of the screen takes a certain amount of time. Is this something you have ergonomically calculated in your analysis yet ? Probably not or you wouldn't be taking offense at my usage of the terms 'simply' and 'easier'. Now instead of 'banging' my mouse cursor against 2 sides of my screen a few times to scroll the appropriate amount on two axes, by using drag scroll instead, I "SIMPLY" hold in my thumb on Alt, serving as drag scroll on my mouse, and MOVE MY MOUSE IN THE EXACT DIRECTION I WISH TO MOVE MY SCREEN. I am not confined to the two axes. My mouse moves much less than that amount required to reach one edge of my screen, let alone two, not to mention the return trip back. What kind of 'objective evidence' were you looking for ? FFS, I try to add some input to give people (not just you and Foxy) some ideas about improvements they can make to their setups, and you jump my shit like you're in the Mousescroller Union Local 246. Sheesh. With all your detailed ergonomic work, I'm interested for you to demonstrate that Mouse Scrolling is good, when even Day9 says it's bad.
(also, you DO need your mouse driver to bind 'Alt' to your mouse key). That is done outside the game. Inside the game, I set the hotkey for drag scroll to Alt.
On May 17 2012 13:09 bgalang92 wrote: Kaitlin, this chronoboost sequence you've thought up seems great, but I'm confused with your keybindings. What are W and 3 in your hotkey setup? I presume E is nexus and F is chrono? Where does center camera selection come in? I jumped in right at the end here so my apologies if this was already covered in previous posts.
Yeah, W is my control group for all my production, so Gateways / Warpgates, Stargates, and Robotics Facilities. E is for Nexus and all research, including Forges, Twilight Council, Templar Archives, Fleet Beacon, Robotics Bay. 3 is 'Center on Selection' and can be found in the hotkey settings under Camera settings. F is Chronoboost, yes.
The sequence is to select the control group including the building you want to chrono, so it's either W or E. Click the wireframe of the specific building you want to chronoboost which will leave only that building selected. 3 centers the camera on that building. E activates the Nexus control group for the cast of Chronoboost, which is F.
Once learned, it's a very easy sequence to execute and has become automatic. I've gotten to the point where everytime I activate either of those control groups (E or W) and I see a white dot, my brain is programmed to click on it and chrono it. I've found that I chrono'd much more frequently once I made it easier to accomplish. Old style 1 C or 4 C or whatever in standard didn't lend itself to ease of use, at least not enough for me.
On May 17 2012 13:13 JaKaTaK wrote: Do you have any objective evidence to support your feeling that drag scroll is more efficient?
I never used to drag scroll, but I got into the habit of doing it recently, along with using layered camera keys. With the sensitivity turned up to 100% on drag scrolling, I almost never edge scroll. If you think about it, it's just terribly inefficient. You have to move your mouse all the way to the edge before any movement starts, and only then, you can really only go in one direction reliably, and going diagonally ends up alternating between the vertical and horizontal axis until you get to where you want. With drag scroll, your screen moves instantly, and with an exact precision with your mouse's movement. With drag scroll, I can reliably snap straight to any location on almost one half of a map with a single, quick wrist movement.
Also, now that I think about it, a side benefit of drag scrolling allows you to lower your overall mouse sensitivity for increased accuracy, since you no longer have to reach out to the edge of your screen to scroll. I used to play at around 50% accuracy with a 1600 dpi mouse, switched up to a 2000 dpi mouse, but dropped my sensitivity to around 29%, with drag scrolling speed at 100%.
You're so much kinder than me, but then I guess I get a little tired of being asked for mathematical proofs that the sky is blue.
One thing that stands out as unacceptable, for me, personally, about using Drag Scroll, is the need to constantly pick up your mouse* and re-position it in order to keep your mouse in the center of your mouse pad, whereas this is not necessary using the conventional method.
Haha, Kaitlin, you are taking JaKaTaK questioning much too personally. However, I agree with you in the logic of it I think its good that JaKaTaK is trying hard to be objective, and I am definitely planning on moving to his new keyboard layout when it comes out, as mine is pretty much crap.
When you suggested your way of scrolling, I (because I'm not trying to build the uber keyboard layout, JaKaTaK is...) I was already sold. Thank you for the suggestion, I'm definitely going to do it your way when I do my keyboard switch! Its awesome, I wish I had thought of it!
JaKaTaK - I'm convinced that mousing to the edge of the screen to scroll the window is not productive, that pressing a key and then moving your mouse to change the viewport of the map is more efficient. You obviously don't have to move the mouse as far, so the question is is a key press to activate the drag scroll mode faster than moving the cursor to the side of the screen. I don't think there is much arguing that you can do, a key press is going to be faster. And the increased accuracy is a real bonus as well (ie. you control the direction better).
I definitely will want to do it this way, even though I bet it'll take some getting used to...
In my opinion, this isn't that good. I think that people with no experience won't search for such like this, because they don't know where to or they don't even imagine that this kind of thing exists. Than comes the fact that starcraft 2 population grows slower than in the first seasons and somone from higher leagues wont switch for a new hotkey. It can take a while to get it working.It looks like this hotkey keeps your fingers so closed, it would be enough to switch everything from YHN or maybe UJM to something closer to be easier to use, for ex. I saw once or twice Stephano using his custom hotkey. I appreciate your work but is this cost effective ? However your job looks amazing bro ! Keep it up!
On May 17 2012 12:17 JaKaTaK wrote: The chronoboost trick is soooo being incorporated into my play asap. That's awesome. Is your nexus control group pressed with a different finger than your center camera button?
I don't use warp games or last alert or drag scroll. That's really interesting... binding drag scroll to the keyboard. What advantage do you have over mouse scroll?
Well, assuming my fingers were on ASDF (which they aren't, but that's not relevant), my chronoboost sequence is EF, executed as you would in normal typing 'ef'. When I use the 'Center on Selection' technique, it's W3EF (chronoboosting production) or E3EF (chronoboosting research), with a mouse click in the wireframe preceding the 3. The 3 and E are both activated with the middle finger, but it's as efficient as necessary, since I have the time in between moving my mouse from the wireframe to the middle of the screen to execute it. The EF is absolutely the fastest combination for me, so that's nearly instantaneous. Surprisingly, since I use it so much, I am more comfortable with EF than I am with DF.
As for the drag scroll, keep in mind, my Alt is my mouse back button, so it's not really on the keyboard. I find it much better than the mouse cursor banging against the side of the screen crap I see everybody do. All I have to do is depress my thumb on the side and any mouse movement moves the screen. Instead of banging the right side of the screen a few times, followed by the top of the screen, I simply depress my thumb and move my mouse diagonal a little bit. Much easier. Comparing it to the middle mouse button is also relevant, but I find the middle mouse button a bit cumbersome to depress during gameplay, so I don't even have it bound to anything, although I use scrolling up and down for 2 control groups. Keep in mind, such configuration requires mouse driver changes, so while it's perfectly legal as far as Blizzard is concerned, tournaments may have their own restrictions.
On your first point, I still hold that using the same finger is less efficient than using alternating fingers.
On your second point, it seems like all of the evidence you presented is feeling based, using words like banging and crap to make mouse scrolling feel inferior, and words like simply, and easier to make drag scrolling seem superior. Do you have any objective evidence to support your feeling that drag scroll is more efficient?
(also, you need no 3rd party program to bind your mouse key to be drag scroll)
Ok, on the first point, I don't argue that it's more efficient than having two different fingers to hit the two keys, only that it's "as efficient as necessary". By that I mean how quickly you are able to 'Center on Selection', 'Select Nexus Control Group', 'Activate Chronoboost' is not important as long as you can do it in the time it takes you to move the mouse from the wireframe to the middle of the screen. I am able to execute it quicker, even though I use the same finger for 3E, than I can move the mouse pointer that distance. So, it's not the absolute, most efficient placement, but I lose no efficiency unless I get my mouse movement faster. I can still click 3EF faster, and I suspect most others can as well. Maybe you should do some kind of ergonomical analysis comparing those actions to be sure. With all the complication you are taking into account in coming up with such a well-considered hotkey layout, perhaps you should consider also a concept like 'bottlenecks'. That is, it doesn't matter how efficient a particular combination is, if they are constrained by an unrelated bottleneck anyways, in this case the bottleneck is the required movement of the mouse. To illustrate, you could make an illegal macro to execute the 'Center on Selection', 'Activate Nexus', 'Activate Chronoboost', and it wouldn't speed up your gameplay one bit because you still have to move the mouse to finish. Get the idea ?
One the second point, I know you watch and hold him in high regard, so let's review what Day9 has said about scrolling with your mouse. To paraphrase he says it's bad, don't do it. Daily #252 (cited in my signature thingie) specifically spells out that it is bad mechanics. My usage of the term 'banging' refers to the mouse cursor being moved to the very edge of the screen to 'mouse scroll' the screen. There is no derogatory intent in that term, it's simply just like banging against a wall, the edge of the screen being the wall and the mouse cursor movement as 'banging'. As far as objective evidence, does common sense count ? When people 'bang' (I use that term because I know how much you love it now) their mouse against the side of the screen to scroll, do they know precisely how much their screen is going to move ? Because when I watch people stream, they frequently have to 'bang' more than once to get the appropriate scrollage, and then of couse, they need to change axis and do the same thing against the top or bottom of the screen. Now, in the last paragraph we learned that moving the mouse cursor from the edge of the screen to the center of the screen takes a certain amount of time. Is this something you have ergonomically calculated in your analysis yet ? Probably not or you wouldn't be taking offense at my usage of the terms 'simply' and 'easier'. Now instead of 'banging' my mouse cursor against 2 sides of my screen a few times to scroll the appropriate amount on two axes, by using drag scroll instead, I "SIMPLY" hold in my thumb on Alt, serving as drag scroll on my mouse, and MOVE MY MOUSE IN THE EXACT DIRECTION I WISH TO MOVE MY SCREEN. I am not confined to the two axes. My mouse moves much less than that amount required to reach one edge of my screen, let alone two, not to mention the return trip back. What kind of 'objective evidence' were you looking for ? FFS, I try to add some input to give people (not just you and Foxy) some ideas about improvements they can make to their setups, and you jump my shit like you're in the Mousescroller Union Local 246. Sheesh. With all your detailed ergonomic work, I'm interested for you to demonstrate that Mouse Scrolling is good, when even Day9 says it's bad.
(also, you DO need your mouse driver to bind 'Alt' to your mouse key). That is done outside the game. Inside the game, I set the hotkey for drag scroll to Alt.
I think you are misinterpreting my response as emotional and responding back with your own emotional response to counter mine. I was not in any way upset when I wrote that comment, and I am not in any way upset now. I apologize if my language is too direct and assumes you won't take things personally that aren't personal, but, that is the only way I have found to communicate while being as honest, accurate, and transparent in my thoughts as possible; this is the way I choose to communicate; I am sorry if you do not like it. (this last is a genuine statement and not a colloquialism)
That being said, I was criticizing your language, not you. This is not a personal attack. You used language that was not objective and explained nothing as to why you thought drag scroll was more efficient than mouse scroll. You have proven many times to have excellent ideas concerning hotkey layouts, so it would be stupid to take everything you say as correct without taking the opportunity to ask you questions in order to fully understand your thought process. It would be stupid to assume that I know all the reasons you know about why mouse scrolling is bad and drag scrolling is good. It is the understanding of the reasons and process that are the most valuable things to gain from this type of a discussion, not the conclusions. Also, by using that kind of language, you leave no room for debate to bring in points you may not have thought of, such as:
On May 17 2012 20:36 cosimorondo wrote: One thing that stands out as unacceptable, for me, personally, about using Drag Scroll, is the need to constantly pick up your mouse* and re-position it in order to keep your mouse in the center of your mouse pad, whereas this is not necessary using the conventional method.
Is this enough to make the case for mouse scroll vs drag scroll? I don't know, but I am very interested in considering everyone's opinion on the matter and weighing them all out to make a conclusion that leaves room for more discussion and assumes that something else will probably come up that I wasn't thinking about because it is nearly impossible to think of everything about anything.
Also, note the kind of language that comes up in order to counter your taking something personal that is not inherently personal. Cosimorondo has to take up half a line saying "One thing that stands out as unacceptable, for me, personally, about using Drag Scroll" just to make sure to not offend you by making a disagreement to an opinion you have. People have entire conversations like this, where one person is constantly walking on eggshells in order to not offend the other person, wasting tons of time and making discussion more difficult in the process. I will not coddle anyone's insecurities or frustrations about having to explain where they are coming from, or about anything else. Do not expect it of me.
I understand I am asking you to make an exception for me; to trust that unless I am doing something like typing all caps that I am speaking in a calm manner, and am not attacking you personally when I talk about ideas you have and language you use; I am literally talking about the ideas and the language themselves, not you as a person. Speaking in this way allows for direct and efficient communication, the challenging of assumptions, and promotes curiosity.
In addition, Day9 has said that drag scrolling should only be used for observers and casters (I'll look it up for you to and edit with the direct quote when I can) which is actually the reason why I have stayed away from it for so long; but nothing and no one is above logic. Nothing and no one is above questioning. I will continue to question everything, criticize everything, and speak as accurately, honestly, and directly as I can regardless of the social consequences. I hope you can understand that I meant no personal offense by anything I said, apologize for any hurt I caused, and continue to work with us as we pool our thoughts and thought processes in order to increase keyboard layout efficiency in Starcraft 2.
On May 17 2012 19:45 Xenq wrote: Thanks for the tips re: Center on Current Selection.
When you finish up are you going to release the data you have compiled from the replays? It sounds interesting and I wouldn't mind a look.
I should be finishing up the tables today. Please keep in mind, if we do decide to release them for everyone to look at that this is far from final, and starting to make criticisms now would be a waste of time, as we are still in the process of creating this layout. This is super alpha, everything is subject to change. That being said, I think that it would be cool to release the data in a google doc or something
On May 17 2012 22:50 matrius wrote: Haha, Kaitlin, you are taking JaKaTaK questioning much too personally. However, I agree with you in the logic of it I think its good that JaKaTaK is trying hard to be objective, and I am definitely planning on moving to his new keyboard layout when it comes out, as mine is pretty much crap.
When you suggested your way of scrolling, I (because I'm not trying to build the uber keyboard layout, JaKaTaK is...) I was already sold. Thank you for the suggestion, I'm definitely going to do it your way when I do my keyboard switch! Its awesome, I wish I had thought of it!
JaKaTaK - I'm convinced that mousing to the edge of the screen to scroll the window is not productive, that pressing a key and then moving your mouse to change the viewport of the map is more efficient. You obviously don't have to move the mouse as far, so the question is is a key press to activate the drag scroll mode faster than moving the cursor to the side of the screen. I don't think there is much arguing that you can do, a key press is going to be faster. And the increased accuracy is a real bonus as well (ie. you control the direction better).
I definitely will want to do it this way, even though I bet it'll take some getting used to...
Thanks!
Thank you for understanding what I mean. I am very interested in investigating the pros and cons of mouse scroll vs drag scroll. The increased accuracy is definitely an interesting point, but if you can be as accurate at 1000dpi as 1500dpi, why not play at 1500? There is a point where too much sensitivity will begin to hurt your hand by putting too much stress on the fine motor skill muscles in your hand, but my question still stands as I believe that 1500dpi does not cross this threshold. Speed and Accuracy are often on a see-saw; you lose one to gain the other, the goal i think is to find the balance where their sum is the greatest. However, this is an incredibly hard question to answer and each persons hand is different. Any ideas?
On May 18 2012 01:45 SmuZ wrote: In my opinion, this isn't that good. I think that people with no experience won't search for such like this, because they don't know where to or they don't even imagine that this kind of thing exists. Than comes the fact that starcraft 2 population grows slower than in the first seasons and somone from higher leagues wont switch for a new hotkey. It can take a while to get it working.It looks like this hotkey keeps your fingers so closed, it would be enough to switch everything from YHN or maybe UJM to something closer to be easier to use, for ex. I saw once or twice Stephano using his custom hotkey. I appreciate your work but is this cost effective ? However your job looks amazing bro ! Keep it up!
This is interesting to me because people have posted that Stephano uses grid and either neglect to mention that he has altered it, or do not know. I am finding it hard to understand your language, but I am doing my best. What do you mean by "won't search for such like this" and "this isn't good" and "it would be enough to switch everything from YHN or maybe UJM to something closer to be easier to use" I apologize for missing your meaning here.
Our goal is to find the most efficient hotkey layout possible. If it is good enough to give players an edge in their games, not to try and convince all the pros and everyone else that they should make the switch. We believe that the efficiency of the layout will speak for itself; players who want to have the advantage of a more efficient layout will switch, those who don't will not. It is impossible to make a layout that is both easy to switch to and optimally efficient, when you add to one, you sacrifice from the other. On one hand you will have, sticking to a standard or lightly modified layout, and on the other will be TheCore. The choice is always for each individual player to make, I can't perform inception
EPT
