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[G] TheCore Lite - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 14

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Hylite
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany21 Posts
May 13 2012 23:22 GMT
#261
Never used the stop hotkey as far I can recall.
Hebbedehäh
HGurryp
Profile Joined July 2011
275 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 01:32:46
May 14 2012 01:17 GMT
#262
Im going to test but is this really good?
well im protoss but for select all warp gates i need press ctrl+shift+]? lol
popados
Profile Joined April 2012
United States7 Posts
May 14 2012 01:21 GMT
#263
Very anxious to see the new layout. I caught a glimpse of the hand position in Jak's twitch video and I'm quite intrigued. A little worried however because I don't think it will work with a 6gv2 steelseries. The right-shift button is smaller than most keyboards. Very problematic trying to hit it with your thumb.

At any rate I can't wait for this to be done, or at the very least get a peek at how the layout is going to be. I've been holding off on long sessions of sc2 just to try this. Getting antsy! ^^
zeroISM
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Japan161 Posts
May 14 2012 07:26 GMT
#264
About the STOP command I only use it when I'm (zerg) chasing his retreating army with lings.
Instead of running until you passed by his units, hitting STOP while running around his army makes the lings do 1 attack - it's almost like Marine stutter step.
♘
Akinokaze
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia326 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 08:27:14
May 14 2012 08:25 GMT
#265
Using hold achieves the same thing though, and without the very slight delay you get with stop. The only use that comes to mind is holding stop on Ghosts/Sentries while you shift queue Snipe/Forcefield instead of just spam clicking. Using hold in this situation means the they're still attacking while you queue the skill, so they end up killing their current target before carrying out the order.

Using S - click - S - click - S - click is so much easier though, I don't even know if you can make an argument that it comes down to preference.
In the Emperor we trust
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
May 14 2012 09:07 GMT
#266
On May 14 2012 17:25 Akinokaze wrote:
Using hold achieves the same thing though, and without the very slight delay you get with stop. The only use that comes to mind is holding stop on Ghosts/Sentries while you shift queue Snipe/Forcefield instead of just spam clicking. Using hold in this situation means the they're still attacking while you queue the skill, so they end up killing their current target before carrying out the order.

Using S - click - S - click - S - click is so much easier though, I don't even know if you can make an argument that it comes down to preference.

Hold and Stop is not the same. If you hunt with lings and want to surround, stop is superior since the lings lagging behind will keep running towards the marines, and the lings in front will start the block. Using hold means you're not improving the surround, just getting hits in. Stop does the same thing but improves the surround and has the potential to allow even more hits since lings just out of range will move in and attack.

Stop is 90% of the time better when you're being offensive, hold is better when being defensive, such as stutter-step retreating.
Account252508
Profile Joined February 2012
3454 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 11:08:44
May 14 2012 11:08 GMT
#267
--- Nuked ---
zeroISM
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Japan161 Posts
May 14 2012 11:34 GMT
#268
On May 14 2012 20:08 monkybone wrote:
Show nested quote +

Hold and Stop is not the same. If you hunt with lings and want to surround, stop is superior since the lings lagging behind will keep running towards the marines, and the lings in front will start the block. Using hold means you're not improving the surround, just getting hits in. Stop does the same thing but improves the surround and has the potential to allow even more hits since lings just out of range will move in and attack.

Stop is 90% of the time better when you're being offensive, hold is better when being defensive, such as stutter-step retreating.


Why can't you use attack move here?


You CAN use Attack Move, but it will be 1 more key that you press:
S vs A*click*

Using the attack move brings up three dangerous things:
1. Accidentaly clicking on 1 marine and then all your lings will start to try to attack only that marine, stopping attack on all of the others that are running away.
2. *Clicking* before the 'A' keypress, which will cause you to deselect your group of lings for a moment.
3. Overly spending your APM on micro, thus causing your macro to slip.

In Micro situations, considering you and your opponent are equally skilled, if you are having to do more actions than your opponent, he has the advantage over you.
♘
SpikeStarcraft
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany2095 Posts
May 14 2012 14:52 GMT
#269
I dont get how this would be more efficient than grid layout
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-12 18:58:58
May 14 2012 15:59 GMT
#270
On May 14 2012 08:22 Hylite wrote:
Never used the stop hotkey as far I can recall.


Cool, thanks man :D

On May 14 2012 10:17 HGurryp wrote:
Im going to test but is this really good?
well im protoss but for select all warp gates i need press ctrl+shift+]? lol


I don't use the select warp gate button because I use tabbed production (saves space). anything on a triple bind is there so that it doesn't get hit accidentally.

On May 14 2012 10:21 popados wrote:
Very anxious to see the new layout. I caught a glimpse of the hand position in Jak's twitch video and I'm quite intrigued. A little worried however because I don't think it will work with a 6gv2 steelseries. The right-shift button is smaller than most keyboards. Very problematic trying to hit it with your thumb.

At any rate I can't wait for this to be done, or at the very least get a peek at how the layout is going to be. I've been holding off on long sessions of sc2 just to try this. Getting antsy! ^^



Soon. I'm doing more coding to get the data output in a more digestible form so we can apply the tournament data we aggregated to the hotkey layout. Then I have to apply it to the right handed version (I play lefty). Next time I talk to Foxy (hopefully today) we'll discuss when we can get the very volatile verstions of the layout out for testing purposes.

Edit: Why do you think it wouldn't work with a 6gv2. I looked at pictures and it seems that it would work just fine.

On May 14 2012 16:26 zeroISM wrote:
About the STOP command I only use it when I'm (zerg) chasing his retreating army with lings.
Instead of running until you passed by his units, hitting STOP while running around his army makes the lings do 1 attack - it's almost like Marine stutter step.


That's really interesting. Thanks :D

On May 14 2012 20:34 zeroISM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2012 20:08 monkybone wrote:

Hold and Stop is not the same. If you hunt with lings and want to surround, stop is superior since the lings lagging behind will keep running towards the marines, and the lings in front will start the block. Using hold means you're not improving the surround, just getting hits in. Stop does the same thing but improves the surround and has the potential to allow even more hits since lings just out of range will move in and attack.

Stop is 90% of the time better when you're being offensive, hold is better when being defensive, such as stutter-step retreating.


Why can't you use attack move here?


You CAN use Attack Move, but it will be 1 more key that you press:
S vs A*click*

Using the attack move brings up three dangerous things:
1. Accidentaly clicking on 1 marine and then all your lings will start to try to attack only that marine, stopping attack on all of the others that are running away.
2. *Clicking* before the 'A' keypress, which will cause you to deselect your group of lings for a moment.
3. Overly spending your APM on micro, thus causing your macro to slip.

In Micro situations, considering you and your opponent are equally skilled, if you are having to do more actions than your opponent, he has the advantage over you.


1. Accidentally clicking on your own units while a-moving is not something we'll be designing the layout around
2. same as #1
3. A player should only be using the APM he/she has on the game, Macro>Micro (almost all the time)

I agree though that it is an extra keypress and is therefore less efficient. I'll be testing these scenarios. Thank you everyone for your input, it is very helpful. :D

On May 14 2012 23:52 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I dont get how this would be more efficient than grid layout


The more efficient layout will match the most pressed keys to the most comfortable/fastest keypresses. Attack move is the most executed command for any race in an average game of starcraft by far. Having that command not bound to a home key (a key you rest your fingers on) is a serious lack in efficiency. This example is 1 of many inefficiencies with the grid layout. Another excellent one would be the control groups 8-0. Why would you want a key to be that far away from you ever?

What is your case for the efficiency of grid over Chameleon?
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
goose114
Profile Joined April 2011
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 18:29:54
May 14 2012 18:29 GMT
#271
Thank you for all of the effort you've put into this so far. I'm coming back to the game after a few months of not playing, and am switching races, so I'm also going to take the plunge and learn an efficient hotkey setup.

Would you say that the new layout will likely be better than JaKaTaK Righty with the HHKB Pro 2 keyboard? I've played around with JaKaTaK Righty some, and I like it so far, only I have to move the base camera and center camera hotkeys to Mouse 4 and Mouse 5. Mostly I'm wondering if the new layout will have more keys I need to move due to the abnormal layout of my keyboard.
SpikeStarcraft
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany2095 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 19:36:44
May 14 2012 19:35 GMT
#272
i dont support the assumption that attack move is the most pressed key in an average game. Are there any statistics about that?
When i think about my most pressed key in grid layout it would probably be Q for building stuff in the top left of the building menu like scvs, marines, hellions, vikings, upgrades..
by minute 10 i've effectively (without spamming) hitten Q 50 times for probes + 30-40 times for marines. No way im attack moving nearly as often.

Also having lift off buildings and stop building on the same hotkey could be very frustrating.
And im not sure if you meant to have hold fire for ghosts on K and I so far away. You essentially need that for sniping HTs, because if u dont use hold fire, u cant snipe fast enough. otherwise ghosts do this auto attack between snipe shots and u will catch a lot of storms and be dead.

Those two things have to be mistakes or you've just never really played terran before.

Im not trying to be a pain in the ass, i just see those things and think this cant be right.
Account252508
Profile Joined February 2012
3454 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-14 21:06:37
May 14 2012 21:06 GMT
#273
--- Nuked ---
cosimorondo
Profile Joined November 2010
United States78 Posts
May 14 2012 23:43 GMT
#274
On the topic of stop commands, as a zerg, sometimes I will inject with my queen hotkey and a queen goes astray to the wrong hatch and I want my queens to stop moving, but I want them to still respond to incoming flying units by chasing them, or scvs sneaking past or zergling run bys, etc.

Basically, any time I want my units to stop moving, but I want them to aggro, I use stop instead of hold, same for positioning my zerglings early game in a ZvZ, I want them to move to intercept scouting zerglings, so i will move them and the use the stop command when they are in the exact spot i want.

Account252508
Profile Joined February 2012
3454 Posts
May 15 2012 00:40 GMT
#275
--- Nuked ---
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-12 18:59:46
May 15 2012 03:58 GMT
#276
On May 15 2012 03:29 goose114 wrote:
Thank you for all of the effort you've put into this so far. I'm coming back to the game after a few months of not playing, and am switching races, so I'm also going to take the plunge and learn an efficient hotkey setup.

Would you say that the new layout will likely be better than [Chameleon] with the HHKB Pro 2 keyboard? I've played around with [Chameleon] some, and I like it so far, only I have to move the base camera and center camera hotkeys to Mouse 4 and Mouse 5. Mostly I'm wondering if the new layout will have more keys I need to move due to the abnormal layout of my keyboard.


Holy shit, that keyboard is dope. Chameleon is much much better on that keyboard than any other I've seen. TheCore relies on the standard keyboard layout setup. Especially of Shift Ctrl and Alt. It will not work well on an HHKB Pro 2 as far as I can see. However, if you are sticking with this keyboard, Chameleon is even better IMO.

On May 15 2012 04:35 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
i dont support the assumption that attack move is the most pressed key in an average game. Are there any statistics about that?
When i think about my most pressed key in grid layout it would probably be Q for building stuff in the top left of the building menu like scvs, marines, hellions, vikings, upgrades..
by minute 10 i've effectively (without spamming) hitten Q 50 times for probes + 30-40 times for marines. No way im attack moving nearly as often.

Also having lift off buildings and stop building on the same hotkey could be very frustrating.
And im not sure if you meant to have hold fire for ghosts on K and I so far away. You essentially need that for sniping HTs, because if u dont use hold fire, u cant snipe fast enough. otherwise ghosts do this auto attack between snipe shots and u will catch a lot of storms and be dead.

Those two things have to be mistakes or you've just never really played terran before.

Im not trying to be a pain in the ass, i just see those things and think this cant be right.


So far, with the help of a program made by Voltaire, FoxyMayhem and I have found and crunched command execution data from more than 700 tournament games. In all races, A-move was the most executed command by a fucking long shot. But not to worry, we aren't stopping at a mere 700 games, we'll be aggregating as much data as possible to have an accurate and exact list of every command that can be assigned a hotkey in Sc2 and how often it is pressed in an average tournament game in order to fully optimize the new layout TheCore.

As for the hold fire, I didn't realize that it was a necessary command. I found out recently that it was, this will be rectified. Thanks for the input.

On May 15 2012 06:06 monkybone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2012 20:34 zeroISM wrote:


Using the attack move brings up three dangerous things:
1. Accidentaly clicking on 1 marine and then all your lings will start to try to attack only that marine, stopping attack on all of the others that are running away.
2. *Clicking* before the 'A' keypress, which will cause you to deselect your group of lings for a moment.
3. Overly spending your APM on micro, thus causing your macro to slip.

.


I don't agree with these arguments.
1. I kite all the time with a-move, I never use stop. Can't remember I ever misclicked on another unit.
2. A left-click on the ground won't deselect your units.
3. Really? -.- a-move instead stop causes macro to slip? please


Thank you monkeybone.

On May 15 2012 08:43 cosimorondo wrote:
On the topic of stop commands, as a zerg, sometimes I will inject with my queen hotkey and a queen goes astray to the wrong hatch and I want my queens to stop moving, but I want them to still respond to incoming flying units by chasing them, or scvs sneaking past or zergling run bys, etc.

Basically, any time I want my units to stop moving, but I want them to aggro, I use stop instead of hold, same for positioning my zerglings early game in a ZvZ, I want them to move to intercept scouting zerglings, so i will move them and the use the stop command when they are in the exact spot i want.



Cool cool man. Thanks for the input. :D

On May 15 2012 09:40 monkybone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 08:43 cosimorondo wrote:

Basically, any time I want my units to stop moving, but I want them to aggro, I use stop instead of hold, same for positioning my zerglings early game in a ZvZ, I want them to move to intercept scouting zerglings, so i will move them and the use the stop command when they are in the exact spot i want.



Pretty much this. Stop is essential in these situations.

Consider TvT with a viking on viking battle. If you have selected your vikings, and they are moving, but you are not looking at them, making them hold position to stop will be devastating if the enemy vikings attack. You want all your vikings to react and attack. And move/attack-move while not looking at the vikings is not practical.


Why are you not looking at your vikings while they need to be micro-ed?
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
May 15 2012 04:22 GMT
#277
On May 15 2012 12:58 JaKaTaK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 03:29 goose114 wrote:
Thank you for all of the effort you've put into this so far. I'm coming back to the game after a few months of not playing, and am switching races, so I'm also going to take the plunge and learn an efficient hotkey setup.

Would you say that the new layout will likely be better than JaKaTaK Righty with the HHKB Pro 2 keyboard? I've played around with JaKaTaK Righty some, and I like it so far, only I have to move the base camera and center camera hotkeys to Mouse 4 and Mouse 5. Mostly I'm wondering if the new layout will have more keys I need to move due to the abnormal layout of my keyboard.


Holy shit, that keyboard is dope. JaKaTaK Righty is much much better on that keyboard than any other I've seen. The new layout relies on the standard keyboard layout setup. Especially of Shift Ctrl and Alt. It will not work well on an HHKB Pro 2 as far as I can see. However, if you are sticking with this keyboard, JaKaTaK Righty is even better IMO.

Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 04:35 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
i dont support the assumption that attack move is the most pressed key in an average game. Are there any statistics about that?
When i think about my most pressed key in grid layout it would probably be Q for building stuff in the top left of the building menu like scvs, marines, hellions, vikings, upgrades..
by minute 10 i've effectively (without spamming) hitten Q 50 times for probes + 30-40 times for marines. No way im attack moving nearly as often.

Also having lift off buildings and stop building on the same hotkey could be very frustrating.
And im not sure if you meant to have hold fire for ghosts on K and I so far away. You essentially need that for sniping HTs, because if u dont use hold fire, u cant snipe fast enough. otherwise ghosts do this auto attack between snipe shots and u will catch a lot of storms and be dead.

Those two things have to be mistakes or you've just never really played terran before.

Im not trying to be a pain in the ass, i just see those things and think this cant be right.


So far, with the help of a program made by Voltaire, FoxyMayhem and I have found and crunched command execution data from more than 700 tournament games. In all races, A-move was the most executed command by a fucking long shot. But not to worry, we aren't stopping at a mere 700 games, we'll be aggregating as much data as possible to have an accurate and exact list of every command that can be assigned a hotkey in Sc2 and how often it is pressed in an average tournament game in order to fully optimize the new layouts Chameleon and Storm.

As for the hold fire, I didn't realize that it was a necessary command. I found out recently that it was, this will be rectified. Thanks for the input.

Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 06:06 monkybone wrote:
On May 14 2012 20:34 zeroISM wrote:


Using the attack move brings up three dangerous things:
1. Accidentaly clicking on 1 marine and then all your lings will start to try to attack only that marine, stopping attack on all of the others that are running away.
2. *Clicking* before the 'A' keypress, which will cause you to deselect your group of lings for a moment.
3. Overly spending your APM on micro, thus causing your macro to slip.

.


I don't agree with these arguments.
1. I kite all the time with a-move, I never use stop. Can't remember I ever misclicked on another unit.
2. A left-click on the ground won't deselect your units.
3. Really? -.- a-move instead stop causes macro to slip? please


Thank you monkeybone.

Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 08:43 cosimorondo wrote:
On the topic of stop commands, as a zerg, sometimes I will inject with my queen hotkey and a queen goes astray to the wrong hatch and I want my queens to stop moving, but I want them to still respond to incoming flying units by chasing them, or scvs sneaking past or zergling run bys, etc.

Basically, any time I want my units to stop moving, but I want them to aggro, I use stop instead of hold, same for positioning my zerglings early game in a ZvZ, I want them to move to intercept scouting zerglings, so i will move them and the use the stop command when they are in the exact spot i want.



Cool cool man. Thanks for the input. :D

Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 09:40 monkybone wrote:
On May 15 2012 08:43 cosimorondo wrote:

Basically, any time I want my units to stop moving, but I want them to aggro, I use stop instead of hold, same for positioning my zerglings early game in a ZvZ, I want them to move to intercept scouting zerglings, so i will move them and the use the stop command when they are in the exact spot i want.



Pretty much this. Stop is essential in these situations.

Consider TvT with a viking on viking battle. If you have selected your vikings, and they are moving, but you are not looking at them, making them hold position to stop will be devastating if the enemy vikings attack. You want all your vikings to react and attack. And move/attack-move while not looking at the vikings is not practical.


Why are you not looking at your vikings while they need to be micro-ed?


My guess would be that the saying "Shit Happens" applies here. Sometimes your attention is elsewhere on something more important. It's good to know your Vikings don't go 'full retard mode' anytime you're not watching them.
Account252508
Profile Joined February 2012
3454 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-15 10:05:24
May 15 2012 10:04 GMT
#278
--- Nuked ---
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-15 11:18:18
May 15 2012 11:14 GMT
#279
On May 15 2012 19:04 monkybone wrote:
Show nested quote +


Pretty much this. Stop is essential in these situations.

Consider TvT with a viking on viking battle. If you have selected your vikings, and they are moving, but you are not looking at them, making them hold position to stop will be devastating if the enemy vikings attack. You want all your vikings to react and attack. And move/attack-move while not looking at the vikings is not practical.


Why are you not looking at your vikings while they need to be micro-ed?


Some times you have to move your army while doing others things. As the poster above me said, you don't want your vikings to be like sitting ducks once the enemy appear.

Viking flower with patrol seems wayyyyy better to use here.

Sure it requires a few seconds of focus, but it's more worth it than hitting stop. Remember, when you press stop it means that your units will attack the enemy when they come into range, then they will follow a short distance and give up. In the end, stop is exactly the same as hold position in a normal battle.

Just to clear out any and all misinterpretations, ever seen vikings spread out? They won't all magically go towards the enemy vikings just because one got shot. This isn't real life, this is Starcraft, where you have to issue a command for everything.
Account252508
Profile Joined February 2012
3454 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-15 12:26:47
May 15 2012 12:25 GMT
#280
--- Nuked ---
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