On May 02 2012 07:34 ][Primarch][ wrote: Gaulzi, the new combatEx/Deezer but with cheese every game cause he cannot for his life actually play this game. It's sad to see people in the community think that this is fun, they watch his replays and laugh. It disgusted me to watch day9 cast a bunch of his games and laugh his ass of.
People saying cannons are op are kinda dumbs. The guy is so freaking good at cannon rushing, he know every freaking flaw on the maps and btw he have high masters/gm reaction speed. We have seen a shitload of high masters/gm 6 poolers or marine all iners, but never a pure cannon rusher. This guy is so good, watching his cannon rushes was so freaking fun xd
anyone dismissing it as just a dumb, easy to beat strat is dead wrong. this is a cheese that sees action in the GSL on occasion. and this guy got to GM doing it. if the cannon rusher is around your level skill-wise and manages to get a cannon up, you are in deep trouble.
i judge this to be even more effective than the BW cannon rush was. i cant place my finger on why exactly, but i think it has to do with the fact that buildings wall so much better in SC2. things like a probe-proof wall made of pylons were not possible in sc1. you could at most make it so 1-2 workers could attack the cannon, but you could never wall them out entirely.
On May 02 2012 09:54 YoureFired wrote: I know that in PvP in Brood War at least, most protosses figured out a decent way to answer to this.
Simply put your first pylon in an awkward spot behind your mineral line so that it blocks any sort of cannon cheese. Your first gateway will be slightly out of place, but otherwise the rest of your buildings can go around your second pylon and continue from there.
This is a good observation. In fact on maps like XNC and Daybreak, Protoss pro players often build a pylon as you mentioned to block these spots. Unfortunately for terran and zerg a defense is not so easy as doing that and building a forge, but to some extent protoss still needs to pull some workers to deal with pylons and cannons.
On May 02 2012 10:05 Heh_ wrote: You only need to kill the cannon to stop his cannon rush. You don't need to work through the 2/3 pylons. If he built more than 1 cannon, his own expansion is also severely delayed. The cannon rusher cuts probes at 12-14.. you can still drone up while all this is happening.You're not at a significant economic disadvantage. If both players decide to expand, your hatch isn't too far behind his; you can also build 2 hatcheries just like playing vs a delayed FFE. If the protoss player expands, he has to further invest in cannons to keep himself safe against any potential allin. If he stays on 1 base, any tech is at least 4 minutes away and by this time, your expansion is secured and saturated, so it's just like playing 2 base zerg vs 1 base protoss.
The point is a protoss player can build 1-2 pylons and 1-2 cannons to delay your expansion for a good 2+ minutes, while they take theirs and keep probing. I'm not suggesting gaulzi style all-in cannon rushes, I simply am referring to stuff like a 3 pylon block or some cannons behind the natural mineral line.
Not a huge fan of cheese but this guy definitely deserves some credit, he sure as hell knows his maps and placements VERY well. The game against ogsvines really shows that he knows what he's doing and there's a huge difference between a plat league cannon rusher and this guy; he truely is good at what he does. On the same point, if you know exactly what someone is doing and still lose, he's either outplaying you or something is imbalanced. I do think antiga is a ridiculously good map for cannon rushing.
Considering how buff assimilators are, I can't help but to think that gas steals are suppose to be important for... something.
The worst part about cannon rushing is that you have to pull 4 workers per warping pylon or cannon to take it down, and the toss gets a 75% mineral return for a cancel where as you get nothing for the mining time lost which is quite considerably. I was cannon rushed just yesterday for the first time in ages, and I had to lift and relocate as well, the only reason I won that game was that I was able to run 3 hellions by his 2 cannons in his main and destroy his probe line with some very red hellions.
I feel this can be abused greatly if you´re on a 4 player map and you didnt scout the toss before he scouted you and he starts to line up pylons in your base, you have to pull workers and he might not even have a forge - he could simply do it for the cancel vs lost mining time.
On May 02 2012 10:51 oOOoOphidian wrote: The point is a protoss player can build 1-2 pylons and 1-2 cannons to delay your expansion for a good 2+ minutes, while they take theirs and keep probing. I'm not suggesting gaulzi style all-in cannon rushes, I simply am referring to stuff like a 3 pylon block or some cannons behind the natural mineral line.
Oh. Those. They're very different from the ones we're talking about though. I don't disagree that it's really effective, but it's not as game-ending as having cannons in your main. There's suboptimal alternatives to them, although the protoss player should be well prepared for these.
For those maps where cannon rush is really strong, wont habitually placing your 2nd or 3rd buildings behind the minerals or in the "optimal pylon spots" give you some advantage to defend cannon rushes?
I mean, it seems to me, as one who has dabbled in cannon rushing before, that it's a game of building placement. If there is something blocking the optimal place to put your first pylon the cannon rush becomes much harder to execute.
If the cannon rusher has done an analysis of the map where the most optimal pylon placement is, a cannon rush defender should do so as well.
The same way, ramp blocking was perfected against early pools, maybe cannon rush blocking might have a "standard" building placement strategy.
Another thing is to put the first 8 workers into 2 cannon rush defend hotkeys with 4 probes each. I will start doing this every PvP now because of this thread.
As for Blizzard, you know how minerals/gas can't be placed too near CCs, Nexi and Hatches? Maybe they should start putting in a minimum distance for minerals/gas against cliffs and ramps.
This just seems to be the "MC-effect". The MC-effect is when some guy shows up with a strategy that no one is familiar with (and thus don't know how to counter) and so the guy seems completely invincible, until people realize he's not and figure out his new strategy. Think about it. How many pro-level cannon rushers have you seen? Probably just him. No one has had any reason to figure out a way to beat a pro-level cannon rusher, and so no way exists to beat him yet. I do agree that some maps need to be fixed, though. That Antiga trick was definitely, as Day9 put it, bullshit.
On May 02 2012 11:56 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: This just seems to be the "MC-effect". The MC-effect is when some guy shows up with a strategy that no one is familiar with (and thus don't know how to counter) and so the guy seems completely invincible, until people realize he's not and figure out his new strategy. Think about it. How many pro-level cannon rushers have you seen? Probably just him. No one has had any reason to figure out a way to beat a pro-level cannon rusher, and so no way exists to beat him yet. I do agree that some maps need to be fixed, though. That Antiga trick was definitely, as Day9 put it, bullshit.
taking that particular gas yourself first or simply having a worker on hold next to it (trick that makes it impossible for another player to take it) would shut down that "bs" antiga trick. Queen pops, kills cannon pylon on low ground - you´re ahead.
On May 02 2012 11:56 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: This just seems to be the "MC-effect". The MC-effect is when some guy shows up with a strategy that no one is familiar with (and thus don't know how to counter) and so the guy seems completely invincible, until people realize he's not and figure out his new strategy. Think about it. How many pro-level cannon rushers have you seen? Probably just him. No one has had any reason to figure out a way to beat a pro-level cannon rusher, and so no way exists to beat him yet. I do agree that some maps need to be fixed, though. That Antiga trick was definitely, as Day9 put it, bullshit.
taking that particular gas yourself first or simply having a worker on hold next to it (trick that makes it impossible for another player to take it) would shut down that "bs" antiga trick. Queen pops, kills cannon pylon on low ground - you´re ahead.
This. The only reason this guy wins is because he's playing a lot of different players. As players encounter this more they will learn the 3 or 4 things they MUST do to stop it working on any particular map. This has no validity at the pro level because it 'may' win a few games when no one knows who you are and what to expect, once they know you it's a very different situation.
Honestly I think there should be some sort of system put in place by blizzard to give greater rewards to player who play longers games (win or lose). Not because 'cheese' games are less valid, or 'real players play macro' but simply because a cheese player can play 10 games in the time a mech player can play one. This means is you care about your ladder rank or want to improve your league then you should try and end every game as soon as possible.
Well first of all the core question of the op was : "is it possible to hold a very well executed canon rush ?"
The answer is obviously yes as some people here have managed to hold it. Moreover if you look at all the games i feel like players don't take the first pylon seriously or think they will manage the rush and don't imediately pull 4 or 5 workers to kill it. I am only a noob plat and i don't have anything to teach to those really good players but i feel it is a mistake because if they immediately pull those workers they will destroy the pylon and force the opponent to build a new one on high ground. You lose mining time but he lose minerals to build another pylon so you don't take too much handicap.
Concerning the debate of cheese and the possibility that this start is imbalanced ?
I never understand why people say that cheese, all-in ... are bad and that only macro game count and have a legitimacy. The strat he used require some timings, some tricks (where i can wall off, how can i gain vision of highground ...) and has not to be blame. A lot of strat can be used in SC2 and you can use this wide range to win. Boxer did 3 bunker rush gainst yellow in a semi final
i doubt this guy can be called a noob, a cheeser or anything else. He is not bad at all but used mindgame to take an advantage over his opponent.
Finaly even if this strat is very powerfull in ladder cause he master it very well and people are surprised by this rush, is it a real problem for you guys to see this guy go to GM ? I mean the ladder are not the final goal of a SC2 player because if
1° you are a non professional your objective is to have fun and try to improve your gameplay cause the more you are good the more you can enjoy the game imho (you are able to play different strat to do nice moves and strats ...), of course if you improve you will up in the ladder but is a consequence of your objective not your objective.
2° you are a professional player you don't care at all of ladder, your main objective is tournament and in them no chance that you can have success with only this strat, it is a very usefull strat if you master it and have the "balls" to do it against very good players because it can help you to take one map of a BO3 but if you are unable to do another strat people will know it and just counter you as hell.
I will end by telling to people who tend to blame this strat (i don't criticize you, it is your opinion and i respect it, i just try to defend another point of view) that you totaly fall into the "game" of the master of canon rush (gaunzi, i don't remember his name sry about that) cause i am pretty sure that if he goes on this topic he will laugh a lot more than Day9 even if it seems difficult cause the laugh of Day9 is epic ^_^
On May 02 2012 11:02 yoona2012 wrote: The worst part about cannon rushing is that you have to pull 4 workers per warping pylon or cannon to take it down, and the toss gets a 75% mineral return for a cancel where as you get nothing for the mining time lost which is quite considerably.
Kinda like 1rax FE with Bunker pressure vs. Z? Not a Z whiner here, I play T in fact, so just saying it goes both ways, maybe not in the same matchup but still (although there are some perfectly fine Bunker pressure > Macro game builds in TvP as well).
I was wondering why I was getting cannon rushed so often today in PvP...played like 6 PvPs today, 4 were cannon rushes lol. Definitely need to build pylon and gateway behind the mineral line on maps like daybreak, getting walled out as they build cannons behind your probe line is so annoying. I've been skipping the first zealot a lot in PvP lately, but its really useful to have against cannon rushes.
EPT
Not a Z whiner here, I play T in fact, so just saying it goes both ways, maybe not in the same matchup but still (although there are some perfectly fine Bunker pressure > Macro game builds in TvP as well).
