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On May 07 2012 22:31 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 21:48 Rannasha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:19 Kukaracha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:07 Heh_ wrote:On May 07 2012 20:39 SEA KarMa wrote:
yeah though i think the only reason people are angry is because his skill is evidently much lower, except it yields much better results that he should get. It yields better results because he exploits a flawed mentality that people play with. As you can see from this thread, there are tons of people who aim straight for the lategame, and dismiss all kinds of early game tactics as dishonorable cheese. They won't practice to defeat these "cheese" builds because they'e far too superior to do so. So they lose because they react poorly to the cannon rush, or don't react at all. Heck, the GSL showcases a series of elaborate cheeses; MVP cheesed Naniwa out of the GSL, and look what a shitstorm it kicked up. To put it simply, a win is a win. There is no such thing as a "better" or "terrible" win. In the end, such cheesers are simply exploiting the metagame and the element of surprise. That's not skill, you don't have to be mad to see that. Cannon rushes have been there since the early beta. They occur in bronze, they occur in GM and in any league in between. I don't see why they would be exploiting the metagame or the element of surprise. Yeah, they don't happen that often, but everyone should've had to deal with it a couple of times at least by now to have some ideas on how to handle it. 2 pylon walls in the mineral line and other very specific shenanigans (like Antiga, for example), can only be dealt with if you see it coming. And on 4-player maps, even an early scout will probably not scout it in time. Even if they did, how can they react against a very precise strike if they only have "an idea" on how to stop it? You can always retort that patrolling one worker at the bottom of the ramp and one behind the mineral line should be standard, but this implies the loss of 2 workers which is a big hit against, say, a Nexus first. As an example, I never play Toss, so it's safe to say that I have no skill with this race. And yet I can take games off high diamond players by cannon rushing. Element of surprise, basic knowledge of Protoss mechanics isn't even required.
The only real thing to worry about is cannon rushing on Daybreak. Cannon rushing on that map is broken, I agree. On Antiga, getting cannoned on the low ground is not the end of the world; there's still ways to react to it without losing outright. Somehow a lot of people think that cannon rushing (even failed ones) put the rusher in a superior economic state. That is not true; he will have to cut a ton of probes to do that (usually stopping at 10-13) and his tech is massively delayed. If the rush is stopped before massive damage is dealt, you will be ahead. This does not include the 3 pylon block in PvZ. If that occurs, that's why you go pool first. It's not the end of the world either.
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On May 07 2012 01:12 LaM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:24 Zarahtra wrote:On May 02 2012 08:18 Heh_ wrote:
I admit, that was fucking hilarious. When I'm sick of playing "standard', I'm gonna do that.
About the "I don't wanna build a fucking extractor" thing: If you're dead set on going about your build without responding to your opponent, then you deserve to lose. Do you go 3 hatch against a 4 gate? Do you go 3 OC against a 6 pool? You don't? Then why not just build a fucking extractor to deny the cannon rush? The main thing is though that sure you can build that gas when you see him coming, but what if someone else does do it too? Will you need to make a list of all the players that cannon rush, so you can be ready to place that gas? I mean the gas timing doesn't really seem to need to be that spot on, with 900 hp, they can survive quite a beating, until those cannons finish on the lowground. In any case, it kind seems to be a map issue to me, just make maps with 5 hex behind the mineral lines and mineral line not so close to low ground? You can just put a drone behind the gas right against it so they can't take it. If they go for it just take it yourself.
No you cant there is an exploit , if you build the gas out of sight it will push any drone on hold there 
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On May 07 2012 23:22 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:31 Kukaracha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:48 Rannasha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:19 Kukaracha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:07 Heh_ wrote:On May 07 2012 20:39 SEA KarMa wrote:
yeah though i think the only reason people are angry is because his skill is evidently much lower, except it yields much better results that he should get. It yields better results because he exploits a flawed mentality that people play with. As you can see from this thread, there are tons of people who aim straight for the lategame, and dismiss all kinds of early game tactics as dishonorable cheese. They won't practice to defeat these "cheese" builds because they'e far too superior to do so. So they lose because they react poorly to the cannon rush, or don't react at all. Heck, the GSL showcases a series of elaborate cheeses; MVP cheesed Naniwa out of the GSL, and look what a shitstorm it kicked up. To put it simply, a win is a win. There is no such thing as a "better" or "terrible" win. In the end, such cheesers are simply exploiting the metagame and the element of surprise. That's not skill, you don't have to be mad to see that. Cannon rushes have been there since the early beta. They occur in bronze, they occur in GM and in any league in between. I don't see why they would be exploiting the metagame or the element of surprise. Yeah, they don't happen that often, but everyone should've had to deal with it a couple of times at least by now to have some ideas on how to handle it. 2 pylon walls in the mineral line and other very specific shenanigans (like Antiga, for example), can only be dealt with if you see it coming. And on 4-player maps, even an early scout will probably not scout it in time. Even if they did, how can they react against a very precise strike if they only have "an idea" on how to stop it? You can always retort that patrolling one worker at the bottom of the ramp and one behind the mineral line should be standard, but this implies the loss of 2 workers which is a big hit against, say, a Nexus first. As an example, I never play Toss, so it's safe to say that I have no skill with this race. And yet I can take games off high diamond players by cannon rushing. Element of surprise, basic knowledge of Protoss mechanics isn't even required. The only real thing to worry about is cannon rushing on Daybreak. Cannon rushing on that map is broken, I agree. On Antiga, getting cannoned on the low ground is not the end of the world; there's still ways to react to it without losing outright. Somehow a lot of people think that cannon rushing (even failed ones) put the rusher in a superior economic state. That is not true; he will have to cut a ton of probes to do that (usually stopping at 10-13) and his tech is massively delayed. If the rush is stopped before massive damage is dealt, you will be ahead. This does not include the 3 pylon block in PvZ. If that occurs, that's why you go pool first. It's not the end of the world either.
You don't need to cut that many probes, one gate (or an assimilator) 2 pylons and 2 cannons is enough to stop all mining. You can simply follow with a 4Gate or FFE knowing that you've delayed your opponent's tech.
Of course, it's all-inish in wood league, but above Plat you can semi-fail a cannon rush and still be in the game.
Not saying that it's imbalanced or broken, Gaulzi can never beat any high Masters, but his mechanics are Diamond at best. Back to my example of me beating high Diamonds even tough I don't even play Protoss : it's a cheap no-skill strat which can probably mastered in a couple of days.
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On May 07 2012 23:22 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:31 Kukaracha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:48 Rannasha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:19 Kukaracha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:07 Heh_ wrote:On May 07 2012 20:39 SEA KarMa wrote:
yeah though i think the only reason people are angry is because his skill is evidently much lower, except it yields much better results that he should get. It yields better results because he exploits a flawed mentality that people play with. As you can see from this thread, there are tons of people who aim straight for the lategame, and dismiss all kinds of early game tactics as dishonorable cheese. They won't practice to defeat these "cheese" builds because they'e far too superior to do so. So they lose because they react poorly to the cannon rush, or don't react at all. Heck, the GSL showcases a series of elaborate cheeses; MVP cheesed Naniwa out of the GSL, and look what a shitstorm it kicked up. To put it simply, a win is a win. There is no such thing as a "better" or "terrible" win. In the end, such cheesers are simply exploiting the metagame and the element of surprise. That's not skill, you don't have to be mad to see that. Cannon rushes have been there since the early beta. They occur in bronze, they occur in GM and in any league in between. I don't see why they would be exploiting the metagame or the element of surprise. Yeah, they don't happen that often, but everyone should've had to deal with it a couple of times at least by now to have some ideas on how to handle it. 2 pylon walls in the mineral line and other very specific shenanigans (like Antiga, for example), can only be dealt with if you see it coming. And on 4-player maps, even an early scout will probably not scout it in time. Even if they did, how can they react against a very precise strike if they only have "an idea" on how to stop it? You can always retort that patrolling one worker at the bottom of the ramp and one behind the mineral line should be standard, but this implies the loss of 2 workers which is a big hit against, say, a Nexus first. As an example, I never play Toss, so it's safe to say that I have no skill with this race. And yet I can take games off high diamond players by cannon rushing. Element of surprise, basic knowledge of Protoss mechanics isn't even required. The only real thing to worry about is cannon rushing on Daybreak. Cannon rushing on that map is broken, I agree. On Antiga, getting cannoned on the low ground is not the end of the world; there's still ways to react to it without losing outright. Somehow a lot of people think that cannon rushing (even failed ones) put the rusher in a superior economic state. That is not true; he will have to cut a ton of probes to do that (usually stopping at 10-13) and his tech is massively delayed. If the rush is stopped before massive damage is dealt, you will be ahead. This does not include the 3 pylon block in PvZ. If that occurs, that's why you go pool first. It's not the end of the world either.
going pool first doesn't stop the three pylon block, lings get out nowhere near in time. Using a drone to stop them building the pylons in the first place is the only way to stop it. Also i think generally unless the protoss really screws up the zerg shouldn't be able to win if they do manage to wall them in. The zerg usually has to go for some crazy all in or do a hidden expo with a scouting drone or something, both of these should be easy for the protoss to beat if he is playing carefully
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On May 08 2012 00:26 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 23:22 Heh_ wrote:On May 07 2012 22:31 Kukaracha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:48 Rannasha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:19 Kukaracha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:07 Heh_ wrote:On May 07 2012 20:39 SEA KarMa wrote:
yeah though i think the only reason people are angry is because his skill is evidently much lower, except it yields much better results that he should get. It yields better results because he exploits a flawed mentality that people play with. As you can see from this thread, there are tons of people who aim straight for the lategame, and dismiss all kinds of early game tactics as dishonorable cheese. They won't practice to defeat these "cheese" builds because they'e far too superior to do so. So they lose because they react poorly to the cannon rush, or don't react at all. Heck, the GSL showcases a series of elaborate cheeses; MVP cheesed Naniwa out of the GSL, and look what a shitstorm it kicked up. To put it simply, a win is a win. There is no such thing as a "better" or "terrible" win. In the end, such cheesers are simply exploiting the metagame and the element of surprise. That's not skill, you don't have to be mad to see that. Cannon rushes have been there since the early beta. They occur in bronze, they occur in GM and in any league in between. I don't see why they would be exploiting the metagame or the element of surprise. Yeah, they don't happen that often, but everyone should've had to deal with it a couple of times at least by now to have some ideas on how to handle it. 2 pylon walls in the mineral line and other very specific shenanigans (like Antiga, for example), can only be dealt with if you see it coming. And on 4-player maps, even an early scout will probably not scout it in time. Even if they did, how can they react against a very precise strike if they only have "an idea" on how to stop it? You can always retort that patrolling one worker at the bottom of the ramp and one behind the mineral line should be standard, but this implies the loss of 2 workers which is a big hit against, say, a Nexus first. As an example, I never play Toss, so it's safe to say that I have no skill with this race. And yet I can take games off high diamond players by cannon rushing. Element of surprise, basic knowledge of Protoss mechanics isn't even required. The only real thing to worry about is cannon rushing on Daybreak. Cannon rushing on that map is broken, I agree. On Antiga, getting cannoned on the low ground is not the end of the world; there's still ways to react to it without losing outright. Somehow a lot of people think that cannon rushing (even failed ones) put the rusher in a superior economic state. That is not true; he will have to cut a ton of probes to do that (usually stopping at 10-13) and his tech is massively delayed. If the rush is stopped before massive damage is dealt, you will be ahead. This does not include the 3 pylon block in PvZ. If that occurs, that's why you go pool first. It's not the end of the world either. You don't need to cut that many probes, one gate (or an assimilator) 2 pylons and 2 cannons is enough to stop all mining. You can simply follow with a 4Gate or FFE knowing that you've delayed your opponent's tech. Of course, it's all-inish in wood league, but above Plat you can semi-fail a cannon rush and still be in the game. Not saying that it's imbalanced or broken, Gaulzi can never beat any high Masters, but his mechanics are Diamond at best. Back to my example of me beating high Diamonds even tough I don't even play Protoss : it's a cheap no-skill strat which can probably mastered in a couple of days.
Well, if you don't take a significant probe cut, the cannon rush would be delayed and this allows additional time for the defender to prepare for it. It depends on how much damage you take when the cannon rush starts. If mining is delayed but you didn't cut many workers, you're probably ahead. If you lost 5-6 workers in the process, then it's probably fairly equal.
On May 08 2012 00:37 Twelve12 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 23:22 Heh_ wrote:On May 07 2012 22:31 Kukaracha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:48 Rannasha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:19 Kukaracha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:07 Heh_ wrote:On May 07 2012 20:39 SEA KarMa wrote:
yeah though i think the only reason people are angry is because his skill is evidently much lower, except it yields much better results that he should get. It yields better results because he exploits a flawed mentality that people play with. As you can see from this thread, there are tons of people who aim straight for the lategame, and dismiss all kinds of early game tactics as dishonorable cheese. They won't practice to defeat these "cheese" builds because they'e far too superior to do so. So they lose because they react poorly to the cannon rush, or don't react at all. Heck, the GSL showcases a series of elaborate cheeses; MVP cheesed Naniwa out of the GSL, and look what a shitstorm it kicked up. To put it simply, a win is a win. There is no such thing as a "better" or "terrible" win. In the end, such cheesers are simply exploiting the metagame and the element of surprise. That's not skill, you don't have to be mad to see that. Cannon rushes have been there since the early beta. They occur in bronze, they occur in GM and in any league in between. I don't see why they would be exploiting the metagame or the element of surprise. Yeah, they don't happen that often, but everyone should've had to deal with it a couple of times at least by now to have some ideas on how to handle it. 2 pylon walls in the mineral line and other very specific shenanigans (like Antiga, for example), can only be dealt with if you see it coming. And on 4-player maps, even an early scout will probably not scout it in time. Even if they did, how can they react against a very precise strike if they only have "an idea" on how to stop it? You can always retort that patrolling one worker at the bottom of the ramp and one behind the mineral line should be standard, but this implies the loss of 2 workers which is a big hit against, say, a Nexus first. As an example, I never play Toss, so it's safe to say that I have no skill with this race. And yet I can take games off high diamond players by cannon rushing. Element of surprise, basic knowledge of Protoss mechanics isn't even required. The only real thing to worry about is cannon rushing on Daybreak. Cannon rushing on that map is broken, I agree. On Antiga, getting cannoned on the low ground is not the end of the world; there's still ways to react to it without losing outright. Somehow a lot of people think that cannon rushing (even failed ones) put the rusher in a superior economic state. That is not true; he will have to cut a ton of probes to do that (usually stopping at 10-13) and his tech is massively delayed. If the rush is stopped before massive damage is dealt, you will be ahead. This does not include the 3 pylon block in PvZ. If that occurs, that's why you go pool first. It's not the end of the world either. going pool first doesn't stop the three pylon block, lings get out nowhere near in time. Using a drone to stop them building the pylons in the first place is the only way to stop it. Also i think generally unless the protoss really screws up the zerg shouldn't be able to win if they do manage to wall them in. The zerg usually has to go for some crazy all in or do a hidden expo with a scouting drone or something, both of these should be easy for the protoss to beat if he is playing carefully
Pool first doesn't stop the 3 pylon block, but it stops you from being utterly screwed over by it. If the 3 pylon block would be such an autowin, then protoss players would just blindly do it every game. It sets the zerg player behind, but not in an unwinnable position.
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On May 08 2012 01:12 Heh_ wrote:
Well, if you don't take a significant probe cut, the cannon rush would be delayed and this allows additional time for the defender to prepare for it. It depends on how much damage you take when the cannon rush starts. If mining is delayed but you didn't cut many workers, you're probably ahead. If you lost 5-6 workers in the process, then it's probably fairly equal.
It's not, because the Protoss can very well expand and/or chrono probes out in no time depending on the situation(since cannon rushing requires no chrono use).
You also always assume that the defender succeeds, wich in turn assumes that you've scouted it in time. And it's not like the Toss is wasting money because, well, you can simply cancel pylons and cannos who take too much damage.
Again, on some maps everything you need to stop all mining is two pylons and two cannons (and maybe a tougher building for vision, but that's all it requires for it to basically be GG.
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If the 3 pylon block would be such an autowin, then protoss players would just blindly do it every game. It sets the zerg player behind, but not in an unwinnable position.
There's no such thing as an unwinnable situation in SC2 then, but there are situation where you're 90% guaranteed to lose
Also, i think the main reason for 3pylons block being so underused on ladder is the fact it's impossible in tournament map, so a lot of player (not only progamer) just dont think of it as a viable strat.
Also Stephano get 3pylon blocked all the time by master MMR player, and he just cant win.
It's pretty sad that people laddering are the only one having to suffer this, when every single tournament map, blizzard map included, have lowered supply depot.
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Its possible to 3 pylon block on taldarim and still nearly noone does it at the moment.
Cannon Rushing is just so strong because nearly noone is trained in defending it.
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China6331 Posts
With pylons don't provide high ground power anymore in HotS, I don't see cannon rushing being more effective.
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I've faced this twice on the ladder now (low Masters), and both times I've managed to beat it with Terran. Basically I don't mind if the first few Cannons go up; you just have to use your initial Marines to make sure the advancing Cannons don't reach your CC. Maybe my opponent didn't do it correctly, but here is a replay nonetheless. http://drop.sc/174794
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I don't understand the point of this thread. There are a lot of players who are only at a high MMR because they do an allin every game, and most of them are really easy to do and really hard to stop and requires the defender to play better; that's what an allin is. Of course there are GM cannon rushers, there are GM 6 poolers too. Personally I just leave the game if someone does something like that, because win or lose, the game is retarded and I don't care about my ladder points.
That being said, there are some really bullshit wallins you can do on certain maps with cannons/bunkers, and I think that is a legit concern and should be looked at.
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On May 08 2012 12:34 Bildo wrote:Made me laugh.
The future of PvP ?
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On May 08 2012 02:00 gaymon wrote:
Its possible to 3 pylon block on taldarim and still nearly noone does it at the moment.
Cannon Rushing is just so strong because nearly noone is trained in defending it.
Well 3 pylon blocking is beatable by drone drilling(linkie), which is I think the biggest reason people don't use it a lot.
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On May 08 2012 17:03 HaXXspetten wrote:The future of PvP ?
Nah just Metalopolis
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On May 08 2012 17:11 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 02:00 gaymon wrote:
Its possible to 3 pylon block on taldarim and still nearly noone does it at the moment.
Cannon Rushing is just so strong because nearly noone is trained in defending it. Well 3 pylon blocking is beatable by drone drilling( linkie), which is I think the biggest reason people don't use it a lot.
Have you just never read my zvp guide or the million posts I've made on this subject?
-Drone drilling doesn't work on most spawns and most maps
-Even if you do drone drill, Toss can add gateway+pylon. You cannot drone drill the gate+pylon on most spawns and maps
-Even if you can drone drill the subsequent wall-in, Toss is ahead because you werent' mining for a minute with 90% of your workers, while he's mining with all of his
-Drone drilling doesn't work on the 2nd wall-in though, because his cannon will be up by the time you drone drill
3 pylon blocking isn't done a lot because people patrol a drone. Every Toss will throw down 3 pylon block if they see Z isn't drone patrolling on a blizzard map.
Unless you go 10 pool or earlier, 11+ pool will never get lings out in time to stop a 3 pylon block cannon rush. You have to always patrol a drone. Drone drilling doesn't work most of the time, and when it does, it doesn't matter, it puts you behind Toss who was mining the whole time, and Toss just reinforces wall and then cannon is online and your drones die or you stuck on 1 base (not that you could bust out even if you drilled perfectly against a reinforce wall).
With pylons don't provide high ground power anymore in HotS, I don't see cannon rushing being more effective.
What? I went to blizzcon, I don't recall hearing anything about this ever :X
edit: awesome.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278806
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On May 08 2012 17:11 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 02:00 gaymon wrote:
Its possible to 3 pylon block on taldarim and still nearly noone does it at the moment.
Cannon Rushing is just so strong because nearly noone is trained in defending it. Well 3 pylon blocking is beatable by drone drilling( linkie), which is I think the biggest reason people don't use it a lot.
They patched the drone drill shortly after it came into the public eye. It no longer works, because apparently it's unfair for zergs to have a way to stop a pylon walloff. It's ok, though, it's not like if that pylon wall gets down they win the game or anything.
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Speak of the devil, I got cannon rushed the night I saw this thread. Luckily Protoss was twice as bs in BW, and managed to easily fend it off by lifting rax and making marauders with 1 marine in a bunker to stop close pylons. Then I made a proxy rax with my scouting scv in his main and bunker rushed his mineral line.
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anyone who thinks strats like these are unstoppable is clueless(sorry to be so negative)
i only really watched the video vs idra but u can stop the cannon rush in so many ways
1. if this becomes a common enough strat, zerg can always send a drone to rally the area where the pylon/cannon needs to be placed down which is around 2:15....normally 2:30 for the 3 pylon wall off
2. idra coulda taken his assimulator the instant the pylons went down
3. im not too sure but i believe u can just attack the 2 pylons and kill them if u pull drones immediately(this works for the 3 pylon trick...im not sure about the angles for the 2 pylon trick)
4. idra coulda spined earlier and delay vision until its up or somethign of that sort
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EPT
