[Q] Can cannon rushing really be perfected?

On May 02 2012 07:07 Woobly wrote:
On Antiga Ship yard, couldn't you take your gas next to your ramp to deny vision and just make sure no probes give vision on the ramp? Perhapse go for a maruader expand like DApollo showed in his Terran tutorials (if you're terran)?

On May 02 2012 05:08 Zodiak wrote:
The assimilator providing free vision on the high ground vs idra was entertaining.

For balancing maps in tournament maps, gas placement relative to the ramp should be taken into account

However he beat you twice. I believe this would be more or less equal to him berating you for being worse than him at cannon rushing.

On May 02 2012 07:07 Woobly wrote:
On Antiga Ship yard, couldn't you take your gas next to your ramp to deny vision and just make sure no probes give vision on the ramp? Perhapse go for a maruader expand like DApollo showed in his Terran tutorials (if you're terran)?

On May 02 2012 07:24 reikai wrote:


why should i have to take a gas if i want to do 1 rax expo? why should his strategy dictate what i have to play?

another question is why do protoss gas geysers have double the health of the other race's geysers?

On May 02 2012 05:20 Legion710 wrote:
UH OH CALL THE CHEESE POLICE.


In all seriousness, i don't understand how you could effectively cannon a zerg and win the game with it?

On May 02 2012 07:25 iAmJeffReY wrote:

well it's like that for anything. I can gasless FE, but if you 4 gate me, or bane bust, or roach bane, you dictate what I do. Aggressive builds dictate what the enemy has to do to react, and win.

I do wonder, as well, why their gas is 450/450 and doesn't require an SCV to sit and build, or to lose a drone..

On May 02 2012 06:53 TheCasualGamer wrote:


You could also cannon their natural and third, and if you have good enough skill to mass up units fast then you will beat them.

On May 02 2012 08:18 Heh_ wrote:
I admit, that was fucking hilarious. When I'm sick of playing "standard', I'm gonna do that.

About the "I don't wanna build a fucking extractor" thing: If you're dead set on going about your build without responding to your opponent, then you deserve to lose. Do you go 3 hatch against a 4 gate? Do you go 3 OC against a 6 pool? You don't? Then why not just build a fucking extractor to deny the cannon rush?

On May 02 2012 08:24 Zarahtra wrote:

The main thing is though that sure you can build that gas when you see him coming, but what if someone else does do it too? Will you need to make a list of all the players that cannon rush, so you can be ready to place that gas? I mean the gas timing doesn't really seem to need to be that spot on, with 900 hp, they can survive quite a beating, until those cannons finish on the lowground.

In any case, it kind seems to be a map issue to me, just make maps with 5 hex behind the mineral lines and mineral line not so close to low ground?

On May 02 2012 08:24 Zarahtra wrote:

The main thing is though that sure you can build that gas when you see him coming, but what if someone else does do it too? Will you need to make a list of all the players that cannon rush, so you can be ready to place that gas? I mean the gas timing doesn't really seem to need to be that spot on, with 900 hp, they can survive quite a beating, until those cannons finish on the lowground.

In any case, it kind seems to be a map issue to me, just make maps with 5 hex behind the mineral lines and mineral line not so close to low ground?

On May 02 2012 08:30 Heh_ wrote:

Your first sentence doesn't make much sense. Are you trying to say that you should only build the extractor against that single cannon rusher? No, I meant doing it for every single time you encounter it. If such a simple move stops a cannon rush dead in its tracks, then I'll do it whenever I see a similar cannon rush.

On May 02 2012 08:30 Heh_ wrote:

Your first sentence doesn't make much sense. Are you trying to say that you should only build the extractor against that single cannon rusher? No, I meant doing it for every single time you encounter it. If such a simple move stops a cannon rush dead in its tracks, then I'll do it whenever I see a similar cannon rush.

On May 02 2012 07:07 Woobly wrote:


I do wonder, as well, why their gas is 450/450 and doesn't require an SCV to sit and build, or to lose a drone..

On May 02 2012 08:39 Heh_ wrote:-----snip.

On May 02 2012 08:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:

you act like zerg can magically expand just because the cannons can't hit the main mineral line and that the cannon rusher can't just build pylons and cannons to the side of the hatch to protect the low ground cannons.

On May 02 2012 08:59 Heh_ wrote:

What? Before you post, please read your own sentences. I have no idea what the heck you just said.

On May 02 2012 09:08 oOOoOphidian wrote:

you are acting as if stopping a protoss player from building a gas in your main is a hard counter to a cannon rush

On May 02 2012 09:16 Heh_ wrote:

It is. If he cannot get a vision of the high ground, the low ground cannons are stopped dead in its tracks. You can get a spine out of range of the cannon, to stab at any probes that try to provide said vision. At that point, you have more workers than him and haven't wasted 350+ minerals. Once the probe(s) are gone, move the spine closer to attack the cannon. The queen can do that too. Then expand, or roach allin.

Edit: Obviously only on maps where the only place to put a structure is the geyser. Aka, antiga (or whatever else map).

On May 02 2012 09:20 Picklebread wrote:

OOOOO but what if he makes a pylon

On May 02 2012 09:08 oOOoOphidian wrote:

you are acting as if stopping a protoss player from building a gas in your main is a hard counter to a cannon rush

On May 02 2012 09:16 Heh_ wrote:

It is. If he cannot get a vision of the high ground, the low ground cannons are stopped dead in its tracks. You can get a spine out of range of the cannon, to stab at any probes that try to provide said vision. At that point, you have more workers than him and haven't wasted 350+ minerals. Once the probe(s) are gone, move the spine closer to attack the cannon. The queen can do that too. Then expand, or roach allin.

Edit: Obviously only on maps where the only place to put a structure is the geyser. Aka, antiga (or whatever else map).

On May 02 2012 11:56 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
This just seems to be the "MC-effect". The MC-effect is when some guy shows up with a strategy that no one is familiar with (and thus don't know how to counter) and so the guy seems completely invincible, until people realize he's not and figure out his new strategy.
Think about it. How many pro-level cannon rushers have you seen? Probably just him. No one has had any reason to figure out a way to beat a pro-level cannon rusher, and so no way exists to beat him yet.
I do agree that some maps need to be fixed, though. That Antiga trick was definitely, as Day9 put it, bullshit.

On May 02 2012 04:51 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I've played him so many fucking times. Even on KR. He is a joke, and it's so sad how this works. I've beaten him twice, lost to him twice. Both losses on antiga shipyard. Some maps are just too abusive for cannon rushes.

The best part is after this fails, his unit control is down right awful. I believe, and after playing him, he was a plat player before, and his mechanics are lack luster.

This kind of thing makes me wish there was a way to nerf cannon rushes, as they're ridiculous on so many maps.

On May 02 2012 05:21 denzelz wrote:


Totally agree with this. Early cannons are frustrating to play against, and stupid to watch from professional players. It is one of the worst things about SC2.

On May 03 2012 02:41 QNdie wrote:
Well, the cannon rush is supposed to work like any other cheese, if unscouted and not reacted to properly, it will kill you. As you see in all of Gaulzi's games in the daily, the only one which was responded to correctly was the one with Idra playing. This means the cannon rush is broken on Antiga. Nowhere else, on other maps it is the same deal as a 6pool or proxy 11/11 rax.

On May 03 2012 03:04 meadbert wrote:

Idra did not build an extractor at his gas on the edge, therefore he did not react properly.

On May 03 2012 03:06 Flonomenalz wrote:

How could he possibly have known in advance that such a cannon rush was coming? You don't get gas against FFE that early. You want Zergs to blindly build an extractor on their gas at the edge in case of a cannon rush? That's ludicrous.

On May 03 2012 03:06 Flonomenalz wrote:

How could he possibly have known in advance that such a cannon rush was coming? You don't get gas against FFE that early. You want Zergs to blindly build an extractor on their gas at the edge in case of a cannon rush? That's ludicrous.

On May 03 2012 04:06 ][Primarch][ wrote:
So...CombatEx and Deezer are gone but hey Gaulzi comes to rescue, he will make the ladder as disgusting as possible for everyone. Way to go Gaulzi! Herp Fucking Derp

On May 02 2012 07:07 Woobly wrote:
On Antiga Ship yard, couldn't you take your gas next to your ramp to deny vision and just make sure no probes give vision on the ramp? Perhapse go for a maruader expand like DApollo showed in his Terran tutorials (if you're terran)?

On May 03 2012 05:46 Seam wrote:
Wow a lot of whining...


There are plenty of builds that can get one to masters with little macro, most of them cheese. You can bane bust every game, 3raxallin every game, and(I guess not as much these days...) 4 gate every game.

Why the massive hate for cannon rushes? They aren't impossible in the least to stop =\

On May 03 2012 06:13 Charon1979 wrote:


I think mostly because someone with platinum makro can't bane bust, 3raxallin or 4 gate GM level players successful on a regular basis. But he obviously can do a cannonrush

Even ppl who made it to masters/GM with 6pool only are playing at masters level if they play standard. This guy plays on platinum.

The main reason why ppl get so upset about cheeses like this is that most players try to improve their play, ask for help in forums and actually put efford in getting better - while seeing that abusing the map is just enough to get far up the ladder.

If JimmyBronze ask you how to improve would you just tell him: "Pick Protoss, and cannonrush the shit out of the ladder every day. Eventually you get good enough for GM in no time. The other way to improve takes longer and involves learning matchups, scouting and macro... so just cannonrush."

On May 03 2012 06:51 Seam wrote:


Wasn't there a thread for the 3rax where the plat(Diamond?) player was beating pros on a regurlar basis? Like, nearly every game?

3rax is super easy. It takes almost no macro. There's also nearly no 'risk' of a followup, so no need to macro if it fails either.

I don't have as much of a problem with the strategy as I do with Gaulzi's bm though, I don't really get how he can get so upset over what is essentially a coin-flip.

On May 03 2012 06:45 Maxd11 wrote:
It's kinda sad that this nub can beat pros with one simple cheasy and over-powered strategy even when they know it is coming. Maybe someone will win a tournament with nothing but cannon rushes and blizzard will (finally) realize how messed up this is.
I did enjoy watching Idra get owned however.

On May 03 2012 04:27 Jaaaaasper wrote:


To be fair, from what i have seen of him, he doesn't bm or stream cheat, which was what made combat ez and deezer so despicable. If he does do that as well then yes he is just as bad, if not he is just someone who has chosen to be good at one (cheesy) thing, as opposed to trying to be good at the game over all.

On May 03 2012 06:51 Seam wrote:


Wasn't there a thread for the 3rax where the plat(Diamond?) player was beating pros on a regurlar basis? Like, nearly every game?

3rax is super easy. It takes almost no macro. There's also nearly no 'risk' of a followup, so no need to macro if it fails either.

I don't have as much of a problem with the strategy as I do with Gaulzi's bm though, I don't really get how he can get so upset over what is essentially a coin-flip.

On May 02 2012 05:25 iAmJeffReY wrote:

That's what he did against me twice on antiga. Low ground cannon and pylon, take assim. What do you kill? If you pull off scvs, he's going to cancel cannons as they die, and can even block you out of your own base.

It's just a joke of a strategy that somehow works.


Take the amount of times he's cannon rushed (SO FUCKING MANY. He had like 500 games last season, and already hundreds this season, and is playing on KR, and I'm sure EU) against the amount of times I've been cannon rushed.

Being 2-4 in defending when facing it only 4 times is pretty damn good for never seeing such a lame strategy that often. The bad part is, some protoss fake cannon rush and nexus -> forge -> gate. And, the level of people I play, I expect a ~9 scout to be a nexus first, rarely a cheese like this. There's no way to scout and react, since it hits before you even have marauders.

I faced him twice on KR like last week, and KNEW it was coming, did an 12/12 rax and STILL got beat. Why? Gas steal (what 900 HP for 75 minerals) high ground vision for 3 cannons. No way of picking off anything as once he gets the high ground vision, you're zoned out and can't mine the half of the minerals + he can cannon behind the cover of the other cannons.

On May 03 2012 04:27 Jaaaaasper wrote:


To be fair, from what i have seen of him, he doesn't bm or stream cheat, which was what made combat ez and deezer so despicable. If he does do that as well then yes he is just as bad, if not he is just someone who has chosen to be good at one (cheesy) thing, as opposed to trying to be good at the game over all.

On May 03 2012 08:15 Whitewing wrote:


If you think you're getting cannon rushed, just take the gas geyser on the side with the cannons so he can't do that >_>.

On May 03 2012 06:32 oOOoOphidian wrote:

He has streamed his own play when you can clearly hear the sound of his opponent's stream in the background...

ArcticFox wrote: Z I'm not sure how you ever let them get up in a position where it could actually hurt you, save getting greedy with a hatch before pool.

On May 03 2012 08:55 iAmJeffReY wrote:

Fog of war -> cue up an assim -> take gas even if you hold position.

It's been said multiple times.

Completely theorycraft, and it's so damn annoying.

On May 03 2012 08:43 Meaon wrote:

I'm pretty sure thats just some made up bullshit...

On May 03 2012 09:56 oOOoOphidian wrote:

http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818

first game

same happened when he sniped orb 4 times in a row, he had the stream open

On May 03 2012 09:56 oOOoOphidian wrote:

http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818

first game

same happened when he sniped orb 4 times in a row, he had the stream open

On May 03 2012 11:51 EC-10 wrote:



I tend to lurk the strategy forums and enjoy watching streams of protoss players. To be honest the community seems a bit harsh. Yes, I have watched gaulzi and yes I have seen him BM people when his attack fails. I don't see any validity in the claims of him stream watching or intentionally cheating like this. Not to mention, who would want to face the same person four times in a row cannon rushing every time. If someone lost 4 times to this in a row I would be surprised. As many have said before it is knowing how to fight it that will save you from this strategy. People here only see the wins but many other people have beaten him including Idra the 2 other times they met.

About the BM. Yes I have seen him get upset when he loses. So do many many many other players. I never saw the big deal. Yes in events and matches there is a level of respect and showmanship but this isn't that. Again he doesn't BM every game he loses but I can imagine it getting frustrating streaming for 12 hours+ in a row

Lastly his play seems higher level than plat from my experience. Compared to what I have seen from plat players he seems much better with both macro and micro. I am not suggesting he is some starcraft god but there is a significant amount of decision making and micro within cannon rushing, not to mention the follow-ups in failed attempts.

Anyways, have enjoyed his stream and learned a lot about executing and defending cannoning.
I personally think he should get a IlIlIlIIl account to see how many more wins he gets as an anonymous protoss.

On May 02 2012 16:16 thurim wrote:
Well first of all the core question of the op was : "is it possible to hold a very well executed canon rush ?"

The answer is obviously yes as some people here have managed to hold it.
Moreover if you look at all the games i feel like players don't take the first pylon seriously or think they will manage the rush and don't imediately pull 4 or 5 workers to kill it. I am only a noob plat and i don't have anything to teach to those really good players but i feel it is a mistake because if they immediately pull those workers they will destroy the pylon and force the opponent to build a new one on high ground. You lose mining time but he lose minerals to build another pylon so you don't take too much handicap.

Concerning the debate of cheese and the possibility that this start is imbalanced ?

I never understand why people say that cheese, all-in ... are bad and that only macro game count and have a legitimacy. The strat he used require some timings, some tricks (where i can wall off, how can i gain vision of highground ...) and has not to be blame. A lot of strat can be used in SC2 and you can use this wide range to win. Boxer did 3 bunker rush gainst yellow in a semi final

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYLhOXn5rTw

i doubt this guy can be called a noob, a cheeser or anything else. He is not bad at all but used mindgame to take an advantage over his opponent.

Finaly even if this strat is very powerfull in ladder cause he master it very well and people are surprised by this rush, is it a real problem for you guys to see this guy go to GM ?
I mean the ladder are not the final goal of a SC2 player because if

1° you are a non professional your objective is to have fun and try to improve your gameplay cause the more you are good the more you can enjoy the game imho (you are able to play different strat to do nice moves and strats ...), of course if you improve you will up in the ladder but is a consequence of your objective not your objective.

2° you are a professional player you don't care at all of ladder, your main objective is tournament and in them no chance that you can have success with only this strat, it is a very usefull strat if you master it and have the "balls" to do it against very good players because it can help you to take one map of a BO3 but if you are unable to do another strat people will know it and just counter you as hell.

I will end by telling to people who tend to blame this strat (i don't criticize you, it is your opinion and i respect it, i just try to defend another point of view) that you totaly fall into the "game" of the master of canon rush (gaunzi, i don't remember his name sry about that) cause i am pretty sure that if he goes on this topic he will laugh a lot more than Day9 even if it seems difficult cause the laugh of Day9 is epic ^_^

On May 03 2012 11:51 EC-10 wrote:



I tend to lurk the strategy forums and enjoy watching streams of protoss players. To be honest the community seems a bit harsh. Yes, I have watched gaulzi and yes I have seen him BM people when his attack fails. I don't see any validity in the claims of him stream watching or intentionally cheating like this. Not to mention, who would want to face the same person four times in a row cannon rushing every time. If someone lost 4 times to this in a row I would be surprised. As many have said before it is knowing how to fight it that will save you from this strategy. People here only see the wins but many other people have beaten him including Idra the 2 other times they met.

About the BM. Yes I have seen him get upset when he loses. So do many many many other players. I never saw the big deal. Yes in events and matches there is a level of respect and showmanship but this isn't that. Again he doesn't BM every game he loses but I can imagine it getting frustrating streaming for 12 hours+ in a row

Lastly his play seems higher level than plat from my experience. Compared to what I have seen from plat players he seems much better with both macro and micro. I am not suggesting he is some starcraft god but there is a significant amount of decision making and micro within cannon rushing, not to mention the follow-ups in failed attempts.

Anyways, have enjoyed his stream and learned a lot about executing and defending cannoning.
I personally think he should get a IlIlIlIIl account to see how many more wins he gets as an anonymous protoss.

On May 03 2012 14:31 oZe wrote:
There are only two reasons for playing a game. One of them IS TO WASTE TIME. The other is to gain skill. No matter wich way you look at it. He either succeded in wasting your time or gave you the oppurtunity to learn.

On May 03 2012 22:07 radiantshadow92 wrote:
I have really held it easily as terran even on antiga. Denying the high ground vision is key. Pull everything to kill the assimilator on antiga. Thanks for the easy points cheesers :D

On May 03 2012 22:26 Zarahtra wrote:

Against whom? Gaulzi or just some random guy trying to cannon rush? It costs you 180 minerals+ Show Spoiler + to attack the assimilator at which point I'd assume he could just cancel the assimilator at last second and make pylon(or even possibly gateway) on the highground for vision. Unless you can outdmg the assimilator(as in do more dmg than the construct hp speed), I don't see how attacking the assimilator would be a fix.

On May 03 2012 22:34 Heh_ wrote:

Dude, you're looking at things in a vacuum. You're not the only person that has to make sacrifices. If you would like to quantify lost mining time, think about how the cannon rusher loses minerals for cutting probes, building the pylons and cannons, pulling probes off from mining, cutting into gas production, delaying warp gate tech, delaying all other tech, etc etc etc. If I could trade 180 minerals to WIN THE GAME, sign me up!

On May 03 2012 22:34 Heh_ wrote:

Dude, you're looking at things in a vacuum. You're not the only person that has to make sacrifices. If you would like to quantify lost mining time, think about how the cannon rusher loses minerals for cutting probes, building the pylons and cannons, pulling probes off from mining, cutting into gas production, delaying warp gate tech, delaying all other tech, etc etc etc. If I could trade 180 minerals to WIN THE GAME, sign me up!

On May 03 2012 22:41 Zarahtra wrote:

I'm not at all watching things in a vaccum. The issue is simply that the crawl has already begun, if your 180 mineral investment to kill the assim doesn't stop the toss from getting vision on the highground(as in he can still place a pylon, gw or even 2nd assim) those 180 minerals, or rather 162.25 minerals(since it costs 18.75min to cancel) are a gift and just put your further behind while his cannons are going up and he's already siegeing your mineral line and crawling forward through your ramp.

On May 03 2012 22:41 Zarahtra wrote:

I'm not at all watching things in a vaccum. The issue is simply that the crawl has already begun, if your 180 mineral investment to kill the assim doesn't stop the toss from getting vision on the highground(as in he can still place a pylon, gw or even 2nd assim) those 180 minerals, or rather 162.25 minerals(since it costs 18.75min to cancel) are a gift and just put your further behind while his cannons are going up and he's already siegeing your mineral line and crawling forward through your ramp.

On May 03 2012 22:49 Heh_ wrote:

Okay, I guess there's a ton of misinformation floating around. The assimilator trick is mainly used on antiga against zerg, because you can't build on creep. Keeping an assimilator alive is easier than keeping a probe alive on creep. If you're getting cannon rushed as terran or protoss, you're supposed to completely deny entry to the probe. The assimilator is just a convenient structure to provide vision.

On May 02 2012 07:30 reikai wrote:


i guess what i'm asking is what i'm supposed to do to stop that on antiga. normally i can "infer" a response to any strategy.... but this one doesn't seem fair/have a proper "retard check."

(EX: you 1 rax FE against 4 gate, but scout it. retard check: build your bunkers and win the game later, or don't build them and eat gateway units while he eats your ladder points.. in case i made that term up. i can't be sure.)

On May 02 2012 07:37 Legion710 wrote:



Yeah, it's just I was under the impression that he was winning games only with the cannons

On May 03 2012 22:26 Zarahtra wrote:

Against whom? Gaulzi or just some random guy trying to cannon rush? It costs you 180 minerals+ Show Spoiler + to attack the assimilator at which point I'd assume he could just cancel the assimilator at last second and make pylon(or even possibly gateway) on the highground for vision. Unless you can outdmg the assimilator(as in do more dmg than the construct hp speed), I don't see how attacking the assimilator would be a fix.

On May 04 2012 03:11 MugenXBanksy wrote:
every pvp last night was a cannon rush i wanted to punch a baby into oblivion. i am dissappointed day[9] .

On May 03 2012 06:32 oOOoOphidian wrote:

He has streamed his own play when you can clearly hear the sound of his opponent's stream in the background...