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[Q] Can cannon rushing really be perfected?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 13 14 15 Next All
Videoboysayscube
Profile Joined October 2010
51 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 19:38:12
May 01 2012 18:51 GMT
#1
I'm making this topic in response to day9's daily yesterday and I learned that there was this grandmaster player that got up to those ranks soley by cannon rushing. He litterally has it down to an art form. Even with all the time in the world to think about it, I'm still not sure how one could hold these rushes. Even if there was a way to hold them off, it still requires incredibly more micro on the part of the defender than it does on the rusher. So my question is, how does one hold off these kind of rushes?

In case you didn't see the video, here's a link to it.

haaz
Profile Joined May 2010
157 Posts
May 01 2012 19:48 GMT
#2
Epic ;-DDDDD

User was warned for this post
temp banned: 2 warnings: 8, my little achievments 8), last update: 23-05-2013
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
May 01 2012 19:51 GMT
#3
I've played him so many fucking times. Even on KR. He is a joke, and it's so sad how this works. I've beaten him twice, lost to him twice. Both losses on antiga shipyard. Some maps are just too abusive for cannon rushes.

The best part is after this fails, his unit control is down right awful. I believe, and after playing him, he was a plat player before, and his mechanics are lack luster.

This kind of thing makes me wish there was a way to nerf cannon rushes, as they're ridiculous on so many maps.
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
Zodiak
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada60 Posts
May 01 2012 20:08 GMT
#4
The assimilator providing free vision on the high ground vs idra was entertaining.

For balancing maps in tournament maps, gas placement relative to the ramp should be taken into account
PandaTank
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
South Africa255 Posts
May 01 2012 20:17 GMT
#5
Yeah... It sounds silly, but cannon rushes really are over powered on certain maps. Like the OP said, all you need is 5 APM to execute a cannon rush, where as to defend it you need instant reflexes, perfect probe splitting, perfect chrono's, etc. Its just silly.
facebook.com/PandaTank \\\ @PandaTankSC2
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
May 01 2012 20:18 GMT
#6
On May 02 2012 04:51 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I've played him so many fucking times. Even on KR. He is a joke, and it's so sad how this works. I've beaten him twice, lost to him twice. Both losses on antiga shipyard. Some maps are just too abusive for cannon rushes.

The best part is after this fails, his unit control is down right awful. I believe, and after playing him, he was a plat player before, and his mechanics are lack luster.

This kind of thing makes me wish there was a way to nerf cannon rushes, as they're ridiculous on so many maps.



However he beat you twice. I believe this would be more or less equal to him berating you for being worse than him at cannon rushing.
Cereal
Legion710
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada423 Posts
May 01 2012 20:20 GMT
#7
UH OH CALL THE CHEESE POLICE.


In all seriousness, i don't understand how you could effectively cannon a zerg and win the game with it?
Tyrion Lannister
denzelz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States604 Posts
May 01 2012 20:21 GMT
#8
On May 02 2012 04:51 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I've played him so many fucking times. Even on KR. He is a joke, and it's so sad how this works. I've beaten him twice, lost to him twice. Both losses on antiga shipyard. Some maps are just too abusive for cannon rushes.

The best part is after this fails, his unit control is down right awful. I believe, and after playing him, he was a plat player before, and his mechanics are lack luster.

This kind of thing makes me wish there was a way to nerf cannon rushes, as they're ridiculous on so many maps.


Totally agree with this. Early cannons are frustrating to play against, and stupid to watch from professional players. It is one of the worst things about SC2.
denzelz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States604 Posts
May 01 2012 20:21 GMT
#9
On May 02 2012 05:20 Legion710 wrote:
UH OH CALL THE CHEESE POLICE.


In all seriousness, i don't understand how you could effectively cannon a zerg and win the game with it?


Um? 3 Pylon block at the bottom of the ramp? Gain a huge advantage without changing your build? (FFE)
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-01 20:29:01
May 01 2012 20:25 GMT
#10
On May 02 2012 05:08 Zodiak wrote:
The assimilator providing free vision on the high ground vs idra was entertaining.

For balancing maps in tournament maps, gas placement relative to the ramp should be taken into account

That's what he did against me twice on antiga. Low ground cannon and pylon, take assim. What do you kill? If you pull off scvs, he's going to cancel cannons as they die, and can even block you out of your own base.

It's just a joke of a strategy that somehow works.

However he beat you twice. I believe this would be more or less equal to him berating you for being worse than him at cannon rushing.

Take the amount of times he's cannon rushed (SO FUCKING MANY. He had like 500 games last season, and already hundreds this season, and is playing on KR, and I'm sure EU) against the amount of times I've been cannon rushed.

Being 2-4 in defending when facing it only 4 times is pretty damn good for never seeing such a lame strategy that often. The bad part is, some protoss fake cannon rush and nexus -> forge -> gate. And, the level of people I play, I expect a ~9 scout to be a nexus first, rarely a cheese like this. There's no way to scout and react, since it hits before you even have marauders.

I faced him twice on KR like last week, and KNEW it was coming, did an 12/12 rax and STILL got beat. Why? Gas steal (what 900 HP for 75 minerals) high ground vision for 3 cannons. No way of picking off anything as once he gets the high ground vision, you're zoned out and can't mine the half of the minerals + he can cannon behind the cover of the other cannons.
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
SC2ShoWTimE
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany722 Posts
May 01 2012 20:29 GMT
#11
as a protoss i feel like on some maps you cant stop it when you are not lucky with your scouting. on antiga as an example there is no way you can prevent that cannon on the lowground and when the opponent controls his probes correctly he will never lose highground vision and you are simply dead.

the vod is kind of funny but it's still sad that stuff like that works so well.

on eu server i know people that got into grandmaster by doing marine scv all ins every game, building 2 offgates every game, 6 pooling every game, ...
Progamer
Legion710
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada423 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-01 20:35:17
May 01 2012 20:35 GMT
#12
I actually crushed this guy on Ohana (I'm P) and I had no clue who he was or what he did haha.
Tyrion Lannister
Grubbegrabbn
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden174 Posts
May 01 2012 20:45 GMT
#13
In order to learn something - can everyone who defeat this dudes cannon rushes post replays right here in this thread? Then perhaps we can all learn something. There see so many devilish variants of this shiz... and as someone mentioned, its darn hard to hold off this (some variants seem unbeatable?)
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
May 01 2012 20:49 GMT
#14
We've all been cannoned by him. However, I'm not sure it's unbeatable we just lack experience dealing with it.
from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
May 01 2012 20:53 GMT
#15
All you have to do is take it extremely seriously as soon as you see a single pylon. As soon as cannons start getting placed the game is over unless they were built somewhere with a lot of surface area, so just don't let their pylons complete or give them places to put cannons.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
Legion710
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada423 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-01 20:57:39
May 01 2012 20:56 GMT
#16
On May 02 2012 05:45 Grubbegrabbn wrote:
In order to learn something - can everyone who defeat this dudes cannon rushes post replays right here in this thread? Then perhaps we can all learn something. There see so many devilish variants of this shiz... and as someone mentioned, its darn hard to hold off this (some variants seem unbeatable?)



It's up on my stream somewhere in one of the last VODs.

www.twitch.tv/cocatoss

When I get home I'll show you more specifically.

The hilarious thing is that I was actually trying a new proxy stalker build I came up with and he did this. I had to rally my stalkers all the way from his base to mine to defend the cannon rush haha.
Tyrion Lannister
AyahuascaSage
Profile Joined January 2011
31 Posts
May 01 2012 20:59 GMT
#17
I was honestly impressed by his play and surprised at how deadly a well-done rush seems to be in all matchups. It's my opinion that if the rush is truly imbalanced on a map then the map should be changed to weaken the rush but I think we should look at pros and ask whether they've found ways to deal with cannon rushing just like we did for bottom ramp pylon/ bunker walloffs against zergs. Catz discusses cannon rush denial in his stream pretty in-depth since it's common to see in ZvP right now obviously.

Mikah
Profile Joined June 2011
Finland230 Posts
May 01 2012 21:07 GMT
#18
thats some sick cannon rushing!
Makuly
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Taiwan54 Posts
May 01 2012 21:08 GMT
#19
I don't know why you guys are raging so hard over cannon rushes. He's successful because he's EXTREMELY GOOD at what he does. Though given, it's only a cheese and now he's becoming more popular people will study him and shut him down soon enough.
DrunkenHomer
Profile Joined April 2012
66 Posts
May 01 2012 21:44 GMT
#20
Blizzard should just fix it, it seems even very good players fail to counter it, it gives u very easy wins and cannon rush games arent fun at all to play.
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