|
Well your second overlord should be going to the natural. I send my scouting drone at 13, the moment you see the toss scouting probe I sic a drone on it and manually control a second to get hits off by cutting corners. The overlord should see if a second probe comes up. Go pool at 14. Make sure you can get 4 lings soon as pool pops, probably will delay queen a bit.
If you don't see a probe by 14, send the drone that would be chasing the probe around the outskirts incase his probe came in-between the first ovi, your scout, and the second ovi and the to patrol on the bottom for the 3 pylon wall off.
Yes, you are 'behind' what you could be if you didn't send a drone to scout his base or if you didn't send a drone to find his probe, but not nearly enough to be a loss. Furthermore, with the scouting drone you can recoup some of the lost mining. If he went nexus first you don't need to send the second drone against the probe, if he didn't you can use your scouting drone to delay the nexus.
|
This guy is so good.. Wow, what a beast!
|
All of these are really easily to defend if you know what you're doing. The problem is that he has had HUNDREDS of games of just straight up cannon rushing, whereas most people on ladder don't know what they're doing when it comes to hold one off.
|
Today I happened to play against a cannon rusher, who sadly overbuilt cannons in his efforts to contain me. That didn't bother me at all and i was quite happy for the enormous ammount of resources he spent to do this. I usually scout protosses on 14 to check if they FFE or not (and steal their gas of course, haha) as many of them begin to realize that most zergs just assume FFE and don't expect a 4gate (or any other quick build) on big maps.
So I barely don't manage to block the probe from walling off and immediately dropped my two gas gaysers and started faking going for nydus. With my scouting probe i built a proxy hatchery, which later on produced a queen who laid a creep tumor. Protoss was stuck on 1 base as well. He had to patrol the edges of his base and place pylons everywhere, because of nydus, but it was too late, because i was actually going for a mass ling drop. A later 1 base muta transition won me the game.
My point is that when the protoss tries to do something like this his scouting is incredibly limited. He can only guess what you're doing. Also as some people said you can follow the probe and prevent it from building a pylon/cannon wall anywhere, and if it does, you can build a few extra spines to deny at least high ground vision. 
PvZ cannon rush is the hardest to pull off in my opinion, but i pity the other races. 
|
On May 02 2012 08:24 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:18 Heh_ wrote:
I admit, that was fucking hilarious. When I'm sick of playing "standard', I'm gonna do that.
About the "I don't wanna build a fucking extractor" thing: If you're dead set on going about your build without responding to your opponent, then you deserve to lose. Do you go 3 hatch against a 4 gate? Do you go 3 OC against a 6 pool? You don't? Then why not just build a fucking extractor to deny the cannon rush? The main thing is though that sure you can build that gas when you see him coming, but what if someone else does do it too? Will you need to make a list of all the players that cannon rush, so you can be ready to place that gas? I mean the gas timing doesn't really seem to need to be that spot on, with 900 hp, they can survive quite a beating, until those cannons finish on the lowground. In any case, it kind seems to be a map issue to me, just make maps with 5 hex behind the mineral lines and mineral line not so close to low ground?
You can just put a drone behind the gas right against it so they can't take it. If they go for it just take it yourself.
|
It's not a big deal if Gaulzi or anyone else make good photon rush. It's bad for the "quality" of the ladder I guess if everybody does it but it's not the case. And in a tournament, you can't beat a same player by photon him 2 twice, so I don't think that Bli² will fix it, or maybe something little like the protoss gas (900 life points, why? While T and Z's gas are lower)
|
had this done to me (dia zerg) on antiga today. I won heres how (if anyone cares)
After I saw the probe build an assimilator i knew EXACTLY what was going on:
- pulled drones to kill assimilator
-built a spine to kill pylons and cannon.-
when i saw another drones coming up used 4 drones on ramp on hold position to prevent his probe from getting up FORCING him to mineral walk
- hold position drone on gas to prevent steal
-target probe with spine
-continue on with easy win
-????
-profit
User was warned for this post
|
On May 02 2012 05:18 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 04:51 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I've played him so many fucking times. Even on KR. He is a joke, and it's so sad how this works. I've beaten him twice, lost to him twice. Both losses on antiga shipyard. Some maps are just too abusive for cannon rushes.
The best part is after this fails, his unit control is down right awful. I believe, and after playing him, he was a plat player before, and his mechanics are lack luster.
This kind of thing makes me wish there was a way to nerf cannon rushes, as they're ridiculous on so many maps. However he beat you twice. I believe this would be more or less equal to him berating you for being worse than him at cannon rushing.
who would be worse than him at cannon rushing? lol he has horrible micro
|
PvP on shakuras - tried the wall-in behind minerals several times and except some blunder on my part, it worked fine. I feel the map is a bit too easy to cannon rush on, in PvP.
|
One thing confuses me.. why do people think it's so hard to gather so much knowledge about maps, cannon positioning etc. if that's ALL that you basically do?
I mean, for me it seems it takes more time to learn a new BO than to load up a new map and comb it thoroughly with a probe. When you boil down the gameplay to just one simple faucet, it's not really amazing you get insanely productive and skillful with it.
|
yeah though i think the only reason people are angry is because his skill is evidently much lower, except it yields much better results that he should get.
|
On May 07 2012 20:39 SEA KarMa wrote:
yeah though i think the only reason people are angry is because his skill is evidently much lower, except it yields much better results that he should get.
It yields better results because he exploits a flawed mentality that people play with. As you can see from this thread, there are tons of people who aim straight for the lategame, and dismiss all kinds of early game tactics as dishonorable cheese. They won't practice to defeat these "cheese" builds because they'e far too superior to do so. So they lose because they react poorly to the cannon rush, or don't react at all. Heck, the GSL showcases a series of elaborate cheeses; MVP cheesed Naniwa out of the GSL, and look what a shitstorm it kicked up. To put it simply, a win is a win. There is no such thing as a "better" or "terrible" win.
|
I think cannon rushing is very map dependent, but i am sure there are really good ways to cannon rush on every map..especially the kind where you can just use 2 pylons to wall-off your cannon..pretty retarded that. Cheesing is good, but you need even better macro to back it up if you ever want to play tournaments.
|
On May 07 2012 21:07 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:39 SEA KarMa wrote:
yeah though i think the only reason people are angry is because his skill is evidently much lower, except it yields much better results that he should get. It yields better results because he exploits a flawed mentality that people play with. As you can see from this thread, there are tons of people who aim straight for the lategame, and dismiss all kinds of early game tactics as dishonorable cheese. They won't practice to defeat these "cheese" builds because they'e far too superior to do so. So they lose because they react poorly to the cannon rush, or don't react at all. Heck, the GSL showcases a series of elaborate cheeses; MVP cheesed Naniwa out of the GSL, and look what a shitstorm it kicked up. To put it simply, a win is a win. There is no such thing as a "better" or "terrible" win.
It's not because people don't want to, it's because you don't want to behind even from one bit to your opponent who is probably going macro (let's say a 70% chance). You can scout a 1 base all-in or cheese with a late scout too (let's say 25%) of the time.
Now, the 5% of the remaining cheeses are things you will almost never meet on the ladder and therefore never really practice against. Not only that, but their rarity makes it unlikely for you to prepare against them, because it sometimes require a stupid cut economically speaking (11 11 rax for example).
In the end, such cheesers are simply exploiting the metagame and the element of surprise. That's not skill, you don't have to be mad to see that.
|
Yeah I think the only way to balance it is changing the map for mains and naturals. Changing anything for Cannons, pylons or forge to delay it will break Protoss and force them back to 3 gate expo vs zerg and lag behind in macro (and then they would 4 gate every game because nothing else can compete with Zerg)
I think the imbalance here is that a standard 9~14 worker scouting out a cannon rush is too late and that either the -safe pylon- is too close to your base or the pylon/cannon is already sealed in a tight container that workers cannot break.
I think maps should have the main set up like a mix of Shakuras Plateau and Metal. Metal as in that the mineral line is close to the ramp and the ramp edge. and Shakuras-like that most of the edges of the main is either inaccessible lowground, double cliff or space. So that a below-cliff cannon rush can only be at the ramp where your workers can easily see it or be pulled to stop it.
As for cannon denying the nat; that's kind of a punishment for nex/cc/hatch first. It's already a gamble to play so greedy. I think nat's don't need to be so cannon-rush resistant.
|
On May 07 2012 21:19 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 21:07 Heh_ wrote:On May 07 2012 20:39 SEA KarMa wrote:
yeah though i think the only reason people are angry is because his skill is evidently much lower, except it yields much better results that he should get. It yields better results because he exploits a flawed mentality that people play with. As you can see from this thread, there are tons of people who aim straight for the lategame, and dismiss all kinds of early game tactics as dishonorable cheese. They won't practice to defeat these "cheese" builds because they'e far too superior to do so. So they lose because they react poorly to the cannon rush, or don't react at all. Heck, the GSL showcases a series of elaborate cheeses; MVP cheesed Naniwa out of the GSL, and look what a shitstorm it kicked up. To put it simply, a win is a win. There is no such thing as a "better" or "terrible" win. In the end, such cheesers are simply exploiting the metagame and the element of surprise. That's not skill, you don't have to be mad to see that.
Cannon rushes have been there since the early beta. They occur in bronze, they occur in GM and in any league in between. I don't see why they would be exploiting the metagame or the element of surprise. Yeah, they don't happen that often, but everyone should've had to deal with it a couple of times at least by now to have some ideas on how to handle it.
|
On May 07 2012 21:48 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 21:19 Kukaracha wrote:On May 07 2012 21:07 Heh_ wrote:On May 07 2012 20:39 SEA KarMa wrote:
yeah though i think the only reason people are angry is because his skill is evidently much lower, except it yields much better results that he should get. It yields better results because he exploits a flawed mentality that people play with. As you can see from this thread, there are tons of people who aim straight for the lategame, and dismiss all kinds of early game tactics as dishonorable cheese. They won't practice to defeat these "cheese" builds because they'e far too superior to do so. So they lose because they react poorly to the cannon rush, or don't react at all. Heck, the GSL showcases a series of elaborate cheeses; MVP cheesed Naniwa out of the GSL, and look what a shitstorm it kicked up. To put it simply, a win is a win. There is no such thing as a "better" or "terrible" win. In the end, such cheesers are simply exploiting the metagame and the element of surprise. That's not skill, you don't have to be mad to see that. Cannon rushes have been there since the early beta. They occur in bronze, they occur in GM and in any league in between. I don't see why they would be exploiting the metagame or the element of surprise. Yeah, they don't happen that often, but everyone should've had to deal with it a couple of times at least by now to have some ideas on how to handle it.
2 pylon walls in the mineral line and other very specific shenanigans (like Antiga, for example), can only be dealt with if you see it coming. And on 4-player maps, even an early scout will probably not scout it in time. Even if they did, how can they react against a very precise strike if they only have "an idea" on how to stop it?
You can always retort that patrolling one worker at the bottom of the ramp and one behind the mineral line should be standard, but this implies the loss of 2 workers which is a big hit against, say, a Nexus first.
As an example, I never play Toss, so it's safe to say that I have no skill with this race. And yet I can take games off high diamond players by cannon rushing. Element of surprise, basic knowledge of Protoss mechanics isn't even required.
|
On May 02 2012 06:08 Makuly wrote:
I don't know why you guys are raging so hard over cannon rushes. He's successful because he's EXTREMELY GOOD at what he does. Though given, it's only a cheese and now he's becoming more popular people will study him and shut him down soon enough.
he averages under 50 apm he isn't good at all exponentially harder to hold it of then execute it and honestly if you haven't played against it a few times like most of us then you don't have ground to say such things. And no being cannon rushed in general is't the same. You have to look at skill required to toexcute it someone with the same map knowledge (a way to defend it on each map just like he knows where to place things) and the same mechanical skill set ( that of a plat player) should be able to go atleast 50/50 with him but, really even great from defenders advantage.
|
Ask Gaulzi (i did not spell his name right lol) guy makes them cannons all day and is like masters.
|
On May 05 2012 00:04 Yaki wrote:
I'm all for a nerf to cannon rush, it's too abusive and it doesn't really require any skill. Just have to know where to put your cannons/pylons and be quick to put them down in certain situations.
something new appears:
blizzard help me he is doing something new nerf it.
knowledge is skill being quick is skill adapting is skill.
stop being such a baby.
there is someone that puts a lot of thought and preparation in his cannon rushes.its somehow expected that he has "some" success with it right?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
