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On May 02 2012 08:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:you act like zerg can magically expand just because the cannons can't hit the main mineral line and that the cannon rusher can't just build pylons and cannons to the side of the hatch to protect the low ground cannons.
What? Before you post, please read your own sentences. I have no idea what the heck you just said.
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Canada13408 Posts
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On May 02 2012 08:27 Willzzz wrote:I knew they'd have to nerf assimilators one day  If you complete your wall off quickly and then get a bunker you should be fine, Warden had the chance to wall off on the Metalopolis game, but he chose to hide his 2nd rax.
Maybe on a certain few maps a scout at his timing won't reach it before you wall off... I wall off by 14 supply every TvP and TvZ...and he's gotten in my base the 4 times I've played him, each time.
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On May 02 2012 08:59 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:39 Heh_ wrote:-----snip. you act like zerg can magically expand just because the cannons can't hit the main mineral line and that the cannon rusher can't just build pylons and cannons to the side of the hatch to protect the low ground cannons. What? Before you post, please read your own sentences. I have no idea what the heck you just said.
you are acting as if stopping a protoss player from building a gas in your main is a hard counter to a cannon rush
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On May 02 2012 09:08 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:59 Heh_ wrote:On May 02 2012 08:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:39 Heh_ wrote:-----snip. you act like zerg can magically expand just because the cannons can't hit the main mineral line and that the cannon rusher can't just build pylons and cannons to the side of the hatch to protect the low ground cannons. What? Before you post, please read your own sentences. I have no idea what the heck you just said. you are acting as if stopping a protoss player from building a gas in your main is a hard counter to a cannon rush
It is. If he cannot get a vision of the high ground, the low ground cannons are stopped dead in its tracks. You can get a spine out of range of the cannon, to stab at any probes that try to provide said vision. At that point, you have more workers than him and haven't wasted 350+ minerals. Once the probe(s) are gone, move the spine closer to attack the cannon. The queen can do that too. Then expand, or roach allin.
Edit: Obviously only on maps where the only place to put a structure is the geyser. Aka, antiga (or whatever else map).
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On May 02 2012 09:16 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 09:08 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:59 Heh_ wrote:On May 02 2012 08:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:39 Heh_ wrote:-----snip. you act like zerg can magically expand just because the cannons can't hit the main mineral line and that the cannon rusher can't just build pylons and cannons to the side of the hatch to protect the low ground cannons. What? Before you post, please read your own sentences. I have no idea what the heck you just said. you are acting as if stopping a protoss player from building a gas in your main is a hard counter to a cannon rush It is. If he cannot get a vision of the high ground, the low ground cannons are stopped dead in its tracks. You can get a spine out of range of the cannon, to stab at any probes that try to provide said vision. At that point, you have more workers than him and haven't wasted 350+ minerals. Once the probe(s) are gone, move the spine closer to attack the cannon. The queen can do that too. Then expand, or roach allin. Edit: Obviously only on maps where the only place to put a structure is the geyser. Aka, antiga (or whatever else map).
OOOOO but what if he makes a pylon
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I actually watched this Gauzli guy last week for a about an hour, he was on kr ladder and getting a reasonable win rate vs masters. It was quite disturbing at first, as a Terran player, as I only really thought of cannon rushing in pvp not thinking that maybe some people are putting time into cheese like this with correct follow ups etc.
To be fair to him he has played thousands of games cannon rushing and has it down pretty damn well. Only sad thing for him is that he has spent so much time cannon rushing that that time could have been spent getting his own standard/non cheese play to masters level, although I'm pretty sure he would not have been able to get his mmr high enough to face pro level players. Fairly amusing though 
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On May 02 2012 09:20 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 09:16 Heh_ wrote:On May 02 2012 09:08 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:59 Heh_ wrote:On May 02 2012 08:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:39 Heh_ wrote:-----snip. you act like zerg can magically expand just because the cannons can't hit the main mineral line and that the cannon rusher can't just build pylons and cannons to the side of the hatch to protect the low ground cannons. What? Before you post, please read your own sentences. I have no idea what the heck you just said. you are acting as if stopping a protoss player from building a gas in your main is a hard counter to a cannon rush It is. If he cannot get a vision of the high ground, the low ground cannons are stopped dead in its tracks. You can get a spine out of range of the cannon, to stab at any probes that try to provide said vision. At that point, you have more workers than him and haven't wasted 350+ minerals. Once the probe(s) are gone, move the spine closer to attack the cannon. The queen can do that too. Then expand, or roach allin. Edit: Obviously only on maps where the only place to put a structure is the geyser. Aka, antiga (or whatever else map). OOOOO but what if he makes a pylon
Read my edit.
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CombatEX has a guide to cannon rushing like a pro, very detailed and descriptive even..
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Isn't this the guy orb raged against?
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good catch, op. this was an informative thread... terrifying, but informative. let no man say he wasn't warned.
really hoping someone will come in and break down how to defeat this (as terran particularly), because i don't see any optimal response.
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maybe we have all been playing this game wrong?
Maybe thats the standard toss play?
Expecting a metagame shift soon///////
xD JK
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On May 02 2012 09:27 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 09:20 Picklebread wrote:On May 02 2012 09:16 Heh_ wrote:On May 02 2012 09:08 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:59 Heh_ wrote:On May 02 2012 08:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:39 Heh_ wrote:-----snip. you act like zerg can magically expand just because the cannons can't hit the main mineral line and that the cannon rusher can't just build pylons and cannons to the side of the hatch to protect the low ground cannons. What? Before you post, please read your own sentences. I have no idea what the heck you just said. you are acting as if stopping a protoss player from building a gas in your main is a hard counter to a cannon rush It is. If he cannot get a vision of the high ground, the low ground cannons are stopped dead in its tracks. You can get a spine out of range of the cannon, to stab at any probes that try to provide said vision. At that point, you have more workers than him and haven't wasted 350+ minerals. Once the probe(s) are gone, move the spine closer to attack the cannon. The queen can do that too. Then expand, or roach allin. Edit: Obviously only on maps where the only place to put a structure is the geyser. Aka, antiga (or whatever else map). OOOOO but what if he makes a pylon Read my edit.
wow i totally missed that my bad o.o
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It's a strategy that relies on you fucking up and poor repsonses. Don't fuck up, don't respond poorly. The reason Cannon Rushes work is that people panic when they happen. If you stay calm and know how to defned it you have an automatic win.
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On May 02 2012 09:16 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 09:08 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:59 Heh_ wrote:On May 02 2012 08:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:39 Heh_ wrote:-----snip. you act like zerg can magically expand just because the cannons can't hit the main mineral line and that the cannon rusher can't just build pylons and cannons to the side of the hatch to protect the low ground cannons. What? Before you post, please read your own sentences. I have no idea what the heck you just said. you are acting as if stopping a protoss player from building a gas in your main is a hard counter to a cannon rush It is. If he cannot get a vision of the high ground, the low ground cannons are stopped dead in its tracks. You can get a spine out of range of the cannon, to stab at any probes that try to provide said vision. At that point, you have more workers than him and haven't wasted 350+ minerals. Once the probe(s) are gone, move the spine closer to attack the cannon. The queen can do that too. Then expand, or roach allin. Edit: Obviously only on maps where the only place to put a structure is the geyser. Aka, antiga (or whatever else map).
If you have to wait for spine crawlers to kill cannons and pylons (which they can also tier back out of range of spines on the high ground too) then the protoss player already has their nexus before you and a significant advantage. That's why I am disagreeing with you. Cannon rushing a zerg is not about killing them literally with just cannons, it's about putting the zerg behind so much that they can't play a normal game anymore. The proper response is to just not let cannons get up where you can't kill them with drones, or to counter all-in them.
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I know that in PvP in Brood War at least, most protosses figured out a decent way to answer to this.
Simply put your first pylon in an awkward spot behind your mineral line so that it blocks any sort of cannon cheese. Your first gateway will be slightly out of place, but otherwise the rest of your buildings can go around your second pylon and continue from there.
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ok, i watched the col.Catz video about how to stop this. there are some very non intuitive, but very effective steps you need to take to ensure the cannon rush will fail.
first, you have to identify the spots where cannons will be most effective. based on pylon placement, these will usually be right near the initial pylon(s), with a partial wall off formed by the pylon(s), a terrain wall, minerals, or some combination of the three.
second, station a worker at each one of these spots, on hold position, to prevent additional pylons/cannons from being placed there.
now, if he places cannons anyway, they will be in suboptimal spots. you can then proceed to surround the cannons with workers to cancel them. 3 workers per cannon will do the trick. the key to any cannon rush working, as far as i can see, is to be able to place cannons in positions where they cannot be surrounded. use stopped workers to prevent cannons being placed in those spots, and hastily assign 3 workers to attack any exposed cannon, and the rush is easily deflected. to paraphrase catz, as soon as any cannon completes you have already lost.
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On May 02 2012 09:46 FreudianTrip wrote:
It's a strategy that relies on you fucking up and poor repsonses. Don't fuck up, don't respond poorly. The reason Cannon Rushes work is that people panic when they happen. If you stay calm and know how to defned it you have an automatic win.
Except on some maps where they can wall in behind minerals with only one space to hit the pylons(or even on some, a gateway wall) so its pretty retarded on some of the maps. I admit, most of the time you can worker drill and get in some of those spots, it just puts you more and more behind.
It's really more of a map problem than a cannon or toss problem.
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IDK the fact that he scouted him first and got that probe in is kind of a game breaker, if he gets locked out i don't see how the enemy can mess up defending it if he knows how to respond appropriately
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On May 02 2012 09:50 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 09:16 Heh_ wrote:On May 02 2012 09:08 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:59 Heh_ wrote:On May 02 2012 08:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 02 2012 08:39 Heh_ wrote:-----snip. you act like zerg can magically expand just because the cannons can't hit the main mineral line and that the cannon rusher can't just build pylons and cannons to the side of the hatch to protect the low ground cannons. What? Before you post, please read your own sentences. I have no idea what the heck you just said. you are acting as if stopping a protoss player from building a gas in your main is a hard counter to a cannon rush It is. If he cannot get a vision of the high ground, the low ground cannons are stopped dead in its tracks. You can get a spine out of range of the cannon, to stab at any probes that try to provide said vision. At that point, you have more workers than him and haven't wasted 350+ minerals. Once the probe(s) are gone, move the spine closer to attack the cannon. The queen can do that too. Then expand, or roach allin. Edit: Obviously only on maps where the only place to put a structure is the geyser. Aka, antiga (or whatever else map). If you have to wait for spine crawlers to kill cannons and pylons (which they can also tier back out of range of spines on the high ground too) then the protoss player already has their nexus before you and a significant advantage. That's why I am disagreeing with you. Cannon rushing a zerg is not about killing them literally with just cannons, it's about putting the zerg behind so much that they can't play a normal game anymore. The proper response is to just not let cannons get up where you can't kill them with drones, or to counter all-in them.
You only need to kill the cannon to stop his cannon rush. You don't need to work through the 2/3 pylons. If he built more than 1 cannon, his own expansion is also severely delayed. The cannon rusher cuts probes at 12-14.. you can still drone up while all this is happening.You're not at a significant economic disadvantage. If both players decide to expand, your hatch isn't too far behind his; you can also build 2 hatcheries just like playing vs a delayed FFE. If the protoss player expands, he has to further invest in cannons to keep himself safe against any potential allin. If he stays on 1 base, any tech is at least 4 minutes away and by this time, your expansion is secured and saturated, so it's just like playing 2 base zerg vs 1 base protoss.
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EPT
