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[Q] Can cannon rushing really be perfected? - Page 6

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 15 Next All
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
May 02 2012 11:22 GMT
#101
hilarious vod by day9 :-). The truth is, a lot of common builds are not that safe against a well thought cannon rush ..
Pulling off a successful cannon rush at high level is not that easy (pretty fun to watch lol)
21 is half the truth
Flooz
Profile Joined April 2012
United States37 Posts
May 02 2012 14:27 GMT
#102
you should check out the guy that made it to masters by just cannon rushing. he has it down to an artform. he is always streaming on twitch incase you ever wanna check it out
"There is nothing cooler than being proud of the things you love" - Day[9]
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 14:42:23
May 02 2012 14:36 GMT
#103
On May 02 2012 06:58 iAmJeffReY wrote:
It's broken because some plat dude can master 1 strat, and use it against every race, and actually play and beat pros. Obviously broken. There's like no scouting counter, if you scout it, you know its coming, and still have to pull scvs perfect, and snipe shit perfectly.


Just because it is easier to execute a strategy than defend against it doesn't mean it is broken or overpowered. Reminds me of the 1-1-1, or even just the 6 pool or Geiko's 3 Rax. Those are easy to execute, but defending them takes more skill. And that is what makes Starcraft 2 great in my opinion, you have to earn the right to play macro games. And you get there by being able to defend all-ins, pressures and cheeses.

Cannon rushing is simply a strategy with a very high win rate on certain maps if you put a lot of effort into perfecting it, and it can be done multiple ways, each of which requires a radically different response from the defender. Perfectly the response takes a long time, and that is why cannon rushing works so well, people rarely see it, and they don't know how to react to each particular version.
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
May 02 2012 14:50 GMT
#104
This is awesome time to go forge first in every matchup
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
Fogetaboudit
Profile Joined July 2010
United States232 Posts
May 02 2012 14:59 GMT
#105
On May 02 2012 23:50 Durp wrote:
This is awesome time to go forge first in every matchup

lolol
Huragius
Profile Joined September 2010
Lithuania1506 Posts
May 02 2012 15:03 GMT
#106
On May 02 2012 05:21 denzelz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2012 04:51 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I've played him so many fucking times. Even on KR. He is a joke, and it's so sad how this works. I've beaten him twice, lost to him twice. Both losses on antiga shipyard. Some maps are just too abusive for cannon rushes.

The best part is after this fails, his unit control is down right awful. I believe, and after playing him, he was a plat player before, and his mechanics are lack luster.

This kind of thing makes me wish there was a way to nerf cannon rushes, as they're ridiculous on so many maps.


Totally agree with this. Early cannons are frustrating to play against, and stupid to watch from professional players. It is one of the worst things about SC2.


Yep. This really seems to be broken. On certain maps, if he gets scout first, there is almost no safe BO against this kind of shit.

Also, don't argue that this shit takes skills. It's even more brain dead than Marine/SCV train about which most of you were bitching lol.
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
May 02 2012 15:18 GMT
#107
On May 03 2012 00:03 Huragius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2012 05:21 denzelz wrote:
On May 02 2012 04:51 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I've played him so many fucking times. Even on KR. He is a joke, and it's so sad how this works. I've beaten him twice, lost to him twice. Both losses on antiga shipyard. Some maps are just too abusive for cannon rushes.

The best part is after this fails, his unit control is down right awful. I believe, and after playing him, he was a plat player before, and his mechanics are lack luster.

This kind of thing makes me wish there was a way to nerf cannon rushes, as they're ridiculous on so many maps.


Totally agree with this. Early cannons are frustrating to play against, and stupid to watch from professional players. It is one of the worst things about SC2.


Yep. This really seems to be broken. On certain maps, if he gets scout first, there is almost no safe BO against this kind of shit.

Also, don't argue that this shit takes skills. It's even more brain dead than Marine/SCV train about which most of you were bitching lol.

There is. As others mentioned, it's called building positioning. In metalopolis, players built their structures behind the mineral lines, to create a semi-wall from cliff to minerals, making probe movements trickier. Similar things can be done on other maps.
=Þ
LordImmortala
Profile Joined October 2011
Korea (South)41 Posts
May 02 2012 15:34 GMT
#108
I just think this guy just understands the map too well. Just look at the wall off on antiga against idra. Did anyone know/think that robot on the low ground makes a wall off?
Think differently. Try unique compositions.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44248 Posts
May 02 2012 15:36 GMT
#109
That's frickin amazing ^^ Day[9] casting it made it even better.

Guy's really a beast. As cheesy as it is, you've got to give him credit for knowing exactly what he's doing.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Oatsboats
Profile Joined July 2011
United States20 Posts
May 02 2012 15:38 GMT
#110
I really think the only thing that makes his cannon rush a little more special is the gas steal. Why not take or block the gas if you're worried about it until you scout forge or no forge. Lost mining time and not optimal spending but it's safe ya? Other thing too, if pylons go down behind your mineral line, he can't mineral line walk you so just hold position him out of range from building a cannon in a tight spot
I eat bullets
iHirO
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1381 Posts
May 02 2012 16:01 GMT
#111
I realise Im only theory crafting here but couldn't the gas steal be held off by clicking a worker on it and pressing hold position?

Also a terran could prevent the probe getting into their base by pausing their barracks and completing the wall off with a depot.
GraphicsThis is for all you new people: I only have one rule. Everyone fights. No one quits. You don't do your job, I'll shoot you myself. You get me?
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
May 02 2012 16:14 GMT
#112
On May 02 2012 20:17 -YoricK- wrote:
I was wondering why I was getting cannon rushed so often today in PvP...played like 6 PvPs today, 4 were cannon rushes lol. Definitely need to build pylon and gateway behind the mineral line on maps like daybreak, getting walled out as they build cannons behind your probe line is so annoying. I've been skipping the first zealot a lot in PvP lately, but its really useful to have against cannon rushes.


It's just daybreak that's retarded as it's the best map to cannon rush ever. Only 2 pylons needed to block behind the mineral lines and when they get taken down you can only need 2 or 3 more to block again. Placing pylon and gate behind the mineral line doesn't even work that well as a smart cannon rusher can use your own buildings to complete his wall with slight adjustments and you can't completely block the cannon spots.

Best way to stop cannon rushes is often to use the probe build trick to glitch your own units into the contain and kill the probe. For example on antiga with the 2 pylon block you can glitch a probe in and prevent the cannon (same way as they glitch the unit out after making the cannon basically.)
Exoteric
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia2330 Posts
May 02 2012 16:16 GMT
#113
On May 03 2012 01:01 iHirO wrote:
I realise Im only theory crafting here but couldn't the gas steal be held off by clicking a worker on it and pressing hold position?

Also a terran could prevent the probe getting into their base by pausing their barracks and completing the wall off with a depot.


If you build an assimilater while the geyser's in your fog of war, it doesn't matter if a worker is next to it or not. Doing the second suggestion either requires an extremely early scout to see the protoss build order, or is just a blind response in the hopes that your opponent is doing a cannon rush, and would put you at a disadvantage. In any case, the protoss would just send out scouting probes earlier. A few problems I see with it(the actual cannon rush) are:

- Unless you initially react as if you're about to get cannon rushed, you have a reasonably high chance of losing to it/coming out of it with a severe disadvantage
- If you do react as if you're about to get cannon rushed and pull many workers or pre-emptively position them in 'ideal rush' locations, then you will come out behind if your opponent is just playing normally and just made 2 pylons only to cancel them when they near completion.
- It requires really good unit control from the person facing the rush to stop it
- It does require a bit of ability and good knowledge of the map layout to execute, but it's easily replicable and shouldn't be a strategy that is able to win against high master/gm opponents
hell is other people
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
May 02 2012 16:17 GMT
#114
On May 03 2012 00:34 LordImmortala wrote:
I just think this guy just understands the map too well. Just look at the wall off on antiga against idra. Did anyone know/think that robot on the low ground makes a wall off?


When a new map hits ladder pool I tend to open it once in custom just to check all the possible wallings for FFE and any cannon spots. It's really easy to see with the building grid where walloffs are possible or not, just a few have to be checked if they are tight or not generally. I'm sure this guy does that as well and even more rigorously checks all cannon spots.
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
May 02 2012 16:32 GMT
#115
meh, wbc is a way better canonrusher
TL+ Member
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
May 02 2012 16:34 GMT
#116
well the reason stuff likes this works, because people who actually train it alot, face alot of people who think its no real strat and don't even bother analyzing their mistakes. So more the fault of people thinking people don't cheese in a bo1 where you face a random opponent on a random map and only know who your opponent and map is when the game is already loading.

I mean there were people in this thread that complained about having to switch up their build towards what the opponent is doing, which is quiet funny to read, when you think about late game tech switches.

That being said, i wish i would get cheesed more often on ladder, i am lacking a bit of training there. Especially since people play so greedy most of the time, that half of my games end before they even started, ladder has lost alot of training value.

And the gas thing, worked on alot of maps before, didn't thought its still an issue, especially for terran. You can make really good mind games out of taking this gas and if they really do canon rush you, you can gain a huge advantage with a concussive marauder proxy. And zerg can block a gas forever with a few minerals and a drone away from mining.
Qwaky
Profile Joined April 2012
Croatia20 Posts
May 02 2012 16:38 GMT
#117
If guys he played against had just a bit practice against that kind of a rush, that replay pack of 5 game would be at least 2-3 losses.
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
May 02 2012 17:07 GMT
#118
On May 03 2012 01:14 Markwerf wrote:
Best way to stop cannon rushes is often to use the probe build trick to glitch your own units into the contain and kill the probe. For example on antiga with the 2 pylon block you can glitch a probe in and prevent the cannon (same way as they glitch the unit out after making the cannon basically.)

Mind=blown. I didn't think about the glitching trick. I used it to get my probe out of the pylon wall, but never to get a probe INSIDE it. Guys, this is the answer right here.
=Þ
MaV_gGSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1345 Posts
May 02 2012 17:23 GMT
#119
Wow I haven't watched a daily in a while but something tells me that this is a MUST WATCH.
Life's good :D
Josh_rakoons
Profile Joined December 2011
United Kingdom1158 Posts
May 02 2012 17:31 GMT
#120
So apparently, most gm's have mysteriously entered this thread.. interesting.. or people are just lieing.
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