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On March 09 2012 08:32 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:36 TangSC wrote:
Thumbs up, thanks for the work you put into this guide.
I don't think I've ever went fast DTs in PvP, this is something I'll have to try out. I like the concept, feels like you could just kill an overly greedy phoenix player. You're also so safe if they go for a timing without obs. pheonix player (should) be safe so long as he goes into your base with his first two phoenixes, no less. this lets him spot the dark shrine in time to ramp block until detection. I always find it funny when I autowin versus a phoenix player after he tries to be all clever and 'surprise' me with 4 phoenixes into my mineral line, just as my dt's start carving his probeline to pieces :D
Haha that's exactly what I was thinking, most players would scout it in time and lose less, but there's always going to be those few players who wait for 4 phoenix before engaging and end up dying or at least losing much more than they should.
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Blink obs into expand into double robo collosus is very hard to beat with this build in my experience. How do you stop his blink harass without taking too much damage, and how are you able to kill him if he does defensive collosi play?
I always end up losing some probes, and when I want to push they just make gateway walls and come kill me with a huge collo ball afterwards.
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Keeping a few (2) immortals on the ramp between your natural and main can help stop blink harass, assuming you have decent vision-y pylons in key blink areas. It's certainly a frustrating style to play against, though. One sim city error can cause you to lose your tech and set you way back.
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On March 10 2012 01:22 Arcanefrost wrote:
Blink obs into expand into double robo collosus is very hard to beat with this build in my experience. How do you stop his blink harass without taking too much damage, and how are you able to kill him if he does defensive collosi play?
I always end up losing some probes, and when I want to push they just make gateway walls and come kill me with a huge collo ball afterwards.
I did provide a replay vs Blink/Obs. You'll likely want to let the Nexus fall, but preserve your probe count. You also want to get a DT into their mineral line once they start attacking the Nexus. During the chaos if you have an Archon, you can probably run down the ramp and save the Nexus pretty easily. Playing against Monk however I didn't have an Archon and chose to just sack my Nexus.
Retake your natural, followup with aggression and a fast third, and you should be in really strong shape to deny their third and get a lot of time for your own double Robo.
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immortal drop play destroys dt openings, that's my only problem, charge and archon does nother vs speed prism, and blink is super far away, and not cost effective at all... I've been testing a dt based opening and other than immortal drop play, it does work vs everything more or less.
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On March 10 2012 05:55 Lobber wrote:
immortal drop play destroys dt openings, that's my only problem, charge and archon does nother vs speed prism, and blink is super far away, and not cost effective at all... I've been testing a dt based opening and other than immortal drop play, it does work vs everything more or less.
Really? I've never lost to an Immortal drop. Monk did it a good amount to me too. Maybe strong mechanics can thwart Immortal dropping, whereas someone without them might have a lot of trouble running Chargelots back and forth. What I did was just wait for Blink, and then take out the Warp Prism if it's still around. Before that I just use Zealot/Cannon.
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Question: When do you throw down forges for upgrades, and do you do one or two forges? There's several points in your flowchart where you take a third. I feel like if you're fighting at 3 base + you WILL die if you don't have upgrades (especially in a zealot heavy comp). Some players have just been opting for one forge since the amount armor negates colossus/archon fire is kind of negligible. I prefer 2 because when your at +2 with guardian shield negating 10 damage from colossus per shot is pretty substantial. Also I feel like players are shutting down 2 base zealot archon timings pretty easily with sim cities and from there it's hard to keep up in colossus count.
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What do you do against a colossus push off one base? If your dt don't do anything then you just tend to flat out die to it, thats what happens to me when I dt expand anyway.
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On March 10 2012 08:54 Nikoras wrote:
Question: When do you throw down forges for upgrades, and do you do one or two forges? There's several points in your flowchart where you take a third. I feel like if you're fighting at 3 base + you WILL die if you don't have upgrades (especially in a zealot heavy comp). Some players have just been opting for one forge since the amount armor negates colossus/archon fire is kind of negligible. I prefer 2 because when your at +2 with guardian shield negating 10 damage from colossus per shot is pretty substantial. Also I feel like players are shutting down 2 base zealot archon timings pretty easily with sim cities and from there it's hard to keep up in colossus count.
I usually add on a forge after the Natural Expansion is saturated, as before then the Vespene usage is dictated by higher priority things.
On March 10 2012 09:02 Tazerenix wrote:
What do you do against a colossus push off one base? If your dt don't do anything then you just tend to flat out die to it, thats what happens to me when I dt expand anyway.
You should put up a replay. You need to firstly engage in the open and near a Pylon for warpins. You should also have 2-4 Archons, and as many Immortals as possible. You should have at least four Warpgates.
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I'v seen all the replays but I feel that they all are different from each other(gassteal vs no gassteal etc.). Is there any way that you can provide a "clean" replay vs a easy computer? Just so I se the skeleton of the build in a "perfekt world"
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On March 10 2012 23:09 BoCCan wrote:
I'v seen all the replays but I feel that they all are different from each other(gassteal vs no gassteal etc.). Is there any way that you can provide a "clean" replay vs a easy computer? Just so I se the skeleton of the build in a "perfekt world"
This would be very helpful
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hello, thanks for posting this guide, it looks like a fun and interesting way to go about a usually boring PvP matchup. I recently made a race switch from terran to random and I want to make this my go-to build in PvP.
EDIT: wow, i have 100% loss rate trying to execute this build. when i go to poke with the 3 stalkers I can never get inside the base. by the time I arrive they have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers and after some shots are exchanged they have more units and I cant look at what they have. then i get 4gated, every time, and lose every game. how am i supposed to be able to see if he is 4gating me if i can't get in his base? are you guys always able to see all their buildings in their main with the 3 stalkers poke?
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Italy12246 Posts
The most important signal of an incoming 4gate is the amount of chronoboost saved. 4gate uses the first 2 chronos on the nexus (like most protoss builds do), and every other chrono available after that on warpgate research, in order to warp in as fast as humanly possible. Another obvious clue would be him not taking his second gas at all, but it's possible to fake someone out by taking the gas and 4gate anyway, hoping the opponent saw your gas and played too greedy.
With your first 3 stalkers you will have map control because they are stronger than an army coming from a single gate (in case of a 4gate, that's usuall 1 zealot and 1-2 stalker depending on the 4gate variation). If you see such a composition being active around the map, most especially with a probe coming along to plant proxy pylons, you should be very, very suspicious of a 4gate.
I am not expert in 4gate defense off of a 3stalker rush (i dont 3stalker rush much), but the idea is that the 3stalkers allow you to at the very least delay his attack, possibly sniping the probe and a few units, and at best outright killing his zealot/stalker/probe force. While you do this, you should get 1-2 sentries at home to forcefield your ramp in case he does commit to the 4gate (getting pylons at the bottom of the ramp and whatnot). The most important thing to remeber is that you can forcefield your ramp all day long, as long as you don't let anything up there, no units nor warpins, you are fine because you have more gas and therefore better and faster tech. If he ever completes a pylon above your ramp however you are most likely dead because he will have more production than you do.
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So I've tried this build a few times now, and i do like it a lot. However there's an "uncomfortable" point in the build for me, when both the expansion nexus and dark shrine are building and i have a grand total of like 6 units out. Is there anything that can come in this window and just flat out kill me? i got immortal pushed once which i managed to just barely hold in time with dts, so that was a nice timing... but it just seems like i have NOTHING on the map and that i'd die in a second if he went obs first from his robo
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On March 10 2012 23:09 BoCCan wrote:
I'v seen all the replays but I feel that they all are different from each other(gassteal vs no gassteal etc.). Is there any way that you can provide a "clean" replay vs a easy computer? Just so I se the skeleton of the build in a "perfekt world"
Here you go: http://drop.sc/130056
On March 11 2012 05:36 cywarrior wrote:
hello, thanks for posting this guide, it looks like a fun and interesting way to go about a usually boring PvP matchup. I recently made a race switch from terran to random and I want to make this my go-to build in PvP.
EDIT: wow, i have 100% loss rate trying to execute this build. when i go to poke with the 3 stalkers I can never get inside the base. by the time I arrive they have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers and after some shots are exchanged they have more units and I cant look at what they have. then i get 4gated, every time, and lose every game. how am i supposed to be able to see if he is 4gating me if i can't get in his base? are you guys always able to see all their buildings in their main with the 3 stalkers poke?
You should take a closer look at the 3 Stalker opening. You don't poke at the opponent's base. All your scouting info comes from your scout probe! Take a look at the priority list for your initial 3 Stalkers. It never says "Scout opponent's build or base".
On March 11 2012 05:51 McTeazy wrote:
So I've tried this build a few times now, and i do like it a lot. However there's an "uncomfortable" point in the build for me, when both the expansion nexus and dark shrine are building and i have a grand total of like 6 units out. Is there anything that can come in this window and just flat out kill me? i got immortal pushed once which i managed to just barely hold in time with dts, so that was a nice timing... but it just seems like i have NOTHING on the map and that i'd die in a second if he went obs first from his robo
Yes this time does make you feel "naked". However, you have a much earlier Nexus than your opponent and more probes. So if he does a one base Immortal allin, just sack your Nexus and come back up your ramp and defend. I've wrote about this scenario in the OP quite a bit, and have replays on it! There's an especially good one where the guy Immortal pushes, takes a pretty fast Expo, and deflects my first Dark Templar. He however got cocky and kept engaging through chokes during an even match, and ended up losing.
On March 10 2012 01:22 Arcanefrost wrote:
Blink obs into expand into double robo collosus is very hard to beat with this build in my experience. How do you stop his blink harass without taking too much damage, and how are you able to kill him if he does defensive collosi play?
I always end up losing some probes, and when I want to push they just make gateway walls and come kill me with a huge collo ball afterwards.
Blink Obs with an earlier expansion means he shouldn't have enough Blink Stalkers to bust your natural. If he skips the Nexus it's safer to pull probes up the ramp and let the Nexus fall, and expand when he does. But against someone who expands sooner and tries to harass, I've always dealt with it by keeping my Immortals up my ramp with a little support and most of my army at the Natural. Once you figure out where the Stalkers are however it's pretty easy to prevent them from getting into your main by sitting outside your Natural.
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Italy12246 Posts
Why do you like skipping a sentry? Since you retreat a good deal of the time to your ramp, it seems like that sentry could help a lot in staying alive if he tries to bust the ramp rather than take down the nexus.
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On March 12 2012 17:00 Teoita wrote:
Why do you like skipping a sentry? Since you retreat a good deal of the time to your ramp, it seems like that sentry could help a lot in staying alive if he tries to bust the ramp rather than take down the nexus.
I get it when I need it. 100 Vespene slows down your DT/Robo a lot.
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Canada262 Posts
1 base speedprism+2 immoral+1 colossus all-in. Problem?
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On April 04 2012 07:48 Zeppelin535 wrote:
1 base speedprism+2 immoral+1 colossus all-in. Problem?
Yeah it's a problem. Luckily the opponent has to do it basically blind.
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oh shit, I didn't realize you had 2 threads on this  I was reading the old one!
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EPT
