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On May 15 2012 15:57 daredpanda wrote:
I usually feel i have a lack of units when i do this build... I guess due to the quick teching yeah?
yea, should he decide to suddenly push, you need to depend on your map vision and DTs to slow him down by sending one of them in his base. Should he continue to push and not slow down, you have to sac your natural and defend your ramp, the game should be relatively even right then, assuming he was able to defend your DT successfully.
http://drop.sc/181007
i expanded with just 3 stalkers out, and it was before I placed my DT shrine down. After the DT shrine is down my next 100 gas goes to my robo. I have 5 units out and its almost 8 minutes in the game and he got a quick robo and realized i have almost no defending units. Since i had the towers, i just sent my DTs in his base and got a ton of probe kills and sniped his robo bay.
His mistake was sending his units back, when he was already so close to my natural's ramp and he didnt fully scout my base with his first observer. He saw the twilight and robo and probably assumed blink obs play. I followed up with a 6 gate, i knew if he was trying to get a robo bay again i should easily break through his defense because he spent that much more resources on robo bay and trying to catch back up in probe count.
edit: i was closely watching his first observer scout in my base and he barely missed my DT shrine, so i had a great element of surprise with those DTs.
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On May 11 2012 05:36 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 02:12 Markwerf wrote:On May 09 2012 23:48 awwnuts07 wrote:
Last night on GSL CreatorPrime used this build (edit: he used the really fast version of this build Core->TC->DS) against Puzzle. Puzzle did something so simple to prevent DTs entry into his base; he put his units on hold position at the ramp. Creator ended up winning, but Wolf kept saying Creator shouldn't have held the counter push. Wolf did a great analysis on how Puzzle was able to identify the DTs. Would any of you Masters level players mind giving the game a once over and write your thoughts? DTs suck for this reason at the higher levels imo. Basically any build in PvP can counter them by just snuffing it out on time and buying time at the ramp + getting a obs out in time. If your build includes a sentry then you can simply put 2 units on hold position at the ramp with the sentry behind it. If DT come at you get ample time to notice it and with 1 sentry for 2 FFs plus the ability to warp in 2 more sentries you can basically buy enough time to make a robo and obs even if you didn't have one. Especially if obs time get's buffed. Problem I have with DT is that they simply don't transition well, you pay a lot for a unit with minimal chance to do damage and even though you may have some small sort of map control because of them you can't do much with the tech. Acrhons made of DT are probably the least cost effective unit in the game so that's not something you want to do either. you can break a FF with a merging archon, then cancel/walk up with third DT.
How can you cancel an archon?
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If Dark Shrine wasn't 250 (which would be super good...lol and super bad for Z and T), this and an early robo would be the standard opening for PvP in my opinion. It's just so amazingly solid.
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Instead of transitioning into a Robo after my DT tech is done, I've played around with adding a Stargate or two. The idea is that your opponent will most likely be going heavy Robo himself and his Colossus tech is more readily available than yours, so if his Nexus goes up around the same time as yours, you will probably never be able to catch up in Colossus count. Your DT and follow up Phoenixes should be able to scout his chosen composition, and do enough damage/buy you enough time if he pushes out, allowing you to react accordingly. Phoenixes are surprisingly resilient since the only things he'll have to shoot them after opening Robo are Stalkers, which means your Zealots and good GB micro should be able to hold. I'm not sure how viable this strategy is at high Masters or above, but I'm had decent success with it in high Diamond/low Masters. Any thoughts?
Also, how does the new Observer build time change the DT FE? If I choose to go Robo and see no aggression, no Nexus, and no proxy pylons, I sometimes Chrono out two Observers in the same time that it used to take to build one without Chrono, send first to his base, and keep the second at home. I deal with the DT, and collect win as his Nexus finishes?
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Seems like the link to the VoD doesn't work anymore, could you handle us a new one? (If it is still available somewhere)
I would really like to watch it in order to improve.
Many thanks for your time and your hard work.-
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On May 19 2012 07:19 CyanideXN wrote:
Also, how does the new Observer build time change the DT FE?
Now with a chrono it will surely be out before the dt's are in your base.
User was warned for this post
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On May 19 2012 23:55 TheMaXiM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 07:19 CyanideXN wrote:
Also, how does the new Observer build time change the DT FE? Now with a chrono it will surely be out before the dt's are in your base. User was warned for this post
Apparently to nrgmonk this had nothing to contribute. Even though I answered a relevant question. Thanks admins, you're always so good at punishing the wrong people.
User was warned for this post
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For some weird reason, this build got almost unnoticed here in platinum back then in March and now it seems to get some popularity. Thanks Cecil for killing my PvP winrate! 
Reading the guide, it seems to me that it is basically "better than everything". But if it were the case, it would quickly become the goto build in standard PvP, so is there anything it is weak to? On my level, people are not particularly good in denying scouting, but even though I know what is coming, I get into the "now what" situation.
Unfortunately, every game I lost to this had a glaring mistake in it (to a big extend because I was so clueless) so I am actually not sure whether my "standard" play (3gate robo, obs, immortal, expand, star colo bay) is viable or not (and have no reasonable replays to show). But anyway, is there any suggested strategy to take when this is expected?
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On May 25 2012 07:20 opisska wrote:For some weird reason, this build got almost unnoticed here in platinum back then in March and now it seems to get some popularity. Thanks Cecil for killing my PvP winrate! Reading the guide, it seems to me that it is basically "better than everything". But if it were the case, it would quickly become the goto build in standard PvP, so is there anything it is weak to? On my level, people are not particularly good in denying scouting, but even though I know what is coming, I get into the "now what" situation. Unfortunately, every game I lost to this had a glaring mistake in it (to a big extend because I was so clueless) so I am actually not sure whether my "standard" play (3gate robo, obs, immortal, expand, star colo bay) is viable or not (and have no reasonable replays to show). But anyway, is there any suggested strategy to take when this is expected?
well its all explained in the original post, maybe u need to read it again... there are no "hard counters" maybe some kind of cheese or rush are difficult to handle, but generally speaking 2 robo are a good way to play against this build, keeping up with immortals first and then go to collossi, they ate zealots and are the best way to deal with mass of them.
User was warned for this post
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On May 25 2012 07:43 No_eL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:20 opisska wrote:For some weird reason, this build got almost unnoticed here in platinum back then in March and now it seems to get some popularity. Thanks Cecil for killing my PvP winrate! Reading the guide, it seems to me that it is basically "better than everything". But if it were the case, it would quickly become the goto build in standard PvP, so is there anything it is weak to? On my level, people are not particularly good in denying scouting, but even though I know what is coming, I get into the "now what" situation. Unfortunately, every game I lost to this had a glaring mistake in it (to a big extend because I was so clueless) so I am actually not sure whether my "standard" play (3gate robo, obs, immortal, expand, star colo bay) is viable or not (and have no reasonable replays to show). But anyway, is there any suggested strategy to take when this is expected? well its all explained in the original post, maybe u need to read it again... there are no "hard counters" maybe some kind of cheese or rush are difficult to handle, but generally speaking 2 robo are a good way to play against this build, keeping up with immortals first and then go to collossi, they ate zealots and are the best way to deal with mass of them.
This is pretty poor advice. Though it's been stated in this thread that there are a few different ways to die from a Robotics player unless you do something other than attack their army head-on. One of them is a small Immortal push as your Nexus finishes -if you follow the build I've set out you will just barely have not enough to hold the Nexus and as a result you'll be slightly behind. This works from the Robo player because the 1-2 Immortal push with just a few Gateway units hits before the Dark Shrine finishes, and before Charge can be finished, and you'll only have a single Immortal and a few Gateway units available. In seeing this small push you'll have to deviate and come up with some sort of solution, I like maps with a secondary ramp to utilize force fields. In order to do this though you sacrifice your Dark Shrine speed in exchange for a couple Sentries. There's an example replay in the OP where I handle this situation without a secondary ramp perfectly fine, though I was at a slight disadvantage.
You can also lose to a 1 base Colossus allin. There's not really a way I've come up with to live against, other than to get as much stuff as possible when the push arrives. You can try to get a DT into their base or even try a counter attack to slow down the Colo push just as they leave the nat. However the Colo push will basically need to be blind if you take proper measures in preventing your opponent from knowing what's going on. Hiding tech, denying their first Obs, denying scout probes, etc.
You'll also die to a very solid passive Colossus play, which takes due expansions. You can't deal any damage against a good player, even with a warp prism, and the investment into the Dark Shrine will simply put you too far behind to catch back up unless you take a faster expansion than the opponent. However it's not very easy to take no damage if the DT player is competent. I often times kill one or both Nexuses of my opponent, and snipe key structures like Robo or Support bay.
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United States8476 Posts
On May 25 2012 07:20 opisska wrote:For some weird reason, this build got almost unnoticed here in platinum back then in March and now it seems to get some popularity. Thanks Cecil for killing my PvP winrate! Reading the guide, it seems to me that it is basically "better than everything". But if it were the case, it would quickly become the goto build in standard PvP, so is there anything it is weak to? On my level, people are not particularly good in denying scouting, but even though I know what is coming, I get into the "now what" situation. Unfortunately, every game I lost to this had a glaring mistake in it (to a big extend because I was so clueless) so I am actually not sure whether my "standard" play (3gate robo, obs, immortal, expand, star colo bay) is viable or not (and have no reasonable replays to show). But anyway, is there any suggested strategy to take when this is expected?
In addition to what Cecil said, aggressive blink stalker into obs can get ahead of this build. Phoenix into robo is about even, depending on how much damage the dts do and how well both players play. Expand into robo can get slightly ahead of this build in terms of econ and fairly ahead in terms of tech. This is the passive colossi play Cecil mentioned. Basically any safer build has the potential to get ahead depending on how much damage the dts do.
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On May 25 2012 08:42 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 07:20 opisska wrote:For some weird reason, this build got almost unnoticed here in platinum back then in March and now it seems to get some popularity. Thanks Cecil for killing my PvP winrate! Reading the guide, it seems to me that it is basically "better than everything". But if it were the case, it would quickly become the goto build in standard PvP, so is there anything it is weak to? On my level, people are not particularly good in denying scouting, but even though I know what is coming, I get into the "now what" situation. Unfortunately, every game I lost to this had a glaring mistake in it (to a big extend because I was so clueless) so I am actually not sure whether my "standard" play (3gate robo, obs, immortal, expand, star colo bay) is viable or not (and have no reasonable replays to show). But anyway, is there any suggested strategy to take when this is expected? In addition to what Cecil said, aggressive blink stalker into obs can get ahead of this build. Phoenix into robo is about even, depending on how much damage the dts do and how well both players play. Expand into robo can get slightly ahead of this build in terms of econ and fairly ahead in terms of tech. This is the passive colossi play Cecil mentioned. Basically any safer build has the potential to get ahead depending on how much damage the dts do.
Imo blink obs is a better counter to this build than robo first, simply because blink hits much faster than a 2 immortal/1 collosus push. I detest this build, since it shuts down interesting builds like blink expands and just feels a bit gimmicky. The chargelot archon follow up off 1 base (against FEs) is the strongest thing about this build if the dts do damage.
Working off Cecil's modern triple stalker, you can use your first 2 warped in stalkers to block the ramp until an obs is out. If you catch the dts before they do damage, then there is a window where blink can wreak havoc, especially if they opt for a robo after nexus. It might not be possible to end the game, but you have a good shot at killing the nexus.
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Thanks for the advice - I know that most of it is already there, but the nice summary really makes it much easier to make decisions!
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Thanks a lot for this guide, especially the flowchart.
It's actually a very strong style to play. I have seen this before from HuK and didn't quite understand why he opened up with fast DTs. But with this guide, it is clear how it works and why it is so strong.
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I think it's great that DTs are finally getting some burn as more than a gimmicky all-in unit. This build/general idea is all over the ladder right now and I use it almost every ladder PvP. It's even an interesting build in that your execution of the build means SO MUCH more than their ability to get an observer and kill a DT. DT vs DT is surprisingly fun :D.
One big, big thing that needs to be in big red letters about DTs is that it constantly makes them wary of leaving their base without leaving units behind and/or making cannons in their base. I've won a ton of games with this from people wanting to all-in, me walking in and killing 7-8 probes while their units are walking across the map and then their all-in being significantly weaker which allows me to keep my Nexus and still hold their attack.
I've also won a lot of games even after losing my Nexus with backstab attacks and just a more cost-efficient unit composition overall.
This is probably one of the best PvP builds in the world right now. People really should take notice if they are having a hard time in PvP.
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Sidewinder, last I saw your stream, you opened only with one gate and chronoed 2z,1s from it and put on pressure. Any reason you prefer that opening over Cecil's 3 stalker rush?
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How do you deal with a 2 collusus push with this build. I feel like I don't have enough units to defeat this. If I send a dt to his base he will have an obs and 2 lots and so he just pushes. I just don't seem to have enough units.
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United States8476 Posts
On June 01 2012 14:40 -MoOsE- wrote:
How do you deal with a 2 collusus push with this build. I feel like I don't have enough units to defeat this. If I send a dt to his base he will have an obs and 2 lots and so he just pushes. I just don't seem to have enough units.
If your opponent doesn't take damage from dts, opened colossi, and does a well-executed 1 colossi push, you can't win.
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On June 01 2012 14:44 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 14:40 -MoOsE- wrote:
How do you deal with a 2 collusus push with this build. I feel like I don't have enough units to defeat this. If I send a dt to his base he will have an obs and 2 lots and so he just pushes. I just don't seem to have enough units. If your opponent doesn't take damage from dts, opened colossi, and does a well-executed 1 colossi push, you can't win.
Really? Even if the chargelot/archon guy is on 1 base?
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On June 01 2012 15:16 Complete wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 14:44 NrGmonk wrote:On June 01 2012 14:40 -MoOsE- wrote:
How do you deal with a 2 collusus push with this build. I feel like I don't have enough units to defeat this. If I send a dt to his base he will have an obs and 2 lots and so he just pushes. I just don't seem to have enough units. If your opponent doesn't take damage from dts, opened colossi, and does a well-executed 1 colossi push, you can't win. Really? Even if the chargelot/archon guy is on 1 base?
Your best bet in the scenario of a one base colo allin is going to likely be a base trade. Dark templar + obs snipe can be quite favorable in a base trade scenario. Go for the robo fast.
If you hide your tech the chances of the opponent being able to play reactionary is lessened. As you get higher on the ladder keeping information from your opponent becomes more important. I have my build timed so an observer comes out just about as the opponent's observer should be at the edge of one of your bases. Try to snipe it before scouting can be achieved. You can also hide your dark shrine/tc on the map somewhere.
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EPT
