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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On April 14 2012 13:06 SidewinderSC2 wrote: I love, love, love this opener. Actually one of the most solid economic openers in PvP. I'm glad you like it, but this isn't an opening but more a style  | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
So most of my games, i have been going 2 gate into 3 stalker rush and get a very quick nexus. My DT shrine usually is placed down when the nexus goes down. The moment I get another 100 gas, I try to place a robo down as quickly as possible. http://drop.sc/167391 | ||
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WolfBro
United States59 Posts
He takes out my Nexus, but he doesn't come up the ramp. He just stations his observer at my natural and moves his army away. Then when I rebuild my nexus, he just comes and forces me to cancel it. And then he just contains me. So I come down my ramp and lose because he has the better economy and better army. I'm not blaming the build, I realize I lost because I suck, I just don't understand how to come back from that and I'd imagine most opponents are going to be smart enough to realize my DTs mean I have a weak army. In this situation, he did expand before me, which I guess means he would have died to a lot of other builds, especially a 4 gate. | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On April 28 2012 18:27 WolfBro wrote: I send my DT in, I manage to kill a few probes, like, 2 maybe, 3 tops. He chronos out an observer and cleans up my DT. He then puts 2 and 2 together that my fast DTs means I probably don't have much, so he comes and kills me. He takes out my Nexus, but he doesn't come up the ramp. He just stations his observer at my natural and moves his army away. Then when I rebuild my nexus, he just comes and forces me to cancel it. And then he just contains me. So I come down my ramp and lose because he has the better economy and better army. I'm not blaming the build, I realize I lost because I suck, I just don't understand how to come back from that and I'd imagine most opponents are going to be smart enough to realize my DTs mean I have a weak army. In this situation, he did expand before me, which I guess means he would have died to a lot of other builds, especially a 4 gate. do you have a replay or something ? how the fk he kills you when you have archons and zealots ? with what ? colossi ? cuz zealot+ archon are the best shit you can get from 1-2 base . you should expand as soon as you get 3 stalkers and twilight council down , very very fast expand . how he expanded before you ? you are doing the build wrong then . | ||
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WolfBro
United States59 Posts
On April 28 2012 19:18 xsnac wrote: do you have a replay or something ? how the fk he kills you when you have archons and zealots ? with what ? colossi ? cuz zealot+ archon are the best shit you can get from 1-2 base . you should expand as soon as you get 3 stalkers and twilight council down , very very fast expand . how he expanded before you ? you are doing the build wrong then . He expanded at 5:30. With this build, based on watching the replays, you build the Nexus right after the Dark Shrine. Obviously you can expand early if you feel it can work but I'm just running it the way I saw in his replays. And at that point in the build, right after the DT harrassment, my army was very small compared to his which was on 6 gates at that point because of his early expansion. Edit: I'm prepared to call the game a fluke though and just keep going on as it was definitely my fault I lost. | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
On April 29 2012 06:03 WolfBro wrote: He expanded at 5:30. With this build, based on watching the replays, you build the Nexus right after the Dark Shrine. Obviously you can expand early if you feel it can work but I'm just running it the way I saw in his replays. And at that point in the build, right after the DT harrassment, my army was very small compared to his which was on 6 gates at that point because of his early expansion. Edit: I'm prepared to call the game a fluke though and just keep going on as it was definitely my fault I lost. ive been using this build in all my pvps and i have to say that when i see the robo when i enter his base with DTs, i immediately run away and just put the DT in some random spot so i can try again. Its not worth risking a DT to get a few probe kills, in most situations you have no idea where the observer is and if he even made one. You need that DT to buy you time when he tries to attack. You should be able to get map control and then send the DT in again when he tries to move out. | ||
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WolfBro
United States59 Posts
On April 29 2012 06:10 recklessfire wrote: ive been using this build in all my pvps and i have to say that when i see the robo when i enter his base with DTs, i immediately run away and just put the DT in some random spot so i can try again. Its not worth risking a DT to get a few probe kills, in most situations you have no idea where the observer is and if he even made one. You need that DT to buy you time when he tries to attack. You should be able to get map control and then send the DT in again when he tries to move out. Thanks, will try to keep that in mind. The build requires good decision making which isn't my strong suit | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
1gate robo into 3 gate aggression i.e, chrono boosting the zealot stalker stalker, immortal first out of the robo, then up to 3 gates and contain. I push them back to their base with my 3 stalkers but as soon as the first immortal pops out I'm forced back even if i kill all 3 units for nothing, if the 1 gate robo player is being hyper aggressive they will hit my base with 2-6 stalkers and 1-2 immortals right before my nexus finishes and before the shrine finishes. I can;t seem to find a way to hold my nexus, even if i see the push coming i will have 3 warp ins max and don't have enough gas for more than 1 sentry at this point in time (put the shrine down not long ago) so i can't hold my natural, and if i give it up, he basically contains me on one base and expands behind it, and if they then make an observer my dt harass is often shut down. I know 3 stalker opening can be a soft counter to pushes before the 7minute mark, and this build does very well against 1 base plays coming at the 9-10 minute mark (limiting resources for reinforcements, buying time, sniping obs etc. But for 1 base tech plays that hit before the shrine finishes, i.e an immortal + first warp in off 3 gates I'm not too sure what to. Edit: This could be the same issue for a fast blink play, no? | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
On April 30 2012 09:39 MateShade wrote: Hey Cecil, I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with players that go for: 1gate robo into 3 gate aggression i.e, chrono boosting the zealot stalker stalker, immortal first out of the robo, then up to 3 gates and contain. I push them back to their base with my 3 stalkers but as soon as the first immortal pops out I'm forced back even if i kill all 3 units for nothing, if the 1 gate robo player is being hyper aggressive they will hit my base with 2-6 stalkers and 1-2 immortals right before my nexus finishes and before the shrine finishes. I can;t seem to find a way to hold my nexus, even if i see the push coming i will have 3 warp ins max and don't have enough gas for more than 1 sentry at this point in time (put the shrine down not long ago) so i can't hold my natural, and if i give it up, he basically contains me on one base and expands behind it, and if they then make an observer my dt harass is often shut down. I know 3 stalker opening can be a soft counter to pushes before the 7minute mark, and this build does very well against 1 base plays coming at the 9-10 minute mark (limiting resources for reinforcements, buying time, sniping obs etc. But for 1 base tech plays that hit before the shrine finishes, i.e an immortal + first warp in off 3 gates I'm not too sure what to. Edit: This could be the same issue for a fast blink play, no? im not cecil, but if you could provide a replay, it would help alot for us to see the game. However, based on what you've said, its just way better to abandon the nexus altogether, even if its almost finished, any attack that comes around that time, you shouldnt be able to hold it (ie fast blink play, you need to cancel nexus, deny vision above ramp and hold out until DTs come) The speed of the attack shouldnt have any observers i think, so you could warp in one DT near their base and another one with your army and you should be able to hold out. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On April 28 2012 18:27 WolfBro wrote: I send my DT in, I manage to kill a few probes, like, 2 maybe, 3 tops. He chronos out an observer and cleans up my DT. He then puts 2 and 2 together that my fast DTs means I probably don't have much, so he comes and kills me. He takes out my Nexus, but he doesn't come up the ramp. He just stations his observer at my natural and moves his army away. Then when I rebuild my nexus, he just comes and forces me to cancel it. And then he just contains me. So I come down my ramp and lose because he has the better economy and better army. I'm not blaming the build, I realize I lost because I suck, I just don't understand how to come back from that and I'd imagine most opponents are going to be smart enough to realize my DTs mean I have a weak army. In this situation, he did expand before me, which I guess means he would have died to a lot of other builds, especially a 4 gate. If your opponent plays this way you have to play very tricky to win. Sneak DTs behind their army, get really good positioning, etc. There's not really a way to win straight up against a good 1 base robo build, since you've invested so much into DTs. As much as people want to say that chargelot+archon is the best shit on 1 base, you aren't going to ever hold that nexus in a straight up fight after your spent 500-600 more minerals on economy than your opponent and your DTs did no damage. | ||
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Flamebringer
Australia3 Posts
this recently got covered in Day[9] Daily 439 Daily #439 The person doing the build is HuK and the basic overview of the build is: Fast DT -> warp in 3 DTs at about 7:00 go attack base Expand + 2 gates (total of 5) -> Build Zealot Archon force Throw down 2 robotics, a bay and start doing mass colossus production off two base This build is good because it doesn't matter if the DTs do damage, the DTs are simply there to force the opponent down the robotics path. If he goes any other build he simply dies. After this it forces him to overcommit to observers and makes it extremely hard for him to move out or expand. This gives you the time to expand relatively trouble free. In the mean time, he can only push out with stalker/immortal/sentry and zealots with speed fare reasonably well against this mix (especially if you throw in some sentries of your own) | ||
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BroodRed
United States1 Post
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Mesha
Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On May 02 2012 20:02 Sated wrote: Saw somebody try this against Axslav on his stream yesterday after Axslav had gone for an Immortal expand opening. Axslav's words: "Oh, he's doing a DT expand? Well, let's just go kill him". He went up to 5gates with ~30 Probes and did just that. So does this only work if you scare your opponent into being passive enough that you have time to get Chargelots and Archons? Seems like if they know what they're up against and "just go kill" you, you're dead. The guy Axslav was against had Chargelots and a single Archon, but that's not much use against more Zealots, more Stalkers, more Sentries and Immortals. Yea, i watched the Axlav game too. He was like - what is this guy doing? He was like face palming and laughing on his way to kill the guy. Like he never even saw the strategy. But later someone put him the link on the TL strat forum, not sure if it was this one, and he explain that the strat is OK but the guy used it completely wrong. If i remember corectly he said something like - "guy had like 4 zealots and charge, you can't get charge that soon". I was really suprised how easily Axlav destoyed him and how suprised he was when he saw what the guy was doing but in all honesty - i think this guy probaly fucked up his strat - not sure, i would like to watch the game again, maybe i ll look it up in his vod list or something. Really interesting game of failing with this strategy. edit: The game is at 3:00:00 | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On May 02 2012 20:02 Sated wrote: Saw somebody try this against Axslav on his stream yesterday after Axslav had gone for an Immortal expand opening. Axslav's words: "Oh, he's doing a DT expand? Well, let's just go kill him". He went up to 5gates with ~30 Probes and did just that. So does this only work if you scare your opponent into being passive enough that you have time to get Chargelots and Archons? Seems like if they know what they're up against and "just go kill" you, you're dead. The guy Axslav was against had Chargelots and a single Archon, but that's not much use against more Zealots, more Stalkers, more Sentries and Immortals. Sounds to me like some strange retarded one base blind variation that relies on a bad opponent. The build I tried to outline has a lot of options and attempts to play in as reactive a manner as possible. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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