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Does anyone have a replay holding 1 base colossus with this? I'm kind of at a loss.
I've been doing this for about a week now, and it singlehandedly stopped me contemplating alt-F4 each time I rolled a protoss. Lately though, I've started just straight-up dying to colossi every game. I can hold immortal pushes with the backstab and/or sac natural, but colossi are different because delaying only makes his ball bigger and he can use them to bull right up my ramp.
I feel like 3+ colossi are too much to take on without the full chargelot/archon/immortal composition rolling, but it hits well before I have the numbers...
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@Belisarius
http://drop.sc/174362 ---> played on ohana
http://drop.sc/174363 ---> played on daybreak
now on the ohana game, he went a ton of stalkers which worked well into my favor because chargelots with immortals are pretty good vs those. But, i saced my natural and notice how the area up my ramp, there is a ton of room for me to surround.
The daybreak one, i stopped at about 30 probes, which was the correct response, but the engagement, not so good. I took a little too long to focus fire the colossus and i should have had maybe 2 more archons if i delayed the battle for a bit longer. Remember i want to delay the fight as long as possible, my archons will eat his zealots up, if he focus fires his colossus onto my archons, then watch him take 10 seconds to kill each archon while the rest of my army fires away. But basically i rushed the battle a little too fast and if he had just pushed my ramp i dont think i could of held, however by sniping his observer i was able to make him pull back once i warped in two DTs to attack his army.
So in retrospect, i should have sacced my natural, and waited for more archons to engage. Im 80% confident i could have won that battle if it happened about 30 seconds later.
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This build is awesome - I'm having a lot of success with it. Doing a DT poke with the first couple and then following it up with a chargelot/immortal/1 archon pressure around 12 minutes works together so smoothly.
I am still having trouble holding a 4gate with this, mostly because I'm confused about when to get tech if I scout one.
I open 3 stalker rush, scout one gas, lots of chrono saved, one zealot. I have 2 gates, and I just put my TC down. Do I:
- Cancel the TC, put a robo down, hold the 4gate with immortals but heavily delay the DTs,
- Drop a robo and leave the TC, delaying DTs as long as the pressure is on my base but risking not having enough units,
- Keep the TC but put down a third gate and hold with gateway units,
- Something completely different?
Delayed 4gates usually aren't as bad for me, because I usually have a robo out by then and one immortal kills infinity stalkers.
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Italy12248 Posts
On May 08 2012 10:05 gdroxor wrote:This build is awesome - I'm having a lot of success with it. Doing a DT poke with the first couple and then following it up with a chargelot/immortal/1 archon pressure around 12 minutes works together so smoothly. I am still having trouble holding a 4gate with this, mostly because I'm confused about when to get tech if I scout one. I open 3 stalker rush, scout one gas, lots of chrono saved, one zealot. I have 2 gates, and I just put my TC down. Do I: - Cancel the TC, put a robo down, hold the 4gate with immortals but heavily delay the DTs,
- Drop a robo and leave the TC, delaying DTs as long as the pressure is on my base but risking not having enough units,
- Keep the TC but put down a third gate and hold with gateway units,
- Something completely different?
Delayed 4gates usually aren't as bad for me, because I usually have a robo out by then and one immortal kills infinity stalkers.
As Cecil taught me, after your 3 stalkers you can do basically 3 things, depending on how what you scout:
1) vs what looks like a 4gate, get a zealot and sentry when the stalkers are done, then a third gate, and then your tech (whatever tech path you like, not necessarily a tc)
2) if you are unsure, go zealot/sentry, then your tech structure, then a third gate
3) if you can 100% rule out 4gate, you can tech before your zealot and sentry (which aren't that necessary themselves); you can also cut the fast third gate.
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Last night on GSL CreatorPrime used this build (edit: he used the really fast version of this build Core->TC->DS) against Puzzle. Puzzle did something so simple to prevent DTs entry into his base; he put his units on hold position at the ramp. Creator ended up winning, but Wolf kept saying Creator shouldn't have held the counter push. Wolf did a great analysis on how Puzzle was able to identify the DTs. Would any of you Masters level players mind giving the game a once over and write your thoughts?
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On May 09 2012 23:48 awwnuts07 wrote:
Last night on GSL CreatorPrime used this build (edit: he used the really fast version of this build Core->TC->DS) against Puzzle. Puzzle did something so simple to prevent DTs entry into his base; he put his units on hold position at the ramp. Creator ended up winning, but Wolf kept saying Creator shouldn't have held the counter push. Wolf did a great analysis on how Puzzle was able to identify the DTs. Would any of you Masters level players mind giving the game a once over and write your thoughts?
DTs suck for this reason at the higher levels imo.
Basically any build in PvP can counter them by just snuffing it out on time and buying time at the ramp + getting a obs out in time.
If your build includes a sentry then you can simply put 2 units on hold position at the ramp with the sentry behind it. If DT come at you get ample time to notice it and with 1 sentry for 2 FFs plus the ability to warp in 2 more sentries you can basically buy enough time to make a robo and obs even if you didn't have one. Especially if obs time get's buffed.
Problem I have with DT is that they simply don't transition well, you pay a lot for a unit with minimal chance to do damage and even though you may have some small sort of map control because of them you can't do much with the tech. Acrhons made of DT are probably the least cost effective unit in the game so that's not something you want to do either.
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On May 08 2012 16:50 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 10:05 gdroxor wrote:This build is awesome - I'm having a lot of success with it. Doing a DT poke with the first couple and then following it up with a chargelot/immortal/1 archon pressure around 12 minutes works together so smoothly. I am still having trouble holding a 4gate with this, mostly because I'm confused about when to get tech if I scout one. I open 3 stalker rush, scout one gas, lots of chrono saved, one zealot. I have 2 gates, and I just put my TC down. Do I: - Cancel the TC, put a robo down, hold the 4gate with immortals but heavily delay the DTs,
- Drop a robo and leave the TC, delaying DTs as long as the pressure is on my base but risking not having enough units,
- Keep the TC but put down a third gate and hold with gateway units,
- Something completely different?
Delayed 4gates usually aren't as bad for me, because I usually have a robo out by then and one immortal kills infinity stalkers. As Cecil taught me, after your 3 stalkers you can do basically 3 things, depending on how what you scout: 1) vs what looks like a 4gate, get a zealot and sentry when the stalkers are done, then a third gate, and then your tech (whatever tech path you like, not necessarily a tc) 2) if you are unsure, go zealot/sentry, then your tech structure, then a third gate 3) if you can 100% rule out 4gate, you can tech before your zealot and sentry (which aren't that necessary themselves); you can also cut the fast third gate.
Thanks for this. Scouted a 4gate last night while using this build, and the zealot/sentry were more than enough to hold off his push while my third gate finished and production kicked in.
This guide is great. I'm no pro player by any means, but I actually enjoy PvP again with this build.
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On May 07 2012 10:42 Belisarius wrote:
Does anyone have a replay holding 1 base colossus with this? I'm kind of at a loss.
I've been doing this for about a week now, and it singlehandedly stopped me contemplating alt-F4 each time I rolled a protoss. Lately though, I've started just straight-up dying to colossi every game. I can hold immortal pushes with the backstab and/or sac natural, but colossi are different because delaying only makes his ball bigger and he can use them to bull right up my ramp.
I feel like 3+ colossi are too much to take on without the full chargelot/archon/immortal composition rolling, but it hits well before I have the numbers...
http://drop.sc/176152
Both P Mid Mastes
Sentry got to use both it's guardian shields, Archons got to do a lot of splash damage and got microed back when they got low, so they survived, kept Stalkers out of range of Immortals.
I think he should've gone for 2 Colossus instead of that second Immortal.
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obv scouting shows some signs, but i always 4 gate in pvp no matter what. Yeah im a bad diamond player whatever, but everyone else 4 gates too. If you are going to do something like this in a lower league, either be confidant you can beat a 4 gate or dont bother lol.
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On May 10 2012 02:12 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 23:48 awwnuts07 wrote:
Last night on GSL CreatorPrime used this build (edit: he used the really fast version of this build Core->TC->DS) against Puzzle. Puzzle did something so simple to prevent DTs entry into his base; he put his units on hold position at the ramp. Creator ended up winning, but Wolf kept saying Creator shouldn't have held the counter push. Wolf did a great analysis on how Puzzle was able to identify the DTs. Would any of you Masters level players mind giving the game a once over and write your thoughts? DTs suck for this reason at the higher levels imo. Basically any build in PvP can counter them by just snuffing it out on time and buying time at the ramp + getting a obs out in time. If your build includes a sentry then you can simply put 2 units on hold position at the ramp with the sentry behind it. If DT come at you get ample time to notice it and with 1 sentry for 2 FFs plus the ability to warp in 2 more sentries you can basically buy enough time to make a robo and obs even if you didn't have one. Especially if obs time get's buffed. Problem I have with DT is that they simply don't transition well, you pay a lot for a unit with minimal chance to do damage and even though you may have some small sort of map control because of them you can't do much with the tech. Acrhons made of DT are probably the least cost effective unit in the game so that's not something you want to do either.
you can break a FF with a merging archon, then cancel/walk up with third DT.
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On May 11 2012 05:24 ishyishy wrote:
obv scouting shows some signs, but i always 4 gate in pvp no matter what. Yeah im a bad diamond player whatever, but everyone else 4 gates too. If you are going to do something like this in a lower league, either be confidant you can beat a 4 gate or dont bother lol.
except there is a point where your trusty 4-gate will get shut down *most of the time by masters players who get sentries at the right time without overinvesting gas, and out-muscle you in the long game.
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Italy12248 Posts
On May 11 2012 05:24 ishyishy wrote:
obv scouting shows some signs, but i always 4 gate in pvp no matter what. Yeah im a bad diamond player whatever, but everyone else 4 gates too. If you are going to do something like this in a lower league, either be confidant you can beat a 4 gate or dont bother lol.
Holding 4gate has nothing to do with this build specifically, more with executing a 3 stalker rush properly -.-
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On May 07 2012 10:42 Belisarius wrote:
Does anyone have a replay holding 1 base colossus with this? I'm kind of at a loss.
I've been doing this for about a week now, and it singlehandedly stopped me contemplating alt-F4 each time I rolled a protoss. Lately though, I've started just straight-up dying to colossi every game. I can hold immortal pushes with the backstab and/or sac natural, but colossi are different because delaying only makes his ball bigger and he can use them to bull right up my ramp.
I feel like 3+ colossi are too much to take on without the full chargelot/archon/immortal composition rolling, but it hits well before I have the numbers...
You can see Creator x Puzzle game3 at Code A ro32. Puzzle pushed with 2 immortals and 1 colossi after taking no damage from DTs. Creator didn`t build a robo and engaged at the natural ramp on Entomb Valley, with 2 archons, 6 stalkers and zome zealots. The extra stalkers helped him with a concave. Puzzle mismicroed a bit
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What is the proper response to someone that did a robo expand (players on roughly equal income) and then goes into speed warp prism immortal harass?
I feel pinned down usually till about 12 mins or so. I am able to get a very fast 3rd by cutting some other corners but the Speed Prism harass is enough to prevent me from attacking before he is ready.
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On May 14 2012 14:42 vaderseven wrote:
What is the proper response to someone that did a robo expand (players on roughly equal income) and then goes into speed warp prism immortal harass?
I feel pinned down usually till about 12 mins or so. I am able to get a very fast 3rd by cutting some other corners but the Speed Prism harass is enough to prevent me from attacking before he is ready.
can we see the replay? if he got his expansion as the same time as you, you can be very very aggressive against a robo player who is trying to get a robo bay that quickly. Depending on the map, he will have to build a wall to defend and especially on maps with wide ramp naturals like entombed valley, he has to invest quite a bit of resources to construct a solid wall, which then you can simply just expand because he invested so much into defending against your army. If he has somehow gotten away with such a fast expo and goes into immortal prism play, your going to have to get a few stalkers and zealots to spread out all over your base to defend. Stalkers need to snipe the prism and the zealots make sure the immortals dont crush your stalkers in 2 seconds. Seriously, dont be afraid to spread out your units all over your base, since he has invested in this drop play, he most likely wont be able to push out with his main army quite yet. So you can have map control and see if hes coming from a mile away should he choose to attack with his main army. Just remember to macro normally and keep trying to snipe that warp prism.
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On May 14 2012 18:34 recklessfire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 14:42 vaderseven wrote:
What is the proper response to someone that did a robo expand (players on roughly equal income) and then goes into speed warp prism immortal harass?
I feel pinned down usually till about 12 mins or so. I am able to get a very fast 3rd by cutting some other corners but the Speed Prism harass is enough to prevent me from attacking before he is ready. can we see the replay? if he got his expansion as the same time as you, you can be very very aggressive against a robo player who is trying to get a robo bay that quickly. Depending on the map, he will have to build a wall to defend and especially on maps with wide ramp naturals like entombed valley, he has to invest quite a bit of resources to construct a solid wall, which then you can simply just expand because he invested so much into defending against your army. If he has somehow gotten away with such a fast expo and goes into immortal prism play, your going to have to get a few stalkers and zealots to spread out all over your base to defend. Stalkers need to snipe the prism and the zealots make sure the immortals dont crush your stalkers in 2 seconds. Seriously, dont be afraid to spread out your units all over your base, since he has invested in this drop play, he most likely wont be able to push out with his main army quite yet. So you can have map control and see if hes coming from a mile away should he choose to attack with his main army. Just remember to macro normally and keep trying to snipe that warp prism.
http://drop.sc/180998
I really doubt that I am doing correct attack timings based on the game state. I feel so pinned till I reach a certain point of safety and then I feel the need to set him back because he gets so ahead.
Would love some advice on what to do beyond what you said because, sadly, that was all very obvious to me at least in concept.
If someone would like to share a vod or replay of DT Expand into charge/archon beating this I would love it.
There is a replay in the OP where monk does the immortal drops after FE vs Cecil but Cecil goes for 2x Starports before 3rd to get voids out. Is this a good response?
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I usually feel i have a lack of units when i do this build... I guess due to the quick teching yeah?
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EPT
