Overview The last thread I wrote on this topic was my old [G] PvP : DT -> Chareglot/Archon, where it mostly revolved around single base play. I'd like to create a new thread about a DT FE build I've been using for a long time now. Using Dark Templar, you prevent overly greedy Pheonix play, and allow yourself a very different and very fun mid-game compared to traditional PvP.
It should be noted that this guide is assuming that neither player 4 Gates! The reason for this assumption is that 4 Gate is covered in my 3 Gate link rather well, and I don't need to reinvent the wheel here.
Opening The specific early game opening doesn't matter too much, though I suggest the [G] PvP : Modern 3 Stalker. With the 3 Stalker opening, you can have a very versatile early-game. A lot of the time I'll do the 3 Stalker opener with 2-3 Gateways, and then get a Nexus. The most greedy variation thereof I get 2 Gates, a Twilight, and then a Nexus. You can however try different variations depending on the status of the early game. For example if you are being 4 Gated, you cannot FE and must thwart the 4 Gate before moving on.
Mastering the 3 Stalker opening is an important part of this build. You can defend a 4 Gate allin with ease, and you can also optionally lay down a Nexus off of 3 fast Stalkers. Your opponent will not be able to know what you're doing until they get an Observer out, or blindly attack into your Natural expansion.
DT Tech and Mid Game Overview The DT tech is integral in this whole strategy. With a fast Dark Shrine, you become immune to any build that ommits a Robotics Facility; you can defend basically anything with two Dark Templar (one in their mineral line and one at your base). If you acquire DT only to find your opponent did some weird FE with cannons, then you simply take the greediest third base you can imagine. The DT tech also grants access to archons, archons of which at 50 vespene cheaper than archons from a Templar Archives.
You should have your Dark Shrine laid just as your Twilight council finishes. If you follow what most of my replays contain, you'll have a Dark Shrine constructing off of just 2 Gateways, sometimes placed before you even morph your Gateways to WarpGates. If done properly, you should have 100 minerals and 250 vespene just as your Twilight Council finishes. As it is constructing you should have a pylon in the middle of the map. Place a Dark Templar there. The moment your opponent moves out into the middle of the map, sneak the Templar into their mineral line. This will buy you enough time to produce a couple Immortals.
Your Robitics Facility should be laid down very quickly after your Dark Shrine if you suspect your opponent is matching your Nexus. If you're opponent isn't matching your Nexus, or if you wish to have a very aggressive 2 base allin right when Archons are available, then Chrono out Charge first. Be warned however that this is risky as you'll have no detection yourself! With your DT tech to buy you time you can get out 1 observer and 1-3 Immortals before any sort of attack makes it to your Natural Expansion.
If your opponent plays safe and thwarts your initial DT tech (which happens often at higher levels, examples in replays), you aren't out of the game. You aren't even really behind due to the fast nexus. Just transition into Immortal/Zealot/Archon! The Dark Templar tech allows you to access to Archons, which hit extremely hard, and nullify Force Fields to a good extent. It should be noted you don't want more than one or two Sentries at this point.
As you can see here the builds without a Robo do very poorly against the DT tech. The rest of the builds with a StarGate do pretty poorly simple because Zealot/Archon > StarGate. The best build against a Zealot/Archon oriented one is a passive Robotics build with Colossus.
Following the flow up the point of 2/3 Gate DT Tech FE, you have some options. You can invest into Charge and go for a Zealot/Archon allin. You can get a Robotics Facility before Charge, and get out Obs/Immortal. And lastly you can get Charge and follow it up with a fast Robotics Facility. All options can work, and it's a matter of preference as to what you choose. The Flow chart assumes you've chosen either Charge then Robo or Robo then Charge. Charge first is more risky, but can have great benefits if your opponent isn't expecting it. I advise going for a faster Robotics Facility.
Your Robotics Facility will go down surprisingly fast while you have surprisingly little units. You need it in the event that the opponent has DT, you need it to shoot Observers, and you need it for Immortals. Once you have an Immortal, an Archon, and Charge your army is extremely powerful in the mid-game. Force fields can be smashed, and Stalkers/Sentries are very weak. This leaves your opponent with (assuming they went for Robo), Immortal, Colossus, and Zealot. Their Zealots are going to die faster because of your Archons (unless you let your Zealots die, watch my micro I often keep the Zealots back when I know that they cannot contribute!), and Immortals do little damage to all your units! The opponent will need a strong choke to survive.
Because your opponent requires a strong choke, you become free to take a very fast third. Most of the time a strong two base timing is best for the DT player, as keeping an opponent's army and most importantly, Colossus count low is very important. You have to either allin and win with two bases, or trade armies and delay your opponent's third base while you stockpile your own Colossus off of 3 base economy with Double Robotics Facilities. This is how this style should be played against a Robotics Macro style.
Though what if the opponent does some sort of one base Immortal push? You should have a Dark Templar out on the field waiting for their army to leave their Natural. Immediately send it into their base the moment you can. Do this repeatedly if the opponent does not set up proper detection/defenses. This will buy you a lot of time most games.
If this fails to buy you any time, then you need to pull all probes into your main. Your new goal is to now sack your Nexus to buy you even more time. Your opponent will be happy to take it! Run up your ramp and chrono out an Immortal. Make an Archon if you can, and get as many Zealots as possible. Most opponents besides those at the top of the ladder (or those that are clueless and get lucky) will attempt to bombard up your ramp thinking they're hot shit. This will put you in the lead.
Think about it, you took an early Nexus. This means you had some time to mine minerals. You also invested in probes to saturate this Natural, meaning you should have more probes than him. So you lose 400 minerals on a Nexus, and then he plants his (his is very delayed due to his push). The game is even! If he pushes up your ramp, use a FF and claim your free resources lost discrepancy. Just be sure his low ground units do not take free shots at your Zealots.
After he leaves, retake your Natural. If he does not leave and just stands your natural, then make a couple Archons and a warp prism. Smash your way down the ramp with the Archons and flank him hard with your warp prism. Then attack his base and win.
Late Game Late game is extremely unexplored. I provided some replays featuring late game where I try various things. You need Colossus and a lot of them. You also need to delay your opponents third somehow. Trade armies and take a fast third, do whatever you can to keep a large income discrepancy for as long as possible between you and your opponent.
Generally Voidrays will not work unless you sort of surprise your opponent, or are far ahead. Phoenix won't do much unless your opponent has Phoenix/Voidrays. You need Colossus in the late game. This is why I advise a double Robo after the fast third. You have a higher income than your opponent due to the early/mid-game, and should be able to trade armies in the mid-game to slow his Colossus/army production and buy enough time to pump out your own Colossus army, and win the game with a superior income.
You should always be ahead on upgrades, there isn't really an excuse. You have a higher income than your opponent!
FAQ - What about Templar Archives? Aren't Dark Templar Archons way too expensive? Answer: No they aren't too expensive. The 50 Vespene conversation more than well makes up for the mineral cost in the earlier portions of the game. By the time you can afford a Templar Archives, you'll probably be better off with Colossus tech anyways. The Dark Shrine is also much more versatile than just Chargelot/Archon. - What if your initial DT do no damage? Answer: They don't have to do damage! As long as you only lose a single DT you won't be behind your opponent. You can still utilize DT tech later in the game, and also use it for Archon supply.
On March 08 2012 14:54 orbit wrote: Is this still considered an FE? When do FE become simply E? I really like your midgame flow chart!
Yeah I'd say it's an FE for PvP. I think FE in PvP is a lot slower than PvZ or PvT matchups. The term FE itself is still a bit subjective it seems though.
this is how i used to play the other dt/archon style even though i thought i was following your guide but just doing it wrong.
when do you plant the nexus, I used to do it while the dark shrine is constructing? (cant watch replays at the moment)
I found what I used to die to so stopped doing this was a 1 immortal gateway push where they wall of ramp as they're making their second obs. I guess I was losing due to trying to hold onto my natural
On March 08 2012 23:54 ThePianoDentist wrote: this is how i used to play the other dt/archon style even though i thought i was following your guide but just doing it wrong.
when do you plant the nexus, I used to do it while the dark shrine is constructing? (cant watch replays at the moment)
I found what I used to die to so stopped doing this was a 1 immortal gateway push where they wall of ramp as they're making their second obs. I guess I was losing due to trying to hold onto my natural
I used to lose holding the natural as well. As you can see in the replays, if you sack your natural against that play you aren't really behind at all. Sure you're down 400 minerals, but you have more probes and a better composition. Just retake your natural and resume the game. You can see me do this in a couple replays.
I have been using a quite similar build to this since even before the 4gate nerfs, and I have found that if I open fast expand, I lose to blink all ins almost 100% if micro'ed well.
Instead I have been opting for 4 gates into expand followed by heavy pressure if opponent is trying to expand in response.
Midgame flow chart is almost identical to how I have been playing, however I never take a fast 3rd, I have found a fast transition to colo and hitting a timing with around 3-4 colo is quite difficult to beat.
On March 09 2012 00:33 dream-_- wrote: I have been using a quite similar build to this since even before the 4gate nerfs, and I have found that if I open fast expand, I lose to blink all ins almost 100% if micro'ed well.
Instead I have been opting for 4 gates into expand followed by heavy pressure if opponent is trying to expand in response.
Midgame flow chart is almost identical to how I have been playing, however I never take a fast 3rd, I have found a fast transition to colo and hitting a timing with around 3-4 colo is quite difficult to beat.
Do you mean a blink+ robo all-in? as I'm pretty sure dt's auto-win versus standard blink all-ins.
For second point maybe the third isn't fast enough? I found versus colossi you have to take the third ridiculously fast causing you to either jump ahead economically a lot which is really required versus colossi....or you bait him into attacking you before he's reached that critical mass of colossi where chargelots just insta-die. that's just my opinion though.
Thumbs up, thanks for the work you put into this guide.
I don't think I've ever went fast DTs in PvP, this is something I'll have to try out. I like the concept, feels like you could just kill an overly greedy phoenix player. You're also so safe if they go for a timing without obs.
Thanks for this guide, this is definitely a fun style to play in PvP. My favorite part about this build is how your initial DTs can be totally denied but you still go on to win. I do the thing from your other guide where you advocate faking a 4-gate below your opponent's ramp; if you do it convincingly enough and he builds extra sentries it more than makes up for the cost of the pylon.
In your first replay you lose to a 1 base robo, despite several lucky/advantageous engagements/surrounds. Is this style really playable against a 1 base robo?
On March 09 2012 05:36 TangSC wrote: Thumbs up, thanks for the work you put into this guide.
I don't think I've ever went fast DTs in PvP, this is something I'll have to try out. I like the concept, feels like you could just kill an overly greedy phoenix player. You're also so safe if they go for a timing without obs.
pheonix player (should) be safe so long as he goes into your base with his first two phoenixes, no less. this lets him spot the dark shrine in time to ramp block until detection. I always find it funny when I autowin versus a phoenix player after he tries to be all clever and 'surprise' me with 4 phoenixes into my mineral line, just as my dt's start carving his probeline to pieces :D
I`ve started doing the DT/Fast charge play based on your last guide (fun times when phoenix play was popular), but it worked less and less against better players, so I eventually switched to a FE/Fast robo variant as well.
I agree that the most difficult opponent is a defensive Robo player, specially one that incorporates immortal drop harass, as that drives my army way from his camp and allow him to expand faster. The transition from that spot is quite hard to pull... unless I get a perfect engagement with flanks, I usually can`t hold a strong two-base colossus push against an opp that expanded at a reasonable time. I kept trying to break my opponents with an earlier two-base zealot/archon timing to force a trade and keep Colossus numbers in check, but it is hard to do enough damage when they have a good defensive position.
I will look in the replays for some more inspiration, maybe I wasn`t being greedy enough with my third!
On March 09 2012 08:01 quillian wrote: cool style.
In your first replay you lose to a 1 base robo, despite several lucky/advantageous engagements/surrounds. Is this style really playable against a 1 base robo?
On March 09 2012 08:16 piiiT wrote: what do u do against a one base 2 colo timing that gets an observer first?
I'm not exactly sure. Nobody does this on ladder, and it might be the best response. In the replay I didn't have a pylon for warpins, but most importantly I was down two full Archons because the Vespene on my nat was late due to unnecessary probe cutting when I saw no expansion. The Archons are really important for the first engagement though, as they help press through his Zealots so yours can survive a little longer and perhaps deal more damage.
It's close, but without any more experience than that single game I played I'd say the Colossus player has an advantage. Need more games to say much anything else.
On March 09 2012 08:01 quillian wrote: cool style.
In your first replay you lose to a 1 base robo, despite several lucky/advantageous engagements/surrounds. Is this style really playable against a 1 base robo?
On March 09 2012 08:16 piiiT wrote: what do u do against a one base 2 colo timing that gets an observer first?
I'm not exactly sure. Nobody does this on ladder, and it might be the best response. In the replay I didn't have a pylon for warpins, but most importantly I was down two full Archons because the Vespene on my nat was late due to unnecessary probe cutting when I saw no expansion. The Archons are really important for the first engagement though, as they help press through his Zealots so yours can survive a little longer and perhaps deal more damage.
It's close, but without any more experience than that single game I played I'd say the Colossus player has an advantage. Need more games to say much anything else.
i've come across this on ladder somewhat often. It's the one build i have trouble with with this style.
I think it's unwinnable if you engage anywhere where the collosi can micro back up cliffs, hence why I feel you can't play this style on shakuras. so long as it's out in the open if you've cut probes to have a large enough army, if you can flank so that colossi cannot be microed back you are fine I think. I often still lose though due to timing my flank poorly.
I tend to skip robo if I poke at ramp and notice they're probably going for this colossi push for more units, i don't know whether i can get an immortal out in time and whether it's really worth it to make a robo for just one immortal when i could just have an extra archon or two.
edit:realise watching your replays you get robo way before me.
On March 09 2012 05:36 TangSC wrote: Thumbs up, thanks for the work you put into this guide.
I don't think I've ever went fast DTs in PvP, this is something I'll have to try out. I like the concept, feels like you could just kill an overly greedy phoenix player. You're also so safe if they go for a timing without obs.
pheonix player (should) be safe so long as he goes into your base with his first two phoenixes, no less. this lets him spot the dark shrine in time to ramp block until detection. I always find it funny when I autowin versus a phoenix player after he tries to be all clever and 'surprise' me with 4 phoenixes into my mineral line, just as my dt's start carving his probeline to pieces :D
Haha that's exactly what I was thinking, most players would scout it in time and lose less, but there's always going to be those few players who wait for 4 phoenix before engaging and end up dying or at least losing much more than they should.
Blink obs into expand into double robo collosus is very hard to beat with this build in my experience. How do you stop his blink harass without taking too much damage, and how are you able to kill him if he does defensive collosi play? I always end up losing some probes, and when I want to push they just make gateway walls and come kill me with a huge collo ball afterwards.
Keeping a few (2) immortals on the ramp between your natural and main can help stop blink harass, assuming you have decent vision-y pylons in key blink areas. It's certainly a frustrating style to play against, though. One sim city error can cause you to lose your tech and set you way back.
On March 10 2012 01:22 Arcanefrost wrote: Blink obs into expand into double robo collosus is very hard to beat with this build in my experience. How do you stop his blink harass without taking too much damage, and how are you able to kill him if he does defensive collosi play? I always end up losing some probes, and when I want to push they just make gateway walls and come kill me with a huge collo ball afterwards.
I did provide a replay vs Blink/Obs. You'll likely want to let the Nexus fall, but preserve your probe count. You also want to get a DT into their mineral line once they start attacking the Nexus. During the chaos if you have an Archon, you can probably run down the ramp and save the Nexus pretty easily. Playing against Monk however I didn't have an Archon and chose to just sack my Nexus.
Retake your natural, followup with aggression and a fast third, and you should be in really strong shape to deny their third and get a lot of time for your own double Robo.
immortal drop play destroys dt openings, that's my only problem, charge and archon does nother vs speed prism, and blink is super far away, and not cost effective at all... I've been testing a dt based opening and other than immortal drop play, it does work vs everything more or less.
On March 10 2012 05:55 Lobber wrote: immortal drop play destroys dt openings, that's my only problem, charge and archon does nother vs speed prism, and blink is super far away, and not cost effective at all... I've been testing a dt based opening and other than immortal drop play, it does work vs everything more or less.
Really? I've never lost to an Immortal drop. Monk did it a good amount to me too. Maybe strong mechanics can thwart Immortal dropping, whereas someone without them might have a lot of trouble running Chargelots back and forth. What I did was just wait for Blink, and then take out the Warp Prism if it's still around. Before that I just use Zealot/Cannon.
Question: When do you throw down forges for upgrades, and do you do one or two forges? There's several points in your flowchart where you take a third. I feel like if you're fighting at 3 base + you WILL die if you don't have upgrades (especially in a zealot heavy comp). Some players have just been opting for one forge since the amount armor negates colossus/archon fire is kind of negligible. I prefer 2 because when your at +2 with guardian shield negating 10 damage from colossus per shot is pretty substantial. Also I feel like players are shutting down 2 base zealot archon timings pretty easily with sim cities and from there it's hard to keep up in colossus count.
What do you do against a colossus push off one base? If your dt don't do anything then you just tend to flat out die to it, thats what happens to me when I dt expand anyway.
On March 10 2012 08:54 Nikoras wrote: Question: When do you throw down forges for upgrades, and do you do one or two forges? There's several points in your flowchart where you take a third. I feel like if you're fighting at 3 base + you WILL die if you don't have upgrades (especially in a zealot heavy comp). Some players have just been opting for one forge since the amount armor negates colossus/archon fire is kind of negligible. I prefer 2 because when your at +2 with guardian shield negating 10 damage from colossus per shot is pretty substantial. Also I feel like players are shutting down 2 base zealot archon timings pretty easily with sim cities and from there it's hard to keep up in colossus count.
I usually add on a forge after the Natural Expansion is saturated, as before then the Vespene usage is dictated by higher priority things.
On March 10 2012 09:02 Tazerenix wrote: What do you do against a colossus push off one base? If your dt don't do anything then you just tend to flat out die to it, thats what happens to me when I dt expand anyway.
You should put up a replay. You need to firstly engage in the open and near a Pylon for warpins. You should also have 2-4 Archons, and as many Immortals as possible. You should have at least four Warpgates.
I'v seen all the replays but I feel that they all are different from each other(gassteal vs no gassteal etc.). Is there any way that you can provide a "clean" replay vs a easy computer? Just so I se the skeleton of the build in a "perfekt world"
On March 10 2012 23:09 BoCCan wrote: I'v seen all the replays but I feel that they all are different from each other(gassteal vs no gassteal etc.). Is there any way that you can provide a "clean" replay vs a easy computer? Just so I se the skeleton of the build in a "perfekt world"
hello, thanks for posting this guide, it looks like a fun and interesting way to go about a usually boring PvP matchup. I recently made a race switch from terran to random and I want to make this my go-to build in PvP.
EDIT: wow, i have 100% loss rate trying to execute this build. when i go to poke with the 3 stalkers I can never get inside the base. by the time I arrive they have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers and after some shots are exchanged they have more units and I cant look at what they have. then i get 4gated, every time, and lose every game. how am i supposed to be able to see if he is 4gating me if i can't get in his base? are you guys always able to see all their buildings in their main with the 3 stalkers poke?
The most important signal of an incoming 4gate is the amount of chronoboost saved. 4gate uses the first 2 chronos on the nexus (like most protoss builds do), and every other chrono available after that on warpgate research, in order to warp in as fast as humanly possible. Another obvious clue would be him not taking his second gas at all, but it's possible to fake someone out by taking the gas and 4gate anyway, hoping the opponent saw your gas and played too greedy.
With your first 3 stalkers you will have map control because they are stronger than an army coming from a single gate (in case of a 4gate, that's usuall 1 zealot and 1-2 stalker depending on the 4gate variation). If you see such a composition being active around the map, most especially with a probe coming along to plant proxy pylons, you should be very, very suspicious of a 4gate.
I am not expert in 4gate defense off of a 3stalker rush (i dont 3stalker rush much), but the idea is that the 3stalkers allow you to at the very least delay his attack, possibly sniping the probe and a few units, and at best outright killing his zealot/stalker/probe force. While you do this, you should get 1-2 sentries at home to forcefield your ramp in case he does commit to the 4gate (getting pylons at the bottom of the ramp and whatnot). The most important thing to remeber is that you can forcefield your ramp all day long, as long as you don't let anything up there, no units nor warpins, you are fine because you have more gas and therefore better and faster tech. If he ever completes a pylon above your ramp however you are most likely dead because he will have more production than you do.
So I've tried this build a few times now, and i do like it a lot. However there's an "uncomfortable" point in the build for me, when both the expansion nexus and dark shrine are building and i have a grand total of like 6 units out. Is there anything that can come in this window and just flat out kill me? i got immortal pushed once which i managed to just barely hold in time with dts, so that was a nice timing... but it just seems like i have NOTHING on the map and that i'd die in a second if he went obs first from his robo
On March 10 2012 23:09 BoCCan wrote: I'v seen all the replays but I feel that they all are different from each other(gassteal vs no gassteal etc.). Is there any way that you can provide a "clean" replay vs a easy computer? Just so I se the skeleton of the build in a "perfekt world"
On March 11 2012 05:36 cywarrior wrote: hello, thanks for posting this guide, it looks like a fun and interesting way to go about a usually boring PvP matchup. I recently made a race switch from terran to random and I want to make this my go-to build in PvP.
EDIT: wow, i have 100% loss rate trying to execute this build. when i go to poke with the 3 stalkers I can never get inside the base. by the time I arrive they have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers and after some shots are exchanged they have more units and I cant look at what they have. then i get 4gated, every time, and lose every game. how am i supposed to be able to see if he is 4gating me if i can't get in his base? are you guys always able to see all their buildings in their main with the 3 stalkers poke?
You should take a closer look at the 3 Stalker opening. You don't poke at the opponent's base. All your scouting info comes from your scout probe! Take a look at the priority list for your initial 3 Stalkers. It never says "Scout opponent's build or base".
On March 11 2012 05:51 McTeazy wrote: So I've tried this build a few times now, and i do like it a lot. However there's an "uncomfortable" point in the build for me, when both the expansion nexus and dark shrine are building and i have a grand total of like 6 units out. Is there anything that can come in this window and just flat out kill me? i got immortal pushed once which i managed to just barely hold in time with dts, so that was a nice timing... but it just seems like i have NOTHING on the map and that i'd die in a second if he went obs first from his robo
Yes this time does make you feel "naked". However, you have a much earlier Nexus than your opponent and more probes. So if he does a one base Immortal allin, just sack your Nexus and come back up your ramp and defend. I've wrote about this scenario in the OP quite a bit, and have replays on it! There's an especially good one where the guy Immortal pushes, takes a pretty fast Expo, and deflects my first Dark Templar. He however got cocky and kept engaging through chokes during an even match, and ended up losing.
On March 10 2012 01:22 Arcanefrost wrote: Blink obs into expand into double robo collosus is very hard to beat with this build in my experience. How do you stop his blink harass without taking too much damage, and how are you able to kill him if he does defensive collosi play? I always end up losing some probes, and when I want to push they just make gateway walls and come kill me with a huge collo ball afterwards.
Blink Obs with an earlier expansion means he shouldn't have enough Blink Stalkers to bust your natural. If he skips the Nexus it's safer to pull probes up the ramp and let the Nexus fall, and expand when he does. But against someone who expands sooner and tries to harass, I've always dealt with it by keeping my Immortals up my ramp with a little support and most of my army at the Natural. Once you figure out where the Stalkers are however it's pretty easy to prevent them from getting into your main by sitting outside your Natural.
Why do you like skipping a sentry? Since you retreat a good deal of the time to your ramp, it seems like that sentry could help a lot in staying alive if he tries to bust the ramp rather than take down the nexus.
On March 12 2012 17:00 Teoita wrote: Why do you like skipping a sentry? Since you retreat a good deal of the time to your ramp, it seems like that sentry could help a lot in staying alive if he tries to bust the ramp rather than take down the nexus.
I get it when I need it. 100 Vespene slows down your DT/Robo a lot.
Generally Voidrays will not work unless you sort of surprise your opponent, or are far ahead.
Um, why do you say this? VRs are good vs colossi, I could image they might work well with chargelot/archon. As well, have you ever explored hallucination of a bunch of archons/immortals to lead the charge against colossi? They would take the initial damage allowing your charglots to get up close, and then 6 VRs would eat up a bunch of colossi...I have never tried hallu, but I have won vs a player who went with too many colossi vs my army with colossi/VR/other stuff, although I have lost too, so not sure of the particulars about this (maybe there is a critical mass of VR's needed, or enough chargelots to keep the stalkers busy while your VRs do their work, not sure).
On April 06 2012 02:30 Fierco wrote: What do you do about HuK style extremely fast DT's? It seems almost like you need a robo before twilight to stop them.
Generally Voidrays will not work unless you sort of surprise your opponent, or are far ahead.
Um, why do you say this? VRs are good vs colossi, I could image they might work well with chargelot/archon. As well, have you ever explored hallucination of a bunch of archons/immortals to lead the charge against colossi? They would take the initial damage allowing your charglots to get up close, and then 6 VRs would eat up a bunch of colossi...I have never tried hallu, but I have won vs a player who went with too many colossi vs my army with colossi/VR/other stuff, although I have lost too, so not sure of the particulars about this (maybe there is a critical mass of VR's needed, or enough chargelots to keep the stalkers busy while your VRs do their work, not sure).
Because Voidrays can be picked off pretty easily by Stalkers. I use hallucination more than any other player I know, but I never rely on it. Voidrays just don't work unless you have two maxed armies and you prevent your opponent from seeing them (in my experience).
Heh, I think that was fairly close to the scenario that I was in - I don't think we were maxed, but close (on 3 bases) and I don't believe he know about the VR. I wonder if there is a way to try and make sure that the stalkers can't pick off your VR. Um, perhaps chargelot, archon, immortal, vr? I know that without force fields, immortals beat colossi...
I'm going to try some tests tonight...
Edit: OK, I ran the tests. That unit composition rocks vs collossi stalkers, you just need to make sure that you have enough archons so FF aren't an issue.
Because Voidrays can be picked off pretty easily by Stalkers. I use hallucination more than any other player I know, but I never rely on it. Voidrays just don't work unless you have two maxed armies and you prevent your opponent from seeing them (in my experience).
On April 06 2012 02:30 Fierco wrote: What do you do about HuK style extremely fast DT's? It seems almost like you need a robo before twilight to stop them.
On April 06 2012 04:25 CecilSunkure wrote: I don't know what HuK DTs are like!
Day 9 just did a VOD on this style from HuK, but he gets 2 or so DT's extremely fast after 1 gate twilight and just attacks you with them. With this expand build there is no way to get a robo out in time to stop them, and his DT's will be out much earlier then yours because of the difference in openings.
On April 06 2012 13:36 9-BiT wrote: Double post sorry, but the box 'twilight robo' doesn't lead to anything, I'm assuming it's supposed to go to 'fast third + zealot timing etc."
Oops! Yep just draw an imaginary line for me there
I consider those builds quite easy to stop with a DT build. You force multiple observers or cannons which will delay the push and that's all you need for your gateways and charge to come online which basically crush a 1-base colo all in in the open. If they move out.
On April 09 2012 00:43 9-BiT wrote: There was a day[9] daily about Huks DT FE recently, what similarities do you see between the two builds?
similarities ? they both go for dt , one is more safe then the other . huk is more risky huk vs fast dt aswel is death meanwhile this build can survive since you got early robo too.
On April 09 2012 09:20 PurpleHazex wrote: Thanks for the guide. Playing DT/archons/Chargelots 80% of my PvP at 1000 point Masters NA.
Its really good but I haven't perfected it yet, I often lose to mass colo, I don't have time to mass up enough.
It's good to trade armies efficiently and hit multiple places at once. Colossus are best packed together, but Chargelot/Archon is best not packed together. Try to come up with ways to force engagements you like. I often win dropping a pack of DT from a WP into the main, warp in a round of Zealots, then charge into the Natural soon after with my main army.
On April 09 2012 09:20 PurpleHazex wrote: Thanks for the guide. Playing DT/archons/Chargelots 80% of my PvP at 1000 point Masters NA.
Its really good but I haven't perfected it yet, I often lose to mass colo, I don't have time to mass up enough.
It's good to trade armies efficiently and hit multiple places at once. Colossus are best packed together, but Chargelot/Archon is best not packed together. Try to come up with ways to force engagements you like. I often win dropping a pack of DT from a WP into the main, warp in a round of Zealots, then charge into the Natural soon after with my main army.
Interresting, I'll check into some of the replays, I need some exemples. I often do this, rape all his probes but he ends up just going straight to my main and then I can't do much with whats left of my army
This is great strategy but somehow i won last 5 PvPs that tried this against me. Maybe just lucky... I didn't even know it was a TL strategy by Cecil. I ask last guy i played and he said check out TL. I usually go 1gateRoboGates- sentry or 2, early immortal/obs ... and react from there. I almost always catched the DT without big damage and then made a strong push. With some micro zealots don't do as much damage as they could and immortals slam the archon/archons to the ground. When i think about it i really should have lost all the games - i think the biggest mistake that players do is wrong micro. Immortals are number one priority beacuse they melt the archon. And if i throw force fields archon has to be very close and react fast to destroy them. The chargelot/archon should beat this push.
I'm a bit confused. I'm going dark Templar rush into expansion, does this build completely omit dts as soon as you get the shrine? Because when I try this build the dts are always so late I never get them in the base.
How have you guys been doing against fast blink? Ive come across this a few times and im like in panic mode because most of my gas has gone into tech and im using pure zealots and one or two sentries to try to hold my ramp. The most recent game i had is this one. Yeah, i won the game but ive had a few where ive just died to a straight up blink rush.
So most of my games, i have been going 2 gate into 3 stalker rush and get a very quick nexus. My DT shrine usually is placed down when the nexus goes down. The moment I get another 100 gas, I try to place a robo down as quickly as possible.
I send my DT in, I manage to kill a few probes, like, 2 maybe, 3 tops. He chronos out an observer and cleans up my DT. He then puts 2 and 2 together that my fast DTs means I probably don't have much, so he comes and kills me.
He takes out my Nexus, but he doesn't come up the ramp. He just stations his observer at my natural and moves his army away. Then when I rebuild my nexus, he just comes and forces me to cancel it. And then he just contains me. So I come down my ramp and lose because he has the better economy and better army.
I'm not blaming the build, I realize I lost because I suck, I just don't understand how to come back from that and I'd imagine most opponents are going to be smart enough to realize my DTs mean I have a weak army.
In this situation, he did expand before me, which I guess means he would have died to a lot of other builds, especially a 4 gate.
On April 28 2012 18:27 WolfBro wrote: I send my DT in, I manage to kill a few probes, like, 2 maybe, 3 tops. He chronos out an observer and cleans up my DT. He then puts 2 and 2 together that my fast DTs means I probably don't have much, so he comes and kills me.
He takes out my Nexus, but he doesn't come up the ramp. He just stations his observer at my natural and moves his army away. Then when I rebuild my nexus, he just comes and forces me to cancel it. And then he just contains me. So I come down my ramp and lose because he has the better economy and better army.
I'm not blaming the build, I realize I lost because I suck, I just don't understand how to come back from that and I'd imagine most opponents are going to be smart enough to realize my DTs mean I have a weak army.
In this situation, he did expand before me, which I guess means he would have died to a lot of other builds, especially a 4 gate.
do you have a replay or something ? how the fk he kills you when you have archons and zealots ? with what ? colossi ? cuz zealot+ archon are the best shit you can get from 1-2 base .
you should expand as soon as you get 3 stalkers and twilight council down , very very fast expand . how he expanded before you ? you are doing the build wrong then .
On April 28 2012 18:27 WolfBro wrote: I send my DT in, I manage to kill a few probes, like, 2 maybe, 3 tops. He chronos out an observer and cleans up my DT. He then puts 2 and 2 together that my fast DTs means I probably don't have much, so he comes and kills me.
He takes out my Nexus, but he doesn't come up the ramp. He just stations his observer at my natural and moves his army away. Then when I rebuild my nexus, he just comes and forces me to cancel it. And then he just contains me. So I come down my ramp and lose because he has the better economy and better army.
I'm not blaming the build, I realize I lost because I suck, I just don't understand how to come back from that and I'd imagine most opponents are going to be smart enough to realize my DTs mean I have a weak army.
In this situation, he did expand before me, which I guess means he would have died to a lot of other builds, especially a 4 gate.
do you have a replay or something ? how the fk he kills you when you have archons and zealots ? with what ? colossi ? cuz zealot+ archon are the best shit you can get from 1-2 base .
you should expand as soon as you get 3 stalkers and twilight council down , very very fast expand . how he expanded before you ? you are doing the build wrong then .
He expanded at 5:30. With this build, based on watching the replays, you build the Nexus right after the Dark Shrine. Obviously you can expand early if you feel it can work but I'm just running it the way I saw in his replays. And at that point in the build, right after the DT harrassment, my army was very small compared to his which was on 6 gates at that point because of his early expansion.
Edit: I'm prepared to call the game a fluke though and just keep going on as it was definitely my fault I lost.
On April 28 2012 18:27 WolfBro wrote: I send my DT in, I manage to kill a few probes, like, 2 maybe, 3 tops. He chronos out an observer and cleans up my DT. He then puts 2 and 2 together that my fast DTs means I probably don't have much, so he comes and kills me.
He takes out my Nexus, but he doesn't come up the ramp. He just stations his observer at my natural and moves his army away. Then when I rebuild my nexus, he just comes and forces me to cancel it. And then he just contains me. So I come down my ramp and lose because he has the better economy and better army.
I'm not blaming the build, I realize I lost because I suck, I just don't understand how to come back from that and I'd imagine most opponents are going to be smart enough to realize my DTs mean I have a weak army.
In this situation, he did expand before me, which I guess means he would have died to a lot of other builds, especially a 4 gate.
do you have a replay or something ? how the fk he kills you when you have archons and zealots ? with what ? colossi ? cuz zealot+ archon are the best shit you can get from 1-2 base .
you should expand as soon as you get 3 stalkers and twilight council down , very very fast expand . how he expanded before you ? you are doing the build wrong then .
He expanded at 5:30. With this build, based on watching the replays, you build the Nexus right after the Dark Shrine. Obviously you can expand early if you feel it can work but I'm just running it the way I saw in his replays. And at that point in the build, right after the DT harrassment, my army was very small compared to his which was on 6 gates at that point because of his early expansion.
Edit: I'm prepared to call the game a fluke though and just keep going on as it was definitely my fault I lost.
ive been using this build in all my pvps and i have to say that when i see the robo when i enter his base with DTs, i immediately run away and just put the DT in some random spot so i can try again. Its not worth risking a DT to get a few probe kills, in most situations you have no idea where the observer is and if he even made one. You need that DT to buy you time when he tries to attack. You should be able to get map control and then send the DT in again when he tries to move out.
On April 28 2012 18:27 WolfBro wrote: I send my DT in, I manage to kill a few probes, like, 2 maybe, 3 tops. He chronos out an observer and cleans up my DT. He then puts 2 and 2 together that my fast DTs means I probably don't have much, so he comes and kills me.
He takes out my Nexus, but he doesn't come up the ramp. He just stations his observer at my natural and moves his army away. Then when I rebuild my nexus, he just comes and forces me to cancel it. And then he just contains me. So I come down my ramp and lose because he has the better economy and better army.
I'm not blaming the build, I realize I lost because I suck, I just don't understand how to come back from that and I'd imagine most opponents are going to be smart enough to realize my DTs mean I have a weak army.
In this situation, he did expand before me, which I guess means he would have died to a lot of other builds, especially a 4 gate.
do you have a replay or something ? how the fk he kills you when you have archons and zealots ? with what ? colossi ? cuz zealot+ archon are the best shit you can get from 1-2 base .
you should expand as soon as you get 3 stalkers and twilight council down , very very fast expand . how he expanded before you ? you are doing the build wrong then .
He expanded at 5:30. With this build, based on watching the replays, you build the Nexus right after the Dark Shrine. Obviously you can expand early if you feel it can work but I'm just running it the way I saw in his replays. And at that point in the build, right after the DT harrassment, my army was very small compared to his which was on 6 gates at that point because of his early expansion.
Edit: I'm prepared to call the game a fluke though and just keep going on as it was definitely my fault I lost.
ive been using this build in all my pvps and i have to say that when i see the robo when i enter his base with DTs, i immediately run away and just put the DT in some random spot so i can try again. Its not worth risking a DT to get a few probe kills, in most situations you have no idea where the observer is and if he even made one. You need that DT to buy you time when he tries to attack. You should be able to get map control and then send the DT in again when he tries to move out.
Thanks, will try to keep that in mind. The build requires good decision making which isn't my strong suit
Hey Cecil, I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with players that go for:
1gate robo into 3 gate aggression
i.e, chrono boosting the zealot stalker stalker, immortal first out of the robo, then up to 3 gates and contain.
I push them back to their base with my 3 stalkers but as soon as the first immortal pops out I'm forced back even if i kill all 3 units for nothing, if the 1 gate robo player is being hyper aggressive they will hit my base with 2-6 stalkers and 1-2 immortals right before my nexus finishes and before the shrine finishes. I can;t seem to find a way to hold my nexus, even if i see the push coming i will have 3 warp ins max and don't have enough gas for more than 1 sentry at this point in time (put the shrine down not long ago) so i can't hold my natural, and if i give it up, he basically contains me on one base and expands behind it, and if they then make an observer my dt harass is often shut down.
I know 3 stalker opening can be a soft counter to pushes before the 7minute mark, and this build does very well against 1 base plays coming at the 9-10 minute mark (limiting resources for reinforcements, buying time, sniping obs etc. But for 1 base tech plays that hit before the shrine finishes, i.e an immortal + first warp in off 3 gates I'm not too sure what to.
Edit: This could be the same issue for a fast blink play, no?
On April 30 2012 09:39 MateShade wrote: Hey Cecil, I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with players that go for:
1gate robo into 3 gate aggression
i.e, chrono boosting the zealot stalker stalker, immortal first out of the robo, then up to 3 gates and contain.
I push them back to their base with my 3 stalkers but as soon as the first immortal pops out I'm forced back even if i kill all 3 units for nothing, if the 1 gate robo player is being hyper aggressive they will hit my base with 2-6 stalkers and 1-2 immortals right before my nexus finishes and before the shrine finishes. I can;t seem to find a way to hold my nexus, even if i see the push coming i will have 3 warp ins max and don't have enough gas for more than 1 sentry at this point in time (put the shrine down not long ago) so i can't hold my natural, and if i give it up, he basically contains me on one base and expands behind it, and if they then make an observer my dt harass is often shut down.
I know 3 stalker opening can be a soft counter to pushes before the 7minute mark, and this build does very well against 1 base plays coming at the 9-10 minute mark (limiting resources for reinforcements, buying time, sniping obs etc. But for 1 base tech plays that hit before the shrine finishes, i.e an immortal + first warp in off 3 gates I'm not too sure what to.
Edit: This could be the same issue for a fast blink play, no?
im not cecil, but if you could provide a replay, it would help alot for us to see the game. However, based on what you've said, its just way better to abandon the nexus altogether, even if its almost finished, any attack that comes around that time, you shouldnt be able to hold it (ie fast blink play, you need to cancel nexus, deny vision above ramp and hold out until DTs come) The speed of the attack shouldnt have any observers i think, so you could warp in one DT near their base and another one with your army and you should be able to hold out.
On April 28 2012 18:27 WolfBro wrote: I send my DT in, I manage to kill a few probes, like, 2 maybe, 3 tops. He chronos out an observer and cleans up my DT. He then puts 2 and 2 together that my fast DTs means I probably don't have much, so he comes and kills me.
He takes out my Nexus, but he doesn't come up the ramp. He just stations his observer at my natural and moves his army away. Then when I rebuild my nexus, he just comes and forces me to cancel it. And then he just contains me. So I come down my ramp and lose because he has the better economy and better army.
I'm not blaming the build, I realize I lost because I suck, I just don't understand how to come back from that and I'd imagine most opponents are going to be smart enough to realize my DTs mean I have a weak army.
In this situation, he did expand before me, which I guess means he would have died to a lot of other builds, especially a 4 gate.
If your opponent plays this way you have to play very tricky to win. Sneak DTs behind their army, get really good positioning, etc.
There's not really a way to win straight up against a good 1 base robo build, since you've invested so much into DTs. As much as people want to say that chargelot+archon is the best shit on 1 base, you aren't going to ever hold that nexus in a straight up fight after your spent 500-600 more minerals on economy than your opponent and your DTs did no damage.
this recently got covered in Day[9] Daily 439 Daily #439
The person doing the build is HuK and the basic overview of the build is: Fast DT -> warp in 3 DTs at about 7:00 go attack base Expand + 2 gates (total of 5) -> Build Zealot Archon force Throw down 2 robotics, a bay and start doing mass colossus production off two base
This build is good because it doesn't matter if the DTs do damage, the DTs are simply there to force the opponent down the robotics path. If he goes any other build he simply dies. After this it forces him to overcommit to observers and makes it extremely hard for him to move out or expand. This gives you the time to expand relatively trouble free. In the mean time, he can only push out with stalker/immortal/sentry and zealots with speed fare reasonably well against this mix (especially if you throw in some sentries of your own)
On May 02 2012 20:02 Sated wrote: Saw somebody try this against Axslav on his stream yesterday after Axslav had gone for an Immortal expand opening. Axslav's words: "Oh, he's doing a DT expand? Well, let's just go kill him". He went up to 5gates with ~30 Probes and did just that.
So does this only work if you scare your opponent into being passive enough that you have time to get Chargelots and Archons? Seems like if they know what they're up against and "just go kill" you, you're dead. The guy Axslav was against had Chargelots and a single Archon, but that's not much use against more Zealots, more Stalkers, more Sentries and Immortals.
Yea, i watched the Axlav game too. He was like - what is this guy doing? He was like face palming and laughing on his way to kill the guy. Like he never even saw the strategy. But later someone put him the link on the TL strat forum, not sure if it was this one, and he explain that the strat is OK but the guy used it completely wrong. If i remember corectly he said something like - "guy had like 4 zealots and charge, you can't get charge that soon". I was really suprised how easily Axlav destoyed him and how suprised he was when he saw what the guy was doing but in all honesty - i think this guy probaly fucked up his strat - not sure, i would like to watch the game again, maybe i ll look it up in his vod list or something. Really interesting game of failing with this strategy.
On May 02 2012 20:02 Sated wrote: Saw somebody try this against Axslav on his stream yesterday after Axslav had gone for an Immortal expand opening. Axslav's words: "Oh, he's doing a DT expand? Well, let's just go kill him". He went up to 5gates with ~30 Probes and did just that.
So does this only work if you scare your opponent into being passive enough that you have time to get Chargelots and Archons? Seems like if they know what they're up against and "just go kill" you, you're dead. The guy Axslav was against had Chargelots and a single Archon, but that's not much use against more Zealots, more Stalkers, more Sentries and Immortals.
Sounds to me like some strange retarded one base blind variation that relies on a bad opponent. The build I tried to outline has a lot of options and attempts to play in as reactive a manner as possible.
Does anyone have a replay holding 1 base colossus with this? I'm kind of at a loss.
I've been doing this for about a week now, and it singlehandedly stopped me contemplating alt-F4 each time I rolled a protoss. Lately though, I've started just straight-up dying to colossi every game. I can hold immortal pushes with the backstab and/or sac natural, but colossi are different because delaying only makes his ball bigger and he can use them to bull right up my ramp.
I feel like 3+ colossi are too much to take on without the full chargelot/archon/immortal composition rolling, but it hits well before I have the numbers...
now on the ohana game, he went a ton of stalkers which worked well into my favor because chargelots with immortals are pretty good vs those. But, i saced my natural and notice how the area up my ramp, there is a ton of room for me to surround.
The daybreak one, i stopped at about 30 probes, which was the correct response, but the engagement, not so good. I took a little too long to focus fire the colossus and i should have had maybe 2 more archons if i delayed the battle for a bit longer. Remember i want to delay the fight as long as possible, my archons will eat his zealots up, if he focus fires his colossus onto my archons, then watch him take 10 seconds to kill each archon while the rest of my army fires away. But basically i rushed the battle a little too fast and if he had just pushed my ramp i dont think i could of held, however by sniping his observer i was able to make him pull back once i warped in two DTs to attack his army.
So in retrospect, i should have sacced my natural, and waited for more archons to engage. Im 80% confident i could have won that battle if it happened about 30 seconds later.
This build is awesome - I'm having a lot of success with it. Doing a DT poke with the first couple and then following it up with a chargelot/immortal/1 archon pressure around 12 minutes works together so smoothly.
I am still having trouble holding a 4gate with this, mostly because I'm confused about when to get tech if I scout one. I open 3 stalker rush, scout one gas, lots of chrono saved, one zealot. I have 2 gates, and I just put my TC down. Do I:
Cancel the TC, put a robo down, hold the 4gate with immortals but heavily delay the DTs,
Drop a robo and leave the TC, delaying DTs as long as the pressure is on my base but risking not having enough units,
Keep the TC but put down a third gate and hold with gateway units,
Something completely different?
Delayed 4gates usually aren't as bad for me, because I usually have a robo out by then and one immortal kills infinity stalkers.
On May 08 2012 10:05 gdroxor wrote: This build is awesome - I'm having a lot of success with it. Doing a DT poke with the first couple and then following it up with a chargelot/immortal/1 archon pressure around 12 minutes works together so smoothly.
I am still having trouble holding a 4gate with this, mostly because I'm confused about when to get tech if I scout one. I open 3 stalker rush, scout one gas, lots of chrono saved, one zealot. I have 2 gates, and I just put my TC down. Do I:
Cancel the TC, put a robo down, hold the 4gate with immortals but heavily delay the DTs,
Drop a robo and leave the TC, delaying DTs as long as the pressure is on my base but risking not having enough units,
Keep the TC but put down a third gate and hold with gateway units,
Something completely different?
Delayed 4gates usually aren't as bad for me, because I usually have a robo out by then and one immortal kills infinity stalkers.
As Cecil taught me, after your 3 stalkers you can do basically 3 things, depending on how what you scout: 1) vs what looks like a 4gate, get a zealot and sentry when the stalkers are done, then a third gate, and then your tech (whatever tech path you like, not necessarily a tc) 2) if you are unsure, go zealot/sentry, then your tech structure, then a third gate 3) if you can 100% rule out 4gate, you can tech before your zealot and sentry (which aren't that necessary themselves); you can also cut the fast third gate.
Last night on GSL CreatorPrime used this build (edit: he used the really fast version of this build Core->TC->DS) against Puzzle. Puzzle did something so simple to prevent DTs entry into his base; he put his units on hold position at the ramp. Creator ended up winning, but Wolf kept saying Creator shouldn't have held the counter push. Wolf did a great analysis on how Puzzle was able to identify the DTs. Would any of you Masters level players mind giving the game a once over and write your thoughts?
On May 09 2012 23:48 awwnuts07 wrote: Last night on GSL CreatorPrime used this build (edit: he used the really fast version of this build Core->TC->DS) against Puzzle. Puzzle did something so simple to prevent DTs entry into his base; he put his units on hold position at the ramp. Creator ended up winning, but Wolf kept saying Creator shouldn't have held the counter push. Wolf did a great analysis on how Puzzle was able to identify the DTs. Would any of you Masters level players mind giving the game a once over and write your thoughts?
DTs suck for this reason at the higher levels imo. Basically any build in PvP can counter them by just snuffing it out on time and buying time at the ramp + getting a obs out in time. If your build includes a sentry then you can simply put 2 units on hold position at the ramp with the sentry behind it. If DT come at you get ample time to notice it and with 1 sentry for 2 FFs plus the ability to warp in 2 more sentries you can basically buy enough time to make a robo and obs even if you didn't have one. Especially if obs time get's buffed. Problem I have with DT is that they simply don't transition well, you pay a lot for a unit with minimal chance to do damage and even though you may have some small sort of map control because of them you can't do much with the tech. Acrhons made of DT are probably the least cost effective unit in the game so that's not something you want to do either.
On May 08 2012 10:05 gdroxor wrote: This build is awesome - I'm having a lot of success with it. Doing a DT poke with the first couple and then following it up with a chargelot/immortal/1 archon pressure around 12 minutes works together so smoothly.
I am still having trouble holding a 4gate with this, mostly because I'm confused about when to get tech if I scout one. I open 3 stalker rush, scout one gas, lots of chrono saved, one zealot. I have 2 gates, and I just put my TC down. Do I:
Cancel the TC, put a robo down, hold the 4gate with immortals but heavily delay the DTs,
Drop a robo and leave the TC, delaying DTs as long as the pressure is on my base but risking not having enough units,
Keep the TC but put down a third gate and hold with gateway units,
Something completely different?
Delayed 4gates usually aren't as bad for me, because I usually have a robo out by then and one immortal kills infinity stalkers.
As Cecil taught me, after your 3 stalkers you can do basically 3 things, depending on how what you scout: 1) vs what looks like a 4gate, get a zealot and sentry when the stalkers are done, then a third gate, and then your tech (whatever tech path you like, not necessarily a tc) 2) if you are unsure, go zealot/sentry, then your tech structure, then a third gate 3) if you can 100% rule out 4gate, you can tech before your zealot and sentry (which aren't that necessary themselves); you can also cut the fast third gate.
Thanks for this. Scouted a 4gate last night while using this build, and the zealot/sentry were more than enough to hold off his push while my third gate finished and production kicked in.
This guide is great. I'm no pro player by any means, but I actually enjoy PvP again with this build.
On May 07 2012 10:42 Belisarius wrote: Does anyone have a replay holding 1 base colossus with this? I'm kind of at a loss.
I've been doing this for about a week now, and it singlehandedly stopped me contemplating alt-F4 each time I rolled a protoss. Lately though, I've started just straight-up dying to colossi every game. I can hold immortal pushes with the backstab and/or sac natural, but colossi are different because delaying only makes his ball bigger and he can use them to bull right up my ramp.
I feel like 3+ colossi are too much to take on without the full chargelot/archon/immortal composition rolling, but it hits well before I have the numbers...
Sentry got to use both it's guardian shields, Archons got to do a lot of splash damage and got microed back when they got low, so they survived, kept Stalkers out of range of Immortals.
I think he should've gone for 2 Colossus instead of that second Immortal.
obv scouting shows some signs, but i always 4 gate in pvp no matter what. Yeah im a bad diamond player whatever, but everyone else 4 gates too. If you are going to do something like this in a lower league, either be confidant you can beat a 4 gate or dont bother lol.
On May 09 2012 23:48 awwnuts07 wrote: Last night on GSL CreatorPrime used this build (edit: he used the really fast version of this build Core->TC->DS) against Puzzle. Puzzle did something so simple to prevent DTs entry into his base; he put his units on hold position at the ramp. Creator ended up winning, but Wolf kept saying Creator shouldn't have held the counter push. Wolf did a great analysis on how Puzzle was able to identify the DTs. Would any of you Masters level players mind giving the game a once over and write your thoughts?
DTs suck for this reason at the higher levels imo. Basically any build in PvP can counter them by just snuffing it out on time and buying time at the ramp + getting a obs out in time. If your build includes a sentry then you can simply put 2 units on hold position at the ramp with the sentry behind it. If DT come at you get ample time to notice it and with 1 sentry for 2 FFs plus the ability to warp in 2 more sentries you can basically buy enough time to make a robo and obs even if you didn't have one. Especially if obs time get's buffed. Problem I have with DT is that they simply don't transition well, you pay a lot for a unit with minimal chance to do damage and even though you may have some small sort of map control because of them you can't do much with the tech. Acrhons made of DT are probably the least cost effective unit in the game so that's not something you want to do either.
you can break a FF with a merging archon, then cancel/walk up with third DT.
On May 11 2012 05:24 ishyishy wrote: obv scouting shows some signs, but i always 4 gate in pvp no matter what. Yeah im a bad diamond player whatever, but everyone else 4 gates too. If you are going to do something like this in a lower league, either be confidant you can beat a 4 gate or dont bother lol.
except there is a point where your trusty 4-gate will get shut down *most of the time by masters players who get sentries at the right time without overinvesting gas, and out-muscle you in the long game.
On May 11 2012 05:24 ishyishy wrote: obv scouting shows some signs, but i always 4 gate in pvp no matter what. Yeah im a bad diamond player whatever, but everyone else 4 gates too. If you are going to do something like this in a lower league, either be confidant you can beat a 4 gate or dont bother lol.
Holding 4gate has nothing to do with this build specifically, more with executing a 3 stalker rush properly -.-
On May 07 2012 10:42 Belisarius wrote: Does anyone have a replay holding 1 base colossus with this? I'm kind of at a loss.
I've been doing this for about a week now, and it singlehandedly stopped me contemplating alt-F4 each time I rolled a protoss. Lately though, I've started just straight-up dying to colossi every game. I can hold immortal pushes with the backstab and/or sac natural, but colossi are different because delaying only makes his ball bigger and he can use them to bull right up my ramp.
I feel like 3+ colossi are too much to take on without the full chargelot/archon/immortal composition rolling, but it hits well before I have the numbers...
You can see Creator x Puzzle game3 at Code A ro32. Puzzle pushed with 2 immortals and 1 colossi after taking no damage from DTs. Creator didn`t build a robo and engaged at the natural ramp on Entomb Valley, with 2 archons, 6 stalkers and zome zealots. The extra stalkers helped him with a concave. Puzzle mismicroed a bit
What is the proper response to someone that did a robo expand (players on roughly equal income) and then goes into speed warp prism immortal harass?
I feel pinned down usually till about 12 mins or so. I am able to get a very fast 3rd by cutting some other corners but the Speed Prism harass is enough to prevent me from attacking before he is ready.
On May 14 2012 14:42 vaderseven wrote: What is the proper response to someone that did a robo expand (players on roughly equal income) and then goes into speed warp prism immortal harass?
I feel pinned down usually till about 12 mins or so. I am able to get a very fast 3rd by cutting some other corners but the Speed Prism harass is enough to prevent me from attacking before he is ready.
can we see the replay? if he got his expansion as the same time as you, you can be very very aggressive against a robo player who is trying to get a robo bay that quickly. Depending on the map, he will have to build a wall to defend and especially on maps with wide ramp naturals like entombed valley, he has to invest quite a bit of resources to construct a solid wall, which then you can simply just expand because he invested so much into defending against your army. If he has somehow gotten away with such a fast expo and goes into immortal prism play, your going to have to get a few stalkers and zealots to spread out all over your base to defend. Stalkers need to snipe the prism and the zealots make sure the immortals dont crush your stalkers in 2 seconds. Seriously, dont be afraid to spread out your units all over your base, since he has invested in this drop play, he most likely wont be able to push out with his main army quite yet. So you can have map control and see if hes coming from a mile away should he choose to attack with his main army. Just remember to macro normally and keep trying to snipe that warp prism.
On May 14 2012 14:42 vaderseven wrote: What is the proper response to someone that did a robo expand (players on roughly equal income) and then goes into speed warp prism immortal harass?
I feel pinned down usually till about 12 mins or so. I am able to get a very fast 3rd by cutting some other corners but the Speed Prism harass is enough to prevent me from attacking before he is ready.
can we see the replay? if he got his expansion as the same time as you, you can be very very aggressive against a robo player who is trying to get a robo bay that quickly. Depending on the map, he will have to build a wall to defend and especially on maps with wide ramp naturals like entombed valley, he has to invest quite a bit of resources to construct a solid wall, which then you can simply just expand because he invested so much into defending against your army. If he has somehow gotten away with such a fast expo and goes into immortal prism play, your going to have to get a few stalkers and zealots to spread out all over your base to defend. Stalkers need to snipe the prism and the zealots make sure the immortals dont crush your stalkers in 2 seconds. Seriously, dont be afraid to spread out your units all over your base, since he has invested in this drop play, he most likely wont be able to push out with his main army quite yet. So you can have map control and see if hes coming from a mile away should he choose to attack with his main army. Just remember to macro normally and keep trying to snipe that warp prism.
I really doubt that I am doing correct attack timings based on the game state. I feel so pinned till I reach a certain point of safety and then I feel the need to set him back because he gets so ahead.
Would love some advice on what to do beyond what you said because, sadly, that was all very obvious to me at least in concept.
If someone would like to share a vod or replay of DT Expand into charge/archon beating this I would love it.
There is a replay in the OP where monk does the immortal drops after FE vs Cecil but Cecil goes for 2x Starports before 3rd to get voids out. Is this a good response?
On May 15 2012 15:57 daredpanda wrote: I usually feel i have a lack of units when i do this build... I guess due to the quick teching yeah?
yea, should he decide to suddenly push, you need to depend on your map vision and DTs to slow him down by sending one of them in his base. Should he continue to push and not slow down, you have to sac your natural and defend your ramp, the game should be relatively even right then, assuming he was able to defend your DT successfully.
i expanded with just 3 stalkers out, and it was before I placed my DT shrine down. After the DT shrine is down my next 100 gas goes to my robo. I have 5 units out and its almost 8 minutes in the game and he got a quick robo and realized i have almost no defending units. Since i had the towers, i just sent my DTs in his base and got a ton of probe kills and sniped his robo bay.
His mistake was sending his units back, when he was already so close to my natural's ramp and he didnt fully scout my base with his first observer. He saw the twilight and robo and probably assumed blink obs play. I followed up with a 6 gate, i knew if he was trying to get a robo bay again i should easily break through his defense because he spent that much more resources on robo bay and trying to catch back up in probe count.
edit: i was closely watching his first observer scout in my base and he barely missed my DT shrine, so i had a great element of surprise with those DTs.
On May 09 2012 23:48 awwnuts07 wrote: Last night on GSL CreatorPrime used this build (edit: he used the really fast version of this build Core->TC->DS) against Puzzle. Puzzle did something so simple to prevent DTs entry into his base; he put his units on hold position at the ramp. Creator ended up winning, but Wolf kept saying Creator shouldn't have held the counter push. Wolf did a great analysis on how Puzzle was able to identify the DTs. Would any of you Masters level players mind giving the game a once over and write your thoughts?
DTs suck for this reason at the higher levels imo. Basically any build in PvP can counter them by just snuffing it out on time and buying time at the ramp + getting a obs out in time. If your build includes a sentry then you can simply put 2 units on hold position at the ramp with the sentry behind it. If DT come at you get ample time to notice it and with 1 sentry for 2 FFs plus the ability to warp in 2 more sentries you can basically buy enough time to make a robo and obs even if you didn't have one. Especially if obs time get's buffed. Problem I have with DT is that they simply don't transition well, you pay a lot for a unit with minimal chance to do damage and even though you may have some small sort of map control because of them you can't do much with the tech. Acrhons made of DT are probably the least cost effective unit in the game so that's not something you want to do either.
you can break a FF with a merging archon, then cancel/walk up with third DT.
If Dark Shrine wasn't 250 (which would be super good...lol and super bad for Z and T), this and an early robo would be the standard opening for PvP in my opinion. It's just so amazingly solid.
Instead of transitioning into a Robo after my DT tech is done, I've played around with adding a Stargate or two. The idea is that your opponent will most likely be going heavy Robo himself and his Colossus tech is more readily available than yours, so if his Nexus goes up around the same time as yours, you will probably never be able to catch up in Colossus count. Your DT and follow up Phoenixes should be able to scout his chosen composition, and do enough damage/buy you enough time if he pushes out, allowing you to react accordingly. Phoenixes are surprisingly resilient since the only things he'll have to shoot them after opening Robo are Stalkers, which means your Zealots and good GB micro should be able to hold. I'm not sure how viable this strategy is at high Masters or above, but I'm had decent success with it in high Diamond/low Masters. Any thoughts?
Also, how does the new Observer build time change the DT FE? If I choose to go Robo and see no aggression, no Nexus, and no proxy pylons, I sometimes Chrono out two Observers in the same time that it used to take to build one without Chrono, send first to his base, and keep the second at home. I deal with the DT, and collect win as his Nexus finishes?
Seems like the link to the VoD doesn't work anymore, could you handle us a new one? (If it is still available somewhere) I would really like to watch it in order to improve.
On May 19 2012 07:19 CyanideXN wrote: Also, how does the new Observer build time change the DT FE?
Now with a chrono it will surely be out before the dt's are in your base.
User was warned for this post
Apparently to nrgmonk this had nothing to contribute. Even though I answered a relevant question. Thanks admins, you're always so good at punishing the wrong people.
For some weird reason, this build got almost unnoticed here in platinum back then in March and now it seems to get some popularity. Thanks Cecil for killing my PvP winrate!
Reading the guide, it seems to me that it is basically "better than everything". But if it were the case, it would quickly become the goto build in standard PvP, so is there anything it is weak to? On my level, people are not particularly good in denying scouting, but even though I know what is coming, I get into the "now what" situation.
Unfortunately, every game I lost to this had a glaring mistake in it (to a big extend because I was so clueless) so I am actually not sure whether my "standard" play (3gate robo, obs, immortal, expand, star colo bay) is viable or not (and have no reasonable replays to show). But anyway, is there any suggested strategy to take when this is expected?
On May 25 2012 07:20 opisska wrote: For some weird reason, this build got almost unnoticed here in platinum back then in March and now it seems to get some popularity. Thanks Cecil for killing my PvP winrate!
Reading the guide, it seems to me that it is basically "better than everything". But if it were the case, it would quickly become the goto build in standard PvP, so is there anything it is weak to? On my level, people are not particularly good in denying scouting, but even though I know what is coming, I get into the "now what" situation.
Unfortunately, every game I lost to this had a glaring mistake in it (to a big extend because I was so clueless) so I am actually not sure whether my "standard" play (3gate robo, obs, immortal, expand, star colo bay) is viable or not (and have no reasonable replays to show). But anyway, is there any suggested strategy to take when this is expected?
well its all explained in the original post, maybe u need to read it again... there are no "hard counters" maybe some kind of cheese or rush are difficult to handle, but generally speaking 2 robo are a good way to play against this build, keeping up with immortals first and then go to collossi, they ate zealots and are the best way to deal with mass of them.
On May 25 2012 07:20 opisska wrote: For some weird reason, this build got almost unnoticed here in platinum back then in March and now it seems to get some popularity. Thanks Cecil for killing my PvP winrate!
Reading the guide, it seems to me that it is basically "better than everything". But if it were the case, it would quickly become the goto build in standard PvP, so is there anything it is weak to? On my level, people are not particularly good in denying scouting, but even though I know what is coming, I get into the "now what" situation.
Unfortunately, every game I lost to this had a glaring mistake in it (to a big extend because I was so clueless) so I am actually not sure whether my "standard" play (3gate robo, obs, immortal, expand, star colo bay) is viable or not (and have no reasonable replays to show). But anyway, is there any suggested strategy to take when this is expected?
well its all explained in the original post, maybe u need to read it again... there are no "hard counters" maybe some kind of cheese or rush are difficult to handle, but generally speaking 2 robo are a good way to play against this build, keeping up with immortals first and then go to collossi, they ate zealots and are the best way to deal with mass of them.
This is pretty poor advice. Though it's been stated in this thread that there are a few different ways to die from a Robotics player unless you do something other than attack their army head-on. One of them is a small Immortal push as your Nexus finishes -if you follow the build I've set out you will just barely have not enough to hold the Nexus and as a result you'll be slightly behind. This works from the Robo player because the 1-2 Immortal push with just a few Gateway units hits before the Dark Shrine finishes, and before Charge can be finished, and you'll only have a single Immortal and a few Gateway units available. In seeing this small push you'll have to deviate and come up with some sort of solution, I like maps with a secondary ramp to utilize force fields. In order to do this though you sacrifice your Dark Shrine speed in exchange for a couple Sentries. There's an example replay in the OP where I handle this situation without a secondary ramp perfectly fine, though I was at a slight disadvantage.
You can also lose to a 1 base Colossus allin. There's not really a way I've come up with to live against, other than to get as much stuff as possible when the push arrives. You can try to get a DT into their base or even try a counter attack to slow down the Colo push just as they leave the nat. However the Colo push will basically need to be blind if you take proper measures in preventing your opponent from knowing what's going on. Hiding tech, denying their first Obs, denying scout probes, etc.
You'll also die to a very solid passive Colossus play, which takes due expansions. You can't deal any damage against a good player, even with a warp prism, and the investment into the Dark Shrine will simply put you too far behind to catch back up unless you take a faster expansion than the opponent. However it's not very easy to take no damage if the DT player is competent. I often times kill one or both Nexuses of my opponent, and snipe key structures like Robo or Support bay.
On May 25 2012 07:20 opisska wrote: For some weird reason, this build got almost unnoticed here in platinum back then in March and now it seems to get some popularity. Thanks Cecil for killing my PvP winrate!
Reading the guide, it seems to me that it is basically "better than everything". But if it were the case, it would quickly become the goto build in standard PvP, so is there anything it is weak to? On my level, people are not particularly good in denying scouting, but even though I know what is coming, I get into the "now what" situation.
Unfortunately, every game I lost to this had a glaring mistake in it (to a big extend because I was so clueless) so I am actually not sure whether my "standard" play (3gate robo, obs, immortal, expand, star colo bay) is viable or not (and have no reasonable replays to show). But anyway, is there any suggested strategy to take when this is expected?
In addition to what Cecil said, aggressive blink stalker into obs can get ahead of this build. Phoenix into robo is about even, depending on how much damage the dts do and how well both players play. Expand into robo can get slightly ahead of this build in terms of econ and fairly ahead in terms of tech. This is the passive colossi play Cecil mentioned. Basically any safer build has the potential to get ahead depending on how much damage the dts do.
On May 25 2012 07:20 opisska wrote: For some weird reason, this build got almost unnoticed here in platinum back then in March and now it seems to get some popularity. Thanks Cecil for killing my PvP winrate!
Reading the guide, it seems to me that it is basically "better than everything". But if it were the case, it would quickly become the goto build in standard PvP, so is there anything it is weak to? On my level, people are not particularly good in denying scouting, but even though I know what is coming, I get into the "now what" situation.
Unfortunately, every game I lost to this had a glaring mistake in it (to a big extend because I was so clueless) so I am actually not sure whether my "standard" play (3gate robo, obs, immortal, expand, star colo bay) is viable or not (and have no reasonable replays to show). But anyway, is there any suggested strategy to take when this is expected?
In addition to what Cecil said, aggressive blink stalker into obs can get ahead of this build. Phoenix into robo is about even, depending on how much damage the dts do and how well both players play. Expand into robo can get slightly ahead of this build in terms of econ and fairly ahead in terms of tech. This is the passive colossi play Cecil mentioned. Basically any safer build has the potential to get ahead depending on how much damage the dts do.
Imo blink obs is a better counter to this build than robo first, simply because blink hits much faster than a 2 immortal/1 collosus push. I detest this build, since it shuts down interesting builds like blink expands and just feels a bit gimmicky. The chargelot archon follow up off 1 base (against FEs) is the strongest thing about this build if the dts do damage.
Working off Cecil's modern triple stalker, you can use your first 2 warped in stalkers to block the ramp until an obs is out. If you catch the dts before they do damage, then there is a window where blink can wreak havoc, especially if they opt for a robo after nexus. It might not be possible to end the game, but you have a good shot at killing the nexus.
Thanks a lot for this guide, especially the flowchart. It's actually a very strong style to play. I have seen this before from HuK and didn't quite understand why he opened up with fast DTs. But with this guide, it is clear how it works and why it is so strong.
I think it's great that DTs are finally getting some burn as more than a gimmicky all-in unit. This build/general idea is all over the ladder right now and I use it almost every ladder PvP. It's even an interesting build in that your execution of the build means SO MUCH more than their ability to get an observer and kill a DT. DT vs DT is surprisingly fun :D.
One big, big thing that needs to be in big red letters about DTs is that it constantly makes them wary of leaving their base without leaving units behind and/or making cannons in their base. I've won a ton of games with this from people wanting to all-in, me walking in and killing 7-8 probes while their units are walking across the map and then their all-in being significantly weaker which allows me to keep my Nexus and still hold their attack.
I've also won a lot of games even after losing my Nexus with backstab attacks and just a more cost-efficient unit composition overall.
This is probably one of the best PvP builds in the world right now. People really should take notice if they are having a hard time in PvP.
Sidewinder, last I saw your stream, you opened only with one gate and chronoed 2z,1s from it and put on pressure. Any reason you prefer that opening over Cecil's 3 stalker rush?
How do you deal with a 2 collusus push with this build. I feel like I don't have enough units to defeat this. If I send a dt to his base he will have an obs and 2 lots and so he just pushes. I just don't seem to have enough units.
On June 01 2012 14:40 -MoOsE- wrote: How do you deal with a 2 collusus push with this build. I feel like I don't have enough units to defeat this. If I send a dt to his base he will have an obs and 2 lots and so he just pushes. I just don't seem to have enough units.
If your opponent doesn't take damage from dts, opened colossi, and does a well-executed 1 colossi push, you can't win.
On June 01 2012 14:40 -MoOsE- wrote: How do you deal with a 2 collusus push with this build. I feel like I don't have enough units to defeat this. If I send a dt to his base he will have an obs and 2 lots and so he just pushes. I just don't seem to have enough units.
If your opponent doesn't take damage from dts, opened colossi, and does a well-executed 1 colossi push, you can't win.
Really? Even if the chargelot/archon guy is on 1 base?
On June 01 2012 14:40 -MoOsE- wrote: How do you deal with a 2 collusus push with this build. I feel like I don't have enough units to defeat this. If I send a dt to his base he will have an obs and 2 lots and so he just pushes. I just don't seem to have enough units.
If your opponent doesn't take damage from dts, opened colossi, and does a well-executed 1 colossi push, you can't win.
Really? Even if the chargelot/archon guy is on 1 base?
Your best bet in the scenario of a one base colo allin is going to likely be a base trade. Dark templar + obs snipe can be quite favorable in a base trade scenario. Go for the robo fast.
If you hide your tech the chances of the opponent being able to play reactionary is lessened. As you get higher on the ladder keeping information from your opponent becomes more important. I have my build timed so an observer comes out just about as the opponent's observer should be at the edge of one of your bases. Try to snipe it before scouting can be achieved. You can also hide your dark shrine/tc on the map somewhere.
On June 01 2012 14:40 -MoOsE- wrote: How do you deal with a 2 collusus push with this build. I feel like I don't have enough units to defeat this. If I send a dt to his base he will have an obs and 2 lots and so he just pushes. I just don't seem to have enough units.
If your opponent doesn't take damage from dts, opened colossi, and does a well-executed 1 colossi push, you can't win.
Really? Even if the chargelot/archon guy is on 1 base?
you wont be able to muster an army large enough to deal with the colossus push, assuming he just goes straight to your base as soon as the colossus pops out of the robo. Like the guide says, you need a DT on the field to sneak in his base to try to get him to come back to his main to defend. If he doesnt, like cecil said, the only two options you have at that point is a base trade or observer snipe. Don't feel discouraged or anything if you lose to a blind colossus all in. That's just the weak part of this type of play style and it was a blind all in anyway.
Tried this on Cloud while offracing as P against a Top Diamond P who blink stalkered and got an obs. After the first 2 DTS did barely anything I transitioned into making about 3/4 archons and base traded bringing a probe with me, they can't ff their ramp so they are pretty boned in that scenario, I think if they go blink + obs trying to minimize damage while getting a sizeable archon zealot force up might be the best way of combating that, insofar as you will win any base race?