EPT[G]Zerg vs Terran A roach opener - Page 5
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Tanatos
United States381 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 28 2012 05:52 Tanatos wrote: Great build! So which ladder+tourney map do you prefer or not to use this build? Well right now I use it on all maps but I do a faster lair on maps like taldarim/shattered due to the far third bases and drops (koreans love to do these before mutalisks) can kill it due to the far distance, harder to defend. I have been thinking of possibly destroying the rocks though on the maps to either take the third, or on shattered take the little bit further base. Haven't decided on whats best. I wouldn't do this build though every single zvt I play though in a tournament, I would definitely mix it up don't want to be predictable  | ||
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Tanatos
United States381 Posts
On January 28 2012 05:58 blade55555 wrote: Well right now I use it on all maps but I do a faster lair on maps like taldarim/shattered due to the far third bases and drops (koreans love to do these before mutalisks) can kill it due to the far distance, harder to defend. I have been thinking of possibly destroying the rocks though on the maps to either take the third, or on shattered take the little bit further base. Haven't decided on whats best. I wouldn't do this build though every single zvt I play though in a tournament, I would definitely mix it up don't want to be predictable Thanks! I like this build because this build seem to crush mech style terran with early 200/200 rush. Well, just to be clear, what is your follow up agaisnt mech style? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 28 2012 06:08 Tanatos wrote: Thanks! I like this build because this build seem to crush mech style terran with early 200/200 rush. Well, just to be clear, what is your follow up agaisnt mech style? muta/roach/ling/bane but faster hive then I usually do for broodlords. With flanking manuevers as well works well vs mech if he does a 2 base push. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
-what do you do about hellion drops (roaches dont kill hellions particularly fast :/) -cant your roaches easily get isolated and killed by hellions if you have some running around the map (for mapcontrol)?l -if you use your roaches for mapcontrol, what do you have at home to defend against drops or simply hellions driving past your 1 crawler -how do you defend your early third vs banshee? -i dont see you mentioning an evo chamber anywhere, do you just take the risk of default losing to cloakbanshee? - not necessarily bad, but would be good to know. dont take it as hating, but some points seemed questionable to me. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 28 2012 06:43 DarKFoRcE wrote: -why do you get the spine(s) at 24/25 instead of 29/30? -what do you do about hellion drops (roaches dont kill hellions particularly fast :/) -cant your roaches easily get isolated and killed by hellions if you have some running around the map (for mapcontrol)?l -if you use your roaches for mapcontrol, what do you have at home to defend against drops or simply hellions driving past your 1 crawler -how do you defend your early third vs banshee? -i dont see you mentioning an evo chamber anywhere, do you just take the risk of default losing to cloakbanshee? - not necessarily bad, but would be good to know. dont take it as hating, but some points seemed questionable to me. Don't worry I won't take it as hating, constructive criticism, let alone any comments I welcome :D. For the spines, I am just dumb and get them to early I am actually going to change that lol thanks for pointing that out, since I used to never ever do spines and do earlier roaches never knew the timings of it :D. Well it really depends. If he has a ton of hellions I will make the appropriate amount of roaches so that I can maintain map control while defending my natural. The only unit that can really threaten the roach early game is obviously the marauder being the huge one. But normally I will send my roaches out in 2 if there are 4 hellions out so that they don't pick off 1 at a time. Hellion drops I send roaches and if my roaches aren't in time I split drones so he can't kill much. I have a good sim city and 2 queens to block paths so they can't do that. I have it on the replays as well but I normally leave a couple roaches behind just for the fact of denying hellions on shooting my third or whatever. You can always analyze the replays I put see what I mean if I am not explaining it good enough on this part. Queens to defend vs banshee, if its vs cloaked banshee off of 2 base I have yet to encounter it and am going to be doing some practice games against that soon and will update the OP after I play vs it a few times. And no I normally do get an evo chamber either as part of my wall or just in case of banshee's. I guess I should put that in the BO, I just get it in random times normally before banshee's would come out of course but I do have an evo just incase of the cloaked banshee. Again I don't take it as hating if you were blindly calling it bad without any comments or something I would I always like good criticisms as it can also pin point weaknesses I may not have encountered and can test to see what I should do (or not do) . | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
while you can definitely hold it off, it all seems very very fragile to me :\ another thing that seems hard to defend against is the build that jjakji played against sen on daybreak (sen also played some build where he got a few roaches early on). due to all your tech being very late, you will fighting (hopefully already speed)ling (+maybe slow banes) and slow roaches against hellions + stimmed mariners + 2 medivacs. i can say from experience that thats something rather uncomfortable^^ (not saying its impossible to defend). | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 28 2012 08:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: yes of course you defend with queens against banshees, but not on every map your third is so close to the natural. i was thinking about reactor hellion -> 1 port banshee -> CC builds (or similar stuff). and there you have problems vs just a single banshee, and as your opponent should definitely be able to scout your early third, he will of course get a second banshee to apply more pressure. if you move your queens out of your natu/main to your third, then suddenly your wall there has a weakness to hellions driving in, together with the banshees that can just fly elsewhere and such. while you can definitely hold it off, it all seems very very fragile to me :\ another thing that seems hard to defend against is the build that jjakji played against sen on daybreak (sen also played some build where he got a few roaches early on). due to all your tech being very late, you will fighting (hopefully already speed)ling (+maybe slow banes) and slow roaches against hellions + stimmed mariners + 2 medivacs. i can say from experience that thats something rather uncomfortable^^ (not saying its impossible to defend). Well honestly if I see a banshee I am going to make another queen but yeah on maps like shattered/taldarim this build isn't the best just because of the rocks blocking the third. I don't play on the new maps so I can't comment on those but those 2 maps this build isn't the best on just again due to rocks. Yeah I face that hellions/stimmed marines and 2 medivacs a decent amount on korea. I actually have very little problem holding it off due to the roaches doing good vs the hellions and ling surround with a couple banelings. I'll try and upload a replay of it to showcase it vs that time to search! (I know you say not impossible but I have found its not to hard actually but I don't know if he did the exact same version of marine/hellion that jjakji did vs sen as I didn't see that game xD). Here is a replay of someone doing that 2 medivac stimmed marine/hellion drop. I imagine this is the build you are talking about? http://www.mediafire.com/?g4ovsb1yxqx2voo (was able to surround after I saw). | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory. Offtopic, but how to you stop this drop. Every game I target medivac with 3 queens but my speedlings get melted. It also feels unscoutable. I dunno if he's building a cc in base or starport in base. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On January 28 2012 09:19 T.O.P. wrote: Offtopic, but how to you stop this drop. Every game I target medivac with 3 queens but my speedlings get melted. It also feels unscoutable. I dunno if he's building a cc in base or starport in base. if you have ling speed researched, you should have the usual 8-10 lings to speed hellion runbyes and if he goes for the really fast drop it should be without reactor hellion, in which case you should be able to fight his hellions offcreep - and keep some mapvision/mapcontrol. in any case, it really helps to have some creep between natu/main and in your main. if you dont have enough lings yet (once you see him approaching you obviously only build lings) you have to wait till he elevators everything and engage on creep. if you have creep at the elevator position or nearby, you can engage with all queens focusing the medivac and your lings after he has unloaded the first set of units and just loaded in the second set (meaning he cant load in the units on the highground and not all other units are unloaded yet) if you go for the roach build described here, its probably just game over. another reason why i dont like roach builds with late speed ;D | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On January 28 2012 11:50 DarKFoRcE wrote: if you have ling speed researched, you should have the usual 8-10 lings to speed hellion runbyes and if he goes for the really fast drop it should be without reactor hellion, in which case you should be able to fight his hellions offcreep - and keep some mapvision/mapcontrol. in any case, it really helps to have some creep between natu/main and in your main. if you dont have enough lings yet (once you see him approaching you obviously only build lings) you have to wait till he elevators everything and engage on creep. if you have creep at the elevator position or nearby, you can engage with all queens focusing the medivac and your lings after he has unloaded the first set of units and just loaded in the second set (meaning he cant load in the units on the highground and not all other units are unloaded yet) if you go for the roach build described here, its probably just game over. another reason why i dont like roach builds with late speed ;D Usually he has 8 marine, 4 hellion and one medivac. I have no idea it's coming until the medivac comes. I feel like I can't stop it unless I have 25 lings, which is a incredibly high amount at that point in the game. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
I was wondering, blade, as I re read your post: why do you favor spines and later roaches against earlier roaches without spines? Have you tried both variations? cause I feel that earlier roaches would help to take an earlier third too (I personally have 4 roaches at 5:50, and can start a third around minut 6). | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 28 2012 18:57 Macpo wrote: just as a side note: 4 roaches kill a rock in 1 minut 20 sec; 5 roaches in 1 min... So I guess it's doable to kill rocks with roaches to get a close third, in most situations, provided he doesn't harass too much with helions... I was wondering, blade, as I re read your post: why do you favor spines and later roaches against earlier roaches without spines? Have you tried both variations? cause I feel that earlier roaches would help to take an earlier third too (I personally have 4 roaches at 5:50, and can start a third around minut 6). I used to do the roaches early and I found it actually was hurting my economy more then this way. I was only like 5-7 workers ahead of terran if I did roaches at a fast time. This method is much better economically. btw faced cloaked banshee off of 2 base and I had my third up by the time his cloaked banshee's came but he didn't even check there so I don't know if I would have had to cancel would have to check replay but I didn't die and kept my 3 bases but yeah going to do some testing with a friend soon on that for those curious. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On January 28 2012 19:15 blade55555 wrote: I used to do the roaches early and I found it actually was hurting my economy more then this way. I was only like 5-7 workers ahead of terran if I did roaches at a fast time. This method is much better economically. btw faced cloaked banshee off of 2 base and I had my third up by the time his cloaked banshee's came but he didn't even check there so I don't know if I would have had to cancel would have to check replay but I didn't die and kept my 3 bases but yeah going to do some testing with a friend soon on that for those curious. yeah I am curious tell us when testing is done! thanks for the reply | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On January 28 2012 17:25 T.O.P. wrote: Usually he has 8 marine, 4 hellion and one medivac. I have no idea it's coming until the medivac comes. I feel like I can't stop it unless I have 25 lings, which is a incredibly high amount at that point in the game. is this against a factory with or without reactor? against non reactor factory you should not give up mapcontrol imo and fight his hellions offcreep. this also means you should see him moving out, which gives you plenty of time to prepare. i know this might sound weird, as i always argue against trying to chase away the hellions early. but against single hellion production you make it too easy for the terran if you dont fight against them. remember, if terran doesnt have mapcontrol, he also has to be more afraid of possible roach + x allins coming (because he doesnt see them coming). plus you can spread creep freely and can take a third at any time. the only cost is that you build a few more lings. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
I dont get the early spine tho. I personally find that the roaches are good enough, and I used the 100 min + that drone for more droning. Vs cloaked banshee - I find that when I roach poke (while leaving 2-3 roaches at home for helion runbys) The roaches banging at the front door, 99% of the time, force the terran to show them to you there, because the terran uses them for defense. ----> make 2 - 4 more queens + thown down the evo. And I haev been able to stop banshee's every time. ^_^ EDIT: In my match ups I have found that roach ling bling + your queens to snipe medivacts do a great job vs elevator drops. BLade. What are you OL timings after 28? do you make two at a time, each time you get near supply capped? | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Not really sure of any other disadvantages I can think of at the moment but those are the 2 that pop off in my head. I think you left out the fact that you made roaches and they are a godawful unit that costs a lot of resources. Speaking as a Terran here, I feel like your build works a lot because roach aggression is really good so if you see 3-5 roaches you might panic and overreact in your defense which is probably not a good idea against a fast 3rd. But in general this strategy just isn't very good. Roaches cost a lot and they are shitey. Some Zergs are magic and can make defensive roaches work really well (Nerchio comes to mind) and they use the roaches and the roach warren as part of a longer term plan (again, Nerchio does this so well and it's quite amazing) but in general Roaches are a very bad unit defensively. Super good aggressively though T_T The main disadvantages with this style are a weakness to Terrans who are being really greedy (because you've cut a lot of drones to get out a bunch of roaches which you can't really do anything with unless he's playing mech), Terrans who make banshees (Roaches can't shoot up and GL getting a 3rd up with banshees out) and Terrans who just ignore the fact you made roaches and still hit you with a super strong timing + maybe a few marauders (depending on what the openings were etc). I play a ton of TvZ on korea (high masters, rarely vs GM) and they almost never do defensive roaches like this because if they do they die to all the dipshit aggressive Terrans. If they make roaches, they make them to attack. This is also the main trend in really high level TvZ. I think a really solid example of just how bad roaches are defensively is Sen vs Jiakji in this season's Code S. Game 1 on Dual site. Sen opens roach, jiakji makes banshees and does a really simple push and Sen's defensive roaches are so goddamn bad he gets obliterated. Sure you could find all sorts of reasons why Sen got crushed but to me the roaches are a big reason. I guess for a lot of lower league players then it's ok cuz you're playing against shitty Terrans who don't know what they're doing, and this is a simple, clear and effective strategy so I endorse that aspect. | ||
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iglocska
Norway589 Posts
This build sounds like a really cool solution for my problem though | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 29 2012 03:25 iaguz wrote: I think you left out the fact that you made roaches and they are a godawful unit that costs a lot of resources. Speaking as a Terran here, I feel like your build works a lot because roach aggression is really good so if you see 3-5 roaches you might panic and overreact in your defense which is probably not a good idea against a fast 3rd. But in general this strategy just isn't very good. Roaches cost a lot and they are shitey. Some Zergs are magic and can make defensive roaches work really well (Nerchio comes to mind) and they use the roaches and the roach warren as part of a longer term plan (again, Nerchio does this so well and it's quite amazing) but in general Roaches are a very bad unit defensively. Super good aggressively though T_T The main disadvantages with this style are a weakness to Terrans who are being really greedy (because you've cut a lot of drones to get out a bunch of roaches which you can't really do anything with unless he's playing mech), Terrans who make banshees (Roaches can't shoot up and GL getting a 3rd up with banshees out) and Terrans who just ignore the fact you made roaches and still hit you with a super strong timing + maybe a few marauders (depending on what the openings were etc). I play a ton of TvZ on korea (high masters, rarely vs GM) and they almost never do defensive roaches like this because if they do they die to all the dipshit aggressive Terrans. If they make roaches, they make them to attack. This is also the main trend in really high level TvZ. I think a really solid example of just how bad roaches are defensively is Sen vs Jiakji in this season's Code S. Game 1 on Dual site. Sen opens roach, jiakji makes banshees and does a really simple push and Sen's defensive roaches are so goddamn bad he gets obliterated. Sure you could find all sorts of reasons why Sen got crushed but to me the roaches are a big reason. I guess for a lot of lower league players then it's ok cuz you're playing against shitty Terrans who don't know what they're doing, and this is a simple, clear and effective strategy so I endorse that aspect. Err I don't make a ton of roaches I don't get upgrades for them and I heavily disagree with roaches being a bad defensive unit. I play a ton of high masters with the occasional gm terrans as well and I don't die early game due to roaches. If I ever die to an aggressive push its either I engaged like an idiot or I supply capped myself, never because I made roaches. I have been going early roaches since beta but this more refined version for the past month or so. Do note if you read the whole OP you would notice most of my army is still ling/bane. Also I can tell you didn't read the OP because like a guy in here who claimed I did this vs Na terrans no I play exclusively korean server and thats it. So if high masters/gm kr terrans are shitty I don't know what to say. But again you should probably read the whole guide and on how many roaches i make, how I use them, and what my unit composition is. From reading your post it sounds like you think I am commiting to roaches by making a ton when I make 4-6 and that is it unless terran is going mech. That's not a ton and works really well to maintain map control and again get a third ^^. I don't remember sen vs jjajki would have to see what he did but I am pretty sure he didn't just make 4 from the sound of it he made a lot. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
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